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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2007 : 09:18:46
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From some comments made in a few other threads I think this could be a good discussion.
Is Fedorov deserving of the HHOF? Discussion is the operative word here. Not interested in yes or no answers.
Discuss.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 09:21:43
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Even when you consider the past 4 seasons is ANA and CBJ, he is still nearly a point a game guy. As a Red Wing, he was over a point a game player, and over a point a game player for his career in the playoffs. Hart and Pearson winner, and two time Selke winner(really impressive considering the stereotype on Russians players). 5 All stars, all rookie team, 6 medals in international competiton and a couple of Cups. IF he plays a couple more season he should be over the 500 goal plateau as well. That is HOF material to me.
The biggest thing to me as well is that he's 4th all time for Red Wings in points, assists, and goals. Considering the talent on the Red Wings over the years, that really say something.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 11:46:01
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First of all so you know where I'm coming from, when I rate players I talk about their peak value, not career value.
Sergei Fedorov had one of the best peaks in NHL history. And that is not overstated.
92 - Selke runner-up, put up 86 points.
93 - 4th in Selke voting, put up 87 points.
94 - Selke winner, Hart winner, Pearson winner, Art Ross runner up. 120 points.
95 - Fourth in Selke voting. 42 GP - 50 points.
96 - Selke winner, 5th in Hart voting, 107 points.
That is a very impressive peak right there.
In 1994 he came as close as any forward has come to equalling what Orr did as a defencemen winning the scoring title. Winning the Selke as best defensive forward while being runner up for the Art Ross is pretty unbelievable.
The defensive part of his game is what most people forget or overlook. They just look at his offensive stats and say not bad. This guy was unbelievable at shutting down top players and then putting up more than respecatble numbers of his own.
An incredible skater. (Quite possibly the best I've seen overall)
Could stickhandle like few others.
Didn't shy away from physical play.
Fantastic passer.
Fedorov is one of the best players I have ever seen. Period.
If he doesn't make the Hall it will be a travesty.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
Edited by - willus3 on 11/06/2007 14:10:19 |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 13:41:32
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Yes...No argument here.
Willus, you and Beans seemed to cover most, or all of his good points.
I still think he should have stayed in Detroit...
I hope he can play at least two more seasons so he can get to 500 goals...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 14:34:21
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You missed one important point though that has to be considered (and might perhaps push him over the edge even for the doubters!):
2001 to 2003 - MAY have been married to Anna Kournikova, and STILL put up an 80 point season and almost a point a game in the 2001-2002 Playoffs - you shouldn't underestimate, and CANNOT overestimate, the detrimental effects of a crazy Russian blond bombshell girlfriend!
Seriously though (or for those of you who thought that was a good point, "Also though"), I often like to look at playoff performance in these types of questions. His are pretty solid. When the Wings most needed him, he was there.
And Bowman had this to say,
"Fedorov was one of my favorite players as a coach because he can do anything asked of him on ice."
If I am an employer and I get a reference letter for a potential employee from Scotty Bowman, I read it, and give it serious consideration! |
Edited by - andyhack on 11/06/2007 14:47:28 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 15:55:36
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Ha, looks like I'm in the minority here (as per usual), but I say he shouldn't go in. I think he will go in, in truth, but it's a personal preference/bias, so here we go...
I think he was/is overrated. God this will get me eaten alive, but I'm gonna type it anyway...if he was a Canadian, no one would care about Fedorov (not to mention the off-ice attention he has gotten).
My reasoning:
It is BECAUSE of the fact that he is a Russian that he won those awards and garnered such fame, not in spite of it.
Look at Roddy Brind'Amour. He's a terrific comparison player. Best faceoff man in hockey history, perhaps. Dedicated to the game and to conditioning so much he has a nickname over it (Rod the Bod). Has never taken a day of in his NHL career.
His career numbers are similar to Federov's. He's even a similar player in terms of style. Yet is he ever mentioned in the same breath as the "gifted" Russian? Nope. Because Brind'Amour is just another great Canadian player doing what he is expected to be doing, and that is showing up to play every day and work hard.
Plus, Rod's still a competative hockey player, something Federov has not been since he left Detroit.
I somewhat see your argument about peak performance period, and I will grant you that. Fedorov is a Hart Trophy winner and many time all-star. However...then again so is Eric Lindros. And Jose Theodore.
Points to ponder... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 17:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Ha, looks like I'm in the minority here (as per usual), but I say he shouldn't go in. I think he will go in, in truth, but it's a personal preference/bias, so here we go...
I think he was/is overrated. God this will get me eaten alive, but I'm gonna type it anyway...if he was a Canadian, no one would care about Fedorov (not to mention the off-ice attention he has gotten).
My reasoning:
It is BECAUSE of the fact that he is a Russian that he won those awards and garnered such fame, not in spite of it.
Look at Roddy Brind'Amour. He's a terrific comparison player. Best faceoff man in hockey history, perhaps. Dedicated to the game and to conditioning so much he has a nickname over it (Rod the Bod). Has never taken a day of in his NHL career.
His career numbers are similar to Federov's. He's even a similar player in terms of style. Yet is he ever mentioned in the same breath as the "gifted" Russian? Nope. Because Brind'Amour is just another great Canadian player doing what he is expected to be doing, and that is showing up to play every day and work hard.
Plus, Rod's still a competative hockey player, something Federov has not been since he left Detroit.
I somewhat see your argument about peak performance period, and I will grant you that. Fedorov is a Hart Trophy winner and many time all-star. However...then again so is Eric Lindros. And Jose Theodore.
Points to ponder...
I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to do better than that.
Brind'Amour may have won some Selke's but his peak is nowhere near Fedorov's. He's also nowhere near as physically talented as Fedorov.
Also if you don't think Fedorov is gifted then you weren't watching him play or I suspect your anti-Russian bias is clouding your objectivity.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
Edited by - willus3 on 11/06/2007 17:08:20 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 17:30:23
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If you were to ask the question of who was the better player between Brind'Amour and Fedorov and people overwhelmingly picked Fedorov, you might have a point.
However, looking at those two careers, I still take Fedorov. Through the better part of the 90's, Fedorov was one of the top 5 players in the league. He produced more than stats, his team won. A good team none the less, but Philly through the mid 90's was nothing to laugh about either.
In the end, I think this may go back to your dislike of Russian Players. Fedorov's numbers are better (same points in 200+ fewer games), more recognition(awards and such) and Fedorov is more of a playoff performer.
I think in hindsight, if Brind'Amour was a Russian, you would not like him either????
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 18:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think in hindsight, if Brind'Amour was a Russian, you would not like him either????
What if CROSBY was a Russian?
____________________
Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 20:00:02
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Important point...Brind'Amour and Crosby are not Russians, therefore asking me what I would do if they were Russian is a moot point. I can tell they are not Russians. They play hard every night.
Fedorov's so-called greatness over Brind'Amour is very much an opinion. Perhaps I am not clouded by my anti-Russian stance anymore than you guys are clouded by your pro-Fedorov stance. When hockey people (not just fans) talk about character guys, they talk about Brind'Amour. I hear Fedorov's name used in sentences where words like "lazy" and "inconsistent" are used. If Fedorov had ten years like he did the year he won MVP, fine, he wins. Truth is, he didn't. He has been underachieving for more years than he was great.
Last point - Brind'Amour was the captain of the Hurricanes when they won the Stanley Cup. Did I mention, they were the HURRICANES! Detroit still wins those Cups without Fedorov. His supporting cast was infinitely better. |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 11/07/2007 : 20:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Important point...Brind'Amour and Crosby are not Russians, therefore asking me what I would do if they were Russian is a moot point. I can tell they are not Russians. They play hard every night.
Fedorov's so-called greatness over Brind'Amour is very much an opinion. Perhaps I am not clouded by my anti-Russian stance anymore than you guys are clouded by your pro-Fedorov stance. When hockey people (not just fans) talk about character guys, they talk about Brind'Amour. I hear Fedorov's name used in sentences where words like "lazy" and "inconsistent" are used. If Fedorov had ten years like he did the year he won MVP, fine, he wins. Truth is, he didn't. He has been underachieving for more years than he was great.
Last point - Brind'Amour was the captain of the Hurricanes when they won the Stanley Cup. Did I mention, they were the HURRICANES! Detroit still wins those Cups without Fedorov. His supporting cast was infinitely better.
Detroit hasn't won since Sergei left... Sergei had the complete package, when you think about the best two-way forwards of all time his name has to come up, simply because he was so remarkably responsible defensively, and still put up such huge numbers. Imagine if John Madden were scoring 100+ points while shutting down his opponents' top line! Brind'Amour put up a healthy number of points early in his career, but not in the same seasons that he was/is so defensively dominant. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 21:06:07
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My goal was not really to make this into a Fedorov/Brind'Amour debate, I was simply using Roddy as a comparison figure to explain how a Russian like Fedorov gets a ton of credit for everything he does, while a Canadian like Brind'Amour gets limited acknowledgment.
I don't hate Fedorov. I used to be a bigtime Red Wings fan. I'm not even saying the guy isn't worthy of Hall of Fame consideration.
I'm just saying that if Fedorov is Canadian (and his name is Bob Jones and he doesn't date an underage tennis pro), he's a footnote in hockey history. Because he's a Russian, some people believe, and I quote, "...when you think about the best two-way forwards of all time his name has to come up..."
I happen to think that is laughable. Maybe for a few years he was one of the better two-way players in the league, but of all time???
Gordie Howe just threw up on Mark Messier somewhere.
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Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/07/2007 21:07:33 |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 23:01:28
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Fedorov Stats
-GP G A P +/- PI PP SH GW Shots Pct
1,141 464 648 1,112 261 757 139 36 90 3,764 12.3
Brind'Amour Stats
1,280 414 670 1,084 22 1,000 137 27 60 2,951 14.0
Enough said.
Fedorov should definatly go to the hall. He was one of the Greatest players in the 90s and his stats are pretty good.
also maybe he should get in because he is the best Russian ever to play the Game.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 13:36:37
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It's not always about the stats. If it were, Glenn Anderson would already be in, and Cam Neely out.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 13:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
also maybe he should get in because he is the best Russian ever to play the Game.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
I think Igor Larianov, Sergei Makarov, Viacheslav Fetisov, Pavel Bure, and Valeri Kharlamov would all have something to say about this statement. |
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Guest4470
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Posted - 11/11/2007 : 14:41:22
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Fedorov in the Hall Of Fame...absolutely, the reasons why have been covered here.
Fedorov vs. Brind'Amour...Hart Winner (2nd only to Gretzky in Art Ross that same season), 3-time Cup Winner, Multi-time All Star, Selkes, 1 point per game in the playoffs (163 in 162 GP)...also consistent, flashy, two-way player and tremendous skater. There are guys in the Hall based on their Cup wins only so if Sergei does not get in there is something wrong.
Brind'Amour...1-time cup Winner, consistent, two-way player, Selke, 1-time All-Star, never had a 100 point season, good playoff guy but still under 1 point-per game (107 in 141).
Maybe not the best example to illustrate your point, and your tone suggests Brind'Amour will not make the Hall, he could very well make it but Russian or not his career does not compare favourably to Fedorov's anyways.
Detroit win without Fedorov...whose to say Carolina would not have won without Brind'Amour, Detroit's competition was also better than the Oilers were.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 18:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4470
Maybe not the best example to illustrate your point, and your tone suggests Brind'Amour will not make the Hall, he could very well make it but Russian or not his career does not compare favourably to Fedorov's anyways.
I don't think I was ever saying he compared favorably, just that if Brind'Amour was Russian, he'd get a lot more attention, as the two players are not dissimilar. I think it is BECAUSE Feds is Russian, not in spite of it, that he is a likely HHOFer. We just can't believe a Russian could be an effective two-way team player, but when a Canadian guy does basically the same thing, he's just another one on the pile.
That's all. |
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Fedorov - Will he make the HHOF? 
