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Guest4004
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 Posted - 04/23/2009 : 17:05:15
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Poll Question:
Who will win The Norris Trophy for best defenseman in the 08/09 season?
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 05:10:46
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With 3 guys this good, it will come down to who takes their team further into the playoffs.
"Everytime you step out onto the ice, it's a clean slate, anyone can win" |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 07:11:22
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Sorry Rambo - but that is never the way the voting goes. Always voted on regular season performance, period.
Green gets it, but it'll be close.
I'd have had Wideman as my third choice, not Lidstrom.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 07:17:06
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I think Chara might be the sleeper and get it. He had a solid year for the best team in hockey. As much as we would want it to be based solely on points, it's also judged by the players impact on their team. Hence why Wideman is a solid choice slozo.
"Everytime you step out onto the ice, it's a clean slate, anyone can win" |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 07:55:00
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I'm thinking it might another Lidstrom Norris. I know that seems to be the unpopular pick for various reasons, but anytime I watch a Detroit game, even into the playoffs, the bulk of the talk regarding Lidstrom continues to be about how good he is.
I think Mike Green's breakout year is impressive as well, but I think Lidstrom still gets the nod, his all around game is still the best in the league, albeit without the flash and highlight reel plays.
If you watch just how smart he plays, positionally, and with anticipation, you get lulled into thinking he's not doing much out there, but in reality, he is as solid a defenseman as there is in the league right now, and has been doing it consistently for years. Chara and Green are both deserving, but I'll say Lidstrom. |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 04/24/2009 : 09:13:44
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I'm thinking that Wideman's year will actually work against Chara. As his stats were comparable and in some cases better than Chara's. Chara is a totally deserving candidate but his stats may not have been quite good enough for the voters. Hopefully they look at all the intangibles too.
If Green played all 82 games and held his pace and got 37 goals and 88 points I think it would be a hands down Norris spanking, but since he didn't I think it's a green/lidstrom toss up.
Hard to overlook 31 goals from a dman though... |
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 11:09:48
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Rambo - I think the voting is done before the playoffs, specifically so a good playoff run by a candidate doesn't affect the voting. These awards are all about the regular season.
Does anyone know that for sure though? And who gets to vote? I think it's sports writers, but I'm not sure who qualifies... |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 11:50:36
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I agree with Wideman cancelling out or diminishing Chara's impact . . . which is why Lidstrom shouldn't get it either: Rafalski.
Rafalski also had an awesome year, tying Lidstrom for points with less goals and more assists. His +/- was 13 lower than Lidstrom's, but really, he's in the same class. Very quietly, Kronwall had a huge breakout season as well, with 51 points - that'd be tops for defencemen on all but 8 teams this year.
It might be a bit unfair to have your stats "cancelled out" like that, but then again, it's also unfair that a guy like Streit won't be in the running, despite having an incredible season on the absolute worst team. For me, he deserves some kind of trophy for what he did there . . . I mean, how many defencemen in the past have been on the worst team in the league, yet managed top 5 in goals, top 7 in points, and somehow managed a +/- of +6 on a team that had a league-worst -78 goal differential?!? That +/- alone, especially for your top defenceman logging top minutes, is statistically minboggling.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest0929
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Posted - 04/24/2009 : 16:48:57
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| Totally agree on Streit, unfortunately no team success = no trophies. I think I wrote a lot of those exact stats in the other thread about the top 10 defenceman of 2008-09. I put him 4th I think. It's incredible he had virtually the same stats as Boyle on the worst team in the league and lead his team in scoring vs Boyle playing on the best team in the regular season. |
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Guest9244
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Posted - 04/24/2009 : 19:27:02
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If this goes to green.... this trophy is a joke.... but then again every year every trophy seems to go to one sided players who can only cash in points.
Award should go to players who means the most to thr team. I CAN tell you one thing... chara an lindstrom means much more to thr team than green. Green is a offensiv player with above avg. skill on the blue line. I Mean he stays o every powerplay for almost the full 2 minute with ovechkin backstrom semin and fedorov.... your gonna get point if you have a good shots regardless.
I even think markov or streit deserve the trophy more than green
MARKOV 64 points.
Green 73 points.
If green goes out of the lineup the capitals are still an elite team. Put markov out of the lineup and........ WELL YOU ALL SAW WHAT HAPPEN. Its logic he means more to the teams.
I hope tyhe trophy goes the Chara. Yes im a habs fan and i dislike the bruins but the fact of the matter is put chara out of that lineup and the bruins would not be an elite team. his preserve with his shot is not only excellent but a beast in his own end.
But then again these trophy are useless and Green will probably get it for his one sided play.
Its just like the MVP award. Malkin will prolly get it but ... he is the worst player in the league in his own end. how many games have i watched the pens when the other teams scores cause he gav the puck away while making a move that failed. Yes the guy is godly good.... but until he deserve such honors he should never win this award but again these trophys are rigged and its all about the offense.
I vote chara iginla or paise for MVP. Simply because they are the best players for there teams and the reason thr team played an elite level every game.
thanks for reading. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2009 : 19:47:18
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quote:
Originally posted by just1n
Rambo - I think the voting is done before the playoffs, specifically so a good playoff run by a candidate doesn't affect the voting. These awards are all about the regular season.
Does anyone know that for sure though? And who gets to vote? I think it's sports writers, but I'm not sure who qualifies...
You are correct. It is voted on between the end of the regular season and beginning of the playoffs. The winner has already been chosen.
"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan |
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Guest4004
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Posted - 04/25/2009 : 08:51:06
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| Green Should win hands down. When you score 31 goals in a season and missed 12 games as a d-man. |
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Jephman
Top Prospect
Canada
52 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2009 : 23:59:50
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I think it'll go to Chara. He's a monster and he lead his team to number 1 in the East.
I'm not worried about Green, he will have plenty more chances of scooping up the Norris in the coming years. |
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Guest9157
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Posted - 04/26/2009 : 04:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9244
If this goes to green.... this trophy is a joke.... but then again every year every trophy seems to go to one sided players who can only cash in points.
Award should go to players who means the most to thr team. I CAN tell you one thing... chara an lindstrom means much more to thr team than green. Green is a offensiv player with above avg. skill on the blue line. I Mean he stays o every powerplay for almost the full 2 minute with ovechkin backstrom semin and fedorov.... your gonna get point if you have a good shots regardless.
I even think markov or streit deserve the trophy more than green
MARKOV 64 points.
Green 73 points.
If green goes out of the lineup the capitals are still an elite team. Put markov out of the lineup and........ WELL YOU ALL SAW WHAT HAPPEN. Its logic he means more to the teams.
I hope tyhe trophy goes the Chara. Yes im a habs fan and i dislike the bruins but the fact of the matter is put chara out of that lineup and the bruins would not be an elite team. his preserve with his shot is not only excellent but a beast in his own end.
But then again these trophy are useless and Green will probably get it for his one sided play.
Its just like the MVP award. Malkin will prolly get it but ... he is the worst player in the league in his own end. how many games have i watched the pens when the other teams scores cause he gav the puck away while making a move that failed. Yes the guy is godly good.... but until he deserve such honors he should never win this award but again these trophys are rigged and its all about the offense.
I vote chara iginla or paise for MVP. Simply because they are the best players for there teams and the reason thr team played an elite level every game.
thanks for reading.
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TheReedReview
Top Prospect
Canada
2 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 06:18:01
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Mike Green. Easy. The trophy is for best defense all around and that's what Green was.
Not only did he post a 73pt season but he was also +24, bested only by Lidstrom out of the three with +31.
Crosby is not the reincarnation of Jesus, settle down McGuire |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 08:42:15
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Did no one look at the stats for Wideman this year? Rafalski? Am I just seeing opinions not based on research but on 'belief'?
Boston without Chara wouldn't be as good, no - but they would've held their ranking as #1 in the east, I'll wager. Detroit wouldn't have moved without Lidstrom either, I don't think I need to get into how deep that team is. Let's look at their top defencemen, hmm?
Chara - 19g, 31a, 50pts, +23
Wideman - 13g, 37a, 50pts, +32
Hunwick - 6g, 21a, 27pts, +15
Stuart - 5g, 12a, 17pts, +20
Ference - 1g, 15a, 16pts, +7
I know, I know . . . Chara is a huge physical presence, and big in the corners and all that - not denying that, he is a monster. But there isn't a big drop-off in points, in fact, there is no drop-off because of Wideman's breakout year.
Lidstrom - 16g, 43a, 59pts, +31
Rafalski - 10g, 49a, 59pts, +17
Kronwall - 6g, 45a, 51pts, +2
Lebda - 6g, 10a, 16pts, +9
Stuart - 2g, 13a, 15pts, -3
So, same situation really - you have another defencman with the same amount of points, similar stats but probably a step below in terms of impact (although I would argue that Rafalski is very, very close to Lidstrom).
But Green without Washington?!? They would have been hurt pretty badly, I think, and been relegated to a middle of the pack team. He's a huge part of their offense, power play, and transition game, and is the only defenceman who is an offensive threat, nevermind that he is the best in that regard league-wide. Let's look at the stats for Washington D, shall we?
Green - 31g, 42a, 73pts, +24
Jurcina - 3g, 11a, 14pts, +1
Poti - 3g, 10a, 13pts, +3
Morrisonn - 3g, 10a, 13pts, +4
Schultz - 1g, 11a, 12pts, +13
Not only is there an enormous drop-off, but it looks like the Grand Canyon!!! And with the amount of power play time he gets, to still have a +24 is quite an achievement for a player that everyone here seems to think is so "one dimensional".
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9244
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Posted - 04/27/2009 : 12:27:29
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You forgot to mention the fact that chara makes ward and wideman better .... Lindstrom makes rafalski better....!!!
Tell me who green makes better on the d for washington... NO ONE that why no one of there d is close to him |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 13:10:22
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I am not sure who Green's partner was for most of the year, but I will tell you right now that a healthy Tom Poti is an excellent defenseman. He is highly under rated.
Another interesting thing to see is that of the three defensemen for the Norris this year, only one was not their teams go-to penalty killer, and that was Mike Green. Take nothing away from his offensive abilities, but he is not in the same league defensively as either Chara or Lidstrom. It's the best overall defenseman, not the highest scoring defensemen.And speaking offensively, no one is giving any credit to the superstar forwards that helps Green's offensive production. Green definately had a benefit from Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Semin.
The final piece against Green is that his +/-, albeit good, does not compare to Lidstrom. Surprisingly, Detroit gave up 244 goals against in the regular season and Washington gave up 245. A difference of one goal against as a team so comparing the +/- between the players is quite reasonable. Lidstrom had fewer points and a better +/-.
That's enough for me to give it to Lidstrom. Chara is third as I agree with some others on here that say his success was based on a better overall defensive team(lowest Goals Against in the league) as well as Wideman's break out. Lidstrom produces the same numbers year after year regardless of who his partner is.
Lidstrom wins again. However, the best defensemen this year was not nominated. His name is Mark Streit. He did as much if not more than any other defenseman this year on the worst team in the league. I know the NHL has a tendancy to not give personal awards to players from non-successful teams, but in my books Streit was the best of the best this season. Streit was the only Islander defensemen who played more than 25 games with a + rating. The next closest defenseman on that team with more than 25 games was 15 behind at -9.
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 14:42:17
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Beans please remember that +/- is to be looked at as a subjective stat, not a definite evaluation of how that player has played. I doubt you have watched Islanders games (no offense, but noone really has) and I can definitely tell you Mark Streit was not the best defenseman.
I'd also have to disagree with your Lidstrom reasoning. Green posted the second highest point total by a defenseman post-lockout. But there are more reasons why Green WILL be the Norris Trophy Winner. His time on ice per game is 25:45, good for seventh best in the league. His +/- 24 is sixth best in the league, and although Lidtrom is third I figured being in the top ten is still good. But I won't put much of my basis on +/-.
But there are a few things that make Green a lock for his first Norris. We all know he led the league in points for defenseman, but he managed to get his 73 points in only 68 games! His league best 18 powerplay goals are a statement to how good he has been in arguably the most important facet of the modern game.
In fact, Green has accounted for 10% of Washington's total offense. This is huge when you consider the two other candidates, Lidstrom and Chara, have accounted for about 7% and 6% respectively. Green's offensive prowess this year is too great to ignore, and he simply won't be beat this year. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 14:52:56
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
Beans please remember that +/- is to be looked at as a subjective stat, not a definite evaluation of how that player has played. I doubt you have watched Islanders games (no offense, but noone really has) and I can definitely tell you Mark Streit was not the best defenseman.
I'd also have to disagree with your Lidstrom reasoning. Green posted the second highest point total by a defenseman post-lockout. But there are more reasons why Green WILL be the Norris Trophy Winner. His time on ice per game is 25:45, good for seventh best in the league. His +/- 24 is sixth best in the league, and although Lidtrom is third I figured being in the top ten is still good. But I won't put much of my basis on +/-.
But there are a few things that make Green a lock for his first Norris. We all know he led the league in points for defenseman, but he managed to get his 73 points in only 68 games! His league best 18 powerplay goals are a statement to how good he has been in arguably the most important facet of the modern game.
In fact, Green has accounted for 10% of Washington's total offense. This is huge when you consider the two other candidates, Lidstrom and Chara, have accounted for about 7% and 6% respectively. Green's offensive prowess this year is too great to ignore, and he simply won't be beat this year.
Ok, couple of things. Firstly, when the Islanders were on TV in my neck of the woods, I did watch them. And I do think that Streit is a hell of a defensemen.
Secondly, you are correct with +/-, and I agree it is subjective. But when you are talking about two teams who played 82 games each and allowed virtually the same goals against (1 goal difference) than I do believe that you can compare +/-. It's not the whole story, but it is telling when comparing +24 with 73 points and +31 with 59 points. Lidstrom wins.
Third, and very quickly, if Green is such a great DEFENCEman (defense the key word) why is he not his team's go to penalty killer???
Two sides of the puck should be needed to win this award. Green is definately the best offensively this year. But he does not match up defensively against either Chara or Lidstrom.
Above all of this, do anyone think for one second that the NHL will not give Nicky Norris his 7th Trophy. Only Bobby Orr would have more and he would tie Doug Harvey.
Green will have time to win more. This one is Lidstrom's again. |
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Guest9244
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Posted - 04/29/2009 : 19:44:44
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Im just gonna say one more thing.... and i might be wrong but its my opinion and i believe most people will agree with me.
Switch team teams. Put Green on the boston team and chara on the washington team... TEll me What u think will be the tradeoff. Seriously, Boston would not be the same team at all and would not be the elite team in the east i think. Chara makes that team what they are. Now Put chara on washington and WOW i bet u chara could probably get 80+ points playing on the powerplay and washington would probably be at boston levels. U can say the same about lidstrom.
That why i say Green is overated because he is a point machine that dont make his other players on the team THAT much better, he dont play on the PK CAUSE HE NOT RELIABLE DEFENS., AND Washington is in thr prime with alot of young prospect that they will lose one or two in the near future due to caps reason. Put chara on tha team and washington would be a cup contender.... SO WHY does green deserve it more tha chara? I dont even understand why ppl are still arguying about it .... but like i said before these awards are jokes. |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 04/30/2009 : 06:17:39
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This kind of goes back to the old argument that the league should make a new award, the Bobby Orr trophy, for top offensive defenseman, like the Selke for forwards.
That being said, each candidate has great credentials, and it was probably a very tough choice. But the argument that Green going to Boston or Detroit and getting less points doesn't exactly hold up. Detroit and Boston were definately not offensively challenged, in fact they were no.1 and 2 respectively, Washington being no.3. Green could easily put up the same points on those other teams. On Detroit or Boston his +/- could even be higher due to the better team defence, not to mention Boston had a Vezina caliber goalie. In terms of pure defensive play, it's subjective, but Beans makes a good point in the go-to pk guys, which could be the catalyst for votes for Chara and Liddy...
I'd put my money on Green though, because it's the media voting (right?) and they probably love the 31 goals and the fresh face. |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 12:11:58
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| I don't like Green without the puck. Lidstrom was really good this year and had a good season for him but not a "great" season as was the case in the past. I beleive Chara was the rock that held the Bruins together throughout the season. He even made Thomas look like a great goalie? This guy is the best all round defenceman in the league in my opinion, tough as nails and outstanding both on defense and offense. Without him I don't like Boston's chances!!! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 12:34:21
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Chara #1
Green #2
Lindstrom #3
Not that I want to pick an arguement with anyone here but drop the stats for a second here. Which player plays the most ice time, pk, pp, hardest shot, most physical, captain of his team. Someone posted Thomas as Vesina candidate why stats for Chara were so high. You gotta play more than 60% of the games to win the Vesina. Wow you guys gotta watch a Bruins game. Not that Im taking away from his offensive game here but this guy is a shut down guy in a different league here.
I like Lindstrom alot. He is ALWAY in my hockey pool. Green very very offensive player. To the person who questioned who's stats Green added to, why dont you ask Ovie, Semin, Fleschman, Backstrom if he adds to there stats.
If i was gonna sign all 3 I would pay more for Chara and play him more than the other 2. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 00:49:14
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I pick Mike Green, reason why is simple:
Niklas Lidstrom 78 GP, 16 G, 43 A, 59 Pts, +31, 30 PIM, 33 PPP, 1 SHP, 4 GWG
Zdeno Chara 80 GP, 19 G, 31 A, 50 Pts, +23, 95 PIM, 28 PPP, 2 SHP, 3 GWG
Mike Green 68 GP, 31 G, 42 A, 73 Pts, +24, 68 PIM, 38 PPP, 1 SHP, 4 GWG
Green was the greatest all-round D-Man in the NHL this season, clearing the net, Great physical play, Setting up Ovechkin, Able to score goals |
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Guest9244
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Posted - 05/04/2009 : 06:11:01
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| clearing the net? are you blind? If he was the best at doing that in the league he would play on the penatly kill and he doesnt even play there. He is horible at clearing the net and in his own end. |
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Bozonator
Top Prospect
57 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 16:49:46
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| I'm a little confused by people saying Green doesn't play the PK, I am watching the Pens vs Caps game right now and I have seen him multiple times already on the PK. I think Green will win it because of his offensive numbers and the little things he does do. And then Chara because of how many minutes he plays. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 17:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Bozonator
I'm a little confused by people saying Green doesn't play the PK, I am watching the Pens vs Caps game right now and I have seen him multiple times already on the PK. I think Green will win it because of his offensive numbers and the little things he does do. And then Chara because of how many minutes he plays.
I don't think I said Green doesn't play on the PK, I said he wasn't his teams #1 PK defenceman. He was 6th on the Caps for average TOI on the PK. Compare to Tom Poti, who played 80 more minutes on the PK and played in 16 less games.
He is simply not his teams best defensive player.
However, looking at both Listrom and Chara, they are not only their teams best defensive player, but also their best offensive defenseman.
The Norris is not an offensive award. However, I would not be surprised if Green wins the award. These days, NHL awards are more about popularity and marketing than it is about who deserve the award the most. |
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08/09 Norris Trophy Winner? 
