| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
FutureKesler
Rookie
Canada
122 Posts |
 Posted - 04/27/2015 : 17:08:44
|
With the Canucks having suffered another painful ending to a season one wonders what lies in the future. What are realistic expectations for Bo Horvat, who had an excellent end to the year, and are any young players ready to make the jump to the big team next season? Do any of "The Core" get moved on and replaced?
Ryan Kesler is a BEAST!
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2015 : 21:59:25
|
First of all, I'm not sure that this ending was a painful one. Sure, they didn't get past Calgary, and should not be dropping games when up 3-0... but did this team underachieve? There were many people that didn't think they would get into the playoffs, and a lot of people called a Calgary win in the first round. The fact that they made it to the playoffs at all should be considered some sort of success after last year's fiasco. I think they ended up exactly where they should have - a team good enough to squeak into the playoffs, but not good enough to do damage in a very tough western conference.
As for Horvat, I think the potential bar went up for him after this season. He showed that he is a solid defensive forward, great in the faceoff circle and reliable at times when the game is on the line. However, he also showed that he can score, and he's capable of playing a big body game as well. Only 19 years old, he's still growing and will achieve far more. I think he's a shoe in for second line centre next year, and will blossom when he gets a chance to play with some better skilled forwards. The fact that he panned out so well so early, its a bit easier to stomach losing Schneider.
As for the rest - won't know until September. The Canucks should be learning that they have to get younger and tougher, and no doubt will try to do so next year. I would think that Virtanen and Jensen will get serious consideration to make the team, Shinkaruk perhaps as well. On the blue line, Corrado has been knocking at the door for a while. Brendan Gaunce on the 3rd or 4th line?
I'd like to see them keep Vrbata, Kassian, Higgins, Hansen, Bonino (in a new 3rd line centre role) for sure. The Sedin's will retire as Canucks. Hamhuis, Edler, Tanev, Sbisa are not going anywhere. However, I think that Vey and Richardson may be on the way out. I think they might consider moving Bieksa for the right price - he's getting older, and I think he's beginning to lose some of the edge that made him so effective a few years back. Same with Burrows. I'm on the fence about Matthias.
Should be another interesting summer in Van-land. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 04/27/2015 22:01:34 |
 |
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2015 : 10:01:38
|
The way I see it.....
1. Sedin's are going nowhere. They will retire Canucks and still have some good years left in them. No, not ppg, not Art Ross, not Lindsay worthy, etc, but still productive. Their game has never been based on speed and until their skills begin to diminish, something there's been no real evidence of, they will contribute. Ideally, they'll become the second line at some point, when hopefully some of the youth produce well enough to take over the number 1 role!
2. Bieksa will be asked to waive his NTC. He doesn't have to, nor does he seem to want to by any means, but he also has to be realistic and understand that unless he puts this past year behind him and "finds his game" again, he's not going to be offered a new deal at the end of next year anyway? I understand he likes it here and doesn't want to move his family but unless he's prepared to retire after next year, he's not likely going to get an offer to stay. He may also realize that if he waives now, he could get dealt to a team for a year (or part there of) and then end up not resigning there either? This means up and moving his family twice in two years, something at this stage of his career may not be very appealing?
3. Horvat, as mentioned by nuxfan, had a great season. He will continue to build on that and I'd love to see him in the 2nd line roll, but will they hand him that over Bonino, a guy they dealt Kesler for? He may yet have to play a full year on the 3rd line or possibly see spot duty on the wing on line 2, though with his faceoff skills, they'd prob prefer to have him at C. Will be interesting to see what happens here.
4. This is more of a hope - I'm hoping at least 2 of the youngsters make the squad and are allowed to learn on the job. I'm not sold on Jensen, but I'm okay with giving him, Baertschi, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Virtanen and McCann a good long look and seeing who's ready to make the step up to the big league! I'm hearing really good things about McCann and the season he had and this gets my hopes up that we've found a bit of a gem with a later first round pick 24th overall)!
5. Miller is shopped. There may be no takers at the dollar amount he is making but I think they will look into moving him. I think that Lack is good enough to carry the load for the time being, though I don't think he's ever going to be "elite". Perhaps he gets us through a rebuild/retool until a youngster like Demko takes the next step?
6. Richardson, Mathias and Vey are all likely done. Possibly Richardson or Vey stays, but the Canucks are actually not in a great position cap-wise to retain most of these guys. Vey is RFA and may be able to be worked in but Richardson and Mathias are unlikely after the Sbisa and Dorsett signings.
7. Kassian was unfortunate to have the back issue and I think he will come back healthy and take another step. He may never be "Milan Lucic in his prime" good, but he should be a decent power forward able to play in a top 6 roll I'd think?
8. Burrows I think stays. He may end up more as a 3rd liner (and still sub in here and there with the twins) but his PK skills are still there and he can contribute as the pot stirrer that he is!
9. Weber (RFA) may want too big of a raise to be kept at this point? He's okay, but the Canucks really need to somehow find / draft / groom / trade for a true PP quarterback, something they've needed for many years!
10. Markstrom is likely traded at the draft. Unless they can rid themselves of Miller, I can't see any reason to hang onto this guy. He may go all Hamburgler / Dubnyk on the Canucks and Panthers and become a solid goalie, but at this point, there's no room for him.
11. The Canucks miss the playoffs next year. You have to expect the Kings to return and Colorado can't be as bad as they were this year can they? Dallas is getting better and better as well. Too many teams in the west are capable of making it that next year will prove too tough for Vancouver (then again, I thought they'd miss this year?).
12. They finish 25th and WIN the Auston Matthews / Jesse Puljujarvi lottery! (fingers crossed)  |
|
|
|
FutureKesler
Rookie
Canada
122 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2015 : 21:39:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
The way I see it.....
1. Sedin's are going nowhere. They will retire Canucks and still have some good years left in them. No, not ppg, not Art Ross, not Lindsay worthy, etc, but still productive. Their game has never been based on speed and until their skills begin to diminish, something there's been no real evidence of, they will contribute. Ideally, they'll become the second line at some point, when hopefully some of the youth produce well enough to take over the number 1 role!
2. Bieksa will be asked to waive his NTC. He doesn't have to, nor does he seem to want to by any means, but he also has to be realistic and understand that unless he puts this past year behind him and "finds his game" again, he's not going to be offered a new deal at the end of next year anyway? I understand he likes it here and doesn't want to move his family but unless he's prepared to retire after next year, he's not likely going to get an offer to stay. He may also realize that if he waives now, he could get dealt to a team for a year (or part there of) and then end up not resigning there either? This means up and moving his family twice in two years, something at this stage of his career may not be very appealing?
3. Horvat, as mentioned by nuxfan, had a great season. He will continue to build on that and I'd love to see him in the 2nd line roll, but will they hand him that over Bonino, a guy they dealt Kesler for? He may yet have to play a full year on the 3rd line or possibly see spot duty on the wing on line 2, though with his faceoff skills, they'd prob prefer to have him at C. Will be interesting to see what happens here.
4. This is more of a hope - I'm hoping at least 2 of the youngsters make the squad and are allowed to learn on the job. I'm not sold on Jensen, but I'm okay with giving him, Baertschi, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Virtanen and McCann a good long look and seeing who's ready to make the step up to the big league! I'm hearing really good things about McCann and the season he had and this gets my hopes up that we've found a bit of a gem with a later first round pick 24th overall)!
5. Miller is shopped. There may be no takers at the dollar amount he is making but I think they will look into moving him. I think that Lack is good enough to carry the load for the time being, though I don't think he's ever going to be "elite". Perhaps he gets us through a rebuild/retool until a youngster like Demko takes the next step?
6. Richardson, Mathias and Vey are all likely done. Possibly Richardson or Vey stays, but the Canucks are actually not in a great position cap-wise to retain most of these guys. Vey is RFA and may be able to be worked in but Richardson and Mathias are unlikely after the Sbisa and Dorsett signings.
7. Kassian was unfortunate to have the back issue and I think he will come back healthy and take another step. He may never be "Milan Lucic in his prime" good, but he should be a decent power forward able to play in a top 6 roll I'd think?
8. Burrows I think stays. He may end up more as a 3rd liner (and still sub in here and there with the twins) but his PK skills are still there and he can contribute as the pot stirrer that he is!
9. Weber (RFA) may want too big of a raise to be kept at this point? He's okay, but the Canucks really need to somehow find / draft / groom / trade for a true PP quarterback, something they've needed for many years!
10. Markstrom is likely traded at the draft. Unless they can rid themselves of Miller, I can't see any reason to hang onto this guy. He may go all Hamburgler / Dubnyk on the Canucks and Panthers and become a solid goalie, but at this point, there's no room for him.
11. The Canucks miss the playoffs next year. You have to expect the Kings to return and Colorado can't be as bad as they were this year can they? Dallas is getting better and better as well. Too many teams in the west are capable of making it that next year will prove too tough for Vancouver (then again, I thought they'd miss this year?).
12. They finish 25th and WIN the Auston Matthews / Jesse Puljujarvi lottery! (fingers crossed)
9. Adam Clendening will hopefully develop into that PP anchor, he's still young and is a right hand shot. Seems like a perfect replacement for Weber. Also Corrado might be able to fill that role.
12. PLEASE LET THAT HAPPEN
Ryan Kesler is a BEAST! |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 11:32:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by FutureKesler
9. Adam Clendening will hopefully develop into that PP anchor, he's still young and is a right hand shot. Seems like a perfect replacement for Weber. Also Corrado might be able to fill that role.
12. PLEASE LET THAT HAPPEN
Ryan Kesler is a BEAST!
I don't think the chances are very good of Clendening becoming a true PP quarterback, at least not the kind I'm looking for. You see, the type of guy I want to see here is a true #1, puck moving, PPQB all around solid dman! Something we haven't had here in almost forever! Guys like this don't get traded for Gustav Forsling!
I want a Shea Weber / Duncan Keith / PK Subban / Z. Chara type guy! I know, to get one of these is not easy and could require finishing in the bottom 3 or 4 for a season and drafting well, however, good drafting/scouting can get you a guy too as seen below!
PK Subban - 2nd round / 43rd overall 2007
S. Weber - 2nd round / 49th overall 2003
D. Keith - 2nd round / 54th overall 2002
A few years ago, I thought Alex Edler was gonna be one of those guys but he basically hit a wall in his development / growth as a dman and never really came close. It's why I was hoping we could have gotten D. Poulliot from Pitts in a trade for Kesler (which was discussed in length all over the internet).
Prove me wrong Adam Clendening, please go ahead and prove me wrong, however, I'm not just looking for a Y. Weber replacement!
|
|
|
|
FutureKesler
Rookie
Canada
122 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 19:14:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by FutureKesler
9. Adam Clendening will hopefully develop into that PP anchor, he's still young and is a right hand shot. Seems like a perfect replacement for Weber. Also Corrado might be able to fill that role.
12. PLEASE LET THAT HAPPEN
Ryan Kesler is a BEAST!
I don't think the chances are very good of Clendening becoming a true PP quarterback, at least not the kind I'm looking for. You see, the type of guy I want to see here is a true #1, puck moving, PPQB all around solid dman! Something we haven't had here in almost forever! Guys like this don't get traded for Gustav Forsling!
I want a Shea Weber / Duncan Keith / PK Subban / Z. Chara type guy! I know, to get one of these is not easy and could require finishing in the bottom 3 or 4 for a season and drafting well, however, good drafting/scouting can get you a guy too as seen below!
PK Subban - 2nd round / 43rd overall 2007
S. Weber - 2nd round / 49th overall 2003
D. Keith - 2nd round / 54th overall 2002
A few years ago, I thought Alex Edler was gonna be one of those guys but he basically hit a wall in his development / growth as a dman and never really came close. It's why I was hoping we could have gotten D. Poulliot from Pitts in a trade for Kesler (which was discussed in length all over the internet).
Prove me wrong Adam Clendening, please go ahead and prove me wrong, however, I'm not just looking for a Y. Weber replacement!
Isn't every team looking for a player like that? If by some miracle the Canucks traded up and took Noah Hanifan that problem is solved. He's an amazing defenseman. I know Clendening isn't a #1 guy but I think he can be an upgrade on Yannick Weber, maybe a guy similar to Tyson Barrie. Who was drafted in the 3rd round btw.
Ryan Kesler is a BEAST! |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2015 : 09:53:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by FutureKesler
Isn't every team looking for a player like that? If by some miracle the Canucks traded up and took Noah Hanifan that problem is solved. He's an amazing defenseman. I know Clendening isn't a #1 guy but I think he can be an upgrade on Yannick Weber, maybe a guy similar to Tyson Barrie. Who was drafted in the 3rd round btw.
Ryan Kesler is a BEAST!
Very true, every team would like guys like these. However, some already have one! That's what I want the Canucks to go and get, be it a trade, draft/develop, etc, I don't care. I'm just sick of them being without that PPQB for what seems like forever!
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2015 : 10:05:00
|
I think the Sedins retire as Canucks, they're going nowhere . . . what's interesting, is if they want to add a top tier player that may be available. This might be the summer to swing a huge deal.
Do the Canucks want to go for a Kessel or Phaneuf from Toronto? A Marleau? One of the top 6 from Boston maybe (not Bergeron)? O'Reilly? There are a LOT of possibilities . . .
If I were the Vancouver GM, no way would I move Miller. I keep him, write it off as an off year, and you know he'll be better. He IS a very good goalie, and I am certain he will have a couple of good years still . . . and you still want stability.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2015 : 13:22:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I think the Sedins retire as Canucks, they're going nowhere . . . what's interesting, is if they want to add a top tier player that may be available. This might be the summer to swing a huge deal.
Do the Canucks want to go for a Kessel or Phaneuf from Toronto? A Marleau? One of the top 6 from Boston maybe (not Bergeron)? O'Reilly? There are a LOT of possibilities . . .
If I were the Vancouver GM, no way would I move Miller. I keep him, write it off as an off year, and you know he'll be better. He IS a very good goalie, and I am certain he will have a couple of good years still . . . and you still want stability.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
Did Ryan Miller have an off year? His numbers for wins, GAA, SV% were pretty much in line with his career averages. Injuries and a good season from Lack restricted him to 45 games played, which has been his average over the past few years. Going on 35, I don't expect his numbers to get better at this point in his career...
I really don't think the Sedins are going anywhere. They both finished top-15 in the league in scoring again this year (Daniel in the top 10), and looked refreshed and engaged most of the year. They are such a huge part of the team on and off the ice and in the community. Trading the Sedin's would be management signal that a major overhaul was underway, and would be followed be a lot more trades IMO. I suspect that this current contract will be their last (both will be 37/38 when they expire), and the team will ride them into the sunset and retire both their numbers when they're done.
I hope the Canucks are not interested in Kessel and/or Phaneuf, and probably not a Marleau. They have indicated repeatedly that they are interested in getting younger not older. Any deals they make are likely to be targeted at youth in general. |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2015 : 09:51:19
|
Are you guys suggesting Miller be shopped. I actually thought he was the brightest star of the early Canucks season and when he was injured is when they came back down to earth. No knock on Lack as he played well as well, but Vancouver is in great shape Goaltending wise if Miller is the starter and lack plays 35-40 % of the games. These 2 can win games, but if Lack wants to be a starter I suggest looking for another proven backup for a few years and trading him, because I don't think he is a #1 truly.
I also agree the Sedin's are likely lifer's at this point for Vancouver, and why not, they are 2 players that have kept this team relevant for a decade and although a drop off is expected, I don't think a steep drop off will happen for a few years, so Vancouver can ride these guys for a few more years. Vrbata was a great pick up but only sign till end of next season and he is also aging, with a few more good years left. That's the good. The bad is the middle of the pack forwards with the unrealized potential of Horvat and thin depth forwards behind them. Can't believe that as far as depth goes Burrows, Higgins and Bonino is 4-5-6 on the points list in Vancouver, as they wouldn't crack the top 6 of my team. Heck the guys playing on my teams bottom 6 might play those guys out of bottom forward playing time. They are role playing forwards but don't belong on the top 6.
The lack of a true #1 #2 defenseman to me is the biggest weakness for Vancouver. As good as Edler, Beiksa, Hamhuis are they are 3-4-5 defenseman on other teams and the depth behind them is only good enough to replace them, not elevate past them. To give you an example the top 5 scoring defenseman in Vancouver equal the top 2 players on my team (Ottawa) Calgary, Montreal, Washington, St Louis, Nashville's top 2 defenseman and have almost as many points as the whole of the defensive core for Vancouver. Same with the top 3 for Tampa, Winnipeg, San Jose, Philly, Rangers, NYI, LA, Wings, Dallas, Boston, Ducks. The common theme here is all of these teams are either in the Playoffs or were the last teams fighting for the final spots. No doubt Vancouver was the weakest team in the playoffs for backend scoring this season. Defensive depth has always been Vancouvers problem, but lack of scoring from the backend is the absolute biggest weakness for Vancouver. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 05/02/2015 09:54:05 |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2015 : 09:52:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Are you guys suggesting Miller be shopped.
I can't speak for others, but I am suggesting that he be shopped. Miller was brought in to mentor Lack (or other young goalies), he is a stopgap for this team until someone younger is ready. I think Lack showed he can be the regular starting goaltender for VAN - he was marvelous down the stretch, and played well in the first few games in the playoffs. He has improved every year, and is now ready to take the next step. Equally important would be the 6M that they pay Miller could be used elsewhere - some of it on a reliable backup, but they have other holes to fill.
quote:
I also agree the Sedin's are likely lifer's at this point for Vancouver, and why not, they are 2 players that have kept this team relevant for a decade and although a drop off is expected, I don't think a steep drop off will happen for a few years, so Vancouver can ride these guys for a few more years. Vrbata was a great pick up but only sign till end of next season and he is also aging, with a few more good years left. That's the good. The bad is the middle of the pack forwards with the unrealized potential of Horvat and thin depth forwards behind them. Can't believe that as far as depth goes Burrows, Higgins and Bonino is 4-5-6 on the points list in Vancouver, as they wouldn't crack the top 6 of my team. Heck the guys playing on my teams bottom 6 might play those guys out of bottom forward playing time. They are role playing forwards but don't belong on the top 6.
After the top line, the defined roles get pretty muddy. Burrows regularly moves between the top 3 lines, Higgins between the bottom 3, and Bonino is IMO miscast as a second line centre (at this stage in his career). But I would agree, this is not what I would consider a solid second line in the NHL. Scoring wise, don't read too much into their point totals as an indicator of value - Desjardins is very much a "roll 4 lines evenly" coach, so the scoring is generally pretty balanced - after the top line, the next 9 forwards were pretty close in scoring.
There is bound to be a shakeup in the forward corps this summer. I would not be surprised to see Higgins and Burrows both shopped - both are reliable players with offensive punch, and as a bonus both are premier PK specialists. Bonino will stay, but needs to perform next season as a 3rd line centre.
They will almost certainly see what is available via trade or free agent, but I think the biggest boost will be via trying out their young talent - Horvat is a shoe-in, Kassian was missed at the end and will be back, Jensen/Shinkaruk/Virtanen/Cassels will all get legimate shots and long looks in the fall. Its been a long time since there was this much talent in the waiting blocks, I'm pretty exicted.
quote:
The lack of a true #1 #2 defenseman to me is the biggest weakness for Vancouver. As good as Edler, Beiksa, Hamhuis are they are 3-4-5 defenseman on other teams and the depth behind them is only good enough to replace them, not elevate past them. To give you an example the top 5 scoring defenseman in Vancouver equal the top 2 players on my team (Ottawa) Calgary, Montreal, Washington, St Louis, Nashville's top 2 defenseman and have almost as many points as the whole of the defensive core for Vancouver. Same with the top 3 for Tampa, Winnipeg, San Jose, Philly, Rangers, NYI, LA, Wings, Dallas, Boston, Ducks. The common theme here is all of these teams are either in the Playoffs or were the last teams fighting for the final spots. No doubt Vancouver was the weakest team in the playoffs for backend scoring this season. Defensive depth has always been Vancouvers problem, but lack of scoring from the backend is the absolute biggest weakness for Vancouver.
I don't agree with a lot of what you say here. You can argue that neither Edler or Hamhuis is a legitiate #1 dman, but I suspect that both of them would be part of a top paring on 80% of teams in the NHL. Bieksa is getting older and is less effective. Tanev has emerged as a solid top-paring dman as well. This team has been built around a "consensus defense", of a group of 2-3-4 dmen that consistently produce. The team has enjoyed pretty good success over the last 7 or 8 years with this approach - certainly more consistent success than many of the teams you have listed in your examples.
The difference this year (I don't count much of what happened in the Torts year for anything) is that scoring has dropped off as players get older and injuries piled up. For the first time in a long time, every single dman on the team missed at least 5 games with injury, and some considerably more (Hamhuis missed 30 games, Bieksa 20, Edler 10, etc). Its going to affect production no matter how you slice it.
I would like to see VAN get a true #1 - Edler looks like it on some nights, but doesn't look like it on more nights, he plays the minutes and gets the points but is too inconsistent to really be that guy. The ones I want are probably not available, and I'm not sure there is one in the hopper, so I guess they'll have to do what they can.
"Defensive depth has always been Vancouvers problem" - I cannot disagree with this more. Knock the recent woes in scoring from the backend, but Vancouver's defensive depth has been their single biggest asset over the last 5-7 years. No matter how the season goes, they have consistently been among the lead leaders in fewest goals allowed and PK%. They have regularly had a high performing group in their top-4 that do a very good job of keeping the puck out of the net. |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2015 : 00:19:06
|
| I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying here with regards to the defenseman. They as a group are good defensively and are generally receiving excellent goaltending, but the defense is poor with contributions offensively. Most other teams top 2 d or top 4 d, are contributing way more offensively than Vancouvers. The defenseman do not rank well against most teams with there offensive contributions. Defensively the whole team is doing quite well, but outside of the Sedins, Vrbata, the remainder are bouncing thru the lineup and are not really offensively gifted, that's why he is roling four lines, nobody is stepping up to be that secondary threat, especially the defense. If they had more contributions from the defense offensively they would win more games. You could show me instances they have done well for short durations, but overall this team is 3 players strong offensively and 19-20 players who are average, mediocre to poor offensively. But the worst of it is if you rank the defense in offensive points for, compared to the 15-20 teams defensive contributions, which is what I was mentioning in my last remark. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2015 : 12:38:54
|
Couldn't agree more with what you are saying Joshua, as far as offense from the d side of things in Vancouver goes. Edler was our top producer and was only 31pts. Had he not missed 8 games, you could make that a whopping 34 point pace. THAT, is not enough, especially when you look around the league and see rookies like Ekblad and Klingberg outscoring him! Heck, 34 points doesn't even get a guy into the top 40 in dmen scoring. That's terrible!
Defensively, yes this group is fine. And unfortunately, a guy like Tanev isn't going to change this anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy as an all around dman, but we desperately need a PP qb / offensive dman to complement not just the defense, but our forwards be it on the PP or at even strength!
|
Edited by - Alex116 on 05/04/2015 13:28:46 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Bo Horvat and the Canucks 
