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nuxfan
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3592 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2014 :  22:26:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Taking into account both performance and contract, would you rather have David Clarkson or Chris Higgins on your hockey team?

Choices:

David Clarkson
Chris Higgins

(Anonymous Vote)

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2014 :  22:52:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't want to keep clogging up the Callahan thread with non-Callahan talk. So new thread and poll:

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I will definitely agree with you on financial mis-management in the NHL.....but really, you think that Higgins is as good as Clarkson ?

Do you think that Higgins would be the most sought after UFA during the summer ??...as Clarkson was ??...lol I don't think so



As good? I actually think that Higgins is better than Clarkson, in most measurable ways.

I have no doubt that Higgins would likely not be the most sought after UFA in the summer, were he to become a UFA. However, I'm not concerned with baseless hype, I'm only concerned with performance and what a player actually does on the ice.

Higgins vs Clarkson

Stats:
- Higgins is 30 yrs old, 6'/203lbs
- Clarkson is 29 years old, 6'1/205lbs
- Higgins is 9 months older than Clarkson

Contract:
- Higgins in year 1 of a 4yr/10M contract (2.5M per season), expires when he turns 34.
- Clarkson in year 1 of a 7yr/36.5M contract (5.25M per season), expires when he turns 37

NHL performance:
- Higgins:
-- plays on 2nd or 3rd line with VAN, uses speed and size effectively
-- plays in all situations, primary PK, second unit PP
-- current season: 33pts in 58 games, -6, 18PIM, 4 GWG
-- 254 pts in 523 games, .49 PPG. 171 PIM
-- best season 2007/08, 27g/25a, 52 pts (Clarkson had 22 pts in 82 games that year)
-- 19 pts in 54 playoff games, including 8 pts in 2011 trip to SCF

-Clarkson
-- plays on 2nd or 3rd line with TOR, played 2nd or 1st line in NJ the year before, uses speed and size effectively
-- plays primarily ES, no PK, irregular time on PP
-- current season: 10 pts in 39 games, -5, 55 PIM
-- 170 pts in 426 games, .40 PPG, 770 PIM
-- best season 2011/12, 30g/16a, 46pts (Higgins had 43 pts in 71 games that year)
-- 14 pts in 44 playoff games, including 12 pts in 2012 trip to SCF

Conclusion:
- both players have had similar career numbers, similar career highs in points, both produced about the same amount in their last full years in the NHL.
- both players have had similar production in the playoffs, both have been to 1 SCF, neither has won
- Higgins is the better all-around player, plays in all situations, top PK and second PP units.
- Higgins is more productive offensively, on a team that has scored 20 less goals so far this season.
- Higgins contract is far more palatable, both in cap hit and term

Duke - now is your chance to clearly outline how Clarkson is the better choice for your hockey team than Higgins.

Edited by - nuxfan on 02/09/2014 22:53:40
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Guest6751
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Posted - 02/10/2014 :  11:52:17  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Duke - now is your chance to clearly outline how Clarkson is the better choice for your hockey team than Higgins.

You didn't post relative corsi stats. That's where Clarkson completely rocks it.
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  15:34:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did you vote 9 times Nuxfan ??....Higgins is a washed up has-been who no-body wanted e few seasons ago.
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Pasty7
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Canada
2278 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  15:53:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Did you vote 9 times Nuxfan ??....Higgins is a washed up has-been who no-body wanted e few seasons ago.



Sidney crosby is washed up has been who nobody wanted a few seasons ago.



see how easy it is to say something completely baseless and provide nothing to support it?



any player on pace for 45 points and over 20 goals is none of the things you stated,

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  15:54:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Did you vote 9 times Nuxfan ??....Higgins is a washed up has-been who no-body wanted e few seasons ago.



I did not vote 9 times.

So, this "washed up has been that no body wanted" is somehow outperforming your new shiny toy, in most meaningful statistics, over more than one season. What does that tell you about your new shiny toy?
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ryan93
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Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  17:20:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was one of the ones who voted for Higgins. No way would I want Clarkson on my team with that contract. I was never much for Clarkson, and being a Rangers fan I've seen him play plenty over the years.
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Guest9832
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Posted - 02/10/2014 :  17:45:02  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
So, this "washed up has been that no body wanted" is somehow outperforming your new shiny toy, in most meaningful statistics, over more than one season. What does that tell you about your new shiny toy?

Ouch. Not sure how you come back from this statement. Duke, stay down for the count. Don't forget that it is a very, very expensive new toy.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  00:11:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I voted Higgins. Now, if dollar value was equal, I'd prob lean on Clarkson but to be honest, after nuxfan's points he made, it may not be a slam dunk. I though Clarkson had better numbers than he actually has over his career?
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4603 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  11:37:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slight edge to Clarkson. But really even.

Really though, if you are taking into account contract . . . you have to tell me the exact team, and the answer would be different nearly half the time.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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irvine
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Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  11:40:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Personally,

I'm going to take Chris Higgins every time given the situation.

I want a guy who I can play in any situation. If Higgins provides me the capability of playing the PK on a regular basis, and provides me slightly better offensive numbers to boot. I'd prefer him on my team. ESPECIALLY, at half the price.

The key factor for me is contract. There are lots of guys in the NHL who provide leadership qualities. I don't think that is worth double the price.

Irvine/prez.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  12:23:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Really though, if you are taking into account contract . . . you have to tell me the exact team, and the answer would be different nearly half the time.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



I don't understand what this means. Why does the team matter WRT to the contract? A contract is a contract.
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  12:53:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Pasty....i`m going to see the Leafs vs the Habs in Montreal on Mar 01....can`t wait ::))...which bars are the best ones to hit after the game ??.....i`ve passed through Montreal several times but never really stayed there.
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  13:19:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Heh every1....lets visit this Clarkson vs Higgins thing again after the playoffs are over and see what happens. NO ONE is giving Clarkson a chance here. The guy has only played 38 games in Toronto, his feet aren`t even wet.

He started off the season with a 10 game suspension. He came in not even knowing his role, which is still undetermined in my opinion. He has bounced all over the leaf line up, basically constantly filling in for who-ever is hurt. He has had very, very minimal PP time. For most of the season Carlyle has had him in checking situations playing alongside Jay Mclement , which mostly explains his low numbers. ( along with NOT on the 1st or 2nd PP unit regularly )....to me, ha has NOT really been assigned a specific role by the coach and he is probably just as mystified as leaf fans are as to why he hasn't`t been placed on a scoring line with regularity.

Why do you sign a player to a 5.25 million dollar salary for 7 years and not totally utilize his goal scoring abilities which he has shown over the last 2 seasons ??.....last year he was on pace for basically a 30 goal season.......season before he scored 30 goals......yet the leafs DO NOT place him in front of the net regularly ( ALMOST NEVER ) on their PP....??

If the leafs needed a 3rd line plugger.....why didn`t they sign one for 2 million per season ??....why did they sign Clarkson to score goals on a SCORING line and then have him playing a checking role for 75 % of this season ??....doesn`t make sense.

The last couple of games he has been playing alongside Kadri and Lupul.....and he has played really well....Can u imagine that the leafs have so much scoring depth.....they have trouble finding a spot for a 30 goal scorer on either of their top 2 lines.....some may laugh at that statement but it is true.

kessel - Bobak - JVR
Raymond - Kadri - Lupul
Still have Clarkson and Bolland who is out of course.........I think Clarkson was signed to fill the spot which Raymond earned early into the season while Clarkson was on suspension.....thus making it hard for Carlye to demote Raymond......anyway the rest is history.
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  13:30:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Heh Nuxfan...lets have a friendly wager.....

If Clarkson can help push the Leafs into the final 4 during the playoffs.....you wear a leafs logo all next season.....PLUS...write...

.i was wrong about Clarkson......Duke was right...

preceding all your posts next season

I`ll do the same ( Vancouver thing ) regarding Higgins.....if he helps the Canucks into the final 4....

You got a bet or what ?????

p.s...if they both make the final 4 .....the team who goes furthest wins of course.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  14:39:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, more good points made re Clarkson as he's def struggled to find time on the top 2 lines, somewhere that i think everyone expected him to be. From what i understand, he played a lot of the past 2 seasons on NJ's top line alongside Elias and either Zajac or Henrique? Maybe he can prove his worth or at least a little closer to it, with a bump up the TO depth chart? Whether it's a slump or an injury or whatever, he seems to need some sort of break to get a shot there at this point in time. Unless of course the GM or owner starts letting the coach know he needs to have this happen to their "new shiny piece"?

What i don't get is all this playoff hype you're living on. I get that it's easy to use this as a defence and hope he actually has a good post season, but history isn't exactly on your side. His best playoff year was '11/12 and he had just 3/9/12 in 24 games during NJ's run to the cup final. FYI, his stats in the 6game SCF series vs LA reads ZERO goals, 2 assists, 2pts. Not too spectacular. Don't get me wrong, he could have a mammoth post season this year and really come alive, but at this point, looking at a contract that even you've admitted is an overpayment, how could you not vote Higgins at the dollar value he is at???

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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  15:49:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Heh every1....lets visit this Clarkson vs Higgins thing again after the playoffs are over and see what happens. NO ONE is giving Clarkson a chance here. The guy has only played 38 games in Toronto, his feet aren`t even wet.



Hm, another point of comparison, thanks for bringing it up.

Higgins was traded to VAN near the end of the 10/11 season, he put up 5 points in 14 games (note that is much better than 10 points in 38), playing 3rd line minutes on a very good team. The following year, his first full one with VAN, he had 43pts in 71 games.

Why didn't Higgins need a break-in period?

quote:

He started off the season with a 10 game suspension. He came in not even knowing his role, which is still undetermined in my opinion. He has bounced all over the leaf line up, basically constantly filling in for who-ever is hurt. He has had very, very minimal PP time. For most of the season Carlyle has had him in checking situations playing alongside Jay Mclement , which mostly explains his low numbers. ( along with NOT on the 1st or 2nd PP unit regularly )....to me, ha has NOT really been assigned a specific role by the coach and he is probably just as mystified as leaf fans are as to why he hasn't`t been placed on a scoring line with regularity.



He doesn't know his role? He's making 5.25M a year, his role is to be a top-6 winger and score a bunch of points! Its not rocket science Duke, the reason that he is getting "bounced all over the lineup" is because he IS NOT PERFORMING IN HIS EXPECTED ROLE. He's not on the scoring line with regularity because he IS NOT SCORING, and other players are scoring in his place. Were he to finally start pocketing a few points, I'm sure Leaf management would be more than happy to slot him into the top-6, even top-3, where they hoped he would play when they signed him to that contract

And before you say "he would score more points if he got the opportunity..." LOOK AT HIGGINS. The guy has double the PPG as Clarkson, playing regularly on the 3rd line with a Vancouver team that has scored 20 less goals than TOR. His linemates are any combination of David Booth, Brad Richardson, Janik Hansen, Alex Burrows, and farm team callups for injured players.

quote:

Why do you sign a player to a 5.25 million dollar salary for 7 years and not totally utilize his goal scoring abilities which he has shown over the last 2 seasons ??.....last year he was on pace for basically a 30 goal season.......season before he scored 30 goals......yet the leafs DO NOT place him in front of the net regularly ( ALMOST NEVER ) on their PP....??


see above

quote:

If the leafs needed a 3rd line plugger.....why didn`t they sign one for 2 million per season ??....why did they sign Clarkson to score goals on a SCORING line and then have him playing a checking role for 75 % of this season ??....doesn`t make sense.



see above

quote:

The last couple of games he has been playing alongside Kadri and Lupul.....and he has played really well....Can u imagine that the leafs have so much scoring depth.....they have trouble finding a spot for a 30 goal scorer on either of their top 2 lines.....some may laugh at that statement but it is true.



See above

quote:

I think Clarkson was signed to fill the spot which Raymond earned early into the season while Clarkson was on suspension.....thus making it hard for Carlye to demote Raymond......anyway the rest is history.



Bingo. Its hard to demote Raymond, because Raymond is actually producing points. Clarkson is not, at 5x the salary.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
If Clarkson can help push the Leafs into the final 4 during the playoffs.....you wear a leafs logo all next season.....PLUS...write...

.i was wrong about Clarkson......Duke was right...

preceding all your posts next season

I`ll do the same ( Vancouver thing ) regarding Higgins.....if he helps the Canucks into the final 4....

You got a bet or what ?????

p.s...if they both make the final 4 .....the team who goes furthest wins of course.



- Define "helped"
- what if neither team goes to the final 4? What if neither team makes the playoffs?
- I think you mean following, not preceding, ie a signature

Edited by - nuxfan on 02/11/2014 15:50:54
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  16:01:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, the post season to me is more about shutting down guys like Alex Semin ( for eg ) rather than just putting the puck in the net. It seems to me that once the playoffs start ( a new season ) players who bring grit to the table ( like Clarkson ) are much more valuable than the likes of an Alex Semin type player. Strong defensive, forechecking, 2 way, in ur face players ....usually come out on top come playoff time.......i think Clarkson is that type of player. One who has something to prove....thats why i think he will excel if the leafs make the post season. OK he had 12 points in 24 games...( during the playoffs ) .but how many scoring chances against did he break up with his gritty play...i bet quite a few.

I didn`t vote for Higgins because i watched him play plenty with Montreal and he is what he is, an average player.....Clarksons numbers are crap so far this year, this is true but in my eyes i see so much more potential in Clarkson just lying there. I truely believe his fortunes will soon turn as long as he gets 2nd line play and mins.....along with some PP time.
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The Duke
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Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  16:23:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nuxfan, you can say what you want about my post but......

The simple fact of the matter is.....Theres not ONE SINGLE NHL player in the entire league who scores 82 points or better a season ( regularly ) who is NOT on the 1st line and doesn`t get 1st unit PP minutes......plus getting over 20 mins. per game playing along side the teams other TOP players.

Clarkson DOESN`T get PP time.

Clarkson doesn`t play on TO`s 1st line

Clarkson doesn`t play on TO`s 2nd line ( just of late )

How can the guy put up points ???,,,

Its a waste of time for any1 to tell me that Clarkson failed to crack TO`s top 6 because I watch all the leaf games and he hasn`t played enough regular minutes or games on the 2nd line this season for Carlyle to make this assumption.....He has played in the top 6 for a game or 2 every now and then and thats it......He MAY get 2nd line PP mins once in a blue moon but thats it.....Do you know how much TO`s 2nd PP unit even gets ?? not much compared to its # 1 unit.....Phaneuf , Franson , kessel , JVR, Bozak eat up most of every TO..PP.

Yes his numbers suck, but Toronto`s management can only look at themselves for the most part in regard to his lousy numbers.....You don`t sign a player for over 5 million per for several years and plant him on your 3rd line with mostly Jay Mclement who constantly plays 100 % defence and kills all opposing PP`s.....his mind set is total defence, get the puck out over the blue line.....not set up Clarkson to score.

When you sign this type of player, for this much $$$, you place him on your 1st, maybe 2nd line and give him PP mins.......if you don`t, he is doomed from the start and you ( management ) look like a fool.....this is whats happening in Toronto with regard to David Clarkson.

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4603 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  17:39:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Really though, if you are taking into account contract . . . you have to tell me the exact team, and the answer would be different nearly half the time.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



I don't understand what this means. Why does the team matter WRT to the contract? A contract is a contract.



A team with lots of room and yet still having the means to spend means I pick Clarkson easily.

A team that is up against the cap can't afford Clarkson - so it's Higgins.

A team somewhere in the middle . . . like the Leafs were . . . would choose on the subtle differences. In the Leafs case, they needed more grit among the forward, a banger/crasher type player, and the leadership guy who had playoff experience was also key. But for other teams in this situation who already have plenty of grit and toughness among the forwards . . . might be Higgins instead.

Definitely depends on the team's financial situation.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  21:08:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Nuxfan, you can say what you want about my post but......

The simple fact of the matter is.....Theres not ONE SINGLE NHL player in the entire league who scores 82 points or better a season ( regularly ) who is NOT on the 1st line and doesn`t get 1st unit PP minutes......plus getting over 20 mins. per game playing along side the teams other TOP players.

Clarkson DOESN`T get PP time.

Clarkson doesn`t play on TO`s 1st line

Clarkson doesn`t play on TO`s 2nd line ( just of late )

How can the guy put up points ???,,,



There is not ONE SINGLE NHL player that gets all those things without earning them, by producing and showing they can produce. Does Clarkson deserve to get time on the top line and top PP unit without earning the minutes?

quote:

Its a waste of time for any1 to tell me that Clarkson failed to crack TO`s top 6 because I watch all the leaf games and he hasn`t played enough regular minutes or games on the 2nd line this season for Carlyle to make this assumption.....He has played in the top 6 for a game or 2 every now and then and thats it......He MAY get 2nd line PP mins once in a blue moon but thats it.....Do you know how much TO`s 2nd PP unit even gets ?? not much compared to its # 1 unit.....Phaneuf , Franson , kessel , JVR, Bozak eat up most of every TO..PP.



Oh, so he does get time on the top lines without earning it. And then when he gets that magical time, he can't seem to produce enough to warrant the coach keeping him there. So the coach has no choice but to put him back on the 3rd line and promote someone else who can produce in that situation. Gotcha

quote:

Yes his numbers suck, but Toronto`s management can only look at themselves for the most part in regard to his lousy numbers.....You don`t sign a player for over 5 million per for several years and plant him on your 3rd line with mostly Jay Mclement who constantly plays 100 % defence and kills all opposing PP`s.....his mind set is total defence, get the puck out over the blue line.....not set up Clarkson to score.



Toronto management is to blame for his poor performance on the ice? OK, now I've heard it all. Next you'll be telling me that the timing of the TV timeouts, or the ice chicks are to blame.

I don't think TOR management planned to stick him on the 3rd line when they signed him to that deal...

quote:

When you sign this type of player, for this much $$$, you place him on your 1st, maybe 2nd line and give him PP mins.......if you don`t, he is doomed from the start and you ( management ) look like a fool.....this is whats happening in Toronto with regard to David Clarkson.



You do initially do that... but when they don't produce, you punt them down until they do produce. See David Booth in VAN - came over in the trade, put on the second line with Kesler, everyone excited...and then nothing. Give him a few games, nothing. Move him down to the 3rd line. When he gets hot (rarely), move him up to the second, stalls again, back down to the 3rd line.

I can assure you that management does not look foolish for playing a 4.25M forward on the 3rd and 4th line in this case. He doesn't earn any more than that. Same with Clarkson.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  21:52:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
*ETA......didn't' see nuxfan's post till I posted this so there's a little repletion re David Booth.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex, the post season to me is more about shutting down guys like Alex Semin ( for eg ) rather than just putting the puck in the net. It seems to me that once the playoffs start ( a new season ) players who bring grit to the table ( like Clarkson ) are much more valuable than the likes of an Alex Semin type player. Strong defensive, forechecking, 2 way, in ur face players ....usually come out on top come playoff time.......i think Clarkson is that type of player. One who has something to prove....thats why i think he will excel if the leafs make the post season. OK he had 12 points in 24 games...( during the playoffs ) .but how many scoring chances against did he break up with his gritty play...i bet quite a few.

I didn`t vote for Higgins because i watched him play plenty with Montreal and he is what he is, an average player.....Clarksons numbers are crap so far this year, this is true but in my eyes i see so much more potential in Clarkson just lying there. I truely believe his fortunes will soon turn as long as he gets 2nd line play and mins.....along with some PP time.



Duke, here's the thing. You said "Strong defensive, forechecking, 2 way, in ur face players ....usually come out on top come playoff time.......i think Clarkson is that type of player." I disagree and don't as imo, Clarkson isn't a two way forward, and certainly not in the same category as the guys with similar contracts. Guys making approx 5M per (and aside from Kesler, I'm guessing here, some may be closer to 4M, some closer to 6M?) are Kesler, J. Staal, A. Ladd, Plekanec, etc. These guys are two way forwards and they're all arguably the top defensive forward on their team (if not, certainly top 2 or 3). They are also guys who have, or are close, to 25-30G / 30-35A players (55-70pts or better). I just don't see Clarkson in this class. Fact is, he's not. He's a shoot first kind of guy, evident by the fact that he's only once had more assists than goals, and even then it was 11G/13A in just 46games. Bottom line is, the Leafs signed him to this deal expecting goals and of course, forechecking and some toughness. They expect(ed) him to be a top 6 for sure and while injuries and suspensions have cost him somewhat, even you admit he's had a chance in the top 6 on more than one occasion. He needs to take advantage of that. It reminds me of Ray Ferraro's words today regarding Team Canada. Apparently at practice, M. St. Louis and M. Duchene appeared to be the "extra" forwards. Ferraro said, "they need to bide their time, practice hard, be good team mates and most importantly, when/if they get a shot, seize the opportunity and be ready to run with it". Clarkson needs to do the same think in TO.

As for "how many scoring chances did he break up", I could care less. As I've stated, he wasn't brought to TO and paid big money to do this task. He was brought in to score! Pretty sure they expected a 30G guy for what they're paying him.

I'll tell you one thing, the Canucks picked up David Booth and he was in a similar spot. He was expected to be a scorer, came in and suffered through injury after injury, but say what you want about the Canucks coaching and GM, Booth was given EVERY opportunity to earn that spot on the second line. He never did seem to fit in. Toronto needs to rethink their strategy with regards to Clarkson. I know it's tough with Raymond playing as well as he is, but you can't leave this 5.25M scoring forward playing with checkers! Personally, I think he's got a couple more 30G season's in him (with some good linemates), however, I still argue the term on this deal is far too long for the money he's getting and the age he's at!

Edited by - Alex116 on 02/11/2014 21:53:35
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Guest2697
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Posted - 02/12/2014 :  13:59:53  Reply with Quote
Easy answer, Higgins. Clarkson had 1 great year and now is back to being a bum. Higgins has always been serviceable. Add in the big difference in their contracts and it is an easy answer.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2278 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2014 :  19:38:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Hey Pasty....i`m going to see the Leafs vs the Habs in Montreal on Mar 01....can`t wait ::))...which bars are the best ones to hit after the game ??.....i`ve passed through Montreal several times but never really stayed there.



On Bishop and Crescent are the pubs and sports bar sort of places, cant got wrong with the Irish Embassy, or Yee Old orchard pub, My personaly favorite is on Bishop street (about 3 blocks from the bell center, 10 min walk) Mckibbons Irish Pub, the basement and main level are pub style and if you bring your ticket stub you get a free moosehead! the third floor is more of a club style bar. My buddy ty will be running the bar in the basement and there is a 75% chance i will be there i usually watch my habs games there in the basement if i dont have tickets!

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Guest8014
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Posted - 02/12/2014 :  20:41:12  Reply with Quote
answer : easy, david Clarkson

give the guy a break. he got suspended before the season even starts because without hesitation he jumps off the bench to defend the franchises prized stallion against a giant goon who is certainly not out there to score goals for his team. imagine if kessel fought and broke a bone and is out 6 weeks...who replaces his 19 pts in 19 gms? correct me if im wrong but I don't recall Higgins ever sticking up for the sedins in the finals against boston? nuxfan, who would you rather on your team if you are the canucks in the finals against boston, Higgins or Clarkson? canucks got slapped, spanked, you name it, do you think its the same series with Clarkson on the team? both players recently had long cup runs, Clarkson(dc) was top 6 on his team in scoring, Higgins(ch) top 9...which would you rather on your team, a top 6 guy or a top 9 guy? dc had 12 pts, ch 8pts. my vote here goes to dc

unfortunately for Clarkson, following his suspension the leafs were forced to sign Raymond, who found chemistry on the second line. his numbers this year are similar to his 2011 season with canucks. I bet come playoff time he wont have the toughness and disappear, as he did with Vancouver in 2011 (8pts, tied top 9 with ch). leafs wont resign him because Clarkson will outplay him in the big playoff games and regain the second line spot going forward.

nuxfan, if ch provides a statistical advantage (based on your stats (ppg this season, career, best season) and is the better "all-around player", why don't you think he gets paid as much as Clarkson? you think he is just a nice guy who plays for a discount? you think his agent didn't have access to your statistics? I think nhl gms agree with me that they would rather dc on their team and that is why he is paid WAY more than ch.
I can also cherry pick stats to clarksons advantage:
Clarkson is more durable, he has missed 2 games or less in 5 of his 6 seasons (not incl this year). Higgins top 5 (out of 8 seasons) gms played in a season 82, 80, 71, 61, 57.
pts last 4 seasons :dc 112, ch 103, last 3 seas dc 88 ch 86, last 2 dc 70, ch 58, last season dc 24 ch 15
dc + 2 ch -15 vs playoff teams this season, dc -8 ch+9 vs non-playoff teams, who would you rather in the playoffs?
where has Vancouver spent the money they "saved" on Higgins over Clarkson? has it translated to more team wins for them compared to Toronto, no (32 tor vs 27 van). has it put them in a better position for the playoffs, no. Vancouver currently out, tor in.
seriously though, nuxfan, would you really prefer Higgins in your lineup vs Clarkson if you met the bruins again in the playoffs? what about other tough teams like the blues, kings, ducks? you think Higgins will get into their heads in the playoffs or you think Clarkson would give you an advantage there? when the puck drops, dollars and term no longer matter, everybody is equals on ice during the game and Clarkson is the guy you want on your side over Higgins.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3592 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2014 :  23:55:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

answer : easy, david Clarkson

give the guy a break. he got suspended before the season even starts because without hesitation he jumps off the bench to defend the franchises prized stallion against a giant goon who is certainly not out there to score goals for his team. imagine if kessel fought and broke a bone and is out 6 weeks...who replaces his 19 pts in 19 gms? correct me if im wrong but I don't recall Higgins ever sticking up for the sedins in the finals against boston? nuxfan, who would you rather on your team if you are the canucks in the finals against boston, Higgins or Clarkson? canucks got slapped, spanked, you name it, do you think its the same series with Clarkson on the team?



Yes, I do. I don't think Clarkson would have made a bit of difference to the outcome of that series with BOS. The entire team got spanked, not just the Sedin's, and no one could score. Clarkson does not make any difference to that series. In fact, given what I've seen so far this year, Clarkson would probably have gotten himself suspended, that seems to be the outcome any time he sticks up for teammates. Twice so far this year!

quote:

both players recently had long cup runs, Clarkson(dc) was top 6 on his team in scoring, Higgins(ch) top 9...which would you rather on your team, a top 6 guy or a top 9 guy? dc had 12 pts, ch 8pts. my vote here goes to dc



Top 6, top 9, I don't care where they line up. Clarkson didn't help his team anymore than Higgins helped his. Clarkson had 2 assists in the finals, and NJ scored 8 a total of goals in 6 games. About the same as VAN in their finals appearance. All I hear about Clarkson is what an awesome playoff performer he is. Where are these performances???

quote:

unfortunately for Clarkson, following his suspension the leafs were forced to sign Raymond, who found chemistry on the second line. his numbers this year are similar to his 2011 season with canucks. I bet come playoff time he wont have the toughness and disappear, as he did with Vancouver in 2011 (8pts, tied top 9 with ch). leafs wont resign him because Clarkson will outplay him in the big playoff games and regain the second line spot going forward.



Again, what history are you basing this incredible playoff turnaround on? A single season where he scored 12 points in 24 games, and 2 assists in the final 6 games when it counted the most?

I do agree with you that Raymond will fold like a deck chair in the playoffs. There is a reason that VAN didn't re sign him.

quote:

nuxfan, if ch provides a statistical advantage (based on your stats (ppg this season, career, best season) and is the better "all-around player", why don't you think he gets paid as much as Clarkson? you think he is just a nice guy who plays for a discount? you think his agent didn't have access to your statistics? I think nhl gms agree with me that they would rather dc on their team and that is why he is paid WAY more than ch.



Is Higgins playing at a discount, or is Clarkson overpaid? What other NHL players making 5.25M per season are currently producing .3 PPG playing on the 3rd lines and getting zero PP time, of an offensive team?

quote:

I can also cherry pick stats to clarksons advantage:
Clarkson is more durable, he has missed 2 games or less in 5 of his 6 seasons (not incl this year). Higgins top 5 (out of 8 seasons) gms played in a season 82, 80, 71, 61, 57.
pts last 4 seasons :dc 112, ch 103, last 3 seas dc 88 ch 86, last 2 dc 70, ch 58, last season dc 24 ch 15
dc + 2 ch -15 vs playoff teams this season, dc -8 ch+9 vs non-playoff teams, who would you rather in the playoffs?



Durability, I'll give you that. Higgins has been injured more than Clarkson. Of course, it doesn't matter much when you're not producing anything with your health...

Point totals are nearly identical from the last 4 seasons.

Your +/- numbers don't actually look good for either player. Why does Clarkson suck so much against crap teams?

quote:

where has Vancouver spent the money they "saved" on Higgins over Clarkson? has it translated to more team wins for them compared to Toronto, no (32 tor vs 27 van). has it put them in a better position for the playoffs, no. Vancouver currently out, tor in.
seriously though, nuxfan, would you really prefer Higgins in your lineup vs Clarkson if you met the bruins again in the playoffs? what about other tough teams like the blues, kings, ducks? you think Higgins will get into their heads in the playoffs or you think Clarkson would give you an advantage there? when the puck drops, dollars and term no longer matter, everybody is equals on ice during the game and Clarkson is the guy you want on your side over Higgins.



You're basing your decision on nothing but hype and hope - you have yet to see Clarkson actually do anything other than chirp at opposition players, throw a few hits, and get suspended. Against heavy teams like SJ and LA, Clarkson will do nothing for you. But TOR fans have to be praying he's the playoff god you all think you got... otherwise come September, this deal is going to look really really bad.

Yep, I'll take Higgins. Very little downside, tons of upside. Even if he doesn't score another goal and sucks in the playoffs, VAN only pays 2.5M a year for him and only for 3 more years, if they don't dump him first. But if he continues to produce at what Clarkson should, he's a great deal for VAN. Hence my vote.

Edited by - nuxfan on 02/12/2014 23:56:21
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Guest6751
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Posted - 02/13/2014 :  06:56:57  Reply with Quote
Wow. How eternally optimistic Leafs fans are. I guess if you haven't won the cup in 40+ years you have nothing else but hope that your chances will come.

Listen statistics says the leafs chances to win the cup suck and continue to suck for another long wihile as they sign useless players to big dollars. Hoping against all data that the big dollar players who has never produced with any significance in regular season or playoffs will suddenly emerge as a playoff god. Chances are he'll continue just as he has and likely gradually decrease as he ages.

Hmmm. I didn't get struck by lightning, while picking the winning lottery number while an asteroid comes crashing towards me today or ever, but you know what? If I hope for it long and hard enough, it will happen. If only the Stanley Cup can be won by hope of blue tinted glasses.

Clarkson is ridiculously overpaid. Leafs fans continue to hope long and hard that he isn't overpaid, it is cute. They will defy all logic and data to argue otherwise. But they (generally) won't back up their "useless" #1 defencemen.

Strange group of people these blue tinted glasses folks.
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Guest8014
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Posted - 02/13/2014 :  10:55:54  Reply with Quote
guest 6751, just curious what team you cheer for?
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Guest6751
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Posted - 02/13/2014 :  11:30:10  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

guest 6751, just curious what team you cheer for?

No one in particular. I cheer for hockey.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  12:05:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know this was directed at nuxfan, but I feel compelled to respond......

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

answer : easy, david Clarkson

imagine if kessel fought and broke a bone and is out 6 weeks...who replaces his 19 pts in 19 gms?

Lol, just imagine if Kessel fought. Nevermind breaking bones, etc. Just imagine if he fought! Ok, I kid somewhat, but I think broken bones would be an understatement if he fought Scott!


quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
correct me if im wrong but I don't recall Higgins ever sticking up for the sedins in the finals against boston? nuxfan, who would you rather on your team if you are the canucks in the finals against boston, Higgins or Clarkson? canucks got slapped, spanked, you name it, do you think its the same series with Clarkson on the team? both players recently had long cup runs, Clarkson(dc) was top 6 on his team in scoring, Higgins(ch) top 9...which would you rather on your team, a top 6 guy or a top 9 guy? dc had 12 pts, ch 8pts. my vote here goes to dc


As much as it makes me sick to my stomach to recall the '11 finals, I have to say, I don't think Clarkson would have made a big difference to the Canucks. Beans always talked about the Canucks lack of discipline, but in fact that final series was proof to me that they were in fact VERY disciplined and obeyed their coach's orders. The team was instructed not to retaliate and simply accept the PP's they were given. Unfortunatley, the PP was their key to success all year, and it dried up when it mattered most, costing them the cup. David Clarkson was going to make little/no difference in this regard. I mean, what are you implying? He'd go beat up Lucic or Chara? Lol, good luck with that. The Canucks didn't lose the series due to Brad Marchand "rabbit punching" Daniel Sedin (and other minor things like that), they lost it because the PP they'd relied on all year wasn't effective. Give the Bruins credit, they shut down their biggest weapon.


quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

nuxfan, if ch provides a statistical advantage (based on your stats (ppg this season, career, best season) and is the better "all-around player", why don't you think he gets paid as much as Clarkson? you think he is just a nice guy who plays for a discount? you think his agent didn't have access to your statistics? I think nhl gms agree with me that they would rather dc on their team and that is why he is paid WAY more than ch.
I can also cherry pick stats to clarksons advantage:
Clarkson is more durable, he has missed 2 games or less in 5 of his 6 seasons (not incl this year). Higgins top 5 (out of 8 seasons) gms played in a season 82, 80, 71, 61, 57.
pts last 4 seasons :dc 112, ch 103, last 3 seas dc 88 ch 86, last 2 dc 70, ch 58, last season dc 24 ch 15
dc + 2 ch -15 vs playoff teams this season, dc -8 ch+9 vs non-playoff teams, who would you rather in the playoffs?
where has Vancouver spent the money they "saved" on Higgins over Clarkson? has it translated to more team wins for them compared to Toronto, no (32 tor vs 27 van). has it put them in a better position for the playoffs, no. Vancouver currently out, tor in.
seriously though, nuxfan, would you really prefer Higgins in your lineup vs Clarkson if you met the bruins again in the playoffs? what about other tough teams like the blues, kings, ducks? you think Higgins will get into their heads in the playoffs or you think Clarkson would give you an advantage there? when the puck drops, dollars and term no longer matter, everybody is equals on ice during the game and Clarkson is the guy you want on your side over Higgins.


Higgins doesn't get paid as much because of timing mostly, and I will concede, Clarkson is a better player. Not by the landslide their salaries show, but he is a better all around guy. He also obviously cashed in on a weak field of FA's so you could say timing was on his side.
Talking about who is top 6 in scoring on one team vs top 9 on another in different playoff years vs different teams with different linemates is laughable I will say. But I will give you this much, I'd rather have Clarkson than Higgins anyway. BUT, here's the thing. NOT at their current salaries! Not a chance in hell!
Clarkson offers more physicality for sure, and he may step his game up in the playoffs. The Leafs better hope so! However, I don't see him being that big of a difference maker. It's not like he's a Milan Lucic clone. He's not THAT big, doesn't fight in the heavyweight division, is not a playmaker whatsoever and likely needs good linemates to be effective. Any player who scores more than he assists, relies on his linemates. Take into consideration "second assists" and how you get them for pretty much nothing (heck, you can get one while sitting on the bench) and it surprises me that ANYONE has more goals than assists, but it does happen. I'm not saying that good players can't have this stat line as Jeff Carter and Rick Nash are proof that you can be effective / top tier players that way, it just surprises me that this happens.

To summarize, Clarkson is better overall than Higgins. I don't think nuxfan was every trying to say otherwise. However, with both guys at age 30 (or thereabouts), Higgins is on a FAR more friendly contract. It's been discussed around here at lengths how very few players increase or maintain their production as they hit their 30's. Is there any reason you think Clarkson may be one of the few? He's arguably past his prime (at best, in it) and the Leafs have signed him till he's 36. I've said all along, they will regret this deal down the road for sure. Now, if they win a cup in the next year or two when he's still contributing (giving the benefit of the doubt here that he finds his game soon), it will be worth it. However, if it's 5 years from now that the Leafs are serious competetors, this contract may be a bit crippling for what he'll be providing by then.
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Guest6751
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Posted - 02/21/2014 :  11:56:32  Reply with Quote
David Clarkson = Rene Bourque of MTL but less injury prone.
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