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Guest6177
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Posted - 02/01/2009 :  08:54:16  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Best goal scorer ever

Choices:

Gordie Howe
Wayne Gretzky
Mike Bossy
Maurice Richard
Alex Ovechkin
Pavel Bure
Mario Lemueix
Bret Hull
Bobby Hull
Mike Gartner
Other (who)

Guest6177
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Posted - 02/01/2009 :  08:58:48  Reply with Quote
I said Bure. When you score multi 60 goal seasons in as short as a career he did thats good
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Guest9847
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Posted - 02/01/2009 :  09:52:26  Reply with Quote
Guys like Ovechkin are too young to judge. I said Howe because for his time (like 50 years before my time) he was the best and he set most of the records Gretzky and other guys like that had to break.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2009 :  10:58:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike Bossy was the best pure goal scorer to ever play the game. The next level behind that were both Hulls, Esposito, Gretzky, and Howe.

Ultimately, Bossy was off the charts. Considering the length of his career, what he did was nothing short of amazing. Sure, he only had 573 goals, but that was in only 752 games. He has 9 (yes 9 ) seasons of his 10 in the NHL with more than 50 goals. 5 of those were more than 60 goals.

And, I think of Bossy very much like Gretzky. He did not have a ton of physical gifts. He was not fast as was Bure and Bobby Hull. He did not have the most powerful shot like Brett Hull and Bobby Hull. He was not tough as nails as Esposito was. He just found a way to score goals.


To me, there are some that are close, but not ahead or even on par with Mike Bossy.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2009 :  14:12:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bobby Hull was the best goal scorer. The statistics support this as well. Relative to what the rest of the league was doing Hull dominated scoring more than anyone else has relative to when they played.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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Thrasher
Rookie



Canada
155 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2009 :  20:49:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Surprised Maurice isn't getting more support, he does have the trophy named after him. I am not old enough to say people like Bobby Hull because i never watched them play. I did however see Pavel Bure play, and was absolutly electric. So many goals were highlight reals and his speed was unmatched. Injurys and signing with Florida may ahve hampered his career, but i still think he could have been one of the games best scorers.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  10:14:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willus my man, just a couple of quick questions.

Is Hull your man because of the length of time he was so good (statistically speaking) or based on his ability?

Talking purely statistically, Bossy is pretty sick. Bossy had 9-50 goal seasons. Only Gretzky can match that. However, Bossy's 9 were consecutive. No one had done that before or has done that since. Bossy still has the highest career Goals per game average (0.762) and the 2nd highest playoff goals per game behind Lemieux (Mario was 0.710 while Bossy was 0.659).

In comparing that to Hull, including both NHL and WHA, his career reg season was 0.619 and playoff was 0.587. Nothing to complain about at all, but still a little behind Bossy.

And I would also ask if you think that Bossy was more or less impressive due to the lack of a powerful shot or blazing speed as Hull has. Hull (apparently) had a slapshot clocked at 118 Mph, and was able to skate at almosts 30 Mph.


Or, as I re-read your post, it is because he dominated his time in goal scoring more so than the others in his era.

I don't know. I look at Bossy and I think the guy played a reasonable part of his career with back issues and retired at 30. If he could have been healthy, I think he could have had the first and possible only 1000 goal career. Granted, Bossy retired before we could see his skills diminish, but at his pace, 1000 goals would have been reached around the around the 1300 game mark. And I also consider Hull's only 40 goals (roughly) ahead of Bossy's NHL totals and played more than 300 addition NHL games.

I'm just a little curious.
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Guest8332
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Posted - 02/02/2009 :  11:45:36  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Willus my man, just a couple of quick questions.

Is Hull your man because of the length of time he was so good (statistically speaking) or based on his ability?

Talking purely statistically, Bossy is pretty sick. Bossy had 9-50 goal seasons. Only Gretzky can match that. However, Bossy's 9 were consecutive. No one had done that before or has done that since. Bossy still has the highest career Goals per game average (0.762) and the 2nd highest playoff goals per game behind Lemieux (Mario was 0.710 while Bossy was 0.659).


If I remember correctly, I think Willus is pointing to total goal scored by Hull based on the the total goals scored in the league (or the team).

Note all the numbers in here is not correct but used for demonstration purposes only. Llet's say Hull scored 40 goals in a year. But the league as a whole only scored 1000 goals. Therefore Hull contributed 4% to the total that year. So bringing the 4% to the high scoring 80s era, that would translate to 200 goals in a season.

Of course Willus will correct me if I what I remember is wrong.

I don't know enough about the 60s but Bossy in the 80s was pretty sick. He had such a quick release and it was ridiculously accurate.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  12:54:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I though this theory was interesting so I tested it out. Consider that Hull's highest season in goals was 58 in the 68-69 season. The entire league scored 2718 goals, meaning Hull produced 2.1% of all the goals. That season, the next highest scorer was Esposito with 49. So Hull outscored the next closest by 9 goals, or he was 118% of the 2nd place goal scorer.

Bossy's highest producing season was 78-79 where he had 69 goals and the total league scored 4757. Meaning Bossy produced 1.4% of the goals. That season, the next closest guy was Dionne with 59, 10 goals or 117% of the next guy.

So, in regards to this crazy math, Bossy in 1968 would have scored 38 goals (1.4% of the total) and Hull in 78 would have scored 100 goals (2.1% of the total). If you look at domination over the field(how much more they scored compared to the 2nd place guy) they are virtually identical.

That is a very unique was of looking at it. Although not really wrong, I prefer to look at each players Goals per game and adjust the % based on comparing league scoring during the time.

Using their best producing seasons as a comparison.
1968-69 - 12 teams playing 76 games is 912 total games. Total goals were 2718 (this has to be doubled as goals for is the same as goals against for the league) so the goals per game is 5.96 in 68.

In 1978-79 - 17 teams playing 80 games is 1360 games. Total goals 4757 (doubled) so the goals per game were 6.99.

The percentage difference between the two years is 15%.

Hull's best of 58 goals in 76 games is .763 goals per game. 80 games in the 1978 season means 61goales increased by 15% = 70 goals

Bossy's best of 69 goals in 80 games is .862 goals per game. 76 games in 68-69 is 65 goals reduced by 15% = 56 goals.


That way, it is virtually identical what each other would have done in the other's era.

However, I know this is not a science and it is all specualation. There are a ton of other factors that influenced the game.

I just have a soft spot for the player without the physical gifts. Hull was a speedster and had possibly the wickedest shot in the history of the game. Bossy didn't have those gifts.

Interested to hear Willus chime in. I never watched Hull play much so I might be completely out to lunch!
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  15:56:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With having all statistics thrown around already I don't think any stat i could add would change anything. I also believe that stats don't always tell the whole story even if most players will always be measured by their career stats. I terms of pure goal scoring my two scents is with Mike Bossy. I can't recall in my time someone who seemed to be able to score what seemed like every shift he played.
We may have to break into different eras of the game to come up with good answers to this question. Certainly Rocket Richard was the most prolific scorer in his time (please don't make me post stats, we all know what the Rocket did). Hull certainly was considered the best scorer when he played. Bossy as mentioned. And then I would lean to Pavel Bure in recent times. Surely Ovechkin might be talked about in this group in the future but let's let that play itself out. My money is on Bossy as the winner of this category by nose or a shinpad, something like that.
I don't actually think I would include Gretzky here, sure he has the most goals, heck he has the most everything, but pure goal scoring talent was not really what I would say gretzky was about as much as it was his ability to view the play. Funny thing, he was never a great skater, not consider to have the best hands but he still put up amazing numbers that may never be touched. Yet I don't think anyone has ever considered him a pure goal scorer.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  18:37:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bossy played in the highest scoring era. There was one season in the 80's that touched 8 goals per game I believe. Counting his career goals has to be tempered with that knowledge. Now I'm not saying Bossy wasn't a terrific goal scorer. He was. But Hull dominated the goal scoring by a larger percentage every year than anyone else. In fact Bossy only won the goal scoring race twice.

In 61-62 Hull scored 50 goals. The next closest players were Provost, Howe and Mahovlich who all had 33.
In 65-66 Hull scored 54. The next closest was Mahovlich with 32.
etc...



"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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Guest0734
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Posted - 02/02/2009 :  19:17:10  Reply with Quote
Bure by far. No ones close
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