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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
 Posted - 02/19/2008 : 20:27:56
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What do you think would have happened to the landscape of hockey in the '80s and '90s had Walter and Phyllis Gretzky gone to a movie that fateful Spring night back in 1960?
* question assumes they were too shy to do it in the movie theatre
** by the way, I notice Wayne was born six days after JFK was inaugerated - I was born 2 days before JFK was assassinated - as far as I know Oliver Stone has not linked this totally meaningless information to a conspiracy theory yet
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Edited by - andyhack on 02/19/2008 20:31:39
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:49:35
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1) The Oilers still win maybe one or two Cups through the 80's, but not 4 in 5 years.
2) Philly and Boston would have had a few Cups between them in the 80's.
3) Calgary might have had another one.
4) The Islanders might have challenges the 70's Canadiens as the best team ever based off of winning 5 or 6 straight Cups.
5) The battle of Alberta would have not been as meaningful. Calgary was just mad because Edmonton spanked the crap out of them most of the time.
6) Some dashing French Phenom would have been heralded as the best offensive player in history without contest.
7) Agree with me or not, hockey is not as popular in the US as it is today.
8) 99 would be just another number.
9) Hockey fans would have never had the chance to see a 90+ goal season, a number of 200+ point seasons, and never would have seen a player have more assists in a season than the next guy had points.
10) I would have missed a hero growing up and I would have been less of a hockey fan.
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 09:03:55
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Team Canada may not have won the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal....However they may have had a better shot at the 1998 podium.
Go Wings Go! |
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Guest6900
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Posted - 02/20/2008 : 09:18:14
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The Leafs would have made it to the final, beat the Habs and won the Cup! Instead no ref had the guts to call Gretzky's high stick/whittling project on Gilmore's face that, had it been any other player on the planet, would have resulted in a 5 min. major and undoubtedly lost the game for the Kings.
41 years and counting. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 10:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6900
The Leafs would have made it to the final, beat the Habs and won the Cup! Instead no ref had the guts to call Gretzky's high stick/whittling project on Gilmore's face that, had it been any other player on the planet, would have resulted in a 5 min. major and undoubtedly lost the game for the Kings.
41 years and counting.
Can't stop laughing! You Leafers crack me up!
The Oil WILL make the playoffs. |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 10:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6900
The Leafs would have made it to the final, beat the Habs and won the Cup! Instead no ref had the guts to call Gretzky's high stick/whittling project on Gilmore's face that, had it been any other player on the planet, would have resulted in a 5 min. major and undoubtedly lost the game for the Kings.
41 years and counting.
Can't stop laughing! You Leafers crack me up!
The Oil WILL make the playoffs.
Actually, even as a non-leafs fan, he has a point. There was a clear high stick on that play, which was missed by the refs. Whether it was conveniently overlooked or not can be saved for another thread, but I have to agree with the original post.
Go Wings Go! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 15:19:06
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| There are plays missed in every game in every league on the planet. Even if it was a missed call, good teams play through bad calls. Bad teams complain about it 15 years after the fact. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 07:44:15
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1) I'm more sure that Philly may have won a cup or two than Boston. Ray and Cam just didn't have enough support around them. Assuming that all goes the same in '88 though (Edit - except the Wings somehow manage to get by the Gretzky-less Oilers in the semis that year), I suppose the Bruins might have had a chance against Stevie Y and the Red Wings (only cause it's the 80s version of the Red Wings). But as I have said before, I think the Bs were emotionally spent after that Montreal series - they barely squeaked out the semis in '88 against a young inexperienced Devils team.
2) I really think the Oilers, even without Wayne, would have had a shot of success as early as '84, even against against the Isles in the finals. Though still great, they had clearly lost a step by then. I guess this question comes down to just how great you think those Oilers were independent of Gretzky. I think at the very least they would have made it to the final and would have made a close competitive series of it with the Isles if Messier still performs the way he did in reality (as I like to note, he won the Conn Smythe that year). Either way, I think that year would likely have been the last final for the Isles, just as it was in reality.
3) I think fans would be generally more aware of the greats of the game other than Wayne, before and during Wayne's time. Guys like Stastny and Denis Savard would be more highly regarded for example. Mario would certainly be elevated in people's minds, yes, but I don't think that change would be as significant as the elevation of the others. Yzerman's 155 points for example would shine much more brightly if only compared to one superduperstar ahead of him. As for earlier guys, I'm pretty sure that the greatness of a guy like Lafleur (no pun intended ) would be a little more appreciated than it is today.
Edit - Beans, your comment above about "bad teams complaning years later" clearly comes from the perspective of a guy who grew up watching Oiler teams win, win and win. The world looks different to you guys. Fans of teams that have suffered heartbreaking losses one way or the other over the years, like Leaf fans (but moreso Bruin fans), can't help but wonder about little things, as Don Cherry wondered last weekend about what would have happened in '79 had Lady Byng winner Ratelle not been called for a questionable penalty with the Bs leading 3-1 in the third against the Habs in Game 7 (let alone all the other things to wonder about in that game) . The Bs that year and for many years were far from a bad team by the way.
And if the argument is that "they would have found a way to win", I disagree with that too. You make your own luck, yes, but sometimes between two teams who both made their own luck, one just gets a little luckier.
I think it's fair to say that the Kings were quite lucky in '93 that a penalty wasn't called on Gretzky. |
Edited by - andyhack on 02/23/2008 08:47:00 |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 11:34:12
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Andy, I think your view is such a cop out. If one penalty is the difference between winning and losing a 7 GAMES SERIES, that's just a huge pathetic excuse.
And don't tell me about the Oilers winning and winning and winning. How about losing to Dallas in the playoffs like 5 out of 6 times in the 90's?? Never have I ever talked about losing a game based on a bad call, let alone blaming a series loss on a bad call. How about losing a heartbreaker in the finals less than 3years ago?? C'mon. Blaming that on the refs is really weak in my mind.
Seriously, IMO it's a cop out. A single call (good or bad) should not have any impact on a 7 games series in the least. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 12:19:59
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Beans, my never met in person friend! You are missing a key point! And I don't blame you for missing it because asking you to relate to it is a bit like asking a guy from the moon to relate to what it feels like to be a martian. Very hard for the moon guy to say, right?
In the same way, despite all the losses of the 90s by the Oilers to the Stars, you DID experience win after win after win as an Oilers fan in the 80s (Edit - and so you cannot relate to how a Leaf fan, for example, feels about that Gilmour incident). Bruin fans, Leaf fans, and Chicago fans, to name three, do not have those victories to fall back on, whether it's the '93 Gretzky incident or something heartbreaking that happens this year or next year.
I'm saying it's human nature (Edit - or moonguy/martian nature ) for fans of those teams to wonder about those little things more because they have never experienced the joy of winning EVEN ONE CUP. I'm not saying that the whole series necessarily changes based on just that one thing but I do strongly defend anyone who brings up those things as key factors against attacks such as the one you made in your post above. And, my man from the moon friend, coming to the defence of the "losing" side is, in my view anything but "weak" by the way.
I stand by it. Your perspective is different. You can't relate to us martians.
Edit - further thought - just so you know Beans, though I understand it, I too don't think people should whine too much about these things (because it's just the way things go sometime, and whining doesn't get you anywhere).
BUT, for the winner to not realize that they may very well have just happened to have ended up on the right side of lady luck, and moreover, say things like, "the difference was we were the good team and you were the bad team, and now you are just crying about the loss" is, in my view, arrogant. |
Edited by - andyhack on 02/23/2008 13:14:07 |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 13:26:51
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The argument that I've heard many times from Leafs' fans about the Gretzky/ Gilmour incident is that this apparent biased, pro-Gretzky reffing was all that kept Toronto from winning the Cup in '93. While this may not be the view of those posting in this forum, it is quite typical of many vocal fans and representative media of the league's most deluded and self-pitying team.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 09:01:04
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Andy, we can agree to disagree on this. My team has known the feeling of winning while others haven't has nothing to do with this arguement.
And I am not ignorant to Luck. Not at all. But, Luck is more than one good or bad call. Luck is a combination of events. And, I also believe that a lot of times a team will make their own luck.
Why is it that most often good teams are lucky and bad teams are unlucky??
Weather I am from the Moon or Mars or I have won or I have not, that doesn't matter. And you are only speaking about Hockey. I am a Saints fan in the NFL. My team has only made it to the playoffs once in my football watching career. I do not complain about bad calls in any sport. It's not the way I was taught. I was taught that you take the good calls with the bad calls and you play though either one.
Call that view ignorant if you wish. |
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Guest9963
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Posted - 02/24/2008 : 09:24:23
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Mr. Beans, I'm beginning to wonder if you even watched the 93 series between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Los Angeles Kings. There was clearly a missed call on Mr. Gretzky and that is just the tip of the ice berg. It was common place in that series to see Toronto penalized over and over again. At one point the Leafs had received around 10 straight penalties before the Kings got one. And let's remember that this was 1993. When the playoffs came the refs put their whistles away. In fact, after the missed call on Gretzky which was pretty much the climax of lousy officiating in that series Don Cherry and Ron MacLean in more words or less suggested foul play at hand. Oh, and don't forget the GM in Los Angeles at the time - CRIMINAL! The series was completely lop sided.
By the way, I am NOT a Leaf fan.
Anyways, that was off topic, I know, I just felt I needed to post that.
As far as the topic is concerned, it's quite obvious that hockey just wouldn't be the same without him. Players like Wayne, Mario, even Sid tend to impact the league in such a way that they not only improve the people that they play with, but the entire league plays better because of them. Basically, they raise the bar. And when the bar is raised there will always be others who will strive to reach that level. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 15:43:59
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Beans - for a smart guy you are having a lot of trouble grasping a pretty simple point. Perhaps you would get it better if the New Orleans Saints finally made it to the Super Bowl next year, and then, leading 14-10 on the very last play, the other team scored a touchdown on a play where there was clearly some penalty that should have been called on them.
I am not saying that it is necessarily a good thing to go on and on whining about things like this, and of course there are all types of moments in a game where one team gets a break or doesn't get a break, BUT, when it happens as mentioned above, the losing side tends to dwell a bit on it. That's human nature.
Back to hockey and the fact that you grew up as an Oiler fan in the Gretzky era. All I am really saying is that it is more natural and understandable for a Leaf fan of the last 40 years to bring up something like the Gretzky incident (Edit - and yes, feel some bitterness even years later) than it would be for you to bring up some similar unfair incident should it happen against the Oilers one day in the future. Why? In your case, at least you can say, "Well, the Oilers got ripped off, yes, but at least I saw them win big time in the 80s". What does the Leaf fan have to say when such an incident happens, "Well, they got ripped off but at least I saw Lanny score that goal in the quarter-finals against the Isles in '78"? (Note that the Leafs got blown away by the Habs in the next round that year).
I don't think Leaf fans should assume that they would have rolled to a Cup against the Habs that year BUT, I don't think they should be trashed for bringing the very legitimate point of that questionable Gretzky-Gilmour call either.
Edit - Although it is true that you sometimes, maybe even often, make your own breaks, that is not always the case (sometimes a team just simply gets a break, and it could be the stronger team or it could be the weaker team). In fact, the "break" in question was not made by anything the Kings did - they were simply lucky that the ref didn't call it. Of course the Leafs should have tried to play through it, as I am sure they did, but if a Leaf fan brings up the incident in a thread like this (saying something fair like, "that semi-final could very well have gone to the Leafs but for that bad call", I think that sort of statement is a much more reasonable statement than your "Bad teams complain about these types of things years later" comment. |
Edited by - andyhack on 02/24/2008 16:49:18 |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 16:29:56
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It is odd how this incident was a long time ago, and is still on some of our minds.
If you are not a Leafs fan my guess would be you are saying what is all the whining all about.
But if you are a Leafs fan it is as close as the team has been to have a real chance to hoist the cup since 1967, and a great final between two of the original six teams.
This was not just a missed hook, clutch, grab, trip, or slash it was a high stick that drew blood that every person watching the game on TV, and in the building saw including Fraser???
This would be no different than the Brett Hull toe in the crease for Dallas. The goal should have been called back, whether you liked the rule or not a rule is a rule, I am sure Buffalo fans feel the same as Leafs about that blown call...
Janet would still be making "B" movies...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img] |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:36:55
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Andy, I completely understand the point you have made. It is easy for me as an Oiler Fan through the 80's and watching them hoist 5 Cups in my lifetime to say quit whining. I get that. I can appreciate the frustration the Leaf Nation felt in 93. I can imagine the feeling of the people in the stadium, the 40K watching in Skydome, and the literally millions at home who were crushed when Gretzky owned the Hockey World for 60 minutes in game 7. I get it.
The point I am trying to make has nothing to do what this.
What I am saying is that one call, regardless of the timing of the call, is not the reason a team wins or loses a series. And it doesn't matter if my team has won or lost. If one call makes the difference, my true thoughts are that my team could have and should have done more or better to not let one single call (or incident for that matter) end thier run at a Cup.
Case in point, when my beloved Oilers were in the finals a few season back, I recall an unluck situation where one Marc Bergeron made a poor decision and took out Dwayne Roloson in the first game. Many people in Oiler Country still talk about this as a "what if?" Have I?? Even once??? Nope.
Andy, although we have had our battles in the past, you must understand that I have a great deal of respect for your opinions. Truly one of the sites finest hockey minds. However, I do get you point, and appreciate if you could try to understand mine. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/24/2008 21:38:21 |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:55:46
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But it is the lasting impression in your mind, not the goal that was missed in the first shift of the first game...
But...
the play that was missed that caused a player to be on the ice to score a goal that led to a game seven...
Like I said a non Leaf fan would not understand...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img] |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 15:04:06
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Beans - first of all thanks for the kind words. Actually, I find some of these topics interesting on not only a hockey level but a sort of psycho-sociological level too perhaps.
The main thing that I objected to from you was the following comment,
"if it was a missed call, good teams play through bad calls. Bad teams complain about it 15 years after the fact."
I believe this comment is off the mark EVEN IF one completely acknowledges your other point that "one call, regardless of the timing of the call, is not the reason a team wins or loses a series". In fact, if the "one call" comment would have been all you would have said in your original post, I might not have battled you on this, at least much less so. It is the further suggestion that people who bring up these things are just complaining about "bad teams" that didn't "play through bad calls", that really made me think that you clearly don't have the perspective of a fan who has NEVER celebrated a Cup.
And I think this IS related to your point. That is in fact my point (that what you said above comes from a certain perspective or way of looking at the world). In terms of hockey anyway, your way of looking at the world basically is that "things generally turn out the way they should”. My guess is that if you did a study amongst huge Boston Bruin/Leaf fans, and huge Oiler/Habs fans of the last 40 years and asked them something like, "Do hockey games always work out the way they should?", a significantly higher percentage of Montreal/Edmonton fans would answer, "Yes, hockey games always work out the way they should". Not rocket science I know, but I think this basic difference has a lot to do with you making the above comment – a lot more than you may think.
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 15:12:39
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
But it is the lasting impression in your mind, not the goal that was missed in the first shift of the first game...
But...
the play that was missed that caused a player to be on the ice to score a goal that led to a game seven...
Like I said a non Leaf fan would not understand...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img]
Ok, but Puck, I understand what your saying, but wouldn't they then remember what happened in that game seven rather than the game before?
Honestly, refs screw up every game, this time in a big way. You can't say that The leafs would've positively won that game. If that call was made, the Kings could've still scored. Scoring without Gretz would've also given them some motivation.
Fraser happens to be a great ref, in my mind, blowing one call cannot make a series. The leafs shoul've wont he next game anyway, or one of those lost games before that.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 19:22:35
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"that semi-final could very well have gone to the Leafs but for that bad call"....this is pretty much how I took his statement to be originally intended. Since the original topic is about a twilight zone without Gretzky, I think this is as fair a hypothetical as the others, no?
Whether refs miss calls, or good teams play through tough calls, or Gretzky was ref-protected, or the Leafs could've won anyways is all secondary to what is a fair supposition in my eyes.
How about this: Steve Smith doesn't gain professional confidence and courage from playing with Gretzky...so he never develops strong enough as a D-man to even be on the ice one fateful game in the spring of '86. So he isn't even on the ice to make a doomed pass that ricochets off Fuhr into the net. So the Oil actually win ONE MORE cup than they did in our world. Sort of a reversal of all the good things that would not have happened due to his absence. One could argue that Edmonton wouldn't have made it to that point in the playoffs that year anyways, I could then argue back that Messier was able to make up enough of that slack to have gotten them there (since he was able to do it a couple years later in reality makes that sub-argument also plausible)
I think this is a fair enough hypothetical. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 19:25:03
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Not at all 99 pickles, not at all! If you look at little teeny things like that, any little thing, intangibles even, become far game! We have to stay within the boundaries of concievable and understandable!
Habs get number 25 this year |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 20:10:32
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" If you look at little teeny things like that, any little thing, intangibles even, become far game!" Can't they ? Arguably everything, big or small, that he did - hockey related or not - is removed by the original scenario. So any hypothetical is fair as long as it is posed believably...with fair enough reason, it would seem. With my suggestion I have chosen to go to that very infinitesimal point. Someone else could choose to be more general on a large scale, I have chosen to be very specific about one singular incident that, if removed, would have made a significant change in hockey history. That's my prerogative, no?
I still like the idea that this is a suggestion that involves the Oil winning one more cup than what really happened. I posed an argument as reasonable as the others. I am just playing the game, that's all. |
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The Twilight Zone where Gretzky wasn't born 
