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50brent
Top Prospect
Canada
62 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2009 : 11:46:32
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| that wuz me |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 11:58:04
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| man, did gustavsson look good last night against the wings or what. i think toskala will still start the year but man if he has a bad game or two, i dont think wilson would hesitate to put in the monster |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 00:13:36
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yeah sharksfan... It won't be long till Wilson realizes how bad Toskala really is and this year Toskala has no more excuses... The Monster will become the number 1 goalie for Toronto very soon... I have no doubts on that what so ever
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 00:28:44
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Blake - Grabovski - Kessel
Stalberg - Bozak - Hagman
Kulemin - Stajan - Ponikarovski
Orr - Primeau - Mayers
Schenn Komisarek
Kaberle Beauchemin
White Exelby
Starter: Gustavsson
Backup: MacDonald
in time when Wilson and Burke realize how much Toskala really does suck, and how much better The Monster really is, they will be forced to assign Gustavsson number 1 duties and instead of having an over paid $4 Million dollar Toskala as backup duties they will either place him on waivers or buy off his contract.... It's the only smart thing to do for the best for the Leafs...
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 08:19:12
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| talking about toskala and how much he sucks, he only proved it further. last night he allowed 7 goals on 26 shots against the sabres. i no its preseason but man, thats still really bad. the leafs lost 7-6, if i was a coach, id b saying every time my team scores 6 goals in a game, that better b good enough for the win. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 09:00:00
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Toskala looked awful last night.... that definatley has me worried. I really hope he can rebound on thursday. He looked pissed when he got pulled for the extra attacker, he smashed his stick against the boards. Hopefully it was just a really really off night, the D didnt look very good in front of him either.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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fanoleaf
Rookie
143 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 10:15:07
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Defensively the worst game of the preseason for the buds. Granted they have played a lot of games with little rest.
Toskala looked horrible!!! But again he did not get a lot of help. Only time will tell how he will do this season.
Come on Thursday!!!!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 11:10:38
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I didn't watch the game last night, but I have watched a couple of Leaf preseason games. The defense has been week overall. Maybe not some players, but overall team defense has been bad. I have noticed the other team having lots of room through the middle of the ice in the Toronto side of the rink. That's not a good thing!!
Even the games where the Monster has played well, it was because of him only. Sure, the fans might look at that and say that he should start. However, in the long run, if the defense is weak, the goaltender is irrelevant. Eventually they will get scored on!
I know it's preseason and it's not the regular season pairings or even players, but I would have expected more after Burke making the back end the focal point of improvement in the off season.
We'll see! |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 11:54:24
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Does anyone still question their ability to score goals though? The Leafs have been lighting the lamp with regularity in the pre-season, but I agree with beans on the defence. The Team D hasnt been very sharp. Only in spurts.
I havent seen any oilers action yet, how do they look beans? What has Quinn been saying about the club?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 12:45:17
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It looks like everytime the Leafs play the Sabres it's a bad game defensively for the Leafs. They just can't play against this team.
As for the defense with what Burke gave to Wilson, if Wilson fails to improve the defensive end, Wilson would have to get out. And this is a big IF. Because it's just starting and they are still learning to play together.
All in all the team looked really good for the preseason, the youngster and the new guys. It's just against the Sabres that they look bad all the time. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 14:50:25
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I don't know what games you were watching Beans Toronto's D hasn't been any worse than any other team out there... Of Course every team day in and day out the D will make some s***ty decisions in play... Thats a given.. There is no such thing as perfect Defense day in and day out...
over all i'd have to say Toronto's d was pretty solid...
Again I agree with Sharksfan... Toskala is horrible he's been that way ever since he left San Jose... The only reason he looked good while he played for San Jose was because San Jose's team can make any goalie look good, doesn't make him a good goalie... A true good goalie could play for any team in the league even last years New York Islanders, Atlanta Thrashers, Tampa Bay Lightning, Ottawa Senators and Toronto Maple Leafs and play solid consistant great hockey.... Toskala can't do that... And yes any time you score 6 goals you better win...
The Leafs have the players that can put the puck in the net, the Leafs have all around solid D.. but when Toskala is in net they don't have the goaltending... You want to know how to score on Toskala? shhhhhh don't tell anyone, who am I kidding everyone knows... he goes down before the guy make a play to shoot or pass, so anywhere up high, you can also score on him shooting anywhere stick side high or low, and 175 feet away... it's sad, but it's true. I'd feel more comfortable with a plastic Mr. Sieve goalie hooked up to the net...
Play Gustavsson more and lets make the playoffs where you belong boys
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
Edited by - hanley6 on 09/28/2009 15:27:40 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 16:20:58
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Hanley, obviously I have been watching the Leafs play. I often wonder what you are watching myself.
And if you are saying that the Leafs are as bad as the other teams out there, you are just saying the other teams are not that great, not that the Leafs are good. I would agree with you. Again, preseason is a very poor judgement, but I would agree that many teams were playing really poor defensively overall.
But if the preseason is a poor judge of defense, it's also a poor judge of offense.
And finally, there is a very good reason why guys like Brian Burke and Ron Wilson run the Leafs and the fans don't. Gustovsson makes 22 saves and he's the messiah???
I wonder what everyone is going to say the first time he gets rocked. You know it's going to happen, it happens to every goalie. But in TO, that means it's time for a new goalie!
I apologize to all those logical thinking Leafs fans out there. I just can't stand posts like this. I mean, I know I am bias towards the Oilers, but I am also realistic. For some reasons, there are a few Leaf fans on this site that I seriously think are watching a different sport over the rest of us! |
Edited by - Beans15 on 09/28/2009 20:15:57 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 16:25:28
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To answer the question about how the Oilers have been, very interesting to say the least. Much like the Leafs, defense has looked very weak. Goaltending as well. Although Khabibulin played in only about 5 periods the entire preseason. TONS of line up shuffles. The only statics were Horcoff played with Hemsky and Comrie played with O'Sullivan. Both pairs looked good but without consistant linemates, it's hard to tell.
The biggest surprise??? Dustin Penner. 20 lbs ligher, faster, and he looks like he playing with a bit of a chip on his shoulder. We'll see how long it lasts, but it might be a turn around year.
Overall, very poor efforts across the board. Quinn has went on record various times in saying his leaders and experienced guys are lacking in the effort department. To the point where he went on a shouting tirade in practice the other day.
Preseason is always tough, but much like the Leafs, there are many "IF's" in play with the Oilers this year. I sure hope the preseason is not an indications of what will happen in the regular season. |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 16:55:23
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beans, maybe people have taken it to far, but those 22 saves gustavsson made were 22 quality saves. also he only played the final 2 periods of the game against detroit. so that 22 shots in 2 periods not 3. he also did not let in any goals in that game. now ask yourself this, if it was toskala in there, not gustavsson, would the leafs have won that game. i dont think they would have.
and yes every goalie gets rocked. but toskala has gotten rocked many times, and its hard to watch.
also toskala said going into the pre season that he was hurt for a good chunk of time last year and that limited his level of play. then he said he was 100% going into the pre season. well he hasnt looked much better. now with gustavsson pressuring toskala to perform better, he still hasnt played well.
im not one to say that gustavsson should start the year. i would still go with toskala. but i would have him on a very short leash. if toskala plays like he did last year and in this pre season this season, the leafs can kiss their playoff hopes goodbye. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 20:20:52
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Sharkfan, it's a flash in the pan. It takes significantly more than a couple of preseason periods to call a goalie a starter.
Think about this, a couple seasons ago, MA Fleury got injured. Conklin went in a play brilliant hockey. I think he lost 3 of 21 starts and had a GAA of less than 2 and a save percentage of .920. Something like that. It was sick. What happened once Fleury came back?? Conklin went back where he belongs, on the bench.
Toskala is the man. He will prove it. At the very least, if he gets yanked, The Monster will do no better. More than likely worse.
And let's look objectively at this. Seriously, watch the games and tell me how many goals Toskala lets in that are glaring defensive mistakes by his team mates. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 04:59:29
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Beans - if a team like Toronto was playing terrible in preseason (6-3-0) I wonder how good you think Edmonton played (4-3-1OTL) comparably. Or Detroit (3-4-1)? Pittsburgh (1-4-1)?
When teams are comprised of half kids from the AHL, when you are trying out all different sorts of defence combos because you have a surplus, when the solid pairings you do have are rough around the edges because they have never played together . . . you will have many defensive lapses, as evidenced by the high goals against.
But the Leafs also showed that actually, they have some talented players who may be ready to join the big club - Stalberg, Bozak, Hanson, Kadri showed nice flashes, even Rosehill played very solid.
And in the end Beans, playing their two preseason games with a more serious lineup, and against the Wings no less, they won both times. And, against a Red Rings lineup in the first game that had almost all the big guys playing - Datsyuk, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Bertuzzi, Cleary.
I really don't see how a 7-6 "shootout" with Buffalo the last pre-season game is indicative of overall poor play . . . even if it was their probable opening day line-up. 5 games in 6 nights, even with a lot of players to switch around, is damn tiring.
It's all moot soon anyways . . . but for me, pre-season is all about seeing the young talent, not the defensive soundness. I think the Leafs played quite well, but we'll see how it all looks on Thursday and beyond.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 06:31:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And finally, there is a very good reason why guys like Brian Burke and Ron Wilson run the Leafs and the fans don't. Gustovsson makes 22 saves and he's the messiah???
I wonder what everyone is going to say the first time he gets rocked. You know it's going to happen, it happens to every goalie. But in TO, that means it's time for a new goalie!
I was thinking the same thing the other day. Gustavsson looks like he is going to be the real deal, but people in T.O. will lose their minds the first time he gets shelled in a game. Its just like that around here. People are already calling for Toskala to be sent to the minors, its nuts.
I like Toskala, i've always felt he has the tools to be a capable #1 goalie, but he hasnt even finished in the top 30 for save percentage the last few years. Even his so called 'good' year in 07-08 he was 31st in the league. If the Leafs are going to have any shot at the post season they need a goalie who is in the top 18 or so in GAA and SV %.
I think Gustavsson can be that guy. I dont think he is the messiah based on 3 periods of pre season play, I think he can be the messiah based on his numbers in the swedish elite league last year and the fact that almost every pro scout in the world was drooling over this guy. Scouting reports compare him to Henrik Lundqvist and now that he is working with the goalie guru, Francois Allaire, he should become a solid NHL netminder. If Jonas doesn't pan out, the leafs are f***ed IMO.
Beans, I also took a little of your advice and snagged Penner late in my pool. Many laughed until I informed them that he is 20lbs lighter, 1 year wiser and looking good in camp. I think he will bounce back this year, maybe not 30 goals, but his numbers should improve across the board.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 06:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And let's look objectively at this. Seriously, watch the games and tell me how many goals Toskala lets in that are glaring defensive mistakes by his team mates.
Toskala is good for 1.5 soft goals a game, he lets in goals that AHL backups should stop. Did you see that wraparound goal Hecht scored the other night? That was just 1 of at least 3 sofites, he was just terrible. Same with the game against Detroit on Saturday, a weak shot from the half board fluttered right through him, no screen, no nothing. I try to defend him myself, but alot of the time the goals really are just his fault....
By no means am I letting the Leafs poor defensive zone coverage off the hook, but really these are glaring errors by a goalie who is supposed to be better than that. I also just want to add that the leafs do look alot better in their own end so far, when you compare it to the last couple years (that buffalo game aside). Beauchimen looks like a rock, Kaberle looks quicker and more willing to rush the puck again and Komisarek still looks like he has hands of stone and a shoulder to match. The guy is tough down low but when he gets the puck he just leaves it for Kabba (thank god). hab fans were right about that one, he is pretty sketchy with the puck. Kabba will be a perfect partner for him just like Markov was.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 08:25:17
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Not to blend two threads into one, but I am seeing comments that are really interesting. Last season, before Toskala was injured, he was by far the best goalie the Leafs had. Cujo and Pogge were just not even close. Even when Gerber came in, he faired not better. Some people blamed Toskala, others blamed the defense.
Now, the pre-season happens (which by most accounts is not a defensive game to begin with) and this Kid from the Swedish Elite league stops 22 shots. Literally a game's worth of shots, and he is pushing Toskala at #1?? Are you serious??? One wrap around goal and that's it, give him the hook??? 1.5 soft goals a game?? Give me a break. I made a point to watch as many Leaf games as I could last year. Many times fighting off my regular Saturday late afternoon nap to make sure I didn't miss the 1st period of HNIC. I watched, over and over and over, the Leafs defense hang their goalie out to dry. Not just Toskala, all of them.
Give this kid a break. Save percentage, GAA, all that crap from last year throw out the window. He was injured enough to get surgery part way through the year as well. Let's see what he can do with (at least on paper) a sound defense in front of him. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 08:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And finally, there is a very good reason why guys like Brian Burke and Ron Wilson run the Leafs and the fans don't. Gustovsson makes 22 saves and he's the messiah???
I wonder what everyone is going to say the first time he gets rocked. You know it's going to happen, it happens to every goalie. But in TO, that means it's time for a new goalie!
I like Toskala, i've always felt he has the tools to be a capable #1 goalie, but he hasnt even finished in the top 30 for save percentage the last few years. Even his so called 'good' year in 07-08 he was 31st in the league. If the Leafs are going to have any shot at the post season they need a goalie who is in the top 18 or so in GAA and SV %.
Beans, I also took a little of your advice and snagged Penner late in my pool. Many laughed until I informed them that he is 20lbs lighter, 1 year wiser and looking good in camp. I think he will bounce back this year, maybe not 30 goals, but his numbers should improve across the board.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Let's be careful with the rankings. 2 years when Toskala was ranked 31st in the league in save percentage, he was also 10th in the league in wins on a team that missed the playoffs. In fact, he was the had nearly the exact same stats as Cam Ward and Ryan Miller in regards to nearly every stat. Wins, shots, save %, GAA, etc.
One ranking means nothing. Many rankings and stats paint a picture. His numbers were comparable to some of the best in the game. Not just some of his numbers, all of them. No one is arguing if Ward or Miller is a #1 goalie???? |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 10:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Not to blend two threads into one, but I am seeing comments that are really interesting. Last season, before Toskala was injured, he was by far the best goalie the Leafs had. Cujo and Pogge were just not even close. Even when Gerber came in, he faired not better. Some people blamed Toskala, others blamed the defense.
Now, the pre-season happens (which by most accounts is not a defensive game to begin with) and this Kid from the Swedish Elite league stops 22 shots. Literally a game's worth of shots, and he is pushing Toskala at #1?? Are you serious??? One wrap around goal and that's it, give him the hook??? 1.5 soft goals a game?? Give me a break. I made a point to watch as many Leaf games as I could last year. Many times fighting off my regular Saturday late afternoon nap to make sure I didn't miss the 1st period of HNIC. I watched, over and over and over, the Leafs defense hang their goalie out to dry. Not just Toskala, all of them.
Give this kid a break. Save percentage, GAA, all that crap from last year throw out the window. He was injured enough to get surgery part way through the year as well. Let's see what he can do with (at least on paper) a sound defense in front of him.
hang on beans, i never said give him the hook, im just saying that people around toronto are starting to say it already. hes also 32, far from a kid.
I can throw last years stats out the window because he was hurt, im just saying his numbers have been terrible.
Did you see that wraparound goal? It was bush league. The fact that it came before the season opener is the reason some people are feeling a little nervous about him.
When i say 1.5 soft goals a game, im being serious. Ive watched every single game he has played as a leaf and there is usualy a sofite or two that gets by him. Shots from the half boards or the point with no screen or deflection, he just misses it. At the same time, he usually makes 1 or 2 huge saves as well which usually makes you feel like "Thats the Vesa we've been waiting for!"
Im not trying to make things up here just to pile on Vesa, most Leaf observers would agree with that I think.
I agree with you on Gustavsson, 22 shots in the pre season doesnt prove a damn thing, but what Leaf fans are clinging to with Jonas is the fact that he has been super hyped and actually represents a glimmer of hope between the pipes. You cant deny his pedigree and the fact that he pitched a shutout against the red wings, which included a spectacular post to post save on a 2-0. (3 periods over 2 games)
Most are saying that Vesa should start the season, but if he looks like the same vesa from last year, put the monster in and see what he can do.
I dont think this toskala thing should become a big story until(if) he doesnt look very good during the season
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 10:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And finally, there is a very good reason why guys like Brian Burke and Ron Wilson run the Leafs and the fans don't. Gustovsson makes 22 saves and he's the messiah???
I wonder what everyone is going to say the first time he gets rocked. You know it's going to happen, it happens to every goalie. But in TO, that means it's time for a new goalie!
I like Toskala, i've always felt he has the tools to be a capable #1 goalie, but he hasnt even finished in the top 30 for save percentage the last few years. Even his so called 'good' year in 07-08 he was 31st in the league. If the Leafs are going to have any shot at the post season they need a goalie who is in the top 18 or so in GAA and SV %.
Beans, I also took a little of your advice and snagged Penner late in my pool. Many laughed until I informed them that he is 20lbs lighter, 1 year wiser and looking good in camp. I think he will bounce back this year, maybe not 30 goals, but his numbers should improve across the board.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Let's be careful with the rankings. 2 years when Toskala was ranked 31st in the league in save percentage, he was also 10th in the league in wins on a team that missed the playoffs. In fact, he was the had nearly the exact same stats as Cam Ward and Ryan Miller in regards to nearly every stat. Wins, shots, save %, GAA, etc.
One ranking means nothing. Many rankings and stats paint a picture. His numbers were comparable to some of the best in the game. Not just some of his numbers, all of them. No one is arguing if Ward or Miller is a #1 goalie????
No definatley not, but both those clubs missed the playoffs that year didnt they? Not that that means much really... I see where you are coming from beans and i dont disagree. im just am trying to paint a picture as to why many are worried about Toskala and are itching to get Gustavsson in net
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 14:13:04
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I know exactly why the Leafs fans are looking for Gustovsson to get the call and Toskala to get the axe. Same reason the Leaf's fans wanted Cujo out of town. Same reasnon the Leaf's fans wanted Belfour out of town.
The goaltender in TO is the scapegoat. Has been for at least the past 10-15 years. You could have put Lunogo, Broduer, Lundqvist, anything in next last year, the team still misses the playoffs and the goalie is to blame.
Every goalie has bad stretches. Some last longer than others. Some never come out of their bad stretches. The fact that Toskala was a wicked goalie in San Jose and has proven to be able to have a winning record on a non-playoff team speaks volumes to his ability. Anywhere except TO that is.
Gustovsson might be the best goalie who was not in the NHL until today. There is a reason for that! The Swedish elite league is not comparable to the NHL. Heck, I would think that many AHL teams would beat Swedish teams.
I recall another brilliant Swedish player who was highly touted before the season and was predicted to be amazing. He was also one of the best players not playing in the NHL. He was top tier Swedish Elite league as well!
Does anyone know what Fabian Brunnstrom scored last year??? 17 goals and 29 points in 55 games.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 12:09:15
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beans... no one wanted cujo to leave. Belfour had a messed up back and was forced out.... both of those guys were AMAZING as leafs and took us to the playoffs consistantly. You wont find too many people who trash cujo or belfour in toronto.
The goalie is not always the scapegoat in toronto, thats just false. For years people blamed Sundin.... Ever since Felix Potvin captured the imagination of Leaf fans we've always been lucky enough to have great goaltending and its always been a favorite position among fans here. Until 2006. Raycroft wasn't very good on a mediocre team, constantly allowed bad goals at bad times and Toskala has been the victim of injuries and a bad team infront of him. Vesa actually received alot of support here during his first season in Toronto 2 years ago. Many said "Vesa is our best player and if we had a team infront of him he'd take us to the playoffs for sure". Alot of people soured on him last year, but as we would later find out he was playing hurt so he is getting the benefit of the doubt right now.
Im pretty sure Lundqvist was in the same position that Gustavsson is in now. Look how that turned out, the guy went from the Swedish league to an NHL all star. We're hoping the same thing happens.
That being said, I hope Toskala does amazing this year. He is definatley capable of doing it. Having Toskala as a solid #1 with Jonas learning from him as a #2 would be great.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
Edited by - Matt_Roberts85 on 09/30/2009 12:14:10 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 17:54:15
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I hate when I am right.
I am in no way saying that 2 games will tell the tale, however the TO defense has hung Toskala and now Gustovsson out to dry. Seriously it could be a brick wall covering the goal and if the TO defense plays the way they did in Montreal and now in Washington, they will still lose.
At first I felt bad for Toskala. Now I feel bad for the Monster too. How can a goalie win in that town with defense so porous.
I wonder if Burke is still happy after spending $10 million on Komisarek, Beauchemin, and Exelby and having them -5 through 5 periods.
Again, way too soon to tell, but things like this snow ball really quick. That Defense better step up quick or it will be a very long season for the Buds. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 20:29:34
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Two games does not a season make . . . especially when Ovechkin and the Caps are flying like they were tonight.
The big thing for me tonight was the defensive pairing change, Schenn and Beauchemin were split up, and Schenn started playing with White. And, it worked, or at least, they played much better in the third.
We'll see, but I am waiting for a dozen games or so until I start saying pass or fail for our vaunted new D. They need time to find good pairings, learn a new system, and get familiar with their teammates.
It's a long season.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 04:51:02
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The Leafs have something like 12 newcomers in the lineup and you guys are right about one thing - 2 games does not make a season. These guys will need to play a bit to figure out there communication and styles of play. The defense has been poor these first two games and I am not putting blame on anyone but Beauchemin has been on the ice for 6 of the 10 goals allowed. He looks lost out there and is getting caught out position a lot. He will settle down. Good to Schenn respond and play better after being moved with White last night. I think he was trying to do way to much covering for Beauchemin.
Goaltending- face it Toskala is letting to soft of goals. I do not know how many opportunities Wilson wants to give him. That first goal was horrible and it had a huge effect on the leafs as team. Gustavsson looked good and left to the firing squad, I mean 2 breakaways in 12 min is absurd, but he did not let in any soft goals and the third goal was off Beauchemins skate. I think Wilson has give Gustavsson the next start and send a message to Toskala. After all he has stated the leafs have to earn their spot on this team.
There are some good positive things from this squad, they show a good speedy forecheck. The Stempniak, Wallin, Mitchell line is a good 3rd line that plays good two way hockey and Blake, Stajan, and Stahlberg have been able to create offensive chances regularly.
I say let the team play a few games before roasting them, I think they look like a better club then last years and just need that time to work together some more. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 07:41:25
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100% agreed, Porkchop.
Beauchemin is a player I was most excited about coming to Toronto, and like you say, he has been on the ice for many of the goals scored so far . . . he is a very good player and a seasoned pro, he will bounce back and gel eventually.
Wilson is a good coach, he has so far in my mind made all the right decisions for moving personnel around, and I have to say the biggest surprise is Stempniak. It looks like with the right players beside him, Stempniak might actually start realising his potential, and here I had already given up on him.
I will make harsher judgements on my Leafs after the next 5 games, where if playing well we should win 3 at least. The only thing truly missing was a key save here or there, and a sometimes inept defence that I feel is mainly due to bad pairings/unfamiliarity. We'll be ok.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 08:04:52
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Tell me one goal that Toskala allowed that was soft???
Let's break this down.
Montreal
Goal #1 - Gionta on a PP, left completely alone in front of the net after the face off. Beauchemin left his spot in front of the the net and went to play the puck softly and missed. Toskala had no chance
Goal #2 - Travis Moen was left alone in front of the net. Schenn was on the other side of the net a waiting a pass. Beauchemin got taken out of the play with a check and the puck squirted free, right to the stick of Moen. MAYBE Toskala could have had this one, but it was pretty fast. I wouldn't call this soft.
Goal #3 - Glen Metropoit on the PP, deflection goal. Left all alone in front of the net, Beachemin stood right beside him and didn't put a body on him
And let's not forget the game saving stop that Toskala made with less than 3 minutes left after the Leafs defense turned the pucker over 12' in front of their own net!
Goal#4 - Gorges, after Schenn and Beauchemin stood watching the puck in their own slot and Gorges slashed in and banked it home.
In the Montreal game, every goal was scored within 10' of the net, two were PP, and one was a deflection. Don't believe me??
http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2009020002
Washington
Goal # 1- Ovechkin uses Schenn as a screen and fires a shot that many goalies have been burnt on, this after Beauchemin was caught up ice. Toskala did get a piece of this, so I might conceed that he could have had this one.
Goal #2 - On the PP again. Shot initially stopped by Toskala and it wasn't a huge rebound. Both defenders for the Leafs had their sticks off the ice??? Reboud to Knuble, goal. Toskala had no chance. Ironically enough, Beauchemin again on the ice with a player in front of the net and he didn't put a body on him until the puck was in the net.
Goal #3 - Brooks Laich on a breakaway after both Leaf Defensemen(if you were wondering, it was Beauchemin again) were stuck up ice which was about the 20th stretch pass the Caps did in the first period. A goalie is a lower percentage in a break away. They will save fewer than they let in. This isn't a TO thing, it's a hockey thing.
http://www.nhl.com/scores/index.html#?navid=nav-scr-main
Toskala let in 7 goals through 4 periods. 3 were on the PP, all of them had very questionable defensive plays, and there were MAYBE 2 that Toskala could have had back. 5 of them, Toskala had no chance. Realistically, there was one softish goal, and Ovechkin and full speed using the defender as a screen is not soft in my humble opinion.
And to prove my point even futher, what happened when the Monster came in??? EXACT SAME THING. He was completely hung out to dry by his defense as well. I would not pin any of the 3 goals allowed on him either.
Now, the Leafs did man up in the 3rd period very well. Wilson did something between the 2nd and 3rd and switched up the lines as Slozo said, and the improved a lot. But Toskala or Gustovvson will both be less than successful unless the Leafs of the 3rd period last night come to play every night. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 10:09:50
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Beans you just proved what a few persons said. Beauchemin played two aweful games and was on the ice for many goals and he was also not covering his man or out of play.
He's still adjusting, and we believe he will rebound.
As for the debate with Toskala. I understand that a lot of Leafs defense (especially last year) is to blame. But you still need your #1 goalie to steal a game once in a while. Which Toskala can't do.
How many times, last night against Washington, did you see Varlamov do a big save covering for his defense making a mistake, and the team goes the other way and scores. And how many times did you see it from Price thursday night. Or Anderson in Colorado, or Kipper in Calgary. That's what we need from Toskala, and if he can't deliver that, he's on a short leash and Gustavsson will have every opportunity to prove himself.
Yes Toskala is a good goaltender and could do the job in other teams like Detroit, San Jose, Philadelphia, Boston or whatever, but as for the Leafs we still have a long way to be among the elite, so we need a bonified number one goalie and sorry but Toskala is not the answer. We don't know about Gustavsson yet but we can only hope.
I think the best scenario this year would be Toskala to rebound and play like two years ago and play around 50 games, and Gustavsson to be a solid backup with good numbers and play around 35 games. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 13:28:41
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Beans let me tell you the soft goals that Toskala has let in. The first one is the second goal in the Montreal game. The second one is the first goal in the Capitals game.
I call them soft because both should have been stopped easily. These are goals that confident #1 goaltenders in the NHL do not let in.
What is more important is the effect of these goals on the Leafs. If the Habs second goal does not go in the Leafs continue their confident play and domination of the game. Instead they collapse a bit without trust that their netminder is going to stop the next shot. The captials first goal just plain knocked the leafs on their butts. The capitals had come out flying and a 30ft goal that should have been stopeed at just over a minute into the game took away any thoughts the leafs had about being able to survive the early onslaught. That shot is stopped and maybe the Leafs play different knowing their goaltender is on his game, instead the leafs get burned playing on their heels not knowing if Toskala is going to stop the next shot.
I think most will agree that after Gustavsson settled down and started making stops, the Leafs played differently. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 13:53:17
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Really Porkchop??? A screened deflection on the PP and Ovechkin at full speed using Schen as a screen are weak goals???
Ok, fine. I can't agree with you, but what about the other 5 he let in??? What about those??? If the defense on the Leafs were anything better than a Junior B group, we would be talking about at least one Leaf win and Toskala is comfortably the #1 goalie.
Serious, don't turn into one of those Leaf fans that see things through the Blue Tint.
I can't wait. I really hope the Leafs crap the bed in the first 20 games and Burke finds a way to get Toskala to a different team. Then maybe the the Leaf fans will see that the Monster is no better than Toskala and that until the Leafs can find some kind of players who can play defense, the goalie is irrelevant.
And has anyone else noticed that for all he beef that Burke picked up they really haven't dominated physically??? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 10/04/2009 13:55:58 |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 15:57:48
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Come on Beans, I am sure you are not using your hatred for the Leafs to cloud your view here but those goals were easy stops even for Andrew Raycroft.
I am not looking through my Leafs blue glasses on this and in no way am I saying throw Toskala under the bus. But I think those goals changed the way the Leafs played those games.
They were dominating the Habs and that second goal changed how they were playing. I think they win that game had Toskala not let that goal in at that time.
They may never have been in the game against the Caps (by the way an incredible two games for the Caps) but an early goal like that takes any confidence the team had and crushes it. Especially when Toskala has yet to show his game from two seasons ago. The shot should have been stopped. Toskala was caught flat footed and not ready.
Teams play different when they have confidence in their goalie. Clearly the Leaf players have no confidence in Toskala.
Also I have not nor am I declaring "the Monster" the saviour or anything like that but I like what I see. Do I think is a NHL caliber #1 goalie? I don't know yet, he is big, covers the net well, takes away the bottom very good, and has good mobility. He needs to play more to make the call but I still like what I see.
I am sure you remember a young kid named Felix Potvin who was a little shaky and unproven but played well in a backup roll to Grant Fuhr in 92/93. By the end of the season Grant Fuhr was in St. Louis.
I am hoping Toskala improves by being pushed by this kid, but Gustavsson proves to be a good keeper then by all means give him the #1 job.
The Leafs defence has to come together and I think once they get a few games under their belt they will improve. They have the talent to be a very good defence if they can figure how to play together.
I am very surprised to see you jump all over the Leafs after only two games. Very uncharacteristic of you. You usually have the most open minded view of anyone in these forums. Could it be your general disdain for anything Leafs? |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 10/04/2009 16:00:47 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 19:28:59
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Hey Mr Chop, is it at all possible that Toskala is playing without confidence in his defensive group??? And my bias towards disliking the Leafs makes no sense when I am defending the play of their goalie. In every goal, you can point out a glaring defensive mistake. Not a little mistake, huge, pee wee wouldn't make the mistake kind of mistake.
You may be right. Gustovsson may get the start on Tuesday. He may go on a streak and win a few. But I am telling you as honestly as is humanly possible, I put 100% of the blame on the Leafs start on the poor defense and the bad penalties taken. Gustovsson and Toskala both have played adaquately. Not great by any stretch of the word, but definately well enough that they were giving their team a chance to win if the 5 skaters outside of the blue ice, and specifically their defense gave them an effort. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 03:58:08
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Certainly he could have no confidence in his defence in front of him and your point is well taken. I do not think any goaltender would have confidence in the way the Leafs have played D. But.... defense had nothing to do with the two goals I declare as the soft goals. One was a 30ft shot for petes sake. When Ovechkin has the puck you better prepared and Toskala wasn't.
My point is not that Toskala is poor goalie but he has lost the knack of making the key saves. Two seasons ago those shots would not have gotten by Toskala. Also in my first post I glaringly point out the atrocious play of Beauchemin in his first to starts. So yes I know the defence is not good yet and agree with your defensive lapse comments
Its early and I think Wilson has to stand by his comments of veterans earning their spots. Toskala needs to feel the pressure, thats how he performed so well in SanJose.
Also Beans, you have to admit that Gustavsson looks so far, with his limited play, to be the stronger goalie. His position, is quickness and agility is looking better then Toskala. I am saying he is for sure NHL star but his play shows the ability to play in this league and shows he has the ability to become a better then average NHL goalie. And he looks better then Toskala right now.
Its not like he is veteran goalie who gave the puck away for a game winning goal? |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 10/05/2009 03:59:55 |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 06:57:10
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i agree with beans, the maple leafs defence as a group has been awful.
I dont how Toskala could possibly look good right now with the way he's been left alone out there. Im especially disapointed in beauchimen, while I feel his game will round into form, he has been just brutal. I have to admit though, Gustavsson didn't look too bad while he was in there. He allowed 3 goals, but made a number of good saves. I think we have 2 very capable goaltenders, its the d zone coverage that needs work.
Im sort of chalking this early season performance up to chemistry. Most of the ice time in the preseason was givien to the rookies looking to crack the lineup. The current lineup has really only played 2 games together and many of the newcomers and pressing, looking to impress the coach and the fans. They are only making mistakes and playing sloppy, risk filled hockey.
Starting the season off like this definatley makes leaf fans worrired considering the high hopes we had going into the start of the season, but im confident that things will turn a corner here shortly. Its not like they are going to go 0-81-1 with the lineup they have.
On a montreal note, boy are they going to miss Markov. Especially now that I hear O'Byrne and Metropolit are hurt as well. Carey Price looked great on saturday, if he doesnt have a strong game like that the leafs win that game by a couple, despite the costly errors on the leafs end. Habs looked pretty good in stretches.
Hey beans, WTF was with the season opening festivities in Edmonton, it was like cirque du solei gone horribley wrong
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 10:14:40
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Porkchop, I can agree that Gustavsson looked alright in his first game. not brilliant but not shabby either. But if you are eluding to Gustavsson looking better than Toskala, I would emphatically disagree. Toskala made at least 4 saves in the Habs game that were brilliant. The last coming with less then 3 minutes to go when he completely stoned the Habs player in the slot after his defense turned the puck over in the slot.
Gustavsson looked average in his first period (the Team's 2nd period) on Saturday night. He only looked good once his defense stepped up in the 3rd. That in itself is questionable. Did the defense step up or the Caps lay back more in the 3rd period with an already 5 goal lead??? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 10:17:55
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Yep, 2nd season opener in Edmonton that was embarassing. Almost as embarassing as having your biggest free agent signing lose the home opener with a bonehead play in the last minute. Although, if O'Sullivan could hit an open net the Oilers would have have at least 3 more goals and won the game handily. Good start for the Oilers win an unfortunate result. Edmonton also seems to have the same illness as the Leafs in that their Defense slept through the better part of the first 2 periods.
Come to think of it, Vancouver's defense has been garbage in their 1st too game and for as highly touted as Calgary's defense is they have been very average as well.
Maybe it's all of Canada's defense that needs some work! I'm blaming the Swine Flu! |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
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2009-2010 Leafs?? 
