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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2009 : 16:10:32
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So far, the winter classic has featured Montreal, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago, and soon, Philadelphia and Boston. No surprise that the Panthers or Lightning haven't been invited to play outdoors yet, given that to play in a heritage classic, there needs to be some classic heritage behind your franchise.
Yet I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that two of the original six teams have yet to be invited to play outdoors, even so eight others got the invite. Seems like Toronto and New York have been blacklisted!
Obviously, that's not the case, and for a whole number of reasons, it made more sense to feature the teams that have been featured, in the given venues. But here's my question(s) to everyone:
1) When will the Leafs get the call to play outdoors?
2) Who will it be against, given that Boston, Buffalo, and Montreal are highly unlikely to be options?
3) Is their non-invite a function of not being very good? After all, every team to play in the classic was fun and exciting. Will the Leafs need to become a better team before getting invited?
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Kirby
Top Prospect
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2009 : 17:02:59
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Idk about the needing to be good thing, but maybe Toronto and NY get it in 2011. Also, the Heritage classic was to give fans a taste of the glory days again. For their will never again be teams as dominant as the Habs of the 70's and Oilers of the 80's. At least, as long as there is a salary cap.
I skate where the puck is going to be, not where it has been.-Wayne Gretzky |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 05:12:45
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I have thought about this very subject before, and it sort of makes sense that they'd want the two most competetive teams they could get. I mean, it's one game, and although on any given day almost any team can beat any other, you'd want to up the odds and get a good draw - that means two at least good teams, some superstar names, and maybe even a rivalry.
I am actually more suprised that the Rangers haven't played yet, because they are the big ticket american draw, and they have a decent enough team. But maybe Bettman is just saving them for the Leafs . . .
Leafs will be better this year, and hopefully even better the next, maybe they'll get to play then . . . the largest and most profitable draws in the entire NHL (Leafs, NYR) getting to go as the last original 6ers. It would be a ratings bonanza, that's for sure.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 05:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
So far, the winter classic has featured Montreal, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago, and soon, Philadelphia and Boston. No surprise that the Panthers or Lightning haven't been invited to play outdoors yet, given that to play in a heritage classic, there needs to be some classic heritage behind your franchise.
Yet I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that two of the original six teams have yet to be invited to play outdoors, even so eight others got the invite. Seems like Toronto and New York have been blacklisted!
Obviously, that's not the case, and for a whole number of reasons, it made more sense to feature the teams that have been featured, in the given venues. But here's my question(s) to everyone:
1) When will the Leafs get the call to play outdoors?
2) Who will it be against, given that Boston, Buffalo, and Montreal are highly unlikely to be options?
3) Is their non-invite a function of not being very good? After all, every team to play in the classic was fun and exciting. Will the Leafs need to become a better team before getting invited?
Looking back at it, the original classic held at Commonwealth in Edmonton, the Oilers were a bottom feeder then. When the PIT vs. BUF game was announced, the Pens still weren't a "top" team. Also, when the Hawks/Wings game was announced, same thing, the Hawks were still rebuilding, no one could have expected them to be as good as they were or are. So to say it's based on a teams skill, no too likely.
Personally, I think of one strong factor that's keeping the Buds and Rangers from lacing up at Yankee Stadium or BMO Field. They don't need the publicity. They're fan base respectively, is solid. Both teams sellout, think about it, the Leafs have sold out every home game for the last 30 years or so. The NHL will continue to invite nontraditional teams in order to build fan fare in those cities. Alex, like you said, won't be surprised to see them hold one with 2 random teams (i.e. Phoenix vs. Nashville!)...
It's unfortunate, they could easily hold one at the Rogers Centre or Yankee Stadium and get at least 60,000 people in there (if it was in fact between the Rangers and Leafs).
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 05:40:41
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Rambo, I actually said I didn't expect non-traditional teams to get the invite.
I think the heritage classic is a way for the NHL to say, ''Look, the year is 2009, and there are going to be teams in Tennessee and California. But, we understand and respect the heritage of the game and are willing to celebrate our roots in an appropriate venue with two appropriate teams once a year." From that standpoint, it's doing very well. To bring the Ducks or Sharks or Canes into the classic would destroy the essence of it. Ain't happening. |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 05:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Rambo, I actually said I didn't expect non-traditional teams to get the invite.
I think the heritage classic is a way for the NHL to say, ''Look, the year is 2009, and there are going to be teams in Tennessee and California. But, we understand and respect the heritage of the game and are willing to celebrate our roots in an appropriate venue with two appropriate teams once a year." From that standpoint, it's doing very well. To bring the Ducks or Sharks or Canes into the classic would destroy the essence of it. Ain't happening.
Misunderstood your original post. However, I will disagree and say that before the Leafs, Rangers, or other teams with deep histories get to play in the Winter Classic, you'll see the small market teams that still have weak fan bases...
Also, anyone note that the title "Heritage Classic" was scrapped after the first year, and has been called the "AMPed Energy Winter Classic" ever since...so the "heritage" factor is pretty much nonexistent now...
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 05:59:39
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Let's face it - Bettman, the ex-basketball executive lawyer, doesn't know jack about NHL heritage, or how to respect it. Every action he has taken indicates this . . . and this is just another one of those moves that leaves you scratching your head.
Let's see them try and play an outdoor game in Phoenix, eh? 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 07/20/2009 : 06:10:07
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I think another good question is, once the NHL has used up it's Northern teams in the Classic, are they going to start repeating teams or will they stop it for a while? There's no way that all 30 teams can play in this event before there start being repeats simply due to climate.
What teams are still available to host / play who haven't been in the event who's team is far enough north to guarantee a cold enough day to play outside? Vancouver (never gets that cold in the winter), Minnesota (St. Paul), NJ?, NYI, Ottawa, Toronto, Colorado and NYR.
SJ, LA, Anaheim, Phoenix, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Carolina (Raleigh), Tampa and Florida (Sunrise) can never host this event and would have to be invited to one of the above venues. Not sure what the winters are like in St. Louis, Columbus and Washington, so those are most likely too borderline to plan an event just due to the risk.
So that's roughly 7 teams that haven't been in the Classic that can most likely still host. If the NHL has a NYR vs TOR game then that cuts down on the number of future venues unless they want to repeat teams. |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 06:19:33
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By right, if the NHL wanted to include all 30 teams in the event. They would have had to start by matching a southern team, with a northern team. This would allow a team like Dallas or San Jose to play a team like Boston or Toronto. Eventually there will be repeats and different match ups. At least this way, if you don't use traditional teams, everyone gets a chance to play...
However, we all know Bettman and the rest of the NHL board don't really plan ahead to well :P
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2009 : 07:17:05
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Here's my humble opinion. I think that the NHL will eventually have both the Leafs and Rangers in the outdoor game if they continue to have them. The thing I think the NHL sees as the requirements for this is not only teams and the possible rivalry/history between them, but also the venue.
That being said, I am sure that the Leafs have great games against the Rangers, but I have never seen them as bitter rivals. To me, it would make more sense to see the Leafs play Montreal. More recently, the Leafs most hated rivals have been the Sens. And the Rangers have always had a little something with the Devils and at times through hockey history with the Islanders.
So this would be my plans if I was saddled with the job of "outdoor games coordinator".
2011 - Toronto vs Ottawa on the Rideau Canal
2012 - New York Rangers vs New York Islanders in Central Park
2013 - Vancouver Canucks vs Minesota Wild in Whistler
2014 - Colorado Avalanche vs. Philadelphia Flyers in the Colorado Rockies.
2015 - All Star Game on a rink built outside of the Hockey Hall of Fame (Not sure if there is room on the street but maybe the parking lot of the ACC or Skydome??) |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 07/20/2009 : 07:59:58
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Beans,
Those are awesome suggestions! a game on the Rideau would be monumental, I wonder how many fans would actually be able to see it though but I'm sure that would be worked out. The central park idea is awesome too. For the Colorado Game, if you're going to repeat a team I would bring in Detroit, and try and play off the old Colorado / Detroit rivalry. If not Detroit, maybe a SJ or LA (if the teams are competitive) just to bring in new blood and play to the possibly large California fan base. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2009 : 14:50:31
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| Torand Ottawa will play in one.. they really ruined the point of it though after the first one. They brought it back last year and this year isn`t bad but the Pitts and Buffalo one was stupid. They should be based on a rivalry, or like the Habs of the 70`s and Oilers of the 80`s possibly the two greatest dynasties ever that we will most likely never get to see again. |
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Guest0931
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Posted - 07/21/2009 : 18:33:02
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Axey,
You can't build tradition if you don't start somewhere. Buffalo was chosen because the venue in Orchard Park nearby could hold over 70,000 people (71,217 people attended, thank you wikipedia). Ralph Wilson stadium is the largest stadium in NY. This offered the public, and in particular American fans an epic event to watch in a familiar setting (a football field where the Bills regularly play in the snow), with two american teams staring. So now with Buffalo being the host, the NHL chose to showcase it's "Next One" in Sid the Kid at the same time. The choice was logical, and in the end with the snow falling and finishing with a 2-1 win delivered by Crosby in the shootout, turned out to be an instant classic.
Another note, when this game was decided summer before 07-08 season, Buffalo had just tied with Detroit for most pts in the league (113) and looked like a legit Stanley Cup favourite and Pittsburgh had just had their turnaround season 58 pts in 05-06, 105 pts in 06-07.
Stupid, I think not.
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2009 : 01:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
Torand Ottawa will play in one.. they really ruined the point of it though after the first one. They brought it back last year and this year isn`t bad but the Pitts and Buffalo one was stupid. They should be based on a rivalry, or like the Habs of the 70`s and Oilers of the 80`s possibly the two greatest dynasties ever that we will most likely never get to see again.
The problem is a stadium has to say yes to the leauge useing it, for instance they wanted last years to be in yankee staduim but they wouldnt let them use it. as for the comments about needing to play in a cold place, the NHL can actualy hold one anywhere because they have some machine for keeping the ice frozen.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2009 : 05:14:13
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What about the Rogers Centre? Can easily get 60,000 people in there. Also, with the roof closed, crazy atmosphere. Hell, open her up for the game! :D lol
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 07/22/2009 : 05:48:52
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Another pt I forgot to mention last night (dif computer, was 0931) is that the NHL doesn't need to host an event in Toronto because fans in Toronto are going to watch the Winter Classic regardless of who's playing, I know I watched both the Buf/Pitt and Chi/Det game. The Classic is a way to market the game, and you don't need to market hockey to Toronotonians. Now that the Winter Classic is getting established as a tradition you can start looking down the road to plan for teams like Toronto to be added to that tradition.
And no you can't hold one anywhere, I don't think there'll be an outdoor shirts vs skins game in Phoenix or Dallas any time soon even if they could keep the ice frozen, which in these southern climates I find highly improbable. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2009 : 12:20:47
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| What about the idea of a game out doors in a soccer stadium in Europe? Imagine Old Trafford or Wembley stadium or some other stadium packed with 100,000- 120,000 fans. Good way to grow the game as well, not saying don't have one in North America because we are the real fans here. But hell we could take it to a new level and make it not only NHL teams but maybe an all star game or international friendly game. |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2009 : 12:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
What about the idea of a game out doors in a soccer stadium in Europe? Imagine Old Trafford or Wembley stadium or some other stadium packed with 100,000- 120,000 fans. Good way to grow the game as well, not saying don't have one in North America because we are the real fans here. But hell we could take it to a new level and make it not only NHL teams but maybe an all star game or international friendly game.
NHL All-stars vs. KHL All-Stars!!!
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2009 : 13:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rambo2305
quote:
Originally posted by Axey
What about the idea of a game out doors in a soccer stadium in Europe? Imagine Old Trafford or Wembley stadium or some other stadium packed with 100,000- 120,000 fans. Good way to grow the game as well, not saying don't have one in North America because we are the real fans here. But hell we could take it to a new level and make it not only NHL teams but maybe an all star game or international friendly game.
NHL All-stars vs. KHL All-Stars!!!
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
Beautiful. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2009 : 14:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
What about the idea of a game out doors in a soccer stadium in Europe? Imagine Old Trafford or Wembley stadium or some other stadium packed with 100,000- 120,000 fans. Good way to grow the game as well, not saying don't have one in North America because we are the real fans here. But hell we could take it to a new level and make it not only NHL teams but maybe an all star game or international friendly game.
Granted there are soccer stadiums in Europe which might hold something like this, but there are too many logistically issues.
1) Anyone who think any British Soccer team will give up their stadium in the middle of their respective soccer season (FA Cup, Premier League, Champions League, first divison, what ever) is completely insane.
2) Anyone who thinks it would happen in England at all is crazy. There isn't a time in the year where they average below 0!! It's not cold. That's why they play soccer through winter. It might snow a bit, but not much and it's doesn't stay.
3) The places that would get cold enough (Finland, Sweden, Norway, Russia, etc) only get cold enough in Winter. How is the NHL going to send a couple of teams over seas for one game and have them return without messing up other parts of the schedule.
This will never happen. |
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2009 : 10:41:17
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| Beans, there isn't a stadium in Whistler to host an outdoor game. It would have to be in BC Place in Vancouver - it will have a new retractable roof by then, although it will most likely be raining out, I don't know if the outdoors feeling would really be feasible out here on the West Coast. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2009 : 15:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by just1n
Beans, there isn't a stadium in Whistler to host an outdoor game. It would have to be in BC Place in Vancouver - it will have a new retractable roof by then, although it will most likely be raining out, I don't know if the outdoors feeling would really be feasible out here on the West Coast.
Why does it have to be in a stadium?? Why can't it just be outside at the ski hill. I mean, using the Edmonton Indy as an example, there are enough seats set up and taken down for 60,000+ fans. They definately could put up enough temp seating for 15,000.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2009 : 07:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by just1n
Beans, there isn't a stadium in Whistler to host an outdoor game. It would have to be in BC Place in Vancouver - it will have a new retractable roof by then, although it will most likely be raining out, I don't know if the outdoors feeling would really be feasible out here on the West Coast.
Why does it have to be in a stadium?? Why can't it just be outside at the ski hill. I mean, using the Edmonton Indy as an example, there are enough seats set up and taken down for 60,000+ fans. They definately could put up enough temp seating for 15,000.
Agreed....with the Olympics coming next year, you'd think they'd have the ability to set up enough seating at one of the venues at the base of Whistler? |
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Guest6196
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Posted - 07/28/2009 : 09:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
[quote]Originally posted by just1n
Beans, there isn't a stadium in Whistler to host an outdoor game. It would have to be in BC Place in Vancouver - it will have a new retractable roof by then, although it will most likely be raining out, I don't know if the outdoors feeling would really be feasible out here on the West Coast.
Why does it have to be in a stadium?? Why can't it just be outside at the ski hill. I mean, using the Edmonton Indy as an example, there are enough seats set up and taken down for 60,000+ fans. They definately could put up enough temp seating for 15,000.
Agreed....with the Olympics coming next year, you'd think they'd have the ability to set up enough seating at one of the venues at the base of Whistler?
Money, bottom line money, same reason Edm is trying to make a permanent home and stands for the Indy.
It costs a lot to set up and take down temp seats. |
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Can't believe no one brought this up yet... 
