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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 11/08/2007 : 11:36:04
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No offence to mentally handi-capped people everywhere but, this list is retarded.
This is the voting committee. They probably should be committed
Brian Burke, Jim Rutherford, Jacques Demers, Harry Neale, Kévin-Paul Dupont (Boston Globe), Al Strachan, Mike Brophy, Ken Campbell, Adam Proteau and Jason Kay of the Hockey News.
60: Sergei Fedorov, Détroit, Anaheim et Columbus
59: Borje Salming, Toronto et Détroit
58: Darryl Sittler, Toronto, Philadelphie et Détroit
57: Sidney Crosby. Pittsburgh
56: Denis Savard, Montréal, Chicago et Tampa Bay
55: Glenn Anderson, Edmonton, Toronto, Rangers et St-Louis
54: Yvan Cournoyer, Montréal
53: Ed Belfour, Chicago, San Jose, Dallas, Toronto et Floride
52: Stan Mikita, Chicago
51: Luc Robitaille, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Détroit et Rangers
50: Rob Blake, Los Angeles et Colorado
49: Brendan Shanahan, Détroit, New Jersey, St-Louis,Hartford et Rangers
48: Pat Lafontaine, Buffalo, Rangers et Islanders
47: Dale Hawerchuk: Winnipeg, Buffalo, Saint-Louis et Philadelphie
46: Chris Pronger, Hartford, St-Louis, Edmonton et Anaheim
45: Tony Esposito, Montréal et Chicago
44 : Pavel Bure, Vancouver, Floride et Rangers
43 : Frank Mahovlich, Toronto, Détroit et Montréal
42: Cam Neely, Vancouver et Boston
41: Bob Gainey, Montréal
40: Joe Nieuwendyk, Calgary, Dallas, New Jersey, Toronto et Floride
39: Brian Leetch, Rangers, Toronto et Boston
38: Scott Niedermayer, New Jersey et Anaheim
37: Grant Fuhr, Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo, Los Angeles, St-Louis et Calgary
36: Brad Park, Rangers, Boston et Détroit
35 : Billy Smith, Los Angeles et Islanders
34: Serge Savard, Montréal et Winnipeg
33: Bobby Hull, Chicago, Winnipeg et Hartford
32: Chris Chelios, Montréal, Chicago et Détroit
31 : Al MacInnis, Calgary et St-Louis
30 : Peter Stastny, Québec, New Jersey et St-Louis
29 : Ken Dryden, Montréal
28 : Bernie Parent, Boston, Philadelphie et Toronto
27 : Gilbert Perreault, Buffalo
26 : Scott Stevens, Washington, St-Louis et New Jersey
25: Ron Francis, Hartford, Pittsburgh, Caroline et Toronto
24: Peter Forsberg, Québec/Colorado, Philadelphie et Nashville
23: Marcel Dionne, Détroit, Los Angeles et Rangers
22 : Brett Hull, Calgary, St-Louis, Dallas, Détroit et Phoenix
21 : Jari Kurri, Edmonton, Los Angeles, Rangers, Anaheim et Colorado
20 : Joe Sakic, Québec/Colorado
19 : Bryan Trottier, Islanders et Pittsburgh
18 : Larry Robinson, Montréal et Los Angeles
17 : Dominik Hasek, Chicago, Buffalo, Détroit et Ottawa
16 : Paul Coffey, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Détroit, Hartford, Philadelphie, Chicago, Caroline et Boston
15 : Bobby Clarke, Philadelphie
14: Denis Potvin, Islanders
13: Guy Lafleur, Montréal, Rangers et Québec
12 : Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh, Washington et Rangers
11 : Mike Bossy, Islanders
10: Phil Esposito, Chicago, Boston et Rangers
9: Niklas Lidstrom, Détroit
8: Raymond Bourque, Boston et Colorado
7 : Martin Brodeur, New Jersey
6 : Steve Yzerman, Détroit
5: Patrick Roy, Montréal et Colorado
4: Mark Messier, Edmonton, Rangers et Vancouver
3 : Mario Lemieux , Pittsburgh
2 : Bobby Orr, Boston et Chicago
1: Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton, Los Angeles, St-Louis et Rangers
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 11:38:56
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Please explain why you feel this list is so bad? Without starting another Gretzky or Orr debate, is it because they put Orr 2nd?
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 11:52:54
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quote:
Originally posted by hkalirah
Please explain why you feel this list is so bad? Without starting another Gretzky or Orr debate, is it because they put Orr 2nd?
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall.
Nothing to do with Orr being 2. I fully expected that. I have issues with pretty much that entire list.
Not sure where to start.
Chris Pronger should be jettisoned.
Joe Nieuwendyk, I love him but he doesn't make this list.
Luc Robitaille is not a better player than Denis Savard. I don't care what his numbers say.
Billy Smith??? I don't think so.
Al MacInnis and Scott Stevens ahead of Chris Chelios? Moronic!!
Ron Francis ahead of Peter Stastny?
Lidstrom and Yzerman ahead of Potvin and Trottier?
That's just a quick run through. There's much more...
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 13:12:57
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The top 20 I can agree with. Maybe not in the order they have them, but they are still there. Top 5 I think the hit dead on.
I would dump Pronger, Salming, Blake, and Billy Smith off the list for sure.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 13:23:39
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Well it is an opinion poll from the voters. Players that they liked, or they saw play a lot are on the list.
The top 10 are Okay, where is Mike Gartner, I saw him play Junior in Niagara Falls, I saw him get a hat trick in Buffalo, when he played for Washington, I watched him play in Toronto, I do not see him, this list is bogus...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:07:07
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Doesn't Gartner have the longest consecutive 20+ goal seasons?? Or is it 30 goals season. Regardless, the guy was a gamer!
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:12:37
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TOO MANY RUSSIANS ON THE LIST! 
I'm kidding! I'm kidding. Two minutes in Siberia for Andyhack
Only two Russians actually. And Anna Kournikova went out with both of them. Conspiracy?
Of the many problems with the list, one that comes to mind right away is Trottier at Number 19. It's not a terrible ranking but he should be higher in my opinion. I think he may very well be one of the most underrated players since 1967. |
Edited by - andyhack on 11/08/2007 14:14:24 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:22:33
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Fedorov is way too low.
No Mark Howe yet Rob Blake and Chris Pronger make the list.
Cuckoo!!
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:34:10
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I wonder if we could came up with our own committee from PickUp hockey, and see how we could rank the players...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
I wonder if we could came up with our own committee from PickUp hockey, and see how we could rank the players...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
That's a fantastic idea. Any thoughts how we could do it?
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:47:19
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Just an Idea.
12 highly active, knowledgeable members selected as the committee.
Start with best player position #1, then #2 and so on.
Six players may be nominated for each position.
Only one nomination, or a second vote per position, per committee member.
If a player gets a second vote he goes on the ballot for that position.
Once six players are nominated we each rank them 1-6.
Tally up the votes, and the winner takes the #1 spot.
Then we continue to the next position.
An example would be, for #1. I nominate Gretzky, Willus seconds the nomination, Beans nominates Orr, Andyhack nominates Howe, Greg seconds Orr, etc. when the six are listed we all rank them, and their votes are tabulated, and we would have a winner.
Then move onto #2...
This could take all season, but that does not matter as long as we come up with a better list than that one or the one from The Hockey News.
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Edited by - PuckNuts on 11/08/2007 15:06:31 |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:27:11
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Sounds interesting.
Irvine |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:37:38
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I'd like to do this. It sounds like as good a system as any.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:39:43
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A quote from Ken Campbell from the latest THN:
"In reality, the Phoenix Coyotes of today would almost certainly trounce the 1955-56 Canadiens."
I think that this is an irresponsible assertion, but might make for an interesting debate, if you could find anyone who agrees with Mr. Campbell.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:56:37
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Okay I think the best way to set up the committee would be :
Email me that you would like to participate on the committee. I already have a good idea of who should be on it, but I could be missing someone.
I will start a list, we may get to 12 or we may not have enough to even attempt it, but here it goes.
Committee Members.
1.) PuckNuts
2.) willus3
3.) Beans15
4.) OILINONTARIO
5.) MSC
6.) irvine
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Edited by - PuckNuts on 11/09/2007 05:06:35 |
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Guest4282
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Posted - 11/08/2007 : 18:37:43
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| Overall, I think the list is pretty good, but Mike Gartner definitely should be on it. The guy scored over 700 goals and never gets the credit he deserves. Other general comments are that I think Stan Mikita is rated too low, but I suppose if they based it solely from 1967 onwards, it's not bad because he was passed his prime. Glad to see Sidney Crosby make the cut. To all you Chris Pronger haters, sorry guys but the man is one of the best defencemen in the league, has been for about ten years and deserves to be there. Interesting that Eric Lindros is not there ( not sure if he should be) and if Luc Robitaille is in, then why not Dino Ciccarelli ? Anyway, the only obvious omission, I believe, was Gartner. |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 19:05:24
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Cournoyer and Neuwendyk made the list?
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 21:08:20
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| The list definatly has some issues. Personally I think the real problems was the defence. Robinson in particular seemed to be ranked to high in my eyes. |
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Guest4782
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Posted - 11/08/2007 : 21:33:34
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| a list that do not include the player who win the most stanley cup in history is a bad list. Is brother should also be in that list. period. (Henri & maurice Richard) |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:47:26
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As soon as I see the name Al Strachan, I move on. Anything with that moron's name attached to it can't be valid.
Dumbest position on the list - Denis Potvin at 14. If Denis Potvin is the 14th best player in the NHL since 1960, I think the game is screwed. No offence to Denis (whom I like and respect), but ahead of Trots? Heck no. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 00:08:37
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| Bob Gainey ranked ahead of Lafontaine, Savard etc....oooo geez |
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Guest8142
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Posted - 11/09/2007 : 00:26:07
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I think Darryl Sittler and Guy Lafleur are too far apart from each other. Growing up, they were both idols of ours, the street hockey kids on our street, but in this list they seem too far apart.
Another one, I think Joe Sakic at twenty is rated too lowly. The number of cups have to be one of the criteria never mind his sportsmanship, leadership, consistency, and sublime skillset. What does he need to do to move up the ranks, retire and wait for 20 years of reflection? |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 07:31:19
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| Do you guys agree with Peter Forsberg as #24? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 07:39:44
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
A quote from Ken Campbell from the latest THN:
"In reality, the Phoenix Coyotes of today would almost certainly trounce the 1955-56 Canadiens."
I think that this is an irresponsible assertion, but might make for an interesting debate, if you could find anyone who agrees with Mr. Campbell.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs.
Well this is telling. Leaves no doubt why the list favours the more recent players.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 07:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
As soon as I see the name Al Strachan, I move on. Anything with that moron's name attached to it can't be valid.
Agreed. I have a hard time listening to this clown. Watching him is even worse. Him and his laser cut mustache. Creepy.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 07:45:29
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
Do you guys agree with Peter Forsberg as #24?
This list is so messed up it's hard to agree with any position Paintrain.
I definitely rate Forsberg very high though. We'll have to see where he ends up on our Pickup Hockey Top 60 Since 67 List...
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 09:48:48
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Just a suggestion for the Pick Up Hockey List. Firstly, goalies not included. We can do a list of the top 20 goalies or something later.
What do you think??
Forsberg 24?? Maybe. Potvin ahead of Trots is just wrong. And Sittler was not anywhere near the player LeFleur was. Try smoking 2 packs a day and rock the score sheet all night.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 12:20:22
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I do agree with doing goalies in a seperet list.
Top 60 PLAYERS. :)
Irvine |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 14:27:11
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No problem with excluding goalies, we can attack that issue later...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 17:40:19
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OK. Greg Smith, Fly, Paintrain. Are you guys in? This sounds like a lot of fun.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 17:59:53
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I'm in. No Russians on my list, though. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 18:05:39
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Am I missing something or is Lindros not on the top 60 list? Okay, we can argue the attitude thing at length, but the guy won a Hart Trophy. How can you win a Hart Trophy and not be on the list?
For those of you thinking Jose Theodroe, buzz off, you know what I mean. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 20:12:18
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I'm in but may not be available too much in the next couple of weeks.
Good move dealing with the goalies separately!
I'll try to control my Bruin bias. Stan Jonathon will not be nominated!
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 20:23:27
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I'll be in !
Goalies is the best for a different category.
This should be fun! |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 06:02:36
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Committee Members, so far...
1.) PuckNuts
2.) willus3
3.) Beans15
4.) OILINONTARIO
5.) MSC
6.) irvine
7.) PainTrain
8.) andyhack
9.) fly4apuckguy
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 07:10:11
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Admin, Leigh, Bigshow, Pickles. You guys interested?
Where's TCTitans?
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 07:36:05
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I thought that it would be good to get Greg Smith's input also...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 10:15:27
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Are we going to set up some kind of criteria? What I mean is are we going to base this exclusively on the play of the player on the ice or are we going to include things such as leadership, off ice benefit to hockey, changing the shape of the game, etc. This might not matter much for the top 10 or 20 guys, but when it gets past that, the arguements will be interesting.
For example, Lindros is on this list without question based excusively on play on the ice. The rest of it leaves a questions mark is the eyes of some.
Let's also keep in mind play off production. I'm sure stats are going to come up through this, and I personally find if comparing two players with similar regular season stats and skills, the tie break usually is their ability to win in the play offs and produce under pressure.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 10:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Are we going to set up some kind of criteria? What I mean is are we going to base this exclusively on the play of the player on the ice or are we going to include things such as leadership, off ice benefit to hockey, changing the shape of the game, etc. This might not matter much for the top 10 or 20 guys, but when it gets past that, the arguements will be interesting.
For example, Lindros is on this list without question based excusively on play on the ice. The rest of it leaves a questions mark is the eyes of some.
Let's also keep in mind play off production. I'm sure stats are going to come up through this, and I personally find if comparing two players with similar regular season stats and skills, the tie break usually is their ability to win in the play offs and produce under pressure.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
I don't think, when rating a hockey player, anything other than what they did on the ice should be considered. We aren't talking about the HHOF here. We just want to know who the best hockey players of the last 40 years are.
It will also be interesting because people rate players differently. For instance I rate players on their peak because that, I feel, is the best way to judge what they were capable of.
Now others will rate players by career.
I wonder if we should make the distinction? Are we judging careers or peak values?
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 14:46:46
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When we are ready I will open up two threads, like we did with the GOAT draft.
One for posting our nominations, and selections. This will also be used for the voting.
The other could be used for conversation, chit chat, etc...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 16:10:32
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| I think you rank them by what they have accomplished in their careers, otherwise a guy could make a case for putting Gary Leeman on the list for having a 50 goal season. |
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Top 60 Since 67 - Hockey News List 
