| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
 Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:12:02
|
|
Over the course of his career, the Leafs have paid Mats Sundin over 70 million dollars and the closest that he has come to the Cup was the Eastern Conference finals. A captain is supposed to lead his team to victories and say as you like, the Leafs have had good teams while Mats has been the captain. Did he owe the Leafs a trade?
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:48:41
|
No.
In fact, the Leafs owed Mats Sundin a contract longer than one year, and some freakin' respect as the future all-time points leader and one of its greatest captains.
Instead, they gave him a below-market deal for one year, and during a year where he was performing admirably while everyone else was failing miserably (icluding all the long-term deal, over-priced players), the Leafs tried to pressure Sundin through the media to break his no trade clause. In fact, they presented a pretty lame case to make him feel guilty about a contract they both signed in good faith, and to make Leafs fans angry that he hadn't sacrificed his own selfish needs to cover Leafs' management's asses.
Sundin is a guy I can respect - there are very few others on my beloved team I can say the same for. And no one - NO ONE in management has my respect, other than Maurice if you count him.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
 |
|
|
ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:54:44
|
Why does Maurice have your respect? What has he done?
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
|
|
|
Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 09:19:40
|
Stupid Wade Belak blamed Mats Sundin as the reason he (Belak) got traded. Maybe if you didn't play as if you were constipated and simultaniously being attacked by red ants you would have a spot in Toronto!
Habs get number 25 this year |
|
|
|
SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 10:39:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Stupid Wade Belak blamed Mats Sundin as the reason he (Belak) got traded. Maybe if you didn't play as if you were constipated and simultaniously being attacked by red ants you would have a spot in Toronto!
Habs get number 25 this year
C'mon. You know perfectly well that Belak is a big joker. He was just making fun of the situation. Everyone knows he wasn't being serious... |
|
|
|
SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 10:56:20
|
I am going to play devil's advocate..... If you look at it from a personal and loyalty aspect, then you may argue that Sundin EARNED the right to be where he is now. I am sorry, but that doesn't wash with me. He didn't EARN anything. Rather he BARGAINED for it. The ONLY reason he is able to stay in TO is because management was dumb enough to give him a NTC......It was Sundin who wanted to sign for only a year. Not management! I don't know what they were thinking of giving him a NTC when he only wanted to sign for a year. But what's done is done.....If you get past the fact that he had a NTC and a right to exercise that NTC then what you have is a situation where everyone would be applauding a trade involving Sundin. People seem to stop looking at the NHL as a business because they have come to like certain players and feel cheated when those players leave. But when a player is underperforming then the player is vilified and the people want his head. They want to get rid of him and improve the team. We had a situation where the player was performing well, but people still wanted him out, (well some people did anyways). That is because getting rid of him would have improved the team more than having him on the team would have....In my opinion, Sundin would have come off looking like a bigger hero had he waived his NTC and gave the team a chance for more improvement. Everyone knows he could have come back in the off-season.
But I think it will depend mainly on whether or not Sundin chooses to play another season or two, and that being with the Leafs. If he plays again, but for another team, then he will be villian number 1. Cause Leafs didn't get anything for him and neither did he stick around. If he retires then he may come off looking like a martyr.....just my opinion  |
Edited by - SuperSakic on 02/27/2008 10:57:24 |
|
|
|
MarkhamMax
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 11:24:40
|
I'll put a spin on it (again lol)...
After years of hard work you negotiate a raise and are awarded a work guarantee. You are the top performer in your company. You plan your future around it.
Then the boss comes to you with a sob story about the company going through hard times and how cutting you lose would really 'help them out'.
Golly gee... would you be a be a super nice guy and 'take one for the team?'
I'm really quite tired of Sundin being vilified for exorcising his earned options. Why does he deserve any different treatment to you, or I, if we had similarly worked our way up the ladder? Can you imagine Yzerman getting this kind of flack? C'mon already!!  |
|
|
|
SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 11:48:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by MarkhamMax
I'll put a spin on it (again lol)...
After years of hard work you negotiate a raise and are awarded a work guarantee. You are the top performer in your company. You plan your future around it.
Then the boss comes to you with a sob story about the company going through hard times and how cutting you lose would really 'help them out'.
Golly gee... would you be a be a super nice guy and 'take one for the team?'
I'm really quite tired of Sundin being vilified for exorcising his earned options. Why does he deserve any different treatment to you, or I, if we had similarly worked our way up the ladder? Can you imagine Yzerman getting this kind of flack? C'mon already!!
if only those of us in the REAL work world could get a no-fire clause, or a no-demotion clause 
But if you put a just a bit more spin on your spin and say "Well... we need to make some cut-backs and shift around our positions. So, I am sorry to say but we have to let you go. Thanks for all you've done for us.'"
And actually there was a time (back in the 90's I believe) when everyone was on his case and wanted Yzerman traded... |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 11:59:07
|
You got it wrong, SuperSakic. And I respect you too, btw, but here's why:
1. Your point about Sundin not EARNING the right to be where he is now? I think it's a moot point in terms of contract, but let's start with this:
414 goals, 558 assists, 972 points, +91 - 971 games (13 seasons, mostly on middling teams with no help on the wings)
Playoffs - 77gp - 32goals, 38assists, 70 points (Leafs 2nd all-time)
* Leafs all time leader in goals, points, second in assists
* 24th all-time in goals (just passed the Rocket)
Between him, Sittler, Gilmour - hard choice for best Leaf ever (modern era)
You don't think that deserves respect?!? If so, your momma didn't raise you right, punk!
2. Your reasoning about "the only reason he's here . . . is because management was dumb enough to give him a NTC"
Sundin's agent and JFJ came to an AGREEMENT - a MUTUALLY AGREED CONTRACT. The only reason Sundin was given a one year and not a multi year deal, is that he chose to get the NTC. He didn't want a situation where the team dealt him to a team not of his choosing, and he wanted to remain a Leaf, so he took less money as a result.
3. If Sundin had waived his NTC, I am one person who would NOT have applauded it. He would have lost some of my respect, actually.
4. I respect Maurice because he is smart, forthright, honourable, and in my opinion, a pretty good coach. Unfortunately, he is in a s***ty position right now, but what can you do. He's not my fave coach, but he's certainly in the top third, IMO.
5. Yes, Belak was joking. He's also a joke. Good Riddance, a**h***!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 12:23:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
You don't think that deserves respect?!? If so, your momma didn't raise you right, punk!
Let me just begin by saying that I never called anyone names, so I don't see why you have to resort to such behaviour just because you have a hard-on for Sundin and feel I've just insulted your girlfriend. Maybe in your head he IS your girlfriend, in which case YOUR momma didn't raise you right!
I never once said that Sundin did not deserve respect. if you look back at my post you will see that the word "respect" never comes up. Sure I have respect for Sundin and what he's done for the leafs. But my respect for his achievements does not blind me to the fact that this is still a business after all. And let me tell you, you are of a handful of people who think that he was right in not waiving his NTC.
And yes the contract was mutually agreed. But that still doesn't make it any less of a dumb deal by management.
As for Maurice. I think he speaks well when in the spot light, but I don't think that he's the answer to leafs team. A good coach would be able to get a system going (depending on the players that he has at hand) and have success with them. Are the players crappy? Sure, but they still seem to be able to win against teams that they shouldn't be able to win against. That tells me that the team is good enough to win, but just not with the current system that they have in place. The system that the coach provides....I'll just say this: There's a reason Maurice was coaching the Marlies and not the Hurricanes anymore.... |
Edited by - SuperSakic on 02/27/2008 12:24:10 |
|
|
|
Guest4076
( )
|
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 14:20:55
|
Yes, Sundin is right in not having to waive his trade clause.The leafs should not hand out NTC in every one of their contracts. Terrible management and mangement alone has led to their problems. Sundin isone of the few glimmers of brightness on that team and if hes willing to sink with the ship and not win a cup with them, then let that be his decision. Sundin has my Respect!
PENS GET HOSSA! |
|
|
|
Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 14:34:14
|
Just thought I should show you this. This is the msn name of a kid on the Jr. Candiens, he plays AAA hockey second or first line centre, goes to a school where you are expected to get fully paid hockey scholarships from, and follows hockey.
Corey- Leafs traded Belak and Kilger wat retards Franchise players Gill deserved it he plain old sucks ~~~~ says (5:32 PM):
Doesn't that just epitomize the problem with this city and its fans?
Habs get number 25 this year |
|
|
|
Guest5643
( )
|
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 15:33:19
|
| Alex- does your post not emphasize the problem with this site. Everyone has an opinion that counts. For u to pull that opinion off another post to put on here to make an example of just cheapens this site and turns it into highschool drama crap. We didn't need to know he plays, what level at or any details of him for that matter. Just stick to your daily polls and own opinions. |
|
|
|
MarkhamMax
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 20:09:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by SuperSakic
quote:
Originally posted by MarkhamMax
I'll put a spin on it (again lol)...
After years of hard work you negotiate a raise and are awarded a work guarantee. You are the top performer in your company. You plan your future around it.
Then the boss comes to you with a sob story about the company going through hard times and how cutting you lose would really 'help them out'.
Golly gee... would you be a be a super nice guy and 'take one for the team?'
I'm really quite tired of Sundin being vilified for exorcising his earned options. Why does he deserve any different treatment to you, or I, if we had similarly worked our way up the ladder? Can you imagine Yzerman getting this kind of flack? C'mon already!!
if only those of us in the REAL work world could get a no-fire clause, or a no-demotion clause
But if you put a just a bit more spin on your spin and say "Well... we need to make some cut-backs and shift around our positions. So, I am sorry to say but we have to let you go. Thanks for all you've done for us.'"
And actually there was a time (back in the 90's I believe) when everyone was on his case and wanted Yzerman traded...
Yeah but I'm not spinning it that way, because if Sundin was tradable this topic wouldn't exist. Your spin puts the GM in control - mine is a 'dramatic spin' on what actually went down.
As for Yzerman, everyone may have wanted him traded... except for his own team, which actually stood behind him. I see a glaring difference here in comparison.
Actually I see two, Yzerman played for a winning team  |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 06:24:07
|
SuperSakic - you need to improve your reading comprehension.
Quote 1:
"Let me just begin by saying that I never called anyone names, so I don't see why you have to resort to such behaviour just because you have a hard-on for Sundin and feel I've just insulted your girlfriend. Maybe in your head he IS your girlfriend, in which case YOUR momma didn't raise you right!"
I never called you names, Supersakic - but you have, now. You've also implied that I have a crush on Sundin, and insinuated that I have reacted emotionally. I don't have a girlfriend, btw - if I did, my wife would kill me. 
It was a playful piece of writing, in which I stated that after I presented all those facts to you, IF YOU DID'T AGREE that Sundin deserved respect, then "your momma didn't raise you right". How the heck is that name calling?
Quote 2:
"I never once said that Sundin did not deserve respect" . . . except that, in your earlier post you stated, "If you look at it from a personal and loyalty aspect, then you may argue that Sundin EARNED the right to be where he is now. I am sorry, but that doesn't wash with me. He didn't EARN anything. Rather he BARGAINED for it"
For me, I interpereted that as Leafs management not having to give Sundin the respect he deserves. I listed my reasons why they should respect the contract they signed in good faith. Just because you didn't mention the word, or don't understand the meaning of the term (as is indicated by your childish response), doesn't mean that isn't the core issue.
You, btw, have now lost my respect.
And also btw - coaches are always more expendable than players. It is not necessarily indicative of actual skill or job performance . . . Maurice did get Carolina to the finals, a place where Toronto hasn't been to in a very, very long time.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 07:26:09
|
Sorry Slozo, but i am going to have to disagree with you on Maurcie. The Leafs have beaten teams like Detroit, Ottawa, Montreal, Buffalo, Rangers, etc. And you know what? They usually put in a pretty good effort against the really good teams! But then they lose 8-0 to Florida. They lose to Tampa, LA, Atlanta. They are so inconsistent and it's been like this for the past 2 years. The fact that they win games against strong opponents means that they do have the talent level to win games! But it is the inconsistency that has killed them, And at some point, that needs to come back to the coach. There is something wrong if he can get them motivated enough to play well against Detroit, but then completely lose the team when they are playing Florida.
Sundin does deserve respect. No doubt about it. He has done more for that eam than anyone. And it isn't his fault that they are where they are. The no-trade clause was put in his contract by management with probably urging by Sundin and his agent. And because it was put in there, he has no obligation to feel that he has to waive it. He can do what he wants. However, (I hope Leafs management is reading this) just because a man has done great things IN THE PAST for your hockey club, does not mean you should feel obligated to give him 5.5 million a year. Yes, Sundin was and still is a great player. Yes, Sundin is a fan favourite and a great leader. But the man is 38 years old. It is time for the Leafs to have a new face. So Fletcher, do not resign Sundin unless you can get him for really cheap. Free up some cap room and go after a big name this offseason.
And SuperSakic, come on! Grow up!
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
|
|
|
SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 08:27:44
|
To Slozo:
quote:Originally posted by slozo
You don't think that deserves respect?!? If so, your momma didn't raise you right, punk!
My reading comprehension is just fine....I don't know where you learned your vocabulary from but I consider being called a "punk" as name calling.
Ergo, my reaction.... If you were just being facetious and quoting a line from some movie or something, then I apologize for not knowing where that line came from.
I understand the word "respect" perfectly. I understand that respect is a two-way street.
Management is perfectly within their right to ask Sundin to waive his NTC. There is nothing wrong in asking a player to waive. They asked him and he said no. End of story. They didn't pull any chicanery and try to muscle him to get him to waive.
You can throw all the stats at me you want but that still doesn't change the fact that it was management's decision to award Sundin the contract. Sundin did not win it in some kind of lottery. Are you going to tell me that Tucker, Kubina, and McCabe all EARNED their NTCs? If they all had stats like Mats' then I would maybe agree with your point. I personally think that NO player DESERVES a NTC. That includes Wayne and Mario. As I said before I was playing at Devil's Advocate, so I was speaking from the standpoint that management should have treated Sundin as an employee, which he essentially is. He gets a pay cheque by the organization so that makes him their property.
Have they disrespected Sundin in the past in any way? I don't recall, so maybe Sundin should be the one showing a little respect for the organization that hired him and puts money in his pocket?
I also apologize to anyone who was offended by my initial response to Slozo. |
|
|
|
ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 08:52:03
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by SuperSakic[/i]
I also apologize to anyone who was offended by my initial response to Slozo.
It's all good! We forgive easy!
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
|
|
|
Guest2882
( )
|
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 11:13:15
|
| Could Sundin not have got traded to another team (resulting in quality young players going to Toronto) and then leave that team and go back to the leafs for the start of next season? Wouldn't this give Sundin a chance at winning a cup this year and perhaps more importantly, give himself a better chance at doing well next year with Toronto? By him waiving the NTC he demonstrated just how much he loves playing for the Leafs and that he wants to stay there. Is it not worth leaving for a couple months (while gaining a chance to win the cup) to only return to his home in Toronto and to a better team with a brighter future? |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 13:36:11
|
Supersakic - again, the whole "then your momma" was directed towards ANYONE who disagreed with my response - again, I didn't use personal pronouns or anything for that phrase - and, once again, I would have thought anyone could have caught the joking tone of the whole thing.
Water under the bridge.
Thorntonis the man - fair enough on Maurice, I still disagree though. I'm not saying he's perfect for this team, but in the end, it's the players who win and lose the game. I know what you are saying about the Leafs competing great against the Detroits and Ottawas of the world and failing against middling teams - but you could say that about most teams this year. It's been a very, very strange year to say the least, and that to me is more a symptom of parity than the Leafs play. I think the younger the team is, the better Maurice will coach them. We're half Marlies now, and they're on a good run . . .
And about this contract, and looking on it as a business:
I have worked in the business world. When entering into any business venture - like re-hiring a contract employee in this case or negotiating a contract - you look at past history, you look at work performance, you look at results, and you also consider the intangibles of the working relationship. This "employee" - Sundin - was the business team leader, and despite being surrounded by incompetent employees, he was a consistent producer of results. He gets better offers from a couple of your competitors; but he turns them down, electing to stay with the company he loves, and has stayed with for so long. He is only looking for a decent retirement package, reflective of his contribution.
I would have offered him a two year contract with the third as an option. Golden parachute.
But in business, I'm one of those funny guys that likes to give back respect when it is given to me. It's a lesson that the Leafs would do well to learn.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 20:31:14
|
Arguing over the Leafs? The Leafs don't even argue over their own play. They all know they are in trouble, ya'll mideswell just acknowledge it also.
Sens are also in trouble. But, it's not the topic. Don't bother Alex.
Irvine |
|
|
|
PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 21:01:06
|
Sundin does not owe the Leafs...
If he was one of the worst players on the team, and not the best then there would be an issue, when you are the best player that they have ever had, you should not ask him to waive his NTC, you should offer him a contarct, and keep him around...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img] |
|
|
|
Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 22:39:28
|
| Everything Slozo said in regards to Sundin is correct. Sundin was offered more money to sign a two year deal. He decided that he was going to take it one year at a time and offered his services to the Leafs for this year at a reduced rate of pay if they would give him a no trade clause. He stated upon signing the deal that he wanted to retire a Maple Leaf and he would decide over the off season weather he would play next season or retire. There is no more to it than that. He is a person of his word and has no desire to play for some other crappy team just to win the Cup. I personally can not understand why so many of you seem to want to put so much spin on this thing. There is just something special about a guy these days with his kind of integrity and leadership. He wants to win a Stanley Cup with the Leafs, and if he doesn't then he can retire knowing that he gave it his best and he leaves with his dignity in tact. He has never quit on his team or his belief in himself and is the best Leaf of all time regardless of weather he wins or doesn't win the Cup. This is a very special person indeed!!!!!!! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Did Sundin Owe the Leafs a Trade? 
