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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2014 : 15:30:32
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Poll Question:
Seems like it's been danced around a bit. Is the core of the Canucks getting too old? Do they still have a shot or two to go deep into the playoffs? Minor re-tooling, or wholesale rebuild?
THN says they should be big-time sellers. Toronto Sun has them pegged as the #2 buyers after St. Louis. From what I've read, it doesn't sound like Alex and Nuxfan are prepared for a rebuild, but it happens. Sometimes long and painful, sometimes unsuccessful.
How will they attempt to turn it around?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2014 : 22:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
From what I've read, it doesn't sound like Alex and Nuxfan are prepared for a rebuild, but it happens. Sometimes long and painful, sometimes unsuccessful.
Not sure what I wrote to make you think that? While I don't see the Sedin's as being moved, I'm hoping Kesler is for sure. His value will not be higher than it is today and the rumoured return would be a young top 6 forward, a high end prospect and a pick. I'm all over that! Dealing Hansen, Higgins, or whoever garners interest is okay as well providing the return is decent! People talk about a "retooling" or "rebuilding" and in this case, even though the Sedin's will be retained, I'd call it a rebuild. IF, they can make it quick, the Sedin's could possibly be still around and contributing to some degree when they return to the playoffs.
Either way, I'm all for Kesler being moved. Love the guy, love what he's done for the Canucks, but it's time to cash in on the value he'd bring back. No way he's still performing at the level he currently is by the time a mini rebuild / retooling takes place. It's time to let Horvat, Shinkaruk, Gaunce, etc have a shot at being a big part of the future here! |
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Shepsky
Rookie
Canada
211 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 03:15:39
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I'm going with sellers, although I couldn't tell you if they have anyone coming up in the rosters, but for Vancouver to trade away draft picks or prospects for someone to help them make "a cup run" would be dumb.... this team is in trouble right now, and I think the biggest problem is that greasy looking guy behind the bench... I can't stand torts, and he's taking a dump on the Canucks
Every day is a great day for hockey
-Mario Lemieux |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 09:03:25
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I hope they are neither to be honest - the types of moves they should be thinking about are summer deals, take some time to evaluate what you have and what you need. Players like Kesler, Burrows, Edler, Luongo etc are larger deals that should not be rushed into.
As for rebuild... you're right, I'm not sure. The team is definitely struggling with injuries right now, and cannot seem to score. But this is also the same team that was very good in the early part of the year, and rattled off 9 straight wins in December. The difference between now and December is primarily health. I'm interested to see what this team can do if they are all healthy again and playing to their abilities.
We'll see what happens in the summer. |
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Guest2697
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Posted - 03/03/2014 : 09:43:26
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| They definitely should not be buyers....but only be sellers if they get a deal they cannot refuse. No way should they be trading Kesler unless they put him in a package deal with luongo and/or edler and get back a couple top forwards and backup goalie at minimum. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 10:09:51
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Nuxfan...I disagree. I think they need to trade Kesler now. If teams see him as having 3-4 solid years left why would they not wanna grab him right now before this seasons playoffs begin???
If the rumours of the return are true I'd be all over it. I'd even deal him to Chicago if they the return was legit! The Canucks have a lot if very winnable games down the stretch but really what's the point of squeezing into the playoffs with this lineup? Do you really wanna see Chi crush us four straight?
Time to blow it up, again, providing the return is legit. Pitts has been rumoured to be offering Sutter, Pouliot and a 1st. I'm guessing as much as Gillis apparently likes Sutter that he's asking for more. The 1st may as well be a 2nd considering where the Pens are in the standings AND its a weak draft past the top 10. Anyway, that's just a rumoured deal and there are many of them. I wish there was a way we could get Johansen outta CBJ but its highly doubtful they'd look to deal him and I dont think Kes would waive to go there?
2687 - I don't see any team wanting Luongo in a package deal and if he gors anywhere it's likely Florida who wouldn't be in on Kesler. What's wrong with Kes on his own for something close to the rumoured deal? Gillis should have no prob trading Edler and others separately. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 11:32:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Nuxfan...I disagree. I think they need to trade Kesler now. If teams see him as having 3-4 solid years left why would they not wanna grab him right now before this seasons playoffs begin???
Do you really think a player like Kesler loses value between March and June? I sure don't - and in fact, you might have more suitors in the summer for that calibre of player. Him and Edler are probably the biggest chips that VAN have to deal with, there is no sense in rushing it right now.
He could be useful to them in this year's playoffs as well. As much as we've written them off, you never know what can happen come April. Always in the back of my mind... this is the exact same team that was very successful in November/December... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 12:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Nuxfan...I disagree. I think they need to trade Kesler now. If teams see him as having 3-4 solid years left why would they not wanna grab him right now before this seasons playoffs begin???
Do you really think a player like Kesler loses value between March and June? I sure don't - and in fact, you might have more suitors in the summer for that calibre of player. Him and Edler are probably the biggest chips that VAN have to deal with, there is no sense in rushing it right now.
He could be useful to them in this year's playoffs as well. As much as we've written them off, you never know what can happen come April. Always in the back of my mind... this is the exact same team that was very successful in November/December...
It will depend on the desperation of other clubs and what they offer. I'm not implying they trade him no matter what. They need to get a return on him of course, i just don't see how a team like Pittsburgh would offer any more at the draft than they would now as they approach the playoffs. The biggest problem is, even if he requested a trade (or obviously he's agreed to one), he's evidently given a list of teams he'd go to. Sure, that could change come summer and maybe expand, but it could limit the offers and potential bidding war.
All i'm saying is if they get a good offer before Wed, they shouldn't be shy and pull the trigger! I'll go on the record as saying i do not want to see this team make the playoffs this season. Our rich owner is the only one who'd benefit from what would surely be 2 more playoff home dates.
The only reason i think i'd like to see those 2 playoff games is i'm curious what the attendance would be if, like i predict, they're down 2-0 coming home. I would be willing to bet there'd be a bunch of empty seats. YES, even for a playoff game. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 12:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
From what I've read, it doesn't sound like Alex and Nuxfan are prepared for a rebuild, but it happens. Sometimes long and painful, sometimes unsuccessful.
Not sure what I wrote to make you think that?
Not that you said it explicitly, but I have never read the words "blow it up", until you wrote it later in this thread.
BTW, is Eddie Lack really your goalie for the future? Seems to me that BobbyLu is of the mentality that "Screw it. I'm getting paid well. I'll do my job, and have fun in the meantime."
Which is good enough for a goalie of his caliber, but it doesn't seem like the desire is there for the team to succeed. I could be wrong, and maybe Lack will be the next big thing.
Also, the twins are apparently having injury problems. No matter what the future scenario is for a rebuild, it seems to me that this is bad timing, should it become a spate.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2015. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 13:06:52
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Hey Shepsky! Luongo is at least as greasy-looking as Tortorella.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2015. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 13:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
BTW, is Eddie Lack really your goalie for the future? Seems to me that BobbyLu is of the mentality that "Screw it. I'm getting paid well. I'll do my job, and have fun in the meantime."
I think Lack is the potential goalie of the future, yes - at least as much as any 1-year goalie can be. I suspect that one of the significant factors in dealing Schneider last summer, was knowing that they had Lack waiting in the wings. He's been very high on the prospect chart, and in his first full year as an NHL goalie, has been very good overall - he's been in 25 games so far this year with a 2.09 GAA and .924 SV%, although Sunday was clearly not one of his better efforts.
VAN is surprisingly deep in goalie's - after Lack, there is Joe Cannata and Joachim Ericksson, both highly touted and working their way up through the ranks.
quote:
Also, the twins are apparently having injury problems. No matter what the future scenario is for a rebuild, it seems to me that this is bad timing, should it become a spate.
Agreed, they have very suddenly started to show their age. Coming into this season, Hank was on a 10 year ironman and Daniel had missed about 30 games in that same 10 year span - highly durable players, so its not like they've been injury plagued all along. VAN management will have to decide if this was just an off year for them where they had a few injuries to deal with (it happens), or if this is the beginning of the end. I still think they are trade-able, and if VAN does go on a blow-up course, they should probably be moved.
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Edited by - nuxfan on 03/03/2014 13:31:17 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 14:49:02
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Oil....Yup, i think a rebuild is necessary. Is Lack the answer to our goaltending moving forward? I don't know for sure but i'll tell you this much, he's looked pretty darn good so far. Of course, i do realize, goalies can do this early in their career and then have major struggles. Goalies really are a different breed though. Some goalies taken high in drafts struggle (ahem, Dipietro) and others turn out pretty darn good (Lehtonen). Regardless, it takes a few years to really know what a goalie can do. However, if the Canucks could deal Luongo, i'd be totally fine with them moving forward with Lack providing they could aquire a veteran to back him up / help his development. I think that's very important rather than running with a young guy on a rebuilding team.
I disagree on your evaluation of Luongo. I don't think he's simply saying "screw it, i'm getting paid well....." otherwise i don't think he'd have been so emotional last season when trading him failed to work. It's kinda ironic in that i think he'd love a shot at winning, yet he's actually wanting to be moved to Florida??? Also, i agree with nuxfan that i believe Mike Gillis is/was confident that Lack is/was going to be good otherwise i don't think he'd have dealt Schneider and would have eventually had to bite the bullet (prob last summer) and deal Luongo for ANYTHING.
The twins are having injury problems, absolutely. But you're not implying they're suddenly "injury prone" i hope? That would be jumping the gun a wee bit i think.
nuxfan - remember when we used to agree on everything?  Lol, i disagree as well with a trade of the Sedin's. NO WAY they get moved imo. I honestly don't think they'd want to be moved, but i could be wrong. With the stages in their careers that they're at, i think they will be willing to slowly fade into a 2nd line roll (where they wouldn't face the top 2 Dmen on a nightly basis) and mentor the youngsters. They've done so much for this organization and this city that i can't see them being dealt unless they came running to MG and begged for it, something i doubt will occur. They've got young families here and i think they're staying here and i'm ok with that. I'd love for them to be dealt while value is still there, but i just don't see it. Besides, you do need some vets on your roster to assist in a rebuilding / transition period and i can't think of two better people to mentor your future core than the twins. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 16:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
nuxfan - remember when we used to agree on everything? Lol, i disagree as well with a trade of the Sedin's. NO WAY they get moved imo. I honestly don't think they'd want to be moved, but i could be wrong. With the stages in their careers that they're at, i think they will be willing to slowly fade into a 2nd line roll (where they wouldn't face the top 2 Dmen on a nightly basis) and mentor the youngsters. They've done so much for this organization and this city that i can't see them being dealt unless they came running to MG and begged for it, something i doubt will occur. They've got young families here and i think they're staying here and i'm ok with that. I'd love for them to be dealt while value is still there, but i just don't see it. Besides, you do need some vets on your roster to assist in a rebuilding / transition period and i can't think of two better people to mentor your future core than the twins.
Yah, but at 14M... thats a lot of cap space to dedicate to your second line. I'd love to see them here too, and hope the are able to retire as Canucks... but if you're going to do a rebuild, its difficult with that much cap space dedicated to 2 players suddenly not in your core plan. And trust me, they would probably face the top defenders every night... because VAN would not have enough cap space to hire dangerous alternatives.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 16:36:53
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| My guess is they'd be hoping the young guys develope quickly whereby they're still on ELC's or possibly bridge deals while the Sedin's are still at 7M. Also, with the cap going up, 7M becomes less of a cap crusher though admittedly it's far from insignificant! The Sedin's deals are only 4 years and its possible that's part of the reason the club chose to return Horvat, Shinkaruk, etc to their junior clubs so as to not waste a year on their ELC's. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 21:33:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
My guess is they'd be hoping the young guys develope quickly whereby they're still on ELC's or possibly bridge deals while the Sedin's are still at 7M. Also, with the cap going up, 7M becomes less of a cap crusher though admittedly it's far from insignificant! The Sedin's deals are only 4 years and its possible that's part of the reason the club chose to return Horvat, Shinkaruk, etc to their junior clubs so as to not waste a year on their ELC's.
its not 7M... its 7M times 2, because the Sedin's are a package deal. I know a lot of teams keep a veteran around to help the youth, but its very difficult to build a competitive team when you have 14M committed to 2 guys that are not producing at the clip they used to, and are not part of your youth core. Or are you expecting Horvat/Shinkaruk/Jensen/someone else to magically form your top line on EL deals next season, while the Sedin's form a solid second line? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2014 : 23:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
its not 7M... its 7M times 2, because the Sedin's are a package deal. I know a lot of teams keep a veteran around to help the youth, but its very difficult to build a competitive team when you have 14M committed to 2 guys that are not producing at the clip they used to, and are not part of your youth core. Or are you expecting Horvat/Shinkaruk/Jensen/someone else to magically form your top line on EL deals next season, while the Sedin's form a solid second line?
Absolutely not. I expect the Canucks to be bad for a few years. These few years (2-4) would see the Sedin's likely remain as the top line with the youngsters behind them. Hopefully by year 3 or 4, some of the young guys (and any others they aquire, along with possible a FA or 2?) have become capable of producing as a top line. Don't get me wrong, the Canucks will still not be a strong team by any means, but if Horvat, Shinkaruk, etc can become similar success stories to Ryan Johansen and Jaden Schwartz, they'll deserve to take over the top roles. Who knows, maybe the Sedin's are still producing 3 or 4 years from now and Shinkaruk slots in as their trigger man? Let's face it, there's no way the Sedin's are as bad as they've been these past 2 months all of a sudden. They may be experiencing a drop off in production, but not that big that soon! I have to assume they'll improve on their recent stretch come next season. As for them still playing well by then, they've never been guys to rely on their skating so if that takes a hit with age it wouldn't be the end of the world. I see them having the type of game and skill that would actually lend pretty well to getting older. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 14:00:29
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Now it seems that Luongo is pretty pissed at Tortorella for not starting him in the Winter Classic vs. Ottawa. Might be a bit close to the deadline to spur a deal, but maybe this is just the latest in a string of confrontations between the goalie and the coach. (Purely ignorant speculation. Haven't actually heard anything to support it.)
Would there be any takers for Luongo at this point, though?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2015. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 14:06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
Now it seems that Luongo is pretty pissed at Tortorella for not starting him in the Winter Classic vs. Ottawa. Might be a bit close to the deadline to spur a deal, but maybe this is just the latest in a string of confrontations between the goalie and the coach. (Purely ignorant speculation. Haven't actually heard anything to support it.)
Would there be any takers for Luongo at this point, though?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2015.
speak of the devil - Luongo traded to FLA just moments ago.
Apparently getting Maarkstrom back in return, may be more details to come...
Update: oh! Maarkstrom AND Shaun Mattias in return. I like this trade for VAN |
Edited by - nuxfan on 03/04/2014 14:08:21 |
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Shepsky
Rookie
Canada
211 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 14:33:26
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SELLERS!!! they just sold one if their biggest assets.. goodbye Luongo
Every day is a great day for hockey
-Mario Lemieux |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 14:44:09
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Floodgates officially open?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2015. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 15:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Shepsky
SELLERS!!! they just sold one if their biggest assets.. goodbye Luongo
Biggest asset, and biggest albatross. I'm not sure if trading Luongo makes them "sellers", they've been shopping him for the better part of 2 years now. I wish it had happened before they were forced to trade away Schneider, but c'est la vie. For that contract, you take whatever comes up when it comes up.
If we see Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, or even Burrows move, then I'll be convinced that the rebuild is on. |
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Guest8014
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Posted - 03/04/2014 : 15:08:59
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how does gillis still have a job?
trading away two #1 goalies in luongo and Schneider for horvat (prospect), markstrom (bust) and Matthias (career high 24 pts = bust).
a goalie is the only guy to play the entire game, and they traded two starters for zero legit nhl talent. unbelievable.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 15:59:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
how does gillis still have a job?
trading away two #1 goalies in luongo and Schneider for horvat (prospect), markstrom (bust) and Matthias (career high 24 pts = bust).
a goalie is the only guy to play the entire game, and they traded two starters for zero legit nhl talent. unbelievable.
if you actually Watch hockey you would never say Markstrom is a bust, hes 24 and played a total 43 games in the NHL, and has been nothing but dominant in the AHL,
Shawn Matthias again yeah if you look at his stats and expect him to be a huge point getter then yeah you would say a bust but when you Watch him play he is a strong two way player with lots of upside left,
i agree they didn`t get full value for Luongo but they did get a great Goalie prospect and a solid top 9 player with some upside left back ,, not two busts as you would put it
Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Guest8014
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Posted - 03/04/2014 : 16:14:33
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they are both busts because neither address any of vancouvers needs. they lack scoring, they are a boring team that grind one maybe two goals a game. a "two way guy" is what exactly? every player has to play both ways. a two way guy is what you call a guy who is useless and cant score much.
markstrom might be dominant in the ahl, but unfortunately im an nhl fan and at the nhl level he's been a bust so far.
with luongo gone the combination of lack and markstrom is a downgrade, in the immediate term and potentially long term as theres no indication either will be as good as luongo.
Matthias doesn't add anything offensively so how do the canucks improve from this deal? oh, they also retain 15% of luongos contract.
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Guest3792
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Posted - 03/04/2014 : 17:08:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
they are both busts because neither address any of vancouvers needs. they lack scoring, they are a boring team that grind one maybe two goals a game. a "two way guy" is what exactly? every player has to play both ways. a two way guy is what you call a guy who is useless and cant score much.
markstrom might be dominant in the ahl, but unfortunately im an nhl fan and at the nhl level he's been a bust so far.
with luongo gone the combination of lack and markstrom is a downgrade, in the immediate term and potentially long term as theres no indication either will be as good as luongo.
Matthias doesn't add anything offensively so how do the canucks improve from this deal? oh, they also retain 15% of luongos contract.
A two guy is one of the most important pieces a team can have. If Toews, Datsyuk and Bergeron are useless and can't score much then how is it these 3 examples of 'two-way' players are considered some of the best in the NHL? How is it Toews has largely contributed to two Stanley Cups & two Gold Medals in the last 4 years? Either you largely underestimate the value of a two-way guy or you have no idea what one actually is. I'm not saying Matthias is going to be the next to be on the same plateau as these guys but if he is even close then Van picked up a serious piece. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 17:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
with luongo gone the combination of lack and markstrom is a downgrade, in the immediate term and potentially long term as theres no indication either will be as good as luongo.
This is not an immediate term deal. There is no doubt that FLA got the better current player in Luongo. But in 3 years time, when Luongo is 37 and Markstrom is 27... who knows. Quite frankly, given the contract that he carries and his age, I'm impressed that Gillis was able to get this much for Luongo. I would not have expected the same return last summer...
As for addressing lack of scoring, I don't think that they're done dealing, Luongo was not the only chip to play. The acquisition of Mattias - a solid 2-way centre - leads me to believe that Kesler's days as a Canukc may be numbered... and his return should be far better than Luongo's. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 18:06:44
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| Just watching TSN, and according to Bob and Dregs, Kesler's camp informed the Rangers today that they aren't among the clubs he is willing to waive his no trade clause for. I'm a big fan of Kesler's, and while I would love to have him on the Rangers, I can't say I'm disappointed to hear this considering the apparent asking price. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 19:03:00
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Canucks should be shopping the Sedins, not Kesler.....if i were shopping kesler, all 3 would be going, complete rebuild.
Since they apparently wanted Luongo gone, why the hell did they trade Schneider last summer.....they traded away an elite goalie in Luongo after trading away an elite goalie in Schneider....2 # 1`s...gone....what now ??...spend the next several years looking for an elite # 1 goalie ??.....they should have kept Schneider.
After Belfour played in leaf land in 2004.......the leafs have spent 10 years searching for an elite # 1 goalie...........the Flyers have spent the last 10 years looking for the same asset, ......they don`t come by that easy......the Canucks have sent away 2 in less than 1 year....mind blowing....is this suppose to help them ?????
As for Luongo, when he choose only a couple of teams...................... not many bargaining chips for Gillis. He certainly didn`t receive any player of Luongos pedigree ....thats for sure. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 21:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
how does gillis still have a job?
trading away two #1 goalies in luongo and Schneider for horvat (prospect), markstrom (bust) and Matthias (career high 24 pts = bust).
a goalie is the only guy to play the entire game, and they traded two starters for zero legit nhl talent. unbelievable.
It's not fair to look at this as a package deal. Obviously Gillis played hardball last year and overvalued Luongo and it didn't work out. It did however make him resolve his goaltending controversy by dealing Schneider instead. I would agree, I don't think he got enough in return but as good as Schneider was at the time, many, especially those who hate the Canucks, claimed Schneider was still unproven. Here's the thing....dealing Luongo (last year) would have been great, however with Luongo wanting Florida, it made it damn near impossible as the Florida ownership group wasn't willing spend the money. Enter new owners at the start of this year (Vincent Viola) who have money to burn and are willing to do so and it's not that shocking that Lu is in Fla now.
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
if you actually Watch hockey you would never say Markstrom is a bust, hes 24 and played a total 43 games in the NHL, and has been nothing but dominant in the AHL
Pasty, that's not entirely accurate. I will say, last year at this time, Markstrom was still considered one of, if not THE, top goalie prospects in the world. He's struggled in his NHL stints and even in the AHL this year. He's not been sharp. I'm hoping a change of organizations, a new goalie coach and simply a fresh start, will possibly bring out the potential in this kid? Even if he completely bombs, at this point, I'm shocked we were able to get him in the Luongo deal. Most fans around here were expecting a 7th rounder, a bag of pucks or a few rolls of tape?
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
they are both busts because neither address any of vancouvers needs. they lack scoring, they are a boring team that grind one maybe two goals a game.
So far, Markstrom is a bust, I'd agree, though goalies often tend to develop / mature late so there is some upside there. Matthias is not a bust. Here's a scouting report on him - "Owns good size, two-way acumen, leadership qualities and face-off skills. Isn't a speedster but he does skate well. Versatile, he can play center or wing. Lanky, he has a great reach and is the type of player coaches lean heavily on late in games." Doesn't sound like a guy who was projected as a top line scorer really does it, so I don't think that was the reason for his acquisition. I'm shocked enough the got Markstrom so to add another piece is just a bonus.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
with luongo gone the combination of lack and markstrom is a downgrade, in the immediate term and potentially long term as theres no indication either will be as good as luongo.
Matthias doesn't add anything offensively so how do the canucks improve from this deal? oh, they also retain 15% of luongos contract.
You're spot on with the notion that this is a downgrade today. I'm not sure how much you follow hockey so don't take this the wrong way, but that's exactly how trades like this go down. When a team decides to rebuild/get younger/re-tool (pick your poison), they aren't guaranteed the prospects or youngsters they get in return will pan out. THAT, is a chance you take. This case (the very unique Luongo situation) is even more obviously like that as the Canucks were handcuffed by his NTC and the large deal that was made worse than when it was signed when the NHL decided to change their rules regarding these front loaded deals (but that's another topic).
So, how do the Canucks improve from this deal? They may not, except for financially AND they get rid of a guy who really wanted out and did so for some time. I cannot stress enough how well I think Luongo dealt with what's gone on the past couple of years by the way. Always liked the guy and wish him nothing but the best. Actually wish he'd gone somewhere with a better shot at winning the cup. Keep in mind, if Markstrom finds his game and lives up to or close to his original expectations / projections, the Canucks will have done very well in this deal!
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Canucks should be shopping the Sedins, not Kesler.....if i were shopping kesler, all 3 would be going, complete rebuild.
I think I touched on this earlier with nuxfan? Unless the Sedin's come asking to be moved, something I just don't see them doing, then they're not going anywhere. You need to have some veteran experience around your youngsters and there's no better guys than the Sedin's IMO to do just that. Yeah, at 14M between the 2, that's a lot, but it's gonna take 3 or 4 years before the team is relevant again and needing to sign their new young guys to larger deals (by then the Sedin's deals are done).
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Since they apparently wanted Luongo gone, why the hell did they trade Schneider last summer.....they traded away an elite goalie in Luongo after trading away an elite goalie in Schneider....2 # 1`s...gone....what now ??...spend the next several years looking for an elite # 1 goalie ??.....they should have kept Schneider.
See above, they tried to trade Luongo, it didn't work. Again, see above.
Here's the thing I love. The past two years, all the haters had the attitude that "Luongo's ever the hill", "Luongo's not good anymore", "Luongo can't win the big one",etc. NOW, and I'm not saying it's you Duke as I can't recall your opinion on Lu a year or so ago, most of them are calling the Canucks crazy for dealing him as he's "elite". Same goes for Schneider. When us Canucks fans talked about him as a starter for the past couple of years, all we heard was "he's unproven", "sample size too small", etc. Yet now that he's been dealt, he's "elite". Lol, it's kinda funny. But you know the saying....haters gonna hate!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 21:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Canucks should be shopping the Sedins, not Kesler.....if i were shopping kesler, all 3 would be going, complete rebuild.
MG may be shopping them all, who knows. I doubt the Sedin's are going anywhere, I agree with Alex that they are likely to finish their careers (for better or worse) in VAN. Beyond hockey abilities, they are extremely deep in the local community and a big part of Vancouver.
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Since they apparently wanted Luongo gone, why the hell did they trade Schneider last summer.....they traded away an elite goalie in Luongo after trading away an elite goalie in Schneider....2 # 1`s...gone....what now ??...spend the next several years looking for an elite # 1 goalie ??.....they should have kept Schneider.
I think this decision was beat to death in another thread last summer.
- Canucks had to trade 1 goalie last summer
- Luongo was unmovable last summer
- therefore, must deal Schneider
You can knock it all you like (and we did), but with the cap VAN could not afford both. Its a business, you make the decision you have to make, and that was it.
MG was interviewed before tonight's game, and he was pretty clear that the deal VAN got today was nowhere in sight last summer... take it for what its worth. I tend to think he's telling the truth, because if this deal were around last year he would have been all over it IMO.
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After Belfour played in leaf land in 2004.......the leafs have spent 10 years searching for an elite # 1 goalie...........the Flyers have spent the last 10 years looking for the same asset, ......they don`t come by that easy......the Canucks have sent away 2 in less than 1 year....mind blowing....is this suppose to help them ?????
The Canucks have a lot of depth in goal - Luongo and Schneider were great goalies, but Lack is already showing a lot of promise in his first season. They now have Markstrom, who I am certainly willing to give a chance. And they have Joe Cannata on the farm as well, also highly touted.
We'll see what happens, but I right now goaltending is the least of the Canuck's issues.
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As for Luongo, when he choose only a couple of teams...................... not many bargaining chips for Gillis. He certainly didn`t receive any player of Luongos pedigree ....thats for sure.
No one was expecting him to get value back. Last year most people in Vancouver would have considered a late round draft pick for Luongo as a successful trade - the contract was the gigantic problem. The return that MG got today is more than I ever expected for Luongo, and I'm glad that its finally done. I'll miss Luongo as a goalie, but I won't miss the drama. |
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Guest8014
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Posted - 03/04/2014 : 21:24:55
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pasty....you say markstrom is dominant in ahl? he has a 59-58-7 record in the ahl, only winning more than 50% of games in 1 of 4 seasons. has the standard for dominant changed or am I missing something? he used to be an elite prospect, now a prospect....but at least with the canucks he's only one game away from being #1 goalie!
wouldn't surprise me if gillis trades lack tomorrow! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 21:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ryan93
Just watching TSN, and according to Bob and Dregs, Kesler's camp informed the Rangers today that they aren't among the clubs he is willing to waive his no trade clause for. I'm a big fan of Kesler's, and while I would love to have him on the Rangers, I can't say I'm disappointed to hear this considering the apparent asking price.
I agree, the asking price is high - but it looks like VAN will get it as well if he gets traded, Kesler is easily the most coveted guy in play at this year's trade deadline.
Reports from PIT had them offering Sutter, a 1st round, a 3rd round, and one of 2 defense prospects (Despres or Domoulin). Reports of out PHI indicate one of Couturier or Schenn would come the other way in a package (I'd prefer Couturier).
I hate to lose Kesler, but I can't argue with that kind of return either.
Reports also state that PHI is interested in a Kesler+Edler deal. If that happens, it will be the blockbuster of the season. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2014 : 23:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
I agree, the asking price is high - but it looks like VAN will get it as well if he gets traded, Kesler is easily the most coveted guy in play at this year's trade deadline.
Reports from PIT had them offering Sutter, a 1st round, a 3rd round, and one of 2 defense prospects (Despres or Domoulin). Reports of out PHI indicate one of Couturier or Schenn would come the other way in a package (I'd prefer Couturier).
I hate to lose Kesler, but I can't argue with that kind of return either.
Reports also state that PHI is interested in a Kesler+Edler deal. If that happens, it will be the blockbuster of the season.
The offer from Pitt was their initial offer allegedly. NO WAY Gillis take that. Despres/Dumoulin are likely steady 2nd pairing dmen unless they surprise and progress better. Neither has anything exciting to offer but could be steady. Sutter is likely not much more than a 3rd line center and even a 1st from Pitt would be just slightly better than an early 2nd considering where they'd pick. Everything I've read says that Gillis would likely be countering and asking for D. Pouliot (instead of either of those dmen) and/or possibly Beau Bennett (either instead of Sutter or possibly BOTH!). Others yet seem to think he'd ask for Olli Maatta but I think he's close to untouchable, however, Gillis isn't likely dying to get dmen as much as he is a forward or two? If he figures he can deal Edler for a forward, then maybe Pouliot becomes the center piece of a deal with the Canucks?
Philly is rumoured to NOT want to include Couturier in any deal and there's even talk they're only in this to drive the price up for Pittsburgh?
FWIW, just heard that the Kesler talk is heating up and Gillis may, prob only on an overpay, consider trading him within the western conference? Only problem I see is that Kesler is apparently asking for either Pittsburgh or Philly. Anaheim and Chicago seem to be the two obvious ones. Both are excellent teams but both could use a better 2nd line C in a bad way. Both also have the assets that could get a deal done, IF, and that's a big IF, they're willing to roll the dice and pay the asking price! I have to assume a deal with Chicago would center around Teravainen (I think Saad is close to untouchable) and one with Anaheim around Etem or Silfverberg (as starters). |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 05:59:26
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Vancouver is fun to watch, that's for sure.
Not since Bobby Clarke and Eric Lindros, have I seen a star player of this magnitude treated so badly, and now, FINALLY, after years of rumours and impending trades . . . Luongo is going back to Florida.
I wish the guy well.
As for Kesler . . . he really is a juicy piece of property. He's almost certain to be his next team's top line centre, and he's a top defensive forward to boot . . . he plays a pretty complete game. That being said, he's not perfect - the injury bug has dogged him, so it's a risk. But one I'd certainly take as a Toronto GM.
I disagree with many of the hockey commentators on radio and TV translating the Canucks request of "1 centre, 1 d-man, 1 prospect" into what for a team like the Leafs would be a potential Kadri, Gardiner and prospect. For me, as good as Kesler is, there is still a bit of injury trouble risk, and I don't think that (in the Leafs case) we'd have to throw in as good a d-man (with potential) as Gardiner, if Kadri is going the other way. But that's just me.
I would almost be ok with Bozak and Gardiner going the other way, actually. Kesler is an upgrade no matter which way you slice it, and, having see Kesler and Kessel play together . . . throws the "but the chemistry!!!" issue out the window.
Bottom line for the Leafs though - this deal is extremely unlikely (I see Philly and Pittsburgh fighting over Kesler in the rumour mill, and I believe it). And, if any deal, minor or major, is to be made, I'd want a solid "defensive" defenceman coming to the Leafs. If the Leafs could ever pry out Edler from Buffalo . . . this might be my #1 trade choice.
But that likely won't happen either.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 06:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
pasty....you say markstrom is dominant in ahl? he has a 59-58-7 record in the ahl, only winning more than 50% of games in 1 of 4 seasons. has the standard for dominant changed or am I missing something? he used to be an elite prospect, now a prospect....but at least with the canucks he's only one game away from being #1 goalie!
wouldn't surprise me if gillis trades lack tomorrow!
wow you went and looked at the only stat that supports your argument, what about his worst sv% in the AHL since his rookie year is .918, and for a career as an AHLer his sv% is over 920? oh and his rookie sv% .907 which is pretty good,
Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 08:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I disagree with many of the hockey commentators on radio and TV translating the Canucks request of "1 centre, 1 d-man, 1 prospect" into what for a team like the Leafs would be a potential Kadri, Gardiner and prospect. For me, as good as Kesler is, there is still a bit of injury trouble risk, and I don't think that (in the Leafs case) we'd have to throw in as good a d-man (with potential) as Gardiner, if Kadri is going the other way. But that's just me.
I would almost be ok with Bozak and Gardiner going the other way, actually. Kesler is an upgrade no matter which way you slice it, and, having see Kesler and Kessel play together . . . throws the "but the chemistry!!!" issue out the window.
Slozo, the actual rumoured asking price is not a center, a dman and a prospect. It's actually 1 NHL forward (20-25, already playing with upside), 1 high end prospect and a 1st round pick. That's what the rumoured package would need to involve. Maybe the proposal of Kadri, Gardiner and a prospect is too much for Kesler alone (though i can guarantee you it wouldn't get you Kes and Edler)? You've got Kadri filling one of the criteria, a prospect is another, but Gardiner is not a 1st rounder. Well, he WAS, but i'm not exactly sure that qualifies and would satisfy Gillis, though i think it prob would. Question is, would Gillis take him over the Leafs #1 this year? Gardiner has struggled mightily lately from what i read, plus it's not D that Gillis is really after so it'd be interesting. Oh, and i really doubt any deal between these two would get done without Kadri. No way the Canucks would take Bozak and Gardiner imo.
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Bottom line for the Leafs though - this deal is extremely unlikely (I see Philly and Pittsburgh fighting over Kesler in the rumour mill, and I believe it). And, if any deal, minor or major, is to be made, I'd want a solid "defensive" defenceman coming to the Leafs. If the Leafs could ever pry out Edler from Buffalo . . . this might be my #1 trade choice.
But that likely won't happen either.
Were you meaning Myers from Buffalo? Or Edler from Van? Or someone else? |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 09:15:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Sutter is likely not much more than a 3rd line center
I remember not too long ago that we said the same thing about Kesler... Brandon Sutter has turned into a solid NHL player, and has put up decent points with PIT, despite playing mainly on the 3rd line behind Crosby and Malkin. He's only 25, lots of years to still improve.
As part of a larger package, I would not mind getting Sutter. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 09:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Sutter is likely not much more than a 3rd line center
I remember not too long ago that we said the same thing about Kesler... Brandon Sutter has turned into a solid NHL player, and has put up decent points with PIT, despite playing mainly on the 3rd line behind Crosby and Malkin. He's only 25, lots of years to still improve.
As part of a larger package, I would not mind getting Sutter.
I too wouldn't mind him, but if he's the center piece to a deal, Gillis should say NO F______ WAY! If it's Sutter, Despres and a pick, we get fleeced. Swap Despres and Pouliot and it's pretty even. Pouliot has much higher upside than Despres who's pegged as a second pairing kind of guy while Pouliot is a puck moving / PP type guy with defensive ability as well (top pairing). |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 10:03:19
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Were you meaning Myers from Buffalo? Or Edler from Van? Or someone else?
[/quote]
Goodness, I have Edler on the brain here, sorry. I meant Ehrhoff, the former Canuck now playing for Buffalo. I would love it if the Leafs could pry away Ehrhoff from Buffalo (not going to happen, I know). Myers is DEFINITELY never happening (I'd think).
quote:
Slozo, the actual rumoured asking price is not a center, a dman and a prospect. It's actually 1 NHL forward (20-25, already playing with upside), 1 high end prospect and a 1st round pick. That's what the rumoured package would need to involve. Maybe the proposal of Kadri, Gardiner and a prospect is too much for Kesler alone (though i can guarantee you it wouldn't get you Kes and Edler)? You've got Kadri filling one of the criteria, a prospect is another, but Gardiner is not a 1st rounder. Well, he WAS, but i'm not exactly sure that qualifies and would satisfy Gillis, though i think it prob would. Question is, would Gillis take him over the Leafs #1 this year? Gardiner has struggled mightily lately from what i read, plus it's not D that Gillis is really after so it'd be interesting. Oh, and i really doubt any deal between these two would get done without Kadri. No way the Canucks would take Bozak and Gardiner imo. [/quote]
Mm. You could be right, but . . . Gardiner has a HUGE offensive upside, trust me - and he is a more sought after guy than Luke Schenn ever was. I think he has real value and upside, especially when put in the right situation on a good team, paired with a true defensive guy.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2014 : 10:33:54
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| There hasn't been much Kesler talk on TSN. It's been hours since I've heard his name mentioned. |
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Topic |
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Vancouver Canucks: Buyers or Sellers? 
