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Guest2627
( )

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  16:10:52  Reply with Quote
Dissclaimer. The only goal of this thread is to discuss the way things turned out. Not to debate every possible senario or what coulda, shoulda or might of happened.

Things tend to evolve and as it turned out that trade for Boston has evolved into two decent forwards in Reilly Smith and Louie Eriksson, A good prospect defenceman in Hamilton and Joe Morrow and a minor leaguer in Jared Knight.

Toronto of course has in my opinion a top 5 forward in the NHL. Phil Kessel has for all intention, has delievered for the Maple leafs.

so im almost scared to ask, but knowing how things ARE do you think its still a good deal for A. Toronto or B. Boston

Guest2681
( )

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  09:31:04  Reply with Quote
As much as those players are good pieces, id take kessel as it stands right now.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  10:15:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think you have to be careful when looking at deals like this and what they become. Let me give you an example. IF the Leafs traded JVR today to the Ducks for the Ducks 4th round pick, it would be a terrible trade. Now, if with that pick, the Leafs landed the next Datsyuk with a lucky selection, the trade may look great down the road. However, JVR for a 4th, regardless of what that 4th becomes, is a terrible deal.

My point is, personally, i think you need to look at the deal as Kessel for 2 firsts and a 2nd. That's was a pretty hefty price at the time, considering the team Toronto was. Now, like Burke, i didn't think the Leafs would be as bad as they were and end up getting the 2nd overall pick, however, it was always a possibility AND there was a good chance that pick would be in the 4-7 range anyway.

To answer your question as to which team this is a good deal for, i'd say Toronto. However, that's taking into account that the Bruins, imo, made a big mistake in dealing Seguin so quickly. I wouldn't trade Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for Kessel today, but i would Smith, Eriksson, etc.

I never thought i'd say it, but this trade has gone from me thinking Burke got completely hosed, to "it's pretty even". Give it another year and i might be saying "the Leafs won". However, looking back at the original deal, i'm not sure i like it from a Leaf standpoint.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  20:38:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I said it from day one.....and argues for months.....Toronto won this trade with kessel. Many here ( about 90 % i`d say ) said i was absolutely wrong, maybe they don`t think i was so wrong these days ....Toronto`s offence goes has kessel goes, he is that important to the leafs.

I know this is a kessel thread but....

I made a statement last season that the Oilers were so stupid not to give Ottawa what they wanted for Ben Bishop and some Oiler fans told me i was wrong... Bishop wasn`t an upgrade....wonder what they think now ?

I almost got eaten by some Ottawa fans when i said the Sens should trade Anderson when he was red hot and received maximum return....keeping R. Len and Bishop has their main stays...wonder what they think now ?.....can u imagine what the Sens could have gotten for Anderson ( from a cup contender ) during those few months when opposing players couldn`t get a B- B past him ??......compared to his return right now ?....they missed out big time.........so they lost Ben Bishop who may be the next coming and kept Anderson who is what, 34- 35 years old ?.....to achieve what ??....are they cup contenders in Andersons 2-3 remaining top years ??...i don`t think so....stupid GM..........is this the same GM who signed Redden and let Chara walk ??....not sure but i would bet on it
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Guest4463
( )

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  09:28:17  Reply with Quote
I have always said Toronto.

Mostly because it is hard to land top-dollar players nowadays in general. Trading lots of mid-level players for one superstar is a sure bet as long as your scouts are good at figuring out which prospects have the best chance of prospering. Phaneuf's no Chara, but people all thought Toronto got hosed on that trade too as he's expensive and doesn't score like he used to. But all 2-3 (?) people they sent to Calgary as mid-range names at best (Stemp, Hagman, Ian White?) while if Toronto knows its system depth, it's fair to say THOSE roles can be easily filled by youngsters - while Kessel and Pahnuef's roles, while pirce tags, cannot so easily be acquired.

I'm sure the Leafs are happy to have JVR now too. He's a beast (this year)
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Guest8014
( )

Posted - 02/06/2014 :  22:42:03  Reply with Quote
they always say a bird in the hand (kessel) is worth two in the bush (first round picks). Would the leafs be that much better with Hamilton and seguin? probably not.....not the way Toronto develops its young picks. for them its probably worth paying the high draft pick price for a 30 goal man. burke was highly criticized at the time but at least he took a gamble to get a star. could you imagine how they would have finished without kessel that season. maybe they would have done worse and got to pick first overall. if it were taylor hall instead of seguin, who would win that trade? I guess that's a whole other debate!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2014 :  10:01:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
not sure guest....hall has 20 goals this season....kessel has 30.....i think kessel is doing ok.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  10:08:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i love what Kessel has brought to Toronto since he's been here, and it's been great watching him continuously develop year after year to become the player he is today. however......

it is very tough to argue in favor of Toronto when all Boston has to do is look down at that nice Stanley Cup ring on their fingers. fact is they won it with Seguin and without Kessel.
if i'm a Boston fan that would be my argument, and it would be pretty tough to argue against it.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  15:29:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK Gipper, thats great for Boston...congrats to them.

Heres a question from a leaf perspective.......if the leafs DIDN`T make the kessel trade and kept those picks.....

Question......Would the Toronto Maple Leafs have won a stanley cup without the trade ???

If the answer is NO ( obviously ) what difference does Boston`s Stanley cup win make to the leafs ??

Boston`s stanley cup win is irrelevant to Toronto. The leafs made that deal to better their own hockey team.....this is the ONLY concern to the leafs regarding that trade.

Did they better their team ??...in my opinion they did. Toronto right now has one of the NHL`s TOP superstars who just keeps getting better and better. I argued this point for 2 years on the kessel thread and 90 % of all leaf fans here disagreed with me.

Almost 60 games into the regular season kessel is 4 th in NHL scoring, only 2 points out of second....he is 2nd to only Ovie in goal production, over 30 goals already.

If kessel finishes in the top 10 in scoring this season...this will be his 3rd consecutive season to do so.....3 years in a row finishing in the top 10 in scoring in the best league in the world ain`t too shabby.

Do you know when the leafs last had a player to finish in the top 10 in league scoring for 3 consecutive years ??? ........( .no it wasn`t Sundin )......if not i`ll tell you.....D. Sittler, back in the 1970`s....not bad company for kessel to be in..
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  16:42:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
not arguing with anything you're saying Duke. everything you mentioned about Kessel's time in Toronto is spot on. i don't disagree.
but this thread was opened to discuss "the way things turned out." turns out we got ourselves a consistent top 10 scorer. it also turns out that Boston won the Stanley Cup, made the Cup finals again 2 years later, and are a Cup threat again this year.

let me ask you this....if we (Toronto) made a trade that helped us win the Stanley Cup, but one of the assets we traded away ended up being the next Sidney Crosby, wouldn't you agree (and argue with others) that we won the trade? i sure as heck would!
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Guest2080
( )

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  19:50:24  Reply with Quote
Toronto's cup equity went from 1% to like 5% with the Kessel trade. It's entirely possible Seguin alone is better than Kessel in the next 3 years, plus he plays a more valuable position (top line center). Dougie Hamilton is a stud. Not sure who they drafted second round but long-term Boston won, but it's not a super slam dunk because Kessel is legit. Boston still set up to win more cups for the duration of Kessels career though,
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  00:08:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gipper / Duke.....some great points made.

Gipper, I too don't fully agree with the theory that Boston can automatically claim victory just because they won a cup. Let's say Toronto wins 5 in the next 10 years and Kessel is a big part of it. Would Boston still think they won the trade? Here's the thing, as a long time suffering Canucks fan, I personally would trade ANYTHING if it meant a cup, even if it was only one cup! However, here's what I'm getting at. If Vancouver traded Bo Horvat, Hunter Shinkaruk and their next 3 first rounders for Chris Kreider, then went on to win the cup, only to see Shinkaruk become the next Brett Hull and 2 of the first's end up being top 10 players, I wouldn't claim they won the trade. Won a cup, yes, but won the trade? NO.

Duke....I'd agree the Leafs are better today for this trade. However, part of that is due to the fact that Seguin and Hamilton are still so young. Sure, Kessel is not a dinosaur, but these two guys are 4 or 5 years younger. Question is, are the Leafs a serious enough contender in the next 3 years (when Kessel is arguably in his prime) or would they have been better off with Seguin and Hamilton as a bigger part of a bigger rebuild. Sure, you never know how things would have gone with them over Kessel and who they'd have drafted when, but for argument's sake, Sequin, Hamilton along with Gardiner, Rielly, etc would be a pretty nice core, especially on D!

Like I said earlier, this trade, due to Kessel's play over the past couple seasons, has begrudgingly made me feel that Burke didn't get hosed like I originally thought, however, it's looking better for the Leafs than I first though. Still think it's edge to Boston, but very slightly at best. Oh, and I don't think the Sequin to Dallas trade was a good one for Boston. I know they got Morrow and Smith, along with others in the deal, but I still don't think they got enough.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  09:11:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I said it from day one.....and argues for months.....Toronto won this trade with kessel. Many here ( about 90 % i`d say ) said i was absolutely wrong, maybe they don`t think i was so wrong these days ....Toronto`s offence goes has kessel goes, he is that important to the leafs.

I know this is a kessel thread but....

I made a statement last season that the Oilers were so stupid not to give Ottawa what they wanted for Ben Bishop and some Oiler fans told me i was wrong... Bishop wasn`t an upgrade....wonder what they think now ?

I almost got eaten by some Ottawa fans when i said the Sens should trade Anderson when he was red hot and received maximum return....keeping R. Len and Bishop has their main stays...wonder what they think now ?.....can u imagine what the Sens could have gotten for Anderson ( from a cup contender ) during those few months when opposing players couldn`t get a B- B past him ??......compared to his return right now ?....they missed out big time.........so they lost Ben Bishop who may be the next coming and kept Anderson who is what, 34- 35 years old ?.....to achieve what ??....are they cup contenders in Andersons 2-3 remaining top years ??...i don`t think so....stupid GM..........is this the same GM who signed Redden and let Chara walk ??....not sure but i would bet on it



Hindsight being always 20/20 Duke, Anderson may have been a good trade candidate if they had known how Bishop was going to turn out. Lehner to this point of the season does not have a winning record and Anderson does. Anderson can win in the shootout and Lehner can't. The point last year was Ottawa lost 5 regulars to injury before Anderson went down and you were suggesting trading Anderson while he was injured, leaving Ottawa with a lowered value and no veteran goaltender should Ottawa make the playoffs. Remind me, wasn't that Toronto's mistake last playoffs?

The trade for Kessel wasn't wrong, but Boston at the time won the trade. They got Sequin at 2nd, who is similar in stats to Kessel and can play in more game situations and positions than Kessel at a much reduced pay rate, let alone all the other players and intangibles that Boston received due to this trade (cup win, 2nd SCF appearance vs 47 year drought and 1 - 7 game playoff run)

Enjoy!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4593 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  11:32:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I said it from day one.....and argues for months.....Toronto won this trade with kessel. Many here ( about 90 % i`d say ) said i was absolutely wrong, maybe they don`t think i was so wrong these days ....Toronto`s offence goes has kessel goes, he is that important to the leafs.

I know this is a kessel thread but....

I made a statement last season that the Oilers were so stupid not to give Ottawa what they wanted for Ben Bishop and some Oiler fans told me i was wrong... Bishop wasn`t an upgrade....wonder what they think now ?

I almost got eaten by some Ottawa fans when i said the Sens should trade Anderson when he was red hot and received maximum return....keeping R. Len and Bishop has their main stays...wonder what they think now ?.....can u imagine what the Sens could have gotten for Anderson ( from a cup contender ) during those few months when opposing players couldn`t get a B- B past him ??......compared to his return right now ?....they missed out big time.........so they lost Ben Bishop who may be the next coming and kept Anderson who is what, 34- 35 years old ?.....to achieve what ??....are they cup contenders in Andersons 2-3 remaining top years ??...i don`t think so....stupid GM..........is this the same GM who signed Redden and let Chara walk ??....not sure but i would bet on it



Hindsight being always 20/20 Duke, Anderson may have been a good trade candidate if they had known how Bishop was going to turn out. Lehner to this point of the season does not have a winning record and Anderson does. Anderson can win in the shootout and Lehner can't. The point last year was Ottawa lost 5 regulars to injury before Anderson went down and you were suggesting trading Anderson while he was injured, leaving Ottawa with a lowered value and no veteran goaltender should Ottawa make the playoffs. Remind me, wasn't that Toronto's mistake last playoffs?

The trade for Kessel wasn't wrong, but Boston at the time won the trade. They got Sequin at 2nd, who is similar in stats to Kessel and can play in more game situations and positions than Kessel at a much reduced pay rate, let alone all the other players and intangibles that Boston received due to this trade (cup win, 2nd SCF appearance vs 47 year drought and 1 - 7 game playoff run)

Enjoy!



Boston at the time did not win the trade, I'll argue that til I'm blue in the face. Seguin did not get that cup win - the whole team did. We can only speculate if Boston would have won that cup with Kessel instead of Seguin for half the games . . . my guess is that they would have won it.

Even at that time OF THE TRADE (note: before Boston's inevitable Cup Win), everyone including Boston fans said that it would only become a win for Boston in the future - when the picks (Seguin and Hamilton) matured.

Since they picked Seguin and Hamilton, everyone and his brother said Seguin would be at least as good as Kessel, and that Hamilton might turn into a stud d-man.

Seguin was traded for being a problem - terrible work ethic and partying habits, lazy attitude guy who also happened to have great skill. And for being a bad defensive player.

(remarkably similar reason as to why they dumped Phil Kessel, btw)

Hamilton hasn't turned into much at all yet - still might be early though.

It's still a win for Kessel, IMHO.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  12:49:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does there always have to be a 'single' winner in a hockey trade? Or, can there be a situation (such as this, in my opinion), where both teams make out just fine?

If you ask me, both teams seemed to receive exactly what they wanted. Boston got the picks/players they felt would help them recoup the loss of a guy like Kessel, while Toronto received the scoring winger they so desired. And to date, Kessel has shown he's the player Toronto hoped for.

Now, looking at it... can we say Boston won? I mean, perhaps even Boston don't feel they won the trade. They did in fact, trade Seguin away already. Maybe that speaks for it self?

But if you were to ask me.. I'd not pick a clear winner. It seems both teams got what they wanted from the deal.

Irvine/prez.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4593 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  17:43:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by irvine

Does there always have to be a 'single' winner in a hockey trade? Or, can there be a situation (such as this, in my opinion), where both teams make out just fine?

If you ask me, both teams seemed to receive exactly what they wanted. Boston got the picks/players they felt would help them recoup the loss of a guy like Kessel, while Toronto received the scoring winger they so desired. And to date, Kessel has shown he's the player Toronto hoped for.

Now, looking at it... can we say Boston won? I mean, perhaps even Boston don't feel they won the trade. They did in fact, trade Seguin away already. Maybe that speaks for it self?

But if you were to ask me.. I'd not pick a clear winner. It seems both teams got what they wanted from the deal.

Irvine/prez.



I mostly agree, actually.

It's just that . . . I'm a Leafs fan, I hate (although greatly respect) Boston as a team . . . and I'm forced somewhat to lean towards a Leaf win.

But you're right - Boston, in their situation, made out VERY well for an expiring contract who they knew would be pricy and likely to sign elsewhere.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2014 :  20:39:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!!!!!

I know I'm kind of in the minority here, but what the hell, I'll give it another go with a brief 3 point analysis.

1. We have been instructed by the esteemed Guest 2627 to discuss "the way things turned out."
2. The way things turned out, from the Bruin's perspective (thinking positively), is that in 2011 Tyler Seguin made an important contribution to the Bruins at a key time in their successful Cup run.
3. The other way things turned out, again from the Bruins perspective, is that the trade:
(a) helped create cap space prior to the 2010-2011 season which helped them get Horton, Peverley and Kelly, all key contributors to their succesful Cup run - Horton in particular of course (someone please fact-check me on this as, remember, I'm semi-retired from hockey fandom now), and
(b) helped lead to the Bs getting some pretty good hockey players in Eriksson and Smith (even forgetting Hamilton, etc.)

I don't know, call me a nutso, cuckoo, wacko and insane over-the-hill B's fan, but as Howie Meeker used to say GEEPERS, I am really glad the Bs made that trade.
)

Now let loose. But let's see how many of you can do it without hypotheticals.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  13:26:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Blah blah blah blah blah blah BLAH!!

CROCK'S BACK, and he's HUNGRY BOYS!!!!

Guest2627 - I invite you to look at the infamous "Kessel Trade Pt.1" 13 page epic monster thread that very literally took over all of our lives for a brief period between roughly April 2011 to November 2013. Like, seriously. I am so absolutely beat down tired from that epic debate that I am not even going to get into it here.

But I think it's pretty clear who won that trade. Although, I cannot believe how many people are ACTUALLY claiming they have been saying that all along. WHERE WE YOU GUYS LIKE 2 YEARS AGO??????

The fact is, The Duke and I - are the ONLY ones who have been saying it all along. Everybody else said the Bruins won it. All of the rest of you wannabes who are signing in as "guests" and "claiming I-told-you-so" status about Kessel being an absolute beast and Toronto winning the trade are... Nah ah. You do not get that status. Sorry. Refer to epic debate page 1-13 (come to think of it, these wannabes guests are probably Bean and Nuxfan and are too embarrassed to realize by just HOW wrong they were... but I digress.).

Besides, your question is still wrong. Right now? Well, clearly Toronto won the trade. Kessel is the 2nd leading goal-scorer in the NHL; 4th in points. He has... what? 27 points in his last 15 games? The Leafs are 13-2-2 to finish off before the Olympic break. Phil Kessel has 5 Game-winners and 227 SOG. And for all of you Nuxfans out there: he's even a plus 1 too. (PS - where are the Sedins these days??).

But again. The question is STILL wrong. The question is: How will this trade end up? Myself, and the Duke, have been saying it until we are (Leaf) blue in the face. The Leafs won the trade, and Phil Kessel rules. When the Leafs finish fourth in the East, and go on to the Conference Finals this season, you will remember us.



Actually, the REAL question is: WHERE ARE ALL YOU KESSEL HATERS NOW?? WHERE HAVE YOU ALL BEEN HIDING???? Do you weep at home at night underneath the covers of your Canucks' duvet every time Kessel scores yet another beauty of a goal?? Do you angrily throw down the remote when SportsCentre keeps showing Phil Kessel highlights over and over again because there are just so many of them?? Do you cry in the shower??



Phil "The Thrill" Kessel. My MAN. He is just rolling now. The Duke and I said so. And now you are watching the pain. Enjoy the next three years gentlemen. Because Phil Kessel is JUST GETTING STARTED. Leafs won this trade. Good night, and sleep tight. Keep the box of Kleenex next to your pillow.

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Guest2080
( )

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  17:20:07  Reply with Quote
Boston cups won since Trade: 1. Leafs playoff series wins since trade.....

People don't have to be kessel 'haters' to think that it was a dumb trade, and it's still not clear whose won because the young pieces the leafs "would" have had are still developing. Kessel has realistically improved their chances of winning a round or two, but let's be honest the leafs are hardly a cup contender.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  20:41:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, well, well, Kessel gets hot, and look who shows up? Welcome back Crock. It's been pretty quiet around here lately, especially due to Beans' absence, but fear not, you've been missed too. I sure wouldn't be as suspect about your timing if it wasn't for this recent tear that your boy Kessel has been on! Where were you in Nov when he had a huge 6pts in 13 games??? Or during the mid Dec - mid Jan period where he had 6pts in the 11 games preceding this hot streak? Just curious really.

Oh, btw, being +1 when you've scored almost 2pts/game over this run is nothing to be too excited about. That just means he's either padding his stats with PP goals (lord knows he can't be getting shorties with his precious butt sitting on the bench watching the pk ), or his line is more or less breaking even in the goals for and against department. In fairness to King Phil, I will concede that +/- is a team stat of sorts and most of the top scorers from bad teams are either a minus, or close to it like Phil. As for the Sedin's, I'm not sure what they have to do with this thread, but i'll bite and answer your question. They're not doing well at all. Happy? I'm sure you are, but again, THAT has no bearing whatsoever on what's being discussed here as they were nothing to do with the trade at hand.

Lemme ask you something......you said "When the Leafs finish fourth in the East, and go on to the Conference Finals this season, you will remember us."? Umm, is that what you and Leaf nation is striving for? A fourth place finish and a semifinal appearance? Wow, shame you're not Sharks fans, you'd be the happiest bunch ever over your team's performance for the past decade!!!

While I don't consider myself a "Kessel Hater", I will admit that at the time of the original thread I called it a landslide win for Boston. Keep in mind the very important points brought up by Andyhack just prior to your comedic diatribe and you may understand why. However, if you read this thread, I conceded that the way it's turned out to this point, it's looking quite even. However, you say to sit back with our boxes of Kleenex for the next 3 years as Kessel is just getting started? Did I miss something? Have Seguin and Hamilton peaked? Is there no chance that Seguin becomes a PPG center that Toronto has sorely missed? What if Boston wins another cup? Heck, what if Dallas does??? Assuming the Leafs carry on satisfying their faithful with 4th place conference finishes and semifinal appearances, I guess it won't matter?

Lastly, I had a good chuckle at your comment about whether or not the haters cry under their Canuck duvets "every time Kessel scores yet another beauty of a goal". Lol, I have to say, NO. Thing is, he's scored some nice ones, but not a lot of them are of the "beauty" variety. Nothing wrong with that, they all count as 1 on the scoreboard, but I'm not about to say he scores a lot of really pretty goals compared to some of the other snipers in the league. Then again, maybe I've just been spoiled by getting to watch the Sedin's perform their magic this past 6 or 7 years?

ETA....Forgot to mention, if the Leafs are to go on to the semi's or even further in the next few years, my money is on Bernier being the reason! A team can't continue to get outshot as bad as Toronto does daily and expect to go deep in the playoffs, unless they have a goalie who gets in a zone at the right time!

Edited by - Alex116 on 02/13/2014 21:11:47
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2014 :  19:33:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL.

Well played Alex. Well played. I missed you too. :)

I have to admit that I only come back to this website every now and again to see what the status of our little Kessel debate is.

I am absolutely LOVING Phil Kessel this season - I seriously cannot get enough. I think that his exemplary play coupled with this massive debate have turned me into a Leafs' Fan!! LOL. Seriously though, they are a fun team to watch; and Kessel is an extremely exciting player.

I don't understand why Kessel generates so much controversy. Everyone talks about Rick Nash, Jeff Carter, the Sedins... I had this guy telling me the other day that Brad Marchand was more valuable to his team than Phil Kessel. What???? I don't get it. Does nobody watch Hockey or look at stats anymore? Man, watching Phil Kessel play this season (vs. Tyler Seguin minus his 5-point night), has been absolutely stunning. He's a Top 5 player in the League! He has more points than Patrick Kane for crying out loud!! He's second in goal-scoring. Oh man. Whatever. This has gone so far away from a debate that I don't even have to say anything. JUST WATCH ONE GAME OF HOCKEY PEOPLE.

...And how about yet another hattrick against the Slovenians?? I mean, the guy is on a tear. Let's show him some respect here. To Phil Kessel!!

Now, having said that. Canada will most likely be playing the USA in the Semi-Finals Game. I am very, very worried. This does not bode well for Canada at all. The US - and Phil Kessel - look like they are rolling right now. I put Canada's chances at below 50%. Very worried indeed...
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2014 :  17:50:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you Crock on the Canada vs USA comments. I just wrote the same thing in another thread. I feel that Canada is behind in net, plus the USA have a very speedy team.

I would put % odds at USA 55 %....Canada 45 %....mostly because of goaltending.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2014 :  17:53:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
p.s...i hope i`m dead wrong and Canada blows them out of the water but.....see what happens.

Really when you look at it, Canada has only played one strong team ( on paper anyway )....Finland....and that went into OT.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2014 :  09:14:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, we think a lot alike.

I had the odds at 58% for the States, 42% for the Canadians (John Tavares being out brings us down a couple of percent).

The Canadians better start Subban. If they don't and they play Hamhuis instead; I'm going to have a conniption.

"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2014 :  14:30:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock! Seems your boy Phil has a sister who's just like him. She just experienced a massive choke job like her bro's team did in the playoffs last year!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

As for Subban, i agree, he should be in there over Hamhuis(see Sochi thread).
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Guest1725
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Posted - 02/27/2014 :  07:38:25  Reply with Quote
How hopeful all Leaf fans are!

Granted, Kessel is playing well.

Seguin scores points on a regular basis - Kessel is streaky.

But it does come down to this: Kessel is an American.
Seguin, Hamilton and Knight are all Canadians.

Everyone should know you do not win Stanley Cups with American talent, it is with Canadian talent!

I do disagree with the point made earlier by Slozo (and others) that Doug Hamilton hasn't developed. Not developed? He has been playing with Chara for most of the season - a prospect does not play on Boston's 1st D-line.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2014 :  09:06:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 1725....kessel is on pace for 3 consecutive top 10 in the NHL scoring seasons. The last leaf to do this was D. Sittler during thev1970's.....now that is real streaky for sure

As for Hamilton playing alongside Chara....who can't play alongside Chara ?.....Chara can make ANY d-man in the entire NHL look great.

I'm not saying Hamilton isn't any good, don't get me wrong.....but it's hard to judge a players talent while playing with Chara because he is such a dominant player. I guess Hamilton will be truly judged one day when Chara retires and Hamilton has a more defined role.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2014 :  13:33:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Guest 1725....kessel is on pace for 3 consecutive top 10 in the NHL scoring seasons. The last leaf to do this was D. Sittler during thev1970's.....now that is real streaky for sure



So, it's the Leafs, as a whole, that are streaky?

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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Guest4006
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Posted - 02/27/2014 :  15:33:55  Reply with Quote
Guest 1725 I'm not sure if I agree with you that Tyler Sequin is less "streaky" than Phil Kessel.

Check out their game logs, and see for yourself:

Phil Kessel:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3983/gamelog/
Tyler Seguin:
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/4962/gamelog/

I don't much of a difference? Both players, not unlike a number of point-per-game players, are "streaky." There are very few players who are not "streaky" over a season, including Tyler Seguin.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2014 :  22:19:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

How hopeful all Leaf fans are!

Granted, Kessel is playing well.

Seguin scores points on a regular basis - Kessel is streaky.

But it does come down to this: Kessel is an American.
Seguin, Hamilton and Knight are all Canadians.

Everyone should know you do not win Stanley Cups with American talent, it is with Canadian talent!

I do disagree with the point made earlier by Slozo (and others) that Doug Hamilton hasn't developed. Not developed? He has been playing with Chara for most of the season - a prospect does not play on Boston's 1st D-line.



Most of this is ridiculous. Kessel is no more "streaky" than Seguin. The game log supplied will verify this if you've not yet looked. Streaky is a tricky word as most players aren't scoring or putting up points every game. Anyone could really be considered streaky.

The Canadian / American thing is crazy too. Chicago got huge contributions from Patrick Kane in both their cup wins. They may not have won either without him in fact! In 2010, he was 1 point behind Toews for the team lead in points in the playoffs. In 2013 he led the team in points in the playoffs.

The Kings won a cup recently as well I seem to recall? Who led their team in scoring during the cup run? Hmmm, Anze Kopitar with 20 pts, tied with Dustin Brown with 20 pts. A Slovenian and an American?

Hey, I'm Canadian and love Canadian players, but to claim you don't win with Americans is ridiculous. Sure, you can argue most teams have more Canadians and they're needed, but don't go telling me that a high end American talent like Kessel can't help a team win the cup.

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Guest1725
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Posted - 03/01/2014 :  07:36:59  Reply with Quote
Posted - 02/27/2014 : 22:19:07 quote:Originally posted by Guest1725

How hopeful all Leaf fans are!

Granted, Kessel is playing well.

Seguin scores points on a regular basis - Kessel is streaky.

But it does come down to this: Kessel is an American.
Seguin, Hamilton and Knight are all Canadians.

Everyone should know you do not win Stanley Cups with American talent, it is with Canadian talent!

I do disagree with the point made earlier by Slozo (and others) that Doug Hamilton hasn't developed. Not developed? He has been playing with Chara for most of the season - a prospect does not play on Boston's 1st D-line.


Most of this is ridiculous. Kessel is no more "streaky" than Seguin. The game log supplied will verify this if you've not yet looked. Streaky is a tricky word as most players aren't scoring or putting up points every game. Anyone could really be considered streaky.

The Canadian / American thing is crazy too. Chicago got huge contributions from Patrick Kane in both their cup wins. They may not have won either without him in fact! In 2010, he was 1 point behind Toews for the team lead in points in the playoffs. In 2013 he led the team in points in the playoffs.

The Kings won a cup recently as well I seem to recall? Who led their team in scoring during the cup run? Hmmm, Anze Kopitar with 20 pts, tied with Dustin Brown with 20 pts. A Slovenian and an American?

Hey, I'm Canadian and love Canadian players, but to claim you don't win with Americans is ridiculous. Sure, you can argue most teams have more Canadians and they're needed, but don't go telling me that a high end American talent like Kessel can't help a team win the cup.


Phil Kessel is streaky. The stats this year do not represent his whole career; in past seasons he has had many times of going many games without scoring a point. That is streaky.
A leopard changes his spots? Not likely... Kessel is having a good year, that is all.

Oh yeah, a team does need Canadian talent to win a Stanley Cup - Alex116 did not bother to check before spouting off.

Pittsburg, 2009 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2010 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Boston, 2011 - 16 Canadians (majority of team).
LA, 2012 - 14 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2013 - 10 Canadians.

A "high end talent like Kessel" can't help a team win a Stanley Cup. That is why did the Bruins got rid of him.
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Guest1725
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Posted - 03/01/2014 :  07:39:17  Reply with Quote
Apologies for double post.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2014 :  20:18:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

Phil Kessel is streaky. The stats this year do not represent his whole career; in past seasons he has had many times of going many games without scoring a point. That is streaky.
A leopard changes his spots? Not likely... Kessel is having a good year, that is all.


No, a leopard prob doesn't change his spots, however an NHL player is quite likely to change. Surely I need not make examples? But I will. Nazem Kadri was considered a bust not long ago. Look at him now. How about a guy like Jonathan Cheechoo? Did he change at all ever? Have a look at his stat line and tell me? How about Yakupov? From all reports out of Edmonton, he's actually learning to play D. So yes, guys can change, especially statistically which has everything to do with your claim that Kessel is "streaky". Seriously, look at any top scorer and you'll find they all have a few games where they get shut out. How is it that a guy, Kessel in this case, can't find more consistency as he matures and develops?

quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

Oh yeah, a team does need Canadian talent to win a Stanley Cup - Alex116 did not bother to check before spouting off.

Pittsburg, 2009 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2010 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Boston, 2011 - 16 Canadians (majority of team).
LA, 2012 - 14 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2013 - 10 Canadians.


Hmmmm, maybe you didn't read all the stuff I "spouted off" because if you did, you'd have seen where I said - "Sure, you can argue most teams have more Canadians and they're needed, but don't go telling me that a high end American talent like Kessel can't help a team win the cup."
Nice try though.

quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

A "high end talent like Kessel" can't help a team win a Stanley Cup. That is why the Bruins got rid of him.

Sorry, but this last statement is so ridiculous that you're either trolling to stir things up and create an argument, or you're more or less totally uneducated in the ways of hockey at the NHL level. Not only is that NOT the reason the Bruins traded him, I've already given you examples of "high end American talent" that has in fact helped teams win a cup.
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Guest9104
( )

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  06:25:09  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

Phil Kessel is streaky. The stats this year do not represent his whole career; in past seasons he has had many times of going many games without scoring a point. That is streaky.
A leopard changes his spots? Not likely... Kessel is having a good year, that is all.


No, a leopard prob doesn't change his spots, however an NHL player is quite likely to change. Surely I need not make examples? But I will. Nazem Kadri was considered a bust not long ago. Look at him now. How about a guy like Jonathan Cheechoo? Did he change at all ever? Have a look at his stat line and tell me? How about Yakupov? From all reports out of Edmonton, he's actually learning to play D. So yes, guys can change, especially statistically which has everything to do with your claim that Kessel is "streaky". Seriously, look at any top scorer and you'll find they all have a few games where they get shut out. How is it that a guy, Kessel in this case, can't find more consistency as he matures and develops?

quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

Oh yeah, a team does need Canadian talent to win a Stanley Cup - Alex116 did not bother to check before spouting off.

Pittsburg, 2009 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2010 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Boston, 2011 - 16 Canadians (majority of team).
LA, 2012 - 14 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2013 - 10 Canadians.


Hmmmm, maybe you didn't read all the stuff I "spouted off" because if you did, you'd have seen where I said - "Sure, you can argue most teams have more Canadians and they're needed, but don't go telling me that a high end American talent like Kessel can't help a team win the cup."
Nice try though.

quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

A "high end talent like Kessel" can't help a team win a Stanley Cup. That is why the Bruins got rid of him.

Sorry, but this last statement is so ridiculous that you're either trolling to stir things up and create an argument, or you're more or less totally uneducated in the ways of hockey at the NHL level. Not only is that NOT the reason the Bruins traded him, I've already given you examples of "high end American talent" that has in fact helped teams win a cup.



Wow Alex116 - I am uneducated at the NHL level! You pup!

When presented with facts (except the last part about Kessel can not help a team win a cup - he can play, but I think he still has a problem with the me/us thing, not a real team player needed to win a cup) you use sophistry to argue your points. It is the Canadian talent on teams that win the cup - not one or two players.

You are actually kinda funny for a young one.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4593 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  07:37:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1725

Posted - 02/27/2014 : 22:19:07 quote:Originally posted by Guest1725

How hopeful all Leaf fans are!

Granted, Kessel is playing well.

Seguin scores points on a regular basis - Kessel is streaky.

But it does come down to this: Kessel is an American.
Seguin, Hamilton and Knight are all Canadians.

Everyone should know you do not win Stanley Cups with American talent, it is with Canadian talent!

I do disagree with the point made earlier by Slozo (and others) that Doug Hamilton hasn't developed. Not developed? He has been playing with Chara for most of the season - a prospect does not play on Boston's 1st D-line.


Most of this is ridiculous. Kessel is no more "streaky" than Seguin. The game log supplied will verify this if you've not yet looked. Streaky is a tricky word as most players aren't scoring or putting up points every game. Anyone could really be considered streaky.

The Canadian / American thing is crazy too. Chicago got huge contributions from Patrick Kane in both their cup wins. They may not have won either without him in fact! In 2010, he was 1 point behind Toews for the team lead in points in the playoffs. In 2013 he led the team in points in the playoffs.

The Kings won a cup recently as well I seem to recall? Who led their team in scoring during the cup run? Hmmm, Anze Kopitar with 20 pts, tied with Dustin Brown with 20 pts. A Slovenian and an American?

Hey, I'm Canadian and love Canadian players, but to claim you don't win with Americans is ridiculous. Sure, you can argue most teams have more Canadians and they're needed, but don't go telling me that a high end American talent like Kessel can't help a team win the cup.


Phil Kessel is streaky. The stats this year do not represent his whole career; in past seasons he has had many times of going many games without scoring a point. That is streaky.
A leopard changes his spots? Not likely... Kessel is having a good year, that is all.

Oh yeah, a team does need Canadian talent to win a Stanley Cup - Alex116 did not bother to check before spouting off.

Pittsburg, 2009 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2010 - 15 Canadians (majority of team).
Boston, 2011 - 16 Canadians (majority of team).
LA, 2012 - 14 Canadians (majority of team).
Chicago, 2013 - 10 Canadians.

A "high end talent like Kessel" can't help a team win a Stanley Cup. That is why did the Bruins got rid of him.




Prove to me that Kessel is streaky.

Please note, this will take some work for you . . . you will have to not only go through the game logs and make a note of goalless and pointless streaks - but you'll have to do that for another, I don't know . . . maybe 15, 20 other of the best/top scoring forwards in the NHL. Then you'll be able to compare, after you do a statitical average of the other top scorers, and are able to compare Kessel against that average.

I've done the statistical analysis myself (last year I believe, but I've long ago lost which thread I posted it in) comparing Kessel to I think the top other three, maybe 5 players for goal scoring (the company he keeps). And I proved then that he already wasn't streaky compared to THEM . . . I only can imagine how great he compares to the 15th best scoring forward (who is bound to be streakier - when you have a Stamkos and Ovechkin scoring 60 goals, they totally bring up the average).

So, once again . . . prove it.

Give us FACTS. Not fiction.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  08:29:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9104
Wow Alex116 - I am uneducated at the NHL level! You pup!

When presented with facts (except the last part about Kessel can not help a team win a cup - he can play, but I think he still has a problem with the me/us thing, not a real team player needed to win a cup) you use sophistry to argue your points. It is the Canadian talent on teams that win the cup - not one or two players.

You are actually kinda funny for a young one.




Wow, you're on a roll.

Feel free to show me these facts that prove the following:
1. Where i said 1 or 2 players win the cup for a team
2. How it's the Canadian talent that wins the cup (your claim)


FWIW....hockey is a team game. NO 1 or 2 players win a cup for any team. No 1 or 2 players win even 1 single game for a team. A goalie can stand on his head and make 95 saves in a 1-0 shutout and you'll hear "he single handedly won that game for his team". It's a freakin' saying! Obviously someone scored that 1 goal. Even if somehow the goalie scored it, his team mates contributed in some way. Maybe it was by blocking the 96th shot, but that could have gone in and changed the game. See where i'm going with this? It's a team game.

It's funny that you accuse me of using sophistry when you say: A "high end talent like Kessel" can't help a team win a Stanley Cup. That is why did the Bruins got rid of him.
Lol.....have a look over that again. You'll prob make yourself laugh.

Anyway, get back to me when you show me proof of the 2 points above, maybe then i'll continue giving you the time of day in regards to your ridiculous claims.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2014 :  11:52:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

......But again. The question is STILL wrong. The question is: How will this trade end up? Myself, and the Duke, have been saying it until we are (Leaf) blue in the face. The Leafs won the trade, and Phil Kessel rules. When the Leafs finish fourth in the East, and go on to the Conference Finals this season, you will remember us.



Actually, the REAL question is: WHERE ARE ALL YOU KESSEL HATERS NOW?? WHERE HAVE YOU ALL BEEN HIDING???? Do you weep at home at night underneath the covers of your Canucks' duvet every time Kessel scores yet another beauty of a goal?? Do you angrily throw down the remote when SportsCentre keeps showing Phil Kessel highlights over and over again because there are just so many of them?? Do you cry in the shower??



Phil "The Thrill" Kessel. My MAN. He is just rolling now. The Duke and I said so. And now you are watching the pain. Enjoy the next three years gentlemen. Because Phil Kessel is JUST GETTING STARTED. Leafs won this trade. Good night, and sleep tight. Keep the box of Kleenex next to your pillow.





Crock ol' boy, where you at my friend? When I read that part bolded above, it seems to allow me to forget you. But I can't . In fact, I seem to remember when you popped in last time someone saying: "Well, well, well, Kessel gets hot, and look who shows up? Welcome back Crock. It's been pretty quiet around here lately, especially due to Beans' absence, but fear not, you've been missed too. I sure wouldn't be as suspect about your timing if it wasn't for this recent tear that your boy Kessel has been on! Where were you in Nov when he had a huge 6pts in 13 games??? Or during the mid Dec - mid Jan period where he had 6pts in the 11 games preceding this hot streak? Just curious really. Oh wait, that was me.
Seems Kessel's end of season stretch, has been pretty bad. You know, that last 10-15 games where the Leafs have sunk to the depths they're more suited to lately? 3G's and 4A's in his last 15? Yikes. 80pts on the year is nothing to shed a tear about, but man, what a year it could have been!!! He still sits a very respectable 6th in scoring, but when comparing him to the key component in "the trade", he's actually now 3 spots behind Tyler Seguin (3rd overall!!!) and only 1 goal ahead of him (Seguin)! Hard to argue this deal in favour of TO if Seguin continues to put up similar numbers!!!

Anyway, just thought I'd throw an end of season hello out to ya Crock. Don't be so shy, if you're waiting for Kessel's next hot streak we may not hear from you until October at this rate? Unless of course, he goes on a birdie tear on the links starting next week?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2014 :  13:03:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Its been a while since I weight in on this debate. At the time of the trade I heavily sided with Boston on the trade because of the cap space free'd up to sign free agents in Boston and the fact Kessel was injured at the time, which to me was a risk. Looking back Toronto got all the value out of Kessel they could have asked for, but Boston swung for the fences with there return.

Does anyone realize Sequin scored at Kessel's pace while earning less and was statistically superior in all ways as a centerman for a playoff bound team. The later draft picks have all turned to gold for Boston and the secondary trades for assest's acquired have also turned to gold. Like it or not Boston wins this trade even though Toronto got the best possible return they could have expected.

And in advance, there has to be a winner, so don't be a wiener and plead both teams win. Tell me the last time the runner up to the cup was called the winner.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 04/12/2014 13:08:50
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2014 :  14:49:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Does anyone realize Sequin scored at Kessel's pace while earning less and was statistically superior in all ways as a centerman for a playoff bound team.



I think most hockey fans realize it. Most Leaf fans probably don't want to acknowledge it however. Ah well.

Its amazing that people are still talking about this trade - someone even started a SECOND thread for it. Looking at where things are now, its clear that both teams got something of value, although the value is different.

TOR - got a legitimate goal scoring forward.

BOS - got cap relief, draft picks, that allowed them to build a superior balanced team that will be competitive for years to come. One cup, another cup final, and looking positioned to make another cup run this year.

Which one is more valuable? I'd argue BOS wins this deal. But TOR certainly got a great individual player in Kessel.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2014 :  12:30:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Omg.

Sorry I have been absent for so long. Yeah, that was kind of cheap.

Well. The Leafs sure let ME down. For all of my rhetorical Leafs and Kessel boosting - well, I certainly feel like a fool.

Ugh.

And Seguin. What a finish to the Season. Congratulations to the Stars.

All this to say, it looks like you guys have won this Round. And frankly, if the Leafs couldn't do it this Season - I don't really like their chances going forward. All I have to say about that is "wow". Dropping 14 of 16 to slump quietly out of the Playoffs. Ouch man. Even the lowly Sens passed the Leafs. Unreal. I've never seen anything like that... Oh wait. Last Season. When they blew that 4-1 lead with... (omg please don't remind me)... Or wait, wasn't it two years ago that the Leafs lost something like 18 of their last 22 games to miss the Playoffs again? Brutal.

I don't know what to say. But, I will acknowledge losing this Round. Congratulations you guys.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2014 :  22:45:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock.....good of you to drop by, and good of you to own up to your "loss" of "this round".

Feel free to pop in more often to stir the pot! Enjoy the playoffs, regardless of who's in it. My team is out, and I'm loving the hockey I'm seeing right now anyway!!!

BTW, for once and for all, are you a Leaf fan??? I thought I recall you claiming you weren't, but really liked Kessel and enjoyed defending that side of the trade debate?
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