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Guest5372
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 Posted - 10/22/2008 : 13:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Dog
I have some nice stats comparison for you as well guest 5372:
Osgood 1995-96 GP 50 W 39 L 6 T 5 SO 5 GAA 2.17 SP 0.911
The winner of the vezina was jim carey, had 35 wins, 2.26GAA, and 0.906 save pct. Osgood has better stats in all those categories, only shutouts, 9 to osgood's 5, did Carey have over osgood that particular year.
Stats are stats they cant be directly skewed only perceptively skewed. Trophy voting however goes by opinion, like us, we debate, they choose, we debate again. I personnally think the 95-96 osgood season is a vezina worthy one...if you really want to go the hardware way. But I will still say he should not be voted in first year he is eligible, but he does deserve a little credit for consistency, perseverance (being a backup for a few seasons has killed some careers, no?)
First of all let's leave Scotty out of this as he is in the HOF not as a player. But like Phil Jackson, is he lucky to have such great teams or do great team need him to take them to the glory? That I guess is a whole other thread.
Those stats you present can definitely be skewed. I mean Osgood played for the mighty Wings that season. Who did Jim Carey play with? The Caps. Compare Detroit's line up vs the Caps line up and figure out how is it that Carrey could put up such numbers?
I've said it before, he will be considered, due to his high win totals and the 3+ cups. But the same people who vote to hand out trophies are the same (yeah I know it is not the same people but you know what I mean) that vote to get players in the Hall. So if they don't give him any of the voted trophies, they are unlikely giving him entry to the Hall. |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2008 : 15:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
I didn't vote on this yet, I'm kind of on the edge with Osgood. I see how great he is, he has almost 400 wins and he has won 3 cups, but he does have a great team infront of him. Usually I don't have any problem with goalies having great players protecting them, such as in Brodeurs case, but his case isn't as extreme.
This is the one thing that may push Osgood out of the hall. When Hasek went to ottawa, he was terrible, and you could see, he was showing signs he was aging. Latere in the season, he was beat out for the starting job by Emery. Then the next season, hasek comes over to Detroit and BEATS OSGOOD for the starting job and has a great season.
Could Hasek have just had one bad year, it's possible, but I doubt it. Detroit is the powerhouse of the NHL and the oldest most experienced team. seeing guys like Legace and Hasek having so much succes there and not having much elsewhere (excluding Hasek's earlier days) I'm really on the fence whether Osgood does in fact belong in the Hall. If he manages 500 wins, then he definitely belongs, but other wise it's tough to tell.
Ellis or Renne....
ELLIS
Go Preds Go!
As for Hasek's stint with Ottawa, he actually started out great, holding the second best save % and GAA in the NHL. That is until the Olympics where he got injured and therefore did not play the rest of the year. Just to let you know.
And you're saying Hasek wasn't successful with other teams? The guy won 6 vezinas, 2 harts and 2 Lester B. Pearson awards before he even played with Detroit.
Oh, sorry, I must have gotten my facts mixed up with Emery replacing him. But I don remember even when he returned Ermery was starting ahead of him. I did mention though that Hasek was great in Buffalo.
Ellis or Renne....
ELLIS
Go Preds Go! |
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/22/2008 : 23:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Ok I completely hear what you say in regards to "if he would have been on another team he would have done worse." Well I think it's unfair to assume anything. The Hall of Fame committee won't pick players based on what could have happened if he were to be on a different team. There is no scientific explanation to determine how many wins he would have gotten on an otherwise mediocre or bad team.
What we do know is that Osgood can win. Even on NYI and St. Louis, Osgood had a winning record.
All i'm saying is that i don't think one of the criteria on the Hall of Fame committee is "how many wins would he have gotten on THIS team." I think if he reaches 3rd all time in wins like he's on pace to do, that cannot be overlooked, no matter what team he played for. In my opinion I agree on any other team he would probably not be as successful, but that's just my opinion. Mark my word, if he does in fact reach third all time in wins he will be in the Hall. Only time will tell, though.
See, this is where you are incorrect. Osgood did not have a winning record away from Detroit. His win percentage with NYI and St. Louis was 47%. He did not win more than 1/2 of his games.
And I definately think that the HOF considers things like the strength of a team. Consider Andy Moog. He is 13th on the wins list with 372. He posted solid numbers through out his career, but with very solid teams. He played for the Oilers and Bruins through the 80's, then Minnesota and Dallas in the 90's. However, he (like Osgood) played only around 40 games a year on average and was a back up for about 1/2 of his career. He also has 4 Cup Rings.
Problem is, just like with Osgood, any other above average goalie would have won on those teams.
If Osgood deserves to be in, shouldn't Moog, Burke, and Billy Smith be there as well???
Not in my eyes.
Moog did squat after he left the Oilers and did not really do much with them either as it was primarily Grant Fuhr who carried the team as starter in the playoffs in 84, 85, 87 and 88.
You talk about the stats revealing the picture but then you conveniently ignore stats with your suggestions...Andy Moog won 315 games in 713 starts and only had ONE season with over 30 wins. Including up to last season Osgood has won 363 games in only 683 starts. So sorry Moog does not compare to Osgood.
Osgood away from Detroit at least can lay claim to 2 "30" win seasons out of 3 away from Detroit. And Osgood can lay claim to 2 Stanley Cup wins as starter in the playoffs.
"Any above average goalie would have won on those teams"...at least in terms of the playoffs, that is dead wrong. So Hasek was not an above average goalie last season????
Billy Smith is in the Hall of Fame with only 305 wins and a G.A.A of 3.17 (granted he did play in a higher scoring era.)
Burke? Why? Burke never won any Stanley Cups, never won any individual awards, does not have the 400 wins Osgood could/should have. Plus wikipedia says Burke pleaded guilty to beating his wife, I don't think the selection committe overlooks that type of stuff anymore.
The selection committee looks or at least looked highly upon Dyansty type teams hence Grant Fuhr getting in with a career G.A.A. of 3.38 (he was the starter for the four '80s Cups not Moog), hence Billy Smith getting into the Hall. Fuhr and Smith both had great teams in front of them yet that did not hurt them.
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/22/2008 : 23:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Dog
For the people who said that he shouldn't get into the hall of fame because he had a stacked team in front of him, please take the following into account. One of the great goaltenders of all-time ken Dryden played in the 70's, correct? Here is the 72-73 lineup that won the cup.
Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Jacques Laperriere, Bob Murdoch, Pierre Bouchard, Jim Roberts, Yvan Cournoyer, Frank Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire, Pete Mahovlich, Marc Tardif, Henri Richard, Rejean Houle, Guy Lafleur, Chuck Lefley, Claude Larose, Murray Wilson, Steve Shutt, Michel Plasse And scotty bowman as a coach.
Now Dryden is a H.O.F. member and isn't even questioned as to the reason he's there, YET we could make the argument that 6 cups in 8 years is inflated with a team like this, with so much talent.
I just think it's worth noting that just about all the goaltenders, players, coaches that have made it to the HOF had great teams. Kurri probably doesn't make it without gretzky, bowman coached the habs in their prime and detroit in their prime. If osgood is a little guilty of the "stacked team effect" than we need to boot half the players in the HOF to start with. Teams win battles, teams win games, teams win cups, only extrordinary players (orr, gretzky, etc.) are exceptions. Hasek is going to be a hall of famer, and he was pulled last playoffs for petes sake!, so osgood could take over.
The stats are there to me, even if he wasnt as good on other teams (see previous statement) but it shouldn't matter, and I see no other reason why not to let him in.
"If osgood is a little guilty of the "stacked team effect" than we need to boot half the players in the HOF to start with."
Great point. |
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/22/2008 : 23:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6408
[quote]Originally posted by Guest0386
you have got to be kidding with this question, Osgood was only succesful in both stints in Detroit because of the teams in front of him. Look at his play with average teams in the Islanders and Blues, he just plain sucked, not HOF material. Raycroft could have looked good in detroit too! Maybe he should go to the HOF! How about Manny Legace he was stellar in Detroit too! How about every goalie who played in Detroit on the cup winning teams. Mike Vernon and Domonic Hasek are the only goalies from Detroit worth a nod to the HOF
[/average teams the blues and islanders sucked when he played for thm
Dude, you tell people to look at his play with average teams...did YOU look? I say when he was healthy he did pretty damn good away from Detroit!
I did, let's see:
01-02* NYI GP66 W32 L25 T6 GA156 G.A.A2.50 SO4 PCT .910
02-03** NYI GP37 W17 L14 T4 GA97 G.A.A2.92 SO2 PCT .894
02-03 SLB GP9 W4 L3 T2 GA27 G.A.A3.05 SO2 PCT .888
03-04 SLB GP67 W31 L25 T8 GA144 G.A.A2.24 SO3 PCT .910
*01-02: tied franchise record of 32 victories, previously set by Billy Smith in 1981-82 (Granted Smith won 32 in 46 games).
**02-03:
-on a 19-game sideline because of an ankle injury
-became the first goalie in Blues history to record a shutout in the debut for the team. In the playoffs he set another record and became the first goalie in Blues' history to record a shutout in a playoff debut
-after going up 3-1 in the series, the team got sick with the flu and fell to the Canucks seven games.
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/22/2008 : 23:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And to answer the question, no, I don't think Osgood belongs in the Hall. For the reasons I stated above. He has basically been a back up for 1/2 of his career and has had the benefit of playing 85% of his career with one of the top 5 teams in the league. Other goalies produced as well or better playing on worse teams, playing more games, and facing more shots.
I wouldn't put Osgood as a top 5 goalie in the league today let alone a HOFer.
Osgood actually played in the majority of his team's games in 10 of 15 seasons meaning he has been "starter" 66% of the time. He has also played at least 50 games in a season 7 times.
This is how many games Billy Smith played from 1980 onwards: 41, 46, 41, 42, 37, 41, 40, 38, 17 His three highest games played in a single season: 58, 46, 46. Granted the NHL had a shorter schedule but still Billy Smith barely played as a starter from the first Cup year onwards, yet you criticize Osgood for being a backup for half his career.
And quite comparable as their games played are almost identical:
Billy Smith GP: 680 W: 305
Osgood (not including this season) GP: 683 W: 363
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/23/2008 : 00:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
However, his win % with Detroit is over 57% while his win % with the other teams he played for is less than 47%. Playing on a better team gave Osgood more wins. That's simple.
ANY goalie would have more wins playing on a better team just like ANY goalie would have less wins playing on a worse team.
See Raycroft last year versus this year, he already has 2 wins this year!
Last Year: GP 19 GS 16 W 2
This Year: GP 2 GS 2 W 2
See Toskala with SJ versus Toskala with Toronto
SJ 2006-2007 GS 33 W 26 Percentage: 78%
TOR 2007-2008 GS 64 W 33 Percentage: 51%
Obvioulsy to punish a goalie because he accumulated wins playing with a good team is ridiculous, otherwise none of Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr or Patrick Roy would be in the Hall of Fame.
Do you think Roy would be the legendary HoF he is with 4 Cups and the all-time record for wins if he had played with 1980s Maple Leafs and the 1990s SJ Sharks, obvioulsy not. BUT conversely, do you think the 1993 Montreal Canadiens would have won the Cup with Andre Racicot in net, obviously not.
So obviously a good team will benefit a goalie, however, a good goalie will also benefit a team. The KEY thing to look at is how well a good team did with a particular goalie in net, if the goalie sucked the team obviously would not have done well would it? Don't underestimate what Osgood did last season in the playoffs, he made some HUGE saves that were taken for granted, if not for Zetterberg's standout peformance Osgood would have won the Conn Smythe. Hasek played in front of the very same team in the playoffs yet he struggled so a good team does not automatically equal a good goalie. and not ANY goalie would have carried the WIngs to the Cup last season.
And the thing is with Osgood his career is not even yet, so he could yet end up adding another Cup or two as a starter.
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/23/2008 : 00:42:01
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"And the thing is with Osgood his career is not even yet"
Meant to say is not "over" yet.
And regarding my point about Billy Smith playing when the NHL schedule was shorter, I take that back...Terry Sawchuk played when the NHL schedule was even shorter than it was in Smith's era and yet Sawchuk played 60+ games eight times! That makes Smith's games played per season look quite pitiful and he still made the Hall, why??? Because, and only because he was the starting goalie in the playoffs for the Islanders dynasty. In other words, because Smith benefited from playing for a good team. |
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Guest6622
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Posted - 10/23/2008 : 00:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Does Chris Osgood belong in the Hall of Fame? And if so, would he be a first year ballot?
By the way, a BIG gold star to pokermatt12 for coming up with this topic, tremendous topic! You are on your way to the Pickuphockey.com Hall of Fame posting topics like this one. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 01:29:15
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Don't forget the final unofficial criteria for making the HoF: Flash, Panache, and Je Ne Sais Quoi!
Billy Smith had it, Grant Fuhr had it.
Andy Moog did not, and neither does Chris Osgood.
Good thing Glenn Anderson had it because, for him, it overcame the one criteria preventing certain qualified players from making it into the hall: Political Incorrectness off the ice. Patrick Roy has a little bit of this, but he has a LOT more panache!
Claude Provost obviously had no flash, while d*** Duff had more than anyone ever realized! |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 06:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6622
Don't underestimate what Osgood did last season in the playoffs, he made some HUGE saves that were taken for granted, if not for Zetterberg's standout peformance Osgood would have won the Conn Smythe.
It seems that, in most playoff years, the goaltenders from each team that reaches the final is a candidate for the Smythe. With Osgood and Fleury in '08, however, this was not the case. Behind Zetterberg on Detroit were Franzen, Datsyuk and Lidstrom. Either Hossa or Crosby would have surely been picked before Marc-Andre had Pittsburgh won the cup. Doesn't matter anyway. Bill Ranford made more huge saves in 1990 than Osgood did last year, won the Conn Smythe, and will never even be considered for the HOF.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 10:08:38
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I wanted to reply to the guest 6622 that said Moog did squat after leaving the Oilers.
Firstly, he really did pretty good. With the Oilers, Moog won 61% of the games he played, had a GAA of 3.61 and a save % of .886. After he left the Oilers, he won only 43% of his games, had a GAA of 2.70 and a save % of .905. This tells me that Moog played better after leaving the Oilers, but did not win as much. Telling me that much of his success can be attributed to the team he played on. Sound familiar??
And, Moog won 372 of 713 games, not 315 games. And he had 2 seasons of more than 30 wins, not one. And you failed to mention the 7 seasons of 25 or more wins a year. Pretty decent for a guy considering the era of hockey he played in. And, Moog played a little more than 30% of his games with the Oilers.
Osgood, on the other hand has played over 70% of his career with the Red Wings. When he was not with the Red Wing, all of the stats that I discussed about Moog DROPPED.
Above this, your "back up" comment about Moog compared to Osgood is not that strong. Osgood for his career has averages a little more than 44 games a season. Moog averaged 40. No significant difference.
Above the things I pointed out here, let's not forget the eras that the two played in. Osgood's career has been mostly in the "dead puck era" while Moog played almost exclusively in the highest scoring period in NHL history. What does this mean?? Osgood is only marginally better career wise in save % (2% better) and win percentage (2%). Moog had a higher GAA that Osgood by 0.70 and this is when the average goals per game in the NHL was over 7 compared to Osgoods career is a little less than 5.
What does this all mean?? We are comparing goalies from different eras, both played on superstar teams, both were essential part of a goalie team (not playing the majority of the games in a season). With all this, the stats are virtually the same, we are saying that one belongs in the HOF and the other does not???
Makes no sense to me. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 10/23/2008 12:53:11 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 12:51:00
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Great discussion, some good points here, with all kinds of statistics and observations being made.
Quite simply, I would personally say no way to Osgood getting into the HOF. Very good stats on a stacked team for most of his career, no individual awards, and the very telling "only one 2nd team all-star" nomination (thanks to whoever brought that one up).
1 !!! 2nd team! No Awards!
Every HOF goalie has at bunch of all-star appearances, because they were . . . ALL-STARS. They were great, they carried a team at some point, and everyone knew it. Even guys like Cujo ,who played in an era of goalie greatness (Roy, Brodeur, Luongo) - he has . . . well, I can't find it now as I am busy, but I am sure in memory that he has quite a few.
Osgood was never an all-star. He doesn't belong in the HOF.
btw - Curtis Joseph should be in the HOF, IMO - barely.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 12:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Great discussion, some good points here, with all kinds of statistics and observations being made.
Quite simply, I would personally say no way to Osgood getting into the HOF. Very good stats on a stacked team for most of his career, no individual awards, and the very telling "only one 2nd team all-star" nomination (thanks to whoever brought that one up).
1 !!! 2nd team! No Awards!
Every HOF goalie has at bunch of all-star appearances, because they were . . . ALL-STARS. They were great, they carried a team at some point, and everyone knew it. Even guys like Cujo ,who played in an era of goalie greatness (Roy, Brodeur, Luongo) - he has . . . well, I can't find it now as I am busy, but I am sure in memory that he has quite a few.
Osgood was never an all-star. He doesn't belong in the HOF.
btw - Curtis Joseph should be in the HOF, IMO - barely.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Joseph has 3 all star appearances, no 1st or 2nd team all star that I could find, a Olympic Gold(though I don't think he played a game), a Spengler Cup Gold, and the King Clancy Award. |
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 13:23:28
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Ok. Now to beans and whoever wants to answer this, IF Osgood reaches 500 wins, won't he be more likely to get in? I mean i know he's had a team in front of him, but 500 wins is still only accomplished by 2 other goalies- Marty and Roy. Could this not overshadow the fact that he is lacking in awards? Maybe if he retired this year he would be borderline, but I think that if he in fact does play 3-4 more years as a starter with the wings that he could easily attain 500 wins.
I know this is just theoretical and it may not happen, but how could you leave him out and ignore that many wins? We're debating that as of RIGHT NOW if we would put him in, but he might have 2 more cups by the time he retires.
All I'm asking is if you would put him in IF, and ONLY IF he reaches 500. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 14:22:43
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Thanks Beans, now that I have time - I see on the nhl.com website they have him (Curtis Joseph) listed as having been in the 94 and 00 all-star games, not sure about a third one.
I also see Osgood played in the all-star game for years 96, 08.
Bottom line - I still do not see Osgood as an all-star goalie at any point in his career. He played very well last playoffs - but not amazing. He definitely helped win that one round for them (the 2nd, against Nashville, I think), but again - if it wasn't Cujo playing with the Leafs in 01/02, no bloody way they make it past round 1, nevermind 2. If it hadn't been Cujo standing on his head, no way the Blues get to the 2nd round in '93. 97/98 Oilers, he stood on his head to get the Oil to the 2nd round, with a stellar .928 save percentage . . . only his 5th best (at least 4 games played) in the playoffs !!! (.939 for the Wings in '04, .938 for the '93 Blues, .932 and .927 for the '00 and '01 Leafs respectively) .
Osgood's absolute best save percentage in the playoffs was with last year's Champs at .930, and he had .924 in '00. In neither of those years could one say that Osgood was the only reason they won a round or two.
The more I think about it, the more I realise the undeniable fact: Osgood has never been a marquee player, a star player . . . a true all-star. Never.
Guys in the HOF are all-stars. They have all been "one of the best" at something at some point in their careers. They have stolen many games and playoff rounds for sub-par teams, and vaulted good teams to greatness and championships.
Osgood fails it for me.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 15:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Ok. Now to beans and whoever wants to answer this, IF Osgood reaches 500 wins, won't he be more likely to get in? I mean i know he's had a team in front of him, but 500 wins is still only accomplished by 2 other goalies- Marty and Roy. Could this not overshadow the fact that he is lacking in awards? Maybe if he retired this year he would be borderline, but I think that if he in fact does play 3-4 more years as a starter with the wings that he could easily attain 500 wins.
I know this is just theoretical and it may not happen, but how could you leave him out and ignore that many wins? We're debating that as of RIGHT NOW if we would put him in, but he might have 2 more cups by the time he retires.
All I'm asking is if you would put him in IF, and ONLY IF he reaches 500.
First of all, he would have to get to 500 first. I think that's a taller order than what you are stating it is. He has never played more than 67 games in a season. At his current win % of around 55%, he would have to play another 248 games to get the 135 wins that he needs. Lets say for the sake of arguement, he played 60 games a year, it still takes more than 4 seasons to break the 500 plateau. That would make him 40 years old, as a starter for the next 4+ seasons, and playing 60 or more games a year to get to 500. Not likely.
However, speaking purely hypothetically, it's pretty hard to dispute a 500 game winner as HOF caliber. And, winning a few more Cups along the way wouldn't hurt.
But, I can not stress enough, to win 135 games after the age of 35 as a goalie in today's NHL could possibly be the most significant acheivement of the New NHL Generation.
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2008 : 15:25:41
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Ok. Now to beans and whoever wants to answer this, IF Osgood reaches 500 wins, won't he be more likely to get in? I mean i know he's had a team in front of him, but 500 wins is still only accomplished by 2 other goalies- Marty and Roy. Could this not overshadow the fact that he is lacking in awards? Maybe if he retired this year he would be borderline, but I think that if he in fact does play 3-4 more years as a starter with the wings that he could easily attain 500 wins.
I know this is just theoretical and it may not happen, but how could you leave him out and ignore that many wins? We're debating that as of RIGHT NOW if we would put him in, but he might have 2 more cups by the time he retires.
All I'm asking is if you would put him in IF, and ONLY IF he reaches 500.
He simply won't reach 500 wins, he doesn't have the talent. He's getting old. He may only have a couple years left and right now he's at something like 370 wins. If he theoretically did reach 500 wins then i'd ay yes, but he won't
Ellis or Renne....
ELLIS
Go Preds Go! |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2008 : 00:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
Don't forget the final unofficial criteria for making the HoF: Flash, Panache, and Je Ne Sais Quoi!
Billy Smith had it, Grant Fuhr had it.
Andy Moog did not, and neither does Chris Osgood.
Good thing Glenn Anderson had it because, for him, it overcame the one criteria preventing certain qualified players from making it into the hall: Political Incorrectness off the ice. Patrick Roy has a little bit of this, but he has a LOT more panache!
Claude Provost obviously had no flash, while d*** Duff had more than anyone ever realized!
Uh...OK..."Richard Duff"??? Widely known as d*** Duff...
D ick Duff?? |
Edited by - 99pickles on 10/24/2008 00:44:28 |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2008 : 07:43:36
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My prediction is that Osgood never comes close to the 500 wins mark; in fact, I think starting next year some time he'll be relegated to a back-up role for someone, maybe even the Wings.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2008 : 07:48:52
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| Halak could very well be wearing red next year, not montreal red though. |
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Guest6690
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 11:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
Don't forget the final unofficial criteria for making the HoF: Flash, Panache, and Je Ne Sais Quoi!
Billy Smith had it, Grant Fuhr had it.
Andy Moog did not, and neither does Chris Osgood.
Good thing Glenn Anderson had it because, for him, it overcame the one criteria preventing certain qualified players from making it into the hall: Political Incorrectness off the ice. Patrick Roy has a little bit of this, but he has a LOT more panache!
Claude Provost obviously had no flash, while d*** Duff had more than anyone ever realized!
Fair point, that certain "je ne sais quois" can certainly help but I do not see it as a requirement. See Bernie Federko, Larry Murphy, Dale Hawerchuk. Just good solid player that produced and have some records of significance.
Not sure what you are talking about in reference to Glenn Anderson, he is not in the Hall. And I did not see him as having that extra something anyways. |
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Guest4070
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 11:11:14
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I believe he should and will make it, but not first time voting.
Why?
I know a lot of you people are saying he's always been good, but never great...playing on the best team in the league..and so forth...
Has everyone forgotten that the Red Wings were underachievers in the playoffs for atlease 5-6 years? Winning the presidence trophy just to be kicked outta the first or second round?
Osgood..was the goalie who brought the detroit back to back trophies...
Yes a lot of goalies will and can win ( in regular season ) playing for detroit but Osgood are one of the goalies that can preform under a heck of a lot more pressure and for bigger games. For ex. Legacy played great for detroit during the regular season, when post season came along, he dropped..like a bomb. So did cujo. I believe Osgood will earn a spot in the HOF despite not winning any hardwares. Forsure he ain't no hasek or broduer, goalies who can steal games despite getting owned in every category during the game, but he's up to the challange and delivers when it's most needed.
I also don't believe he'll hit the 500 mark..i'm going to say aroudn 450-460, if he can bring detroit far back into the playoffs this year, he should be sticking with them for another 2-3 years (If it's gonna be a 35win a season which reasonable 50-55 starts average) he should be able to hit that mark no problem. Then again, this season is the season he has to prove to everyone that he's a guy they can rely on. (i'm sure we all remember when cujo played for detroit and he SUCKED, so not all goalies, who plays for detroit, would look better than they should.) |
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Guest6690
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 11:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
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Originally posted by Guest6622
Don't underestimate what Osgood did last season in the playoffs, he made some HUGE saves that were taken for granted, if not for Zetterberg's standout peformance Osgood would have won the Conn Smythe.
It seems that, in most playoff years, the goaltenders from each team that reaches the final is a candidate for the Smythe. With Osgood and Fleury in '08, however, this was not the case. Behind Zetterberg on Detroit were Franzen, Datsyuk and Lidstrom. Either Hossa or Crosby would have surely been picked before Marc-Andre had Pittsburgh won the cup. Doesn't matter anyway. Bill Ranford made more huge saves in 1990 than Osgood did last year, won the Conn Smythe, and will never even be considered for the HOF.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009.
Probably but I think the fact Osgood came in place of Hasek made what he did an even bigger deal, even though he was still overshadowed. Lidstrom was good, but not Conn Smythe good, same with Datsyuk but he would have deserved it more than Lidstrom, Franzen missed games with injury and did not have a big Final so it would been unfair to give to him. I think Kronwall would have been at least third in line.
Bill Ranford...come one we need more criteria than just one big playoff. Seems like you are implying because Ranford did not get with his Conn Smythe that Osgood will not get in? Ranford never really did much else in the NHL, never had even a 30 win season, "only" won 240 games, career G.A.A. of 3.40. I think the Hall would be a joke if Ranford made it. |
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Guest6690
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 11:25:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6690
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
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Originally posted by Guest6622
Don't underestimate what Osgood did last season in the playoffs, he made some HUGE saves that were taken for granted, if not for Zetterberg's standout peformance Osgood would have won the Conn Smythe.
It seems that, in most playoff years, the goaltenders from each team that reaches the final is a candidate for the Smythe. With Osgood and Fleury in '08, however, this was not the case. Behind Zetterberg on Detroit were Franzen, Datsyuk and Lidstrom. Either Hossa or Crosby would have surely been picked before Marc-Andre had Pittsburgh won the cup. Doesn't matter anyway. Bill Ranford made more huge saves in 1990 than Osgood did last year, won the Conn Smythe, and will never even be considered for the HOF.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009.
Probably but I think the fact Osgood came in place of Hasek made what he did an even bigger deal, even though he was still overshadowed. Lidstrom was good, but not Conn Smythe good, same with Datsyuk but he would have deserved it more than Lidstrom, Franzen missed games with injury and did not have a big Final so it would been unfair to give to him. I think Kronwall would have been at least third in line.
Bill Ranford...come one we need more criteria than just one big playoff. Seems like you are implying because Ranford did not get with his Conn Smythe that Osgood will not get in? Ranford never really did much else in the NHL, never had even a 30 win season, "only" won 240 games, career G.A.A. of 3.40. I think the Hall would be a joke if Ranford made it.
Actually Ranford did have one 30 win season in 95-96 (a season he split with Edmonton and Boston) but still Ranford is nowhere near Hall-worthy. |
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Guest6690
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 13:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I wanted to reply to the guest 6622 that said Moog did squat after leaving the Oilers.
Firstly, he really did pretty good. With the Oilers, Moog won 61% of the games he played, had a GAA of 3.61 and a save % of .886. After he left the Oilers, he won only 43% of his games, had a GAA of 2.70 and a save % of .905. This tells me that Moog played better after leaving the Oilers, but did not win as much. Telling me that much of his success can be attributed to the team he played on. Sound familiar??
And, Moog won 372 of 713 games, not 315 games. And he had 2 seasons of more than 30 wins, not one. And you failed to mention the 7 seasons of 25 or more wins a year. Pretty decent for a guy considering the era of hockey he played in. And, Moog played a little more than 30% of his games with the Oilers.
Osgood, on the other hand has played over 70% of his career with the Red Wings. When he was not with the Red Wing, all of the stats that I discussed about Moog DROPPED.
Above this, your "back up" comment about Moog compared to Osgood is not that strong. Osgood for his career has averages a little more than 44 games a season. Moog averaged 40. No significant difference.
Above the things I pointed out here, let's not forget the eras that the two played in. Osgood's career has been mostly in the "dead puck era" while Moog played almost exclusively in the highest scoring period in NHL history. What does this mean?? Osgood is only marginally better career wise in save % (2% better) and win percentage (2%). Moog had a higher GAA that Osgood by 0.70 and this is when the average goals per game in the NHL was over 7 compared to Osgoods career is a little less than 5.
What does this all mean?? We are comparing goalies from different eras, both played on superstar teams, both were essential part of a goalie team (not playing the majority of the games in a season). With all this, the stats are virtually the same, we are saying that one belongs in the HOF and the other does not???
Makes no sense to me.
"Telling me that much of his success can be attributed to the team he played on. Sound familiar??"
Sure, sounds like Billy Smith, currently in the Hall.
Sounds like Grant Fuhr, currently in the Hall.
Sounds like Patrick Roy, currently in the Hall.
I am not sure why you are so big on this percentage of games won thing. Patrick Roy barely won more than 50% of his games in most of his seasons, yet he is quite widely an unquestioned Hall Of Famer.
You are so big on stats but then just do not report them accurately or misrepresent them...
Osgood has averaged 47.4 games played per season not 44 (you double counted 2002-2003 when he was traded), plus Osgood also played in the strike-shortened 1994-1995 season. Moog played an average of 39 games per season, not 40, why are you rounding up on 39.6, you are inflating the number to Moog's advantage, meanwhile you conveniently rounded down Osgood from 44.2. 0.6 of a game is excatly that, it is not 1 full game. 7.8 games per season out of 82 is almost 10% more, and bordering on significant.
And just to show you, you are making waaaay too much of this playing with Detroit thing...I listed arguably Osgood's two best seasons with Detroit and his two healthy seasons away from Detroit. Yes I am leaving out Osgood's worst year away from Detroit but he was hurt (ankle injury, big deal for a goalie) and that season is clearly an aberration, plus it is not like Roy never had a losing season)
1995-96 DET GP 50 GS47 W39 L6 T5 G.A.A.2.17 SV% .911
1997-98 DET GP 64 GS64 W33 L20 T11 G.A.A. 2.21 SV% .913
2001-02 NYI GP 66 GS 65 W32 L25 T6 G.A.A. 2.50 SV%.910
2003-04 STL GP 67 GS 65 W31 L25 T8 G.A.A. 2.24 SV%.910
JEE! Don't his stats away from Detroit look almost exactly the same as his stats IN Detroit???? Okay 1995 is an exception but note his wins, goals against average and save percentage barely, went down even though he was playing with worse teams. That is the mark of a solid goalie.
Andy Moog won 30+ games one time in 11 season away from Edmonton, that to me is doing squat. Two 30+ wins in 18 season is, to me, also doing squat.
"both were essential part of a goalie team (not playing the majority of the games in a season)"
Osgood has been the clearcut starter for Detroit more than Moog was ever the clearcut starter for Edmonton.
Osgood won 2 cups as starter for Detroit, Moog won 0 Cups as starter for Edmonton. (The Hall places HUGE emphasis on this otherwise Smith and Fuhr are not that exceptional in the regular season)
Osgood has averaged 26 wins per season, Moog 17.5 wins per season in his career.
Again Moog is not comparable to Osgood and thank you, I think my point is well proven, keep going as much as you want, your attempts will be futile.
"Moog had a higher GAA that Osgood by 0.70 and this is when the average goals per game in the NHL was over 7 compared to Osgoods career is a little less than 5. "
Yes the eras are different so G.A.A. is not really a fair comaprison...but you still reported inaccurate stats, as an attempt to play up Moog. The NHL goals per game average has never once been lower than 5 during Osgood's career. (I didn't even need to look that one up), so where are you getting this "little less than 5" B.S. If you are not sure at least look it up: http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Stats/LeagueGoals.aspx
2007-2008 5.57 -0.32
2006-2007 5.89 -0.28
2005-2006 6.17 +1.03
2003-2004 5.14 -0.17
2002-2003 5.31 +0.07
2001-2002 5.24 -0.28
2000-2001 5.51 +0.02
1999-2000 5.49 +0.23
1998-1999 5.27 -0.01
1997-1998 5.28 -0.56
1996-1997 5.83 -0.45
1995-1996 6.29 +0.31 (Makes Osgood's season look even better)
1994-1995 5.97 -0.51
1993-1994 6.48 -0.77
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Guest6690
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 13:21:37
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I think Osgood's last few seasons will tell the tale...and he would not need 500 wins to make it to the Hall. The key number of wins in my opinion: 400 and 352 as a Red Wing.
400 places him in the top 10 all-time
352 makes him the winnigest goalie in Red WIngs history (Sawchuk in 351 in 734 games as a Wing...279 in 485 for Osgood). The Hall places HUGE importance on career team records, especially for a team that has been around as long as Detroit)
Osgood has been the predominant starter for the most dominant team of its era, clearly he must be pretty good to have been the starter and to have carried the team to 2 Cups. Not ANY goalie can win in the playoffs with Detroit, that is well established.
I think he well on track to be in the Hall but he is not sure a thing and it could still be screwed up. Another 3, maybe 2 30+ win seasons, 400 wins, all time winningest goalie I think gives him a great shot....all that plus 1 more Cup as starter...he becomes legendary and is a lock for the Hall.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2008 : 17:23:03
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OK, I am not going to get into a huge stat's war here, it's not my point.
I do want to comment on a couple of things.
1) OK, call me a liar for my less than 5 goals a game average. But, can you not deny the difference in offense league wide when Moog (1980-1998) played when the goals per game averaged 7.1 and Osgood (1994-2008) the average has been 5.6??
2) If I double counted Osgood's average, it's an oversight. But I am not sure why you would question rounding 39.6 up to 40?? Should we check with an junior high math student on that?? Should we also check on the rounding from 44.2???
3) My math tells me that 372 wins over 18 seasons is 21 wins per season (20.6 rounded up) for Moog while you are correct with Osgood's 26/season.
Regardless, we could go back and forth on this for years. My point, regardless of your agreement or not, is that Osgood and Moog are not THAT far apart in sucesses and the fact they both played on talented hockey teams.
All I am saying is that Moog is not even close to being considered as a HOF goalie, so how can Osgood?? |
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Guest4307
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 20:05:34
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| bean you are off your rocker comparing moog who i was a huge fan of to osgoode not even close win total is win total whether they are scoring 8 goals a game or five just idea take out edm stats or even just gretzky stat what is goal a game avg im thinking it will be around 5- 6. so the other team scored 7 edm scored 8 i coulda played net for them and won 30 |
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Guest4307
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Posted - 10/24/2008 : 20:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Great discussion, some good points here, with all kinds of statistics and observations being made.
Quite simply, I would personally say no way to Osgood getting into the HOF. Very good stats on a stacked team for most of his career, no individual awards, and the very telling "only one 2nd team all-star" nomination (thanks to whoever brought that one up).
1 !!! 2nd team! No Awards!
Every HOF goalie has at bunch of all-star appearances, because they were . . . ALL-STARS. They were great, they carried a team at some point, and everyone knew it. Even guys like Cujo ,who played in an era of goalie greatness (Roy, Brodeur, Luongo) - he has . . . well, I can't find it now as I am busy, but I am sure in memory that he has quite a few.
Osgood was never an all-star. He doesn't belong in the HOF.
btw - Curtis Joseph should be in the HOF, IMO - barely.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Joseph has 3 all star appearances, no 1st or 2nd team all star that I could find, a Olympic Gold(though I don't think he played a game), a Spengler Cup Gold, and the King Clancy Award.
gold medal u got be kidding sweden blew him out and the only reason he was there was quinn was his coach and even he yanked and put him in the press box not even backup six goals i beleive and all stars votes are popularity contest not actual best players that yr. ps remember rob zettler going to worlds |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2008 : 05:02:17
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Thank you, Guest 4307, for your insightful input. Do you have an actual point to make, other than slagging Joseph? As you should be able to read in my posts on this subject, I brought up Joseph as a comparison to Osgood, and noted each player's HOF worthiness IMO. Nothing more, nothing less.
The subject remains Osgood, and whether he gets in the HOF.
Guest 4307 is partially correct, in that the All-Star game is *sometimes* (but not always) a popularity contest. Especially in the last 20 years, there have been some eyebrow raising picks and ommissions to be sure.
But you missed my point; I was using all star appearances as the only stat which would show "stardom" or "greatness". It's one of those things that can't truly be measured, so the only thing I could point to is how I felt that Joseph was an "all-star", and how Osgood wasn't - IMO.
A question to the fence-sitters: In all of Osgood's years of playing, point to any year where you would have rated him for the season as one of the top three goalies. Just give me one season, please.
Over Osgood's entire career (and I just looked over it year by year, comparing him to the other goalies by viewing stats and recalling the year in my memory), I have him top 6 once: last year 07/08, I rate him as #6 behind Lundqvist, Leclaire, Giguere, Brodeur, Luongo. Please don't forget that Osgood won the cup last year coming in from a BACK-UP role to Hasek. Yes, he had a great season, and yes, he is a solid goalie; but I would have taken those other 5 goalies first that year.
Osgood has never been one of the best in the game in all of the years I've watched him. He has been a solid player, a consistent back-up - but not an all-star. Heck, look throught his career, and note how many times Detroit had him as the back-up option, or at the very most, plan B in goal.
You won't be able to convince me with wins or GAA. They are important stats, don't get me wrong - but they don't show the whole picture.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2008 : 15:35:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6690
quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
Don't forget the final unofficial criteria for making the HoF: Flash, Panache, and Je Ne Sais Quoi!
Billy Smith had it, Grant Fuhr had it.
Andy Moog did not, and neither does Chris Osgood.
Good thing Glenn Anderson had it because, for him, it overcame the one criteria preventing certain qualified players from making it into the hall: Political Incorrectness off the ice. Patrick Roy has a little bit of this, but he has a LOT more panache!
Claude Provost obviously had no flash, while d*** Duff had more than anyone ever realized!
Fair point, that certain "je ne sais quois" can certainly help but I do not see it as a requirement. See Bernie Federko, Larry Murphy, Dale Hawerchuk. Just good solid player that produced and have some records of significance.
Not sure what you are talking about in reference to Glenn Anderson, he is not in the Hall. And I did not see him as having that extra something anyways.
...the original post stated "unofficial criteria" not a requirement...
...are you aware that Glenn Anderson is indeed being inducted into the Hall in a couple of weeks? It was anounced a few months back....
...are you not aware of Anderson's unconventional lifetsyle?....
....you don't think Anderson had a flashy quality to his play when he was bursting around flat-footed defenders and cutting back in to score? Ok then... |
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LuonGod
Top Prospect
Canada
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 11:05:00
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Any decent Goalie could have these stats in hockey town!!!!!! Osgood is good, but not great. I could be wrong, but dont his glory days come on unbelievabley talented teams? Lang is decent, but he was incredible with Jagr and Mario.
Never ever cut what can be untied!!!! |
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Topic |
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Does Osgood Belong in the Hall of Fame? 
