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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
 Posted - 12/23/2008 : 09:19:41
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i think its obvious now that despite being one of the greatest of all time brodeur is not the heart and soul of the devils lineup as people have made him out to be,
Pasty
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 10:55:59
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It's the regular season. Try running this team into the playoffs without Brodeur and see what happens.
This team also got a lot of players back from injury since Brodeur has gone done. Above that, there are players on New Jersey's team (namely Elias, Parise, Gionta) who are on pace for career seasons. And although I think Clemenson has done more than a fine job of holding down the fort, he's still a back up goalie. Just one who is hot right now. Same thing happened in Pittburgh last season. Conklin was hot when Crosby was out. Take that away from the equation and I don't think what Malkin did last year would have been enough. Same thing is happening in Jersey this year. Hot goalie, players stepping up. Still doesn't mean the team will only go as far as Brodeur will take them.
Just a hate on for Brodeur in my opinion. |
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 11:44:31
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i personally dont think he is the best goalie. i mean just like patrick roy hes always had a stacked defence infront of him. and i mean NJ doesnt have that many d-man who are always talked about, but they still can play the trap pretty good. and right now scotty clemmenson who has always ben a pretty bad goalie, even in the AHL with the marlies who were very good last year. AND HES LOOKING AMAZING WITH THE NET TO HIMSELF. and he has played good but not nearly as good as some other goalies with bad teams. he only looks that good because hes getting backed up by his team.
not saying he's a bad goalie. he is one of the leagues best, he can make highlight reel, game saving top notch tops. but i personally think he is not the best.
Leafsfan_94
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2008 : 15:45:55
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| Gentlemen, Brodeur is without a doubt the best active goalie in the league even though he is injured right now. I will give you one scenerio to think about and debate. If Brodeur played for the Wings or Sharks this year, they would have a near perfect season, I would venture to say 10 losses or less! That is what Brodeur would bring to the best teams in the NHL right now. Luongo may be a very close second but Brodeur is definetly not all about the team that plays in front of him. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 05:59:09
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No, it's not obvious, Pasty. In fact, I still think Brodeur is the best goalie out there, I would still take him over Lundqvist or Luongo in the playoffs with the game on the line.
I admit, I banked on the Devils tanking a lot more than now . . . hell, they haven't tanked at all, instead, they've moved up! But it doesn't change my view of Brodeur one bit, because I remember a ton of times that great players have been out of a line-up and what should have happened didn't. I remember Crosby being out, Sundin for the Leafs that one year, Sakic one year, Briere . . . and even Luongo now as well. The list could go on and on for talented players who anyone would want on their team going out, and for some reason everyone else picks it up and plays better. It happens.
I still think Brodeur is one of the top two all-time best goalies ever.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 09:05:32
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Here here Slozo. Well put.
Not only is Brodeur one of the top two goalies all time, he is still one of the top two goalies in the league TODAY! The only really near equal to him is Luongo, but I still put my money on Broduer. The other greats in the game today being Lundqvist, Kiprusoff, and Nabokov are not a distant teir below, but not on the same level of Brodeur and Luongo.
I would bet significant money that if you polled every GM and coach in the league today and asked them if they were starting a playoff run today and could choose any goalie in the league(all thing equal, no injuries etc) that every list would have Brodeur and Luongo on top. Above that, Brodeur would most likely be #1 more often becuase of his experience in winning. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/24/2008 09:07:04 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 09:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
No, it's not obvious, Pasty. In fact, I still think Brodeur is the best goalie out there, I would still take him over Lundqvist or Luongo in the playoffs with the game on the line.
I admit, I banked on the Devils tanking a lot more than now . . . hell, they haven't tanked at all, instead, they've moved up! But it doesn't change my view of Brodeur one bit, because I remember a ton of times that great players have been out of a line-up and what should have happened didn't. I remember Crosby being out, Sundin for the Leafs that one year, Sakic one year, Briere . . . and even Luongo now as well. The list could go on and on for talented players who anyone would want on their team going out, and for some reason everyone else picks it up and plays better. It happens.
I still think Brodeur is one of the top two all-time best goalies ever.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
hmmmm really,,, i can see him 4th on the all time list,,, not much higher then that,,, don't get me wrong he is a brilliant netminder ,, but you keep talking about the playoffs ,, brodeur has not played well in the playoffs for at least 4 years now,,, and by not played well i mean played very poorly ,,, he has never been his team mvp he has always had a supporting cast,,, now im not taking away the remarkable things he has acomplished i beleive we are talking about a brilliant netminder and i can even see the argument for best active,,, though i disagree to disagree would be to say a guy like jari kurri would have been nothing without wayne you cant take those accomplishments away from people i think he is just not as valuable to the new jersey devils as everyone seems to think a bad backup,,,, we're not even talking about a ty conklin we are talking about scott clemenson a bad back up has filled in and done the exact same job...... in my opinion this speaks volumes
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 10:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafsfan_94
i personally dont think he is the best goalie. i mean just like patrick roy hes always had a stacked defence infront of him. and i mean NJ doesnt have that many d-man who are always talked about, but they still can play the trap pretty good. and right now scotty clemmenson who has always ben a pretty bad goalie, even in the AHL with the marlies who were very good last year. AND HES LOOKING AMAZING WITH THE NET TO HIMSELF. and he has played good but not nearly as good as some other goalies with bad teams. he only looks that good because hes getting backed up by his team.
not saying he's a bad goalie. he is one of the leagues best, he can make highlight reel, game saving top notch tops. but i personally think he is not the best.
Leafsfan_94
Actually, as a die-hard Habs fan, I can attest to the fact that Roy has some fairly crappy teams in front of him. And he still posted some lofty numbers. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 10:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
No, it's not obvious, Pasty. In fact, I still think Brodeur is the best goalie out there, I would still take him over Lundqvist or Luongo in the playoffs with the game on the line.
I admit, I banked on the Devils tanking a lot more than now . . . hell, they haven't tanked at all, instead, they've moved up! But it doesn't change my view of Brodeur one bit, because I remember a ton of times that great players have been out of a line-up and what should have happened didn't. I remember Crosby being out, Sundin for the Leafs that one year, Sakic one year, Briere . . . and even Luongo now as well. The list could go on and on for talented players who anyone would want on their team going out, and for some reason everyone else picks it up and plays better. It happens.
I still think Brodeur is one of the top two all-time best goalies ever.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
hmmmm really,,, i can see him 4th on the all time list,,, not much higher then that,,, don't get me wrong he is a brilliant netminder ,, but you keep talking about the playoffs ,, brodeur has not played well in the playoffs for at least 4 years now,,, and by not played well i mean played very poorly ,,, he has never been his team mvp he has always had a supporting cast,,, now im not taking away the remarkable things he has acomplished i beleive we are talking about a brilliant netminder and i can even see the argument for best active,,, though i disagree to disagree would be to say a guy like jari kurri would have been nothing without wayne you cant take those accomplishments away from people i think he is just not as valuable to the new jersey devils as everyone seems to think a bad backup,,,, we're not even talking about a ty conklin we are talking about scott clemenson a bad back up has filled in and done the exact same job...... in my opinion this speaks volumes
Pasty
The stats say he is going to be pretty much regarded as the best of all time. Barring a disaster, he is going to hold pretty much all of the significant records there are for goalies. It could be argued that Brodeur makes his defences better because of the confidence he instills in them. Is it any coincidence that they have lost Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski etc, yet he still just keeps clicking along? |
Edited by - Odin on 12/24/2008 10:19:18 |
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2008 : 12:16:22
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roy was a very good goalie. but he only played with 2 teams, the Habs and the Avs in which he won cups with them both because, im only 13, cut my some slack i dont know all that much about the habs teams in the later 80's but ive been told they were a good defensive team, and colorado
just off the top of my hand i can name some top notch players
Joe Sakic
Milan Hedjuk
Paul Kariya
Teemu Selanne
Rob Blake
Adam Foote
Ray Borque( in the end of his career but still)
David Aebischer made a good back up, when he used to be good
Alex Tanguay
Peter Forsberg
Chris Drury,
put him on the 06-07 or 07-08 leafs and he wouldnt have looked as good and everyone thinks he was.
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
Originally posted by Leafsfan_94
i personally dont think he is the best goalie. i mean just like patrick roy hes always had a stacked defence infront of him. and i mean NJ doesnt have that many d-man who are always talked about, but they still can play the trap pretty good. and right now scotty clemmenson who has always ben a pretty bad goalie, even in the AHL with the marlies who were very good last year. AND HES LOOKING AMAZING WITH THE NET TO HIMSELF. and he has played good but not nearly as good as some other goalies with bad teams. he only looks that good because hes getting backed up by his team.
not saying he's a bad goalie. he is one of the leagues best, he can make highlight reel, game saving top notch tops. but i personally think he is not the best.
Leafsfan_94
Actually, as a die-hard Habs fan, I can attest to the fact that Roy has some fairly crappy teams in front of him. And he still posted some lofty numbers.
Leafsfan_94
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2008 : 08:21:11
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"hmmmm really,,, i can see him 4th on the all time list,,, not much higher then that,,, don't get me wrong he is a brilliant netminder ,, but you keep talking about the playoffs ,, brodeur has not played well in the playoffs for at least 4 years now,,, and by not played well i mean played very poorly ,,, he has never been his team mvp he has always had a supporting cast,,, now im not taking away the remarkable things he has acomplished i beleive we are talking about a brilliant netminder and i can even see the argument for best active,,, though i disagree to disagree would be to say a guy like jari kurri would have been nothing without wayne you cant take those accomplishments away from people i think he is just not as valuable to the new jersey devils as everyone seems to think a bad backup,,,, we're not even talking about a ty conklin we are talking about scott clemenson a bad back up has filled in and done the exact same job...... in my opinion this speaks volumes"
Corrections:
#1 - He has been his team's MVP for almost every every year, save for perhaps that one year Elias had a career season.
#2 - He has not always had a great supporting cast. The last few years has seen the departure of their best defencemen, as an example, and yet they haven't fallen out of the playoffs like many had predicted they would.
#3 - Clemmenson is not a bad back-up, he has been an OK back-up. He is also hot right now, and so is the NJD offense, and there are still a lot of games to play without Brodeur. Clemmenson has played 17 games, and that does not make a season.
#4 - Let's not forget that Weekes, the guy who at first was picked up to fill-in for Brodeur initially with Clemmenson as the back-up still - he fell flat with a 2-4-0 record, which is why they were forced to go with the hot back-up Clemmenson.
Record with Brodeur this year: 6-2-2 (2.16 GAA)
Record without Brodeur this year: 13-8-1 (2.22 & 3.06 GAA for Clemmenson, Weekes)
The Devils continue playing some of the top teams in the East in the next few games, and I really can't see Clemmenson staying hot for too much longer.
When Brodeur gets back, then we'll talk!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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i think its clear now brodeur is NOT the best 
