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deleted
4809 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2009 : 06:33:04
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Poll Question:
Which of the top three players will win - will it be Malkin holding on, will it be the surging Ovechkin (2 points back as of today), or will it be Crosby (9 points back) with some big point totals in the final few games?
Give me your comments on whether you think winning the Art Ross will have a bearing on who gets the MVP this year as well.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 06:45:39
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The contest will be between Ovechkin and Malkin for both the Art Ross and Hart Trophies.
If Malkin wins Art Ross, than he's got a little sliver of hope for winning the Hart. But remember, it won't be that huge margin of ten points he was riding on in February. It will be one or two. I still think Ovechkin wins it in this case.
If Ovechkin wins the Art Ross, I don't think Malkin is even in the contest anymore. Ovechkin will have more goals, more points on a better team, with less help... ya, no contest. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 07:17:18
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| Less help? Excuse me? |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 07:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MSC
Less help? Excuse me?
Not in terms of producing points, I mean the team around him just is not as good as Pittsburgh. Take a look:
Goalie: Fleury vs. Theodore. Advantage: Pittsburgh by a mile.
Top four defense: Gonchar, Eaton, Orpik, Letang vs. Green, Poti, Morrison, Erskine. Advantage: Pittsburgh by a mile.
Top three forwards (not including them): Crosby, Kunitz, Guerrin vs. Backstrom, Kozlov, Semin. Advantage: Washington.
Even though Pittsburgh's team has a MUCH better roster, Washington is ahead in the standings by quite a bit, and the reason is Ovechkin is shouldering most of the load on that team. There's no denying it. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 08:23:20
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Pitts point leaders...
Evgeni Malkin C 79 34 74 108
Sidney Crosby C 74 30 69 99
Petr Sykora RW 73 24 21 45
Jordan Staal C 79 22 22 44
Miroslav Satan RW 65 17 19 36
Ruslan Fedotenko LW 62 14 21 35
Tyler Kennedy C 64 14 18 32
Kris Letang D 71 9 22 31
Matt Cooke LW 73 11 18 29
Pascal Dupuis LW 68 11 15 26
Max Talbot C 73 11 10 21
Alex Goligoski D 45 6 14 20
Brooks Orpik D 76 2 17 19 6
Sergei Gonchar D 22 6 11 17
Chris Kunitz LW 17 7 9 16
Rob Scuderi D 78 1 14 15
Ryan Whitney D 28 2 11 13
Bill Guerin RW 14 4 7 11
Hal Gill D 60 2 8 10 12
Mark Eaton D 66 4 5 9
Mike Zigomanis C 22 2 4 6
Philippe Boucher D 23 2 2 4
Eric Godard RW 68 2 1 3
That's a pretty steep drop off from Crosbys 99 to Sykora's 45. I don't see how you can include Gonchar in this years top four Pens D man when he played 1/4 of the year. Goligoski would be taking his place, this makes their top 4 dmen alot more comparable.
Was points leaders...
Alexander Ovechkin LW 76 55 51 106
Nicklas Backstrom C 79 22 61 83
Alexander Semin RW 59 31 44 75
Mike Green D 65 30 40 70 24 64
Brooks Laich C 79 20 30 50
Viktor Kozlov C 64 12 27 39
Tomas Fleischmann RW 70 18 17 35
Michael Nylander C 69 9 23 32
Sergei Fedorov C 49 10 21 31
Eric Fehr RW 58 12 13 25
Dave Steckel C 73 7 11 18
Boyd Gordon C 63 5 9 14
Milan Jurcina D 76 3 11 14
Tom Poti D 52 3 10 13
Shaone Morrisonn D 69 3 10 13
Jeff Schultz D 61 1 10 11
Matt Bradley RW 78 5 5 10
Chris Clark RW 32 1 5 6
Karl Alzner D 30 1 4 5
Keith Aucoin C 9 2 3 5
I see far more scoring balance on the washington squad. Not to mention the fact that Ovechkin has an elite passer feeding him the puck somthing that can't be said about Malkin or Crosby.
Washington has 5 twenty goal scorers to Pitts 4.
I just don't see how you can say that Pitts has a much better roster when this just isn't the case. Washington has the best scorer and top scoring dman (by a mile as you like to say) and a player in Semin who if avoided injury was on pace to walk away with the scoring title.
The only player on a successful team this year who was head and shoulders above the rest of his team was Zach Parise. Although he won't win the Art Ross he had an absolute mediocore supporting cast and still carried them on his shoulders to an elite record (WITHOUT BRODUER). Parise was this years Hart winner.
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 08:27:43
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Gotta agree with you, Alex - I think Ovechkin basically has the Hart already, and winning the Art Ross would eliminate all competition.
The "less help" comment is debateable, but IMHO it's a wash. I know that looking at the actual points this year, after Malkin and Crosby it drops way down to 45, and that on the Caps with Backstrom, Semin and Green all having career years, it looks like a much deeper team . . . but with two of the three top players in the league (one is always helped by the other - power play, occasional linemates) and with the aging talent of Sykora, new linemates Guerin and Kunitz, and Gonchar (now back from injury), it's darn close.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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shazariahl
Top Prospect
50 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 08:35:45
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I doubt Malkin will win, but perhaps he should. Not only does he have more points than Ovechkin, but his +/- is much better (course, I don't really put much weight behind that stat), and Ovechkin actually leads the league in giveaways, while Malkin is much better defensively. However, whether correct or not, the perception is that Malkin has more help and Ovechkin is doing it alone. That isn't really the case anymore - Washington is building a strong team. But that perception is still there, and that will probably be enough. Besides, Malkin will have the Art Ross, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 18:54:52
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I'm homing it will be Malkin, and I believe he has the skill to do so.
Irvine |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 21:59:39
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| Malkin does not deserve it.. Gonchar is the rock that keeps that team together, look at the record with him in the lineup and him not in the lineup. Also look at Parise .. slim I know but with Brodeur being out most of the season he stepped up his game HUGE and is 2nd in the league with 44 goals, his +29 rating is higher then most top 10 forwards except Datsyuk. The Hart trophy shouldn't just be the forward with the most points every year. Ovie is my pick, with Parise and Chara right there. Kiprusoff definitely right around there too. Think about taking him getting injured in Calgary? Ugly scene I don't care what anyone says. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2009 : 05:38:22
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I agree, Axey - Malkin certainly doesn't deserve it. Funny enough, I have been totally turned off by him in his best season . . . no doubting he has fantastic skill, but his effort is spotty, and for some reason he has played some of his worst games against the Leafs, when I have been watching. Floating, terrible giveaways in the defensive zone . . . just not impressive. And he should be!
I also agree with others here that if the Hart trophy were truly awarded to who is most VALUABLE to their team, that players like Datsyuk, Parise and Nash would be right up there with Ovechkin, nevermind the goalies - Luongo, Steve Mason, Thomas, and Vokoun if Florida gets in. But, everyone knows it's weighted heavily towards the player with the most points, so it appears that Ovechkin will walk away with it. But you never know, maybe someone else besides the top three point getters will at least get a nod by way of nomination.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 05:04:21
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| I say Ovechkin |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2009 : 08:01:01
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I just wanted to touch on a comment by MSC.
The only player on a successful team this year who was head and shoulders above the rest of his team was Zach Parise. Although he won't win the Art Ross he had an absolute mediocore supporting cast and still carried them on his shoulders to an elite record (WITHOUT BRODUER). Parise was this years Hart winner.
All I can say is Wow. I am thinking the likes of Elias, Gionta, Rolston, Langenbrunner, and Zajac(among others) would take a little offence to the above statement.
Here is the list, by team, for goals assists and points by forwards. It is interesting the Pitt is on top, 1st in goals, assists, and point, and ahead by a lot. But to say that New Jersey, the 7th highest group of scoring forwards in the league(top 10 in goals assists and points), have an "absolute mediocore supporting cast," is completely off base.
Team G A Pts
PIT 253 377 630
BOS 226 347 573
DET 242 328 570
WAS 219 333 552
CGY 229 309 538
NJD 216 314 530
CHI 220 293 513
SAN 211 297 508
BUF 213 292 505
DAL 214 288 502
CAR 209 291 500
VAN 207 291 498
COB 206 290 496
PHI 226 266 492
STL 208 277 485
ATL 204 278 482
MON 201 262 463
EDM 188 274 462
FLA 177 266 443
PHO 178 261 439
NYR 180 249 429
OTT 175 245 420
TOR 165 254 419
MIN 164 241 405
COL 162 242 404
ANA 161 241 402
NAS 157 236 393
TAM 170 213 383
LOS 161 214 375
NYI 136 204 340
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Guest0433
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Posted - 04/11/2009 : 00:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
Kiprusoff definitely right around there too. Think about taking him gtting injured in Calgary? Ugly scene I don't care what anyone says.
Kipper is pretty bad they prob do better ever see his stats BESIDES WINS 33rd in SV% 34th in GAA too me kippersoft is only as good as his defence makes him out to be. To me you switch him and toskala and there would be no difference at all in team standings maybe better for calgary but theres thats always a what if rightttttt |
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Guest0966
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Posted - 04/11/2009 : 09:52:16
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| In terms of the Malkin and Ovechkin debate and who should win both Art Ross and Heart... it's a no brainer, (Malkin-112 pts +17) (Ovechkin-108 pts +3). Who cares about the team, MALKIN is a better player!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 09:52:23
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I personnaly Don't see Ovetchkin Malkin as MVP candadites,, sure they are offensive powerhouses but they are not complete, for me when i think of an MVP i think of a guy who is everything to his team. the guy in every situation you want him on the ice, Ovetchkin is not that guy neither is malkin, guys like this are not a dime a dozen not every team even have this kind of guy, Tim Thomas is this kind of guy night in night out he stands on his had and is a the rock behind the boston bruins,,, and this is coming from a habs fan Steve Mason to name another goalie,,Rick Nash is evreything to the CBJ and im not saying you have to find guys with no help, every player has help some better than others but no superstar is completely alone on the ice,,, my vote for the mvp is Pavel Datsyuk
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 10:45:44
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Pasty - you personally don't see Ovechkin as an MVP candidate?!? How not?
I would love to have you explain in detail, really. Best goal-scorer in the entire world by far; one of the top hitting players in the world; a fantastic playmaker in his own right when he wants to be; and he never takes a shift off.
What would make him more complete, like Datsyuk . . . he'd have to concentrate more on defence and score 20 less goals and basically stop body-checking?!?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 15:57:41
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| He'd have to focus on his defense, stop turning the puck over in the neutral zone, involve his teamates more, stop taking shots just for the sake of taking a shot. For starters.... |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 16:30:50
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MSC - Why would the most talented and prolific scorer in the league need to focus on his defence?
And he never takes a shot just for the sake of taking a shot . . . he takes shots to generate chances and to score goals. His teammates are already pretty involved - he has over 50 assists, and his linemates have inflated totals.
And neutral zone turnovers? You mean like the ones where he steals the puck from someone, tries to get around another guy, but then loses it? You are looking at the turnover stats too much . . . doesn't tell the whole story.
So who are your MVP candidates, MSC?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 16:49:42
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Pasty - you personally don't see Ovechkin as an MVP candidate?!? How not?
I would love to have you explain in detail, really. Best goal-scorer in the entire world by far; one of the top hitting players in the world; a fantastic playmaker in his own right when he wants to be; and he never takes a shift off.
What would make him more complete, like Datsyuk . . . he'd have to concentrate more on defence and score 20 less goals and basically stop body-checking?!?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
it's harder to explain yess he is the best goal scorer in the world and maybe the best offensive power house but we have two awards for that the art ross and the maurice richard trophy to me an mvp to make a paralell to another sport is like the mlb's last yeat Mvp Dustin Pedroia,, batted .357 had 83 rbi's and 20 some home runs,,,, the ovetkin of baseball for those of you who dont follow would have batteed like .280 with 50 homers and 150 rbi's, the the mlb decided the driving force behind the whole red soxs team was this little 5ft 8 seconde baseman who scouts said may not be good enough to play in the mlb. now i do retract my statement that he is not a candidate you're right he is but i dont see him as the everything to his team, i would even venture to say replace him with a 75 point guy and the caps still make the playoffs this year,,, now tke Rick Nash away from the CBJ they would not have had there first ever playoff birth, ovetking makes glaring mistakes and huge turn overs more than anyone in the league and you re right i would never ask him to stop doing that and score less,,, i would tell ovie do what you do but im gving the hart to the guy who doesn;t make those mistake and concentrates and the whole game Mike Richards comes to mind Datsyuk and a few others
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 21:00:22
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Ok, fair enough, I suppose. As I stated earlier, I agree that there are other very well-deserving candidates like you mention, and they won't be considered. Nash is definitely one of them . . . but so is Mason, the goalie on his team. Malkin has Crosby, Ovechkin has Semin and Backstrom, Parise has Brodeur and Elias, Datsyuk has Hossa and Zetterberg and Rafalski, Luongo has the Sedins, Iginla has Cammaleri, etc etc.
No man is an island, in hockey as in real life. It's a team sport, and most of the time, everyone has their role. The question is, whose role is the biggest reason for the team's success? The question isn't whether without OV they would make the playoffs or not - it's how many less points the team would achieve the next year. And even then, there's a hundred intangible elements to alter the outcome . . .
Which is why, I can totally understand the judges going mostly on point performance and adding some thought to defensive and physical play, leadership, and clutch performance. Much simpler.
I think Ovechkin will win MVP in a walk.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2009 : 22:16:24
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| I stand by my Parise for MVP train of thought. Followed by Mason then Ovechkin. I'm not totally dismissing Ovechkin but I'm also not about to be so bold as to call anyone in the league a "walk" for mvp. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2009 : 04:05:42
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The Hart trophy itself actually should win an award.
The MOST MISUNDERSTOOD trophy in the history of all sports!
Check out how many defencemen have won it over the years.
The reason often given is that there is a best defenceman award, and that may well be the case, but that's really silly when you think about it because they don't always apply that reasoning. I mean Orr won a number of them. Pronger won one. So what is the NHL saying? Unless you are one of the greatest players ever or you happen to hit a year where a forward didn't have an incredibly offensive year, if you are a defenceman you are out of the running?
I know this is way off topic, so I will finish by saying that I think Malkin will win the Art Ross
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2009 : 12:08:20
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Very well said Andyhack, as usually. For at least the past 30 years, the NHL "pundit" feels that scoring = greatness. Check this out.
The Hart Trophy has been awarded 84 times.
-60 times, the Hart Trophy winner was more than a PPG player. Considering the Hart went to a goaltender 7 times, that means 60 out of 77 times (78%) the award goes to an offensive player.
-Since 1950, the Award was give 57 times. 49 times the player was more than a PPG. 4 of those 57 were goalies, so only 4 times out of the last 57 Harts was a player less than a PPG.
-Since 1980, only one player (Chris Pronger) won the award as a non-goaltender with less than a PPG.
Also, more often than not the player who wins the Art Ross also wins the Hart. Since 1980 awards were given, the Hart winner was also the Art Ross winner 60% of the time.
And above all of this, the actual definition of the award is "the player adjudged most valuable to his team." And by that definition, I can't see how Luogno does not win this award by a landslide. Simply put, Vancouver was 12-14-3 in games Luongo didn't play and 33-13-7 in games he did play. Without Luongo, Vancouver's an under .500 team(.414) and out of the playoffs and with Lungo they are over .500 (.622) and a division winner.
To me, this year is a perfect example of how much a single player means to their team. With the injury Luongo had, it easily shows that he is the most important player to his team and he deserves the Hart.
It's clear today that Ovechkin did not catch Malkin and he won the AArt Ross, and maybe this post doesn't belong on this thread, but I tthought it relevant to post. |
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Who Will Win the Art Ross? 
