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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
 Posted - 09/02/2009 : 17:38:57
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I'm now sick and tired of people calling Roberto Luongo the NHL's top goalie. With all due respect, he is fantastic when he wants to be, and sometimes that seems to be a rare occurance. Inconsistency has plaiged him throughout his career, but unfortunately people only seem to remember him for his better times.
This is a guy now who has not advanced past the 2nd round of the playoffs. A guy who completely collapsed at the hands of the Blackhawks. A guy who is apparently going to knock off Brodeur as team Canada's number one goalie. The question I ask is why? What has he done to prove he is infact better than arguably the best.
I'm sure all us Canadians remember the Turin olympics, although many of us would rather forget the event. Team Canada struggled in every aspect of it's game, except goaltending. Brodeur was the much better goalie in that tournament therefore getting the right to play in team Canada's elimanation game against the Russians. Brodeur stood on his head the entire game only surrendering 2 goals. He was hung out to dry in some cases aginst the likes of Ovechkin, Kovalchuk and Datsyuk.
Many people will disagree with me when I say Brodeur is still the best goalie around. Many will say that he's not the same goalie he was on those olympics, even before them. That's where I have to agree. He's better, he gained more knowledge and experience.
I had the pleasure of reading Brodeur's autobiography, in which he explained how he had gained playing experience over the years, and with that experience came better play, and I have to completely agree. Brodeur is somebody who would retire if he were not at the top of his game still, which he also said in his book. He sees no sense in playing he is no longer as good as he once was.
His best is very hard to top. This is a goalie who has won several cups and awards during his career. Luongo has some of the numbers, but is nowhere near Brodeur in any catergory. Let's take a look at the stats:
Roberto Luongo:
- 2 time 2nd All-Star team
- named to 4 All-Star games
- World Junior best goalie award
- World junior All-Star team.
- NHL league record for most shots faced in a single season
- NHL league record for most saves in a single season (same season)
- NHL league record for most shots faced in a single playoff game
Now, tell me how amazing Luongo is. If he's truly the best, why has he not even once been selected as a 1st team All-Star? Why has he only been selected for 4 All-Star games? And why has he not won a stanley cup. Perhaps you can balme some of that on the team, but that's not enough of an excuse.
Martin Brodeur:
I'm not going to get into all of them, but:
- 3 time 1st All-Star team
- 4 time 2nd All-Star team
- NHL All-Rookie team
- 10 All-Star games
- olympic gold medal
- 3 time Stanley Cup champion
- 4 time Vezina winner
- 4 time Willam M Jennings recipient (least goals allowed)
- Most regular season wins (557)
- 2nd place, Most shutouts (101)
- Most combined shutouts (118, both regular season and playoffs)
- Most overtime wins (45)
- Most consecutive 30-win seasons (12)
- Most consecutive 35-win seasons (11)
- Most 40-win seasons (7)
I'll let the stats speak for themselves. these are the reasons why Luongo is simply not the best and should not start at these olympics. I encourange other's thoughts.
Colin Wilson- The future
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 17:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
I'm now sick and tired of people calling Roberto Luongo the NHL's top goalie. With all due respect, he is fantastic when he wants to be, and sometimes that seems to be a rare occurance. Inconsistency has plaiged him throughout his career, but unfortunately people only seem to remember him for his better times.
This is a guy now who has not advanced past the 2nd round of the playoffs. A guy who completely collapsed at the hands of the Blackhawks. A guy who is apparently going to knock off Brodeur as team Canada's number one goalie. The question I ask is why? What has he done to prove he is infact better than arguably the best.
I'm sure all us Canadians remember the Turin olympics, although many of us would rather forget the event. Team Canada struggled in every aspect of it's game, except goaltending. Brodeur was the much better goalie in that tournament therefore getting the right to play in team Canada's elimanation game against the Russians. Brodeur stood on his head the entire game only surrendering 2 goals. He was hung out to dry in some cases aginst the likes of Ovechkin, Kovalchuk and Datsyuk.
Many people will disagree with me when I say Brodeur is still the best goalie around. Many will say that he's not the same goalie he was on those olympics, even before them. That's where I have to agree. He's better, he gained more knowledge and experience.
I had the pleasure of reading Brodeur's autobiography, in which he explained how he had gained playing experience over the years, and with that experience came better play, and I have to completely agree. Brodeur is somebody who would retire if he were not at the top of his game still, which he also said in his book. He sees no sense in playing he is no longer as good as he once was.
His best is very hard to top. This is a goalie who has won several cups and awards during his career. Luongo has some of the numbers, but is nowhere near Brodeur in any catergory. Let's take a look at the stats:
Roberto Luongo:
- 2 time 2nd All-Star team
- named to 4 All-Star games
- World Junior best goalie award
- World junior All-Star team.
- NHL league record for most shots faced in a single season
- NHL league record for most saves in a single season (same season)
- NHL league record for most shots faced in a single playoff game
Now, tell me how amazing Luongo is. If he's truly the best, why has he not even once been selected as a 1st team All-Star? Why has he only been selected for 4 All-Star games? And why has he not won a stanley cup. Perhaps you can balme some of that on the team, but that's not enough of an excuse.
Martin Brodeur:
I'm not going to get into all of them, but:
- 3 time 1st All-Star team
- 4 time 2nd All-Star team
- NHL All-Rookie team
- 10 All-Star games
- olympic gold medal
- 3 time Stanley Cup champion
- 4 time Vezina winner
- 4 time Willam M Jennings recipient (least goals allowed)
- Most regular season wins (557)
- 2nd place, Most shutouts (101)
- Most combined shutouts (118, both regular season and playoffs)
- Most overtime wins (45)
- Most consecutive 30-win seasons (12)
- Most consecutive 35-win seasons (11)
- Most 40-win seasons (7)
I'll let the stats speak for themselves. these are the reasons why Luongo is simply not the best and should not start at these olympics. I encourange other's thoughts.
Colin Wilson- The future
There is no doubt that Brodeur is an elite goalie and that he is greatly accomplished at his position. He will be, when his career is over, the best goalie to have played the game. Or atleast only second fiddle to Patrick Roy. The difference between him and Luongo; however, is that Brodeur played in New Jersey his whole career behind a defensively sound but offensively gifted team. Luongo has played the majority of his career on the stumbling Panther franchise. You can't tell me that if the roles were reversed that Brodeur would have had the same success that he enjoyed in NJ. Is Luongo better then Brodeur right now? Yes, but in part due to Marty's injury plagued season last year. Will Marty get the start for team Canada? I would say yes, provided he returns to form and is healthy when the Olypics kick off. Luongo will be number two in depth though.
Now, you say Luongo is inconsistent? Have you watched him play? Without him the Canucks would not likely have the chance to win games on a nighlty basis. As far as Canadian keepers are concerned he is as good as Brodeur if not better, RIGHT NOW. I've already said that career wise Marty has him beat, but Marty has played about 8 more seasons as well, ALL OF THEM with the competitive Devils. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 19:06:14
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Here's the thing, I agree completely that Brodeur is still the #1 goalie in the world today. Nothing will change my mind of that. Today
Now, that being said, I emphatically agree with anyone that says Luongo is #2 and the gap is closing. Luongo has Brodeur by 7 years and Brodeur has played in nearly double the number of regular season games (999 for Brodeur to 544 for Luongo). You can not compare total achievements of the two when one has played double the games as the other.
And the fact that Brodeur has had Hall of Famers playing with him through his career is a huge advantage in total sucess. I don't think (except maybe Linden who is a stretch) that Luongo has played with a single HOFer let alone multiple HOFer's at the same time.
Now, for the sake of arguement, let's look at Brodeur and Luongo through same(or close to the same) number of games/seasons.
Brodeur-Through 8 seasons
515 games, 284-141-78 record(.551 win %) GAA of 2.21 and a save % of .907
Luongo-Through 8 Seasons
545 games, 230-232-64 record (.422 win%) GAA of 2.57 and a save % of .914
So, there are some telling things in that alone. Firstly, I think most would agree that Brodeur's Devils teams in those years (93-01) were substantially better than the teams that Luogno has played on. So it's easy to see that Brodeur has a higher win %. However, one thing that I find interesting is their GAA's and save % are close. That speaks volumes for Luongo and his skill when he can throw up All Star and playoff type numbers on teams(not including the Canucks) that are not even close to the playoffs. In fact, Broduer, in those first 8 seasons played in 108 playoff games. Luongo through 8 seasons, 12 playoff games. Only 2 times did Luongo's teams make the playoffs while Brodeur'ss teams were playoff bound in 7 of his first 8 years.
Perhaps the most telling stat of Luongo's skills comparative is in shots on goal. Luongo averaged over 28 shots per game through 8 seasons. Broduer averaged 23. So Luongo put up similar or in some cases better save % and GAA facing an average of 410 more shots (or 17 games worth)than Brodeur.
Again, I agree that Brodeur is my guy in vitually every situations. But Luongo is #2 and it's really not that hard to think that he's #1 in some peoples books. Let's see what happens in the next 500 games for Luongo. Throw in a Cup or two and multiple more awards and the arguement becomes..........................
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 20:19:02
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Haha! Beans, I only read the original post and was so motivated that i went off and did all this research and was going to post the mother of all posts in defense of Luongo...then i realized that you had done all the work for me. haha! Thanks! Don;t forget his shut out numbers though - 47 shut outs in 544 games, that is almost 9% of his games ending in a shut out! This isn't a fluke either, he's been doing it his whole career even in Florida.
I whole heartedly agree with Beans. Luongo represents the changing of the guard in net for team Canada. It may not be this Olympics however, because I believe out of complete respect Brodeur will be given the pole position (assuming he returns to form...which he will) I think there is a huge chance that he will be stellar and Luongo will get back up ice time. Either way I'm happy as a Canadian fan.
As for Nashvillepreds saying that Luongo is inconsistent he is completely basing it on fiction. It's a symptom of short term memory...he only recalls a couple bad games from the playoffs (including the last game where the Canucks got bounced) Luongo is actually the absolute definition of consistency...most nights he is the only thing consistent for the Vancouver Canucks.
I think the world of Brodeur, he is the man, but mark my words; if Luongo stays healthy he WILL break all of Brodeur's personal records. It may take Luongo more games due to his unfortunate days in Florida, but it will happen. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 20:23:33
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Big time agree with Leigh here on everything.
The only thing I can see, specifically with long term signing today. If Luongo stays in Vancouver, he may never win a Cup. They don't have the team today to do it and rebuilding in the NHL take time.
I can see Luongo being one of the greatest goalies of all time but never getting his just deserve without a Cup. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 20:36:12
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I am torn on Luongo. I think, in the end, he just hasn't had that team, that year, to make the breakthrough to glory in the finals, where the confidence shoots up to a new level after many years of slogging through it all to just make the playoffs.
I hold fast with the Swedes having the best goalie in the world right now, and Brodeur and Luongo a bit behind at the moment. We'll see how Marty starts the year out, but he is just so consistent and workmanlike, a bad year for him looks great for most others.
1-Brodeur
2-Luongo (close behind)
3 - Ward (very, very close behind Luongo in my books)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 23:02:46
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Beans, as Leigh did, i thank you for saving me a bunch of typing. nashvillepreds, sorry dude, you're way off on this one. How can you compare two individuals who've played on such different teams. It reminds me of the Patrick Roy vs Brodeur debate! Can you imagine if Roy had been traded say to NYI instead of Colorado? I mean, he was lucky to go to a team full of stars and on the verge of a dynasty! Not taking anything away from Roy, he was great but he wouldn't have the numbers he has it he'd been traded to a team which was struggling and / or rebuilding or just simly inept.
As for the Olympics, i give the nod to Brodeur as of today. However, i believe the first half of the season will be the tell tale and if one is struggling slightly, the other will likely be the starter. The only ever so slight edge i give Luongo is the games being here in Vancouver. However, this alone is not enough for him to unseat Marty. I believe Marty would have to be hurt(ing) or in a serious slump. |
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2009 : 23:55:36
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A quick blurb on the beginnings for each goalie... Brodeur came into the league in the 93-94 season, and went to the conference finals that year, and then the Devils won the Cup in the lockout-shortened 1995 season. Obviously he played on a good team, although a team made much better by his goaltending, but also factor in Jacque Lemaire's trap system - I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm going to suggest the system didn't exactly hang Brodeur out to dry too often.
In Lu's earlier days, he was facing record setting amounts of rubber in Florida, playing for a crappy team and wasn't able to get a sniff of the playoffs until a couple years ago.
So, just stating that the scenarios for these goalies have been much different. Tough to win the Jennings in Florida... |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 04:14:33
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Didn't the Rangers win the cup in the lockout shortened '94 season?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2010. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 07:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
Didn't the Rangers win the cup in the lockout shortened '94 season?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2010.
The lockout was the 94/95 season, not the 94 Cup year for the Rangers. The lockout went from Oct '94(beginning of the 94/95 season) thru till sometime in mid Jan '95 if i recall correctly. The league then played a shortened season and the Devils won the cup later that spring of '95. |
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Guest4658
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Posted - 09/03/2009 : 15:30:47
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you cant really compare the two
even if they are top 3 goalies in the world
the reason why is when broduer won the cups he was behind a GREAT team.
luongo on the other hand hasnt won the cup yet and still right now is behind a mediocre team, even though the canucks improved this off-season.
...and im a canucks fan.
Luongo is known for making sick glove saves...I think that IS why people continue to compare Broduer and Luongo, Roberto is just more athletic. So, we must WAIT and SEE when both finish their careers to start comparing them, that's the best time to do that. But if I were to build a team around one of them, my choice would be roberto, a little biased, but even before when Luongo was IN Florida, I've dreamt about having a goaltender just like him! My wishes came true!! |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 18:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4658
you cant really compare the two
even if they are top 3 goalies in the world
the reason why is when broduer won the cups he was behind a GREAT team.
luongo on the other hand hasnt won the cup yet and still right now is behind a mediocre team, even though the canucks improved this off-season.
...and im a canucks fan.
Luongo is known for making sick glove saves...I think that IS why people continue to compare Broduer and Luongo, Roberto is just more athletic. So, we must WAIT and SEE when both finish their careers to start comparing them, that's the best time to do that. But if I were to build a team around one of them, my choice would be roberto, a little biased, but even before when Luongo was IN Florida, I've dreamt about having a goaltender just like him! My wishes came true!!
Vancouver is not a mediocre team. Mediocre means average, or OK, sometimes it means low quality. None of these reflect the Vancouver team. They are not a great team but they sure are not mediocre. |
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cFoo
Top Prospect
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 14:02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca
Vancouver is not a mediocre team. Mediocre means average, or OK, sometimes it means low quality. None of these reflect the Vancouver team. They are not a great team but they sure are not mediocre.
Absolutely! Mediocre=The Leafs
It will be hard to pick one goalie over the other. With that said, in international play I would pick Brodeur over Luongo simply because of Marty's puck handling abilities. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 15:44:38
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Luongo is a top goaltender in the league today. That cannot be debateable. Now as to the Brodeur/Luongo debate, that can. Obviously the two have played on very different teams, with Luongo being on more defensively-lacking teams while Brodeur has been the typical model of perfection in the trap styling of the Devils. I don't have to repeat all of what Beans and Leigh said, as I agree 100% with them, so really the top choice is all a matter of preference and opinion.
I'd like to bring in another goaltender into the mix for having a case as being the best. People really tend to disregard Henrik Lundqvist as the best goaltender in the league, or at the least they acknowledge he is a top five goalie. But if you compare the stats of Lundy with Luongo and Brodeur you will see striking similarities.
quote:
Brodeur Through Four Seasons:
231 Games, 117 - 66 - 39(.506 Win%) Average GAA = 2.27 Average SV% = 0.914
Luongo Through Four Seasons:
243 Games, 73 - 124 - 32(.300 Win%) Average GAA = 2.59 Average SV% = 0.921
Lundqvist Through Four Seasons:
265 Games, 142 - 83 - 0(.536 Win%) Average GAA = 2.31 Average SV% = 0.917
Besides the win%, which is clearly in Lundqvist's favor, the rest is very similar to that of Brodeur and Luongo. So, if the case is that Luongo will push Brodeur for being the best all-time, the same could be said for King Henrik. After all, he won a Gold Medal at the Olympics too, and at 27 years of age is three years younger than Roberto. So he should not be counted out of the race.
One thing that may be flawed with the info I have given is the teams that they are on, and at the era of hockey at which they occured. Brodeur was the star goaltender who reaped the benefits of the trap style, Luongo is a star of the trap and post-lockout, and Lundy is the post-lockout version of a star NHL goaltender.
But to be fair to my data, here is a synopsis of the teams that these goaltenders played on for those four years.
quote:
Brodeur's Devils from 93-94 to 96-97
- Had winning records all four seasons
- Won seven playoff series in that span
- Did not qualify for the playoffs once (95-96)
- Won President's Trpphy Once
- Won one Stanley Cup
- Won one Prince of Wales Trophy
Luongo's Panthers from 00-01 to 03-04
- Did not qualify for the playoffs any of those seasons
- Had a losing record each year
Lundqvist's Rangers from 05-06 to 08-09
- Had a winning record each season
- Never won a playoff series
Obviously we can see Brodeur played on much more privileged teams, which ultimately makes his numbers seem better. But if you look at Henrik Lundqvist's numbers in comparison, they are almost the same.
I think it comes down to this. Had Luongo or Lundqvist played on the Devils from 93-94 to 96-97 would they have benefited from playing on those teams? Would their numbers be better than Brodeur's?
Considering Brodeur was one the first team to effectively and consistently use the trap to success (and have arguably the toughest defense corps in league history for that era) I would say that it is without question the argument would be very different. But if I had to pick a goaltender to play for me today, I'd put the three names into a hat and pick.
With those three, how could you go wrong? |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 16:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
Luongo is a top goaltender in the league today. That cannot be debateable. Now as to the Brodeur/Luongo debate, that can. Obviously the two have played on very different teams, with Luongo being on more defensively-lacking teams while Brodeur has been the typical model of perfection in the trap styling of the Devils. I don't have to repeat all of what Beans and Leigh said, as I agree 100% with them, so really the top choice is all a matter of preference and opinion.
I'd like to bring in another goaltender into the mix for having a case as being the best. People really tend to disregard Henrik Lundqvist as the best goaltender in the league, or at the least they acknowledge he is a top five goalie. But if you compare the stats of Lundy with Luongo and Brodeur you will see striking similarities.
quote:
Brodeur Through Four Seasons:
231 Games, 117 - 66 - 39(.506 Win%) Average GAA = 2.27 Average SV% = 0.914
Luongo Through Four Seasons:
243 Games, 73 - 124 - 32(.300 Win%) Average GAA = 2.59 Average SV% = 0.921
Lundqvist Through Four Seasons:
265 Games, 142 - 83 - 0(.536 Win%) Average GAA = 2.31 Average SV% = 0.917
Besides the win%, which is clearly in Lundqvist's favor, the rest is very similar to that of Brodeur and Luongo. So, if the case is that Luongo will push Brodeur for being the best all-time, the same could be said for King Henrik. After all, he won a Gold Medal at the Olympics too, and at 27 years of age is three years younger than Roberto. So he should not be counted out of the race.
One thing that may be flawed with the info I have given is the teams that they are on, and at the era of hockey at which they occured. Brodeur was the star goaltender who reaped the benefits of the trap style, Luongo is a star of the trap and post-lockout, and Lundy is the post-lockout version of a star NHL goaltender.
But to be fair to my data, here is a synopsis of the teams that these goaltenders played on for those four years.
quote:
Brodeur's Devils from 93-94 to 96-97
- Had winning records all four seasons
- Won seven playoff series in that span
- Did not qualify for the playoffs once (95-96)
- Won President's Trpphy Once
- Won one Stanley Cup
- Won one Prince of Wales Trophy
Luongo's Panthers from 00-01 to 03-04
- Did not qualify for the playoffs any of those seasons
- Had a losing record each year
Lundqvist's Rangers from 05-06 to 08-09
- Had a winning record each season
- Never won a playoff series
Obviously we can see Brodeur played on much more privileged teams, which ultimately makes his numbers seem better. But if you look at Henrik Lundqvist's numbers in comparison, they are almost the same.
I think it comes down to this. Had Luongo or Lundqvist played on the Devils from 93-94 to 96-97 would they have benefited from playing on those teams? Would their numbers be better than Brodeur's?
Considering Brodeur was one the first team to effectively and consistently use the trap to success (and have arguably the toughest defense corps in league history for that era) I would say that it is without question the argument would be very different. But if I had to pick a goaltender to play for me today, I'd put the three names into a hat and pick.
With those three, how could you go wrong?
Another Leaf's fan with a solid, unbiased opinion. Whats this world coming to? I agree that Luongo, Lundqvist and Brodeur are the top 3 goalies in the league today. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 17:37:22
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leafsfan_101....
Excellent post! Totally agree that these guys are the top 3 right now. Obviously if you were starting a team and picking right now, no one would consider Brodeur at his age and Mason and Ward and guys like that would get some votes but if it were for this year and this year only, those guys would have to get 99% of the votes.
I agree with you that it's really not debatable. If someone chose someone other than those three (for just this season), they'd have to have their head checked..... |
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Guest4944
( )
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Posted - 09/04/2009 : 22:31:10
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| Luongo has years left in the NHL and brodeur is always on high defence teams so the shots are not as good as the ones on luongo and about the comment where luongo only consistant thing on team henrik sedin is very consistant but his brother who has Malkin worthy games and then kesler worthy games is not as consistant so if daniel can shoot the puck well consistantly henrik would have way more assists |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 00:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4944
Luongo has years left in the NHL and brodeur is always on high defence teams so the shots are not as good as the ones on luongo and about the comment where luongo only consistant thing on team henrik sedin is very consistant but his brother who has Malkin worthy games and then kesler worthy games is not as consistant so if daniel can shoot the puck well consistantly henrik would have way more assists
Oh my lord........i've just read that 4 times and still BARELY understand it! I sincerely hope English is not your first language! That's deplorable........ |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 04:16:49
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i always say it but by god i'm probaly the only person in the hockey world that thinks it Brodeur Today as in over the past 4 years (i know he has won a vezina in those years) has not been a top 5 goalie in the league, and i don't care what anyone says he isn't i watch a lot of hockey and if i had to win one game tomorow and i got to chose any active goalie Brodeur nor Luongo are not my choices Brodeur is maybe top 4 or 3 on my all time list,, he is not that good,, Scott Clemenson a career backup put up the same numbers with that team that team does not need a goalie to win
Pasty |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 08:36:07
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Just to be clear, by top goalie, I meant the best and Luongo in my opinion is no the best, he's not even top 2. I put Lundqvist above him as I feel he is a more accomplished goalie already. He has won an Olympic gold and led a bad Rangers team to the playoffs more than once. He in fact almost stole an entire series away from Ovechkin and the Capitals. I'm pretty sure Lundqvist did win a playoff series though, when the Rangers beat the Thrashers whenever that was.
Colin Wilson- The future |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 09:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
i always say it but by god i'm probaly the only person in the hockey world that thinks it Brodeur Today as in over the past 4 years (i know he has won a vezina in those years) has not been a top 5 goalie in the league, and i don't care what anyone says he isn't i watch a lot of hockey and if i had to win one game tomorow and i got to chose any active goalie Brodeur nor Luongo are not my choices Brodeur is maybe top 4 or 3 on my all time list,, he is not that good,, Scott Clemenson a career backup put up the same numbers with that team that team does not need a goalie to win
Pasty
Laughable. I mean, please. Clemmenson?? He his a hot streak. The same thing happened to Conklin a few years ago when Fleury was injured. Goalies his hot streaks all the time. But rarely do they last.
Acually, sometimes they do. Sometimes a goalie will play 12 of 13 years with more then 65 games and 11 of 13 years playing 70 or more games. In those years same 13 years, some really bad goalies will have a worst performance of 34 wins. Again, that's worst. More than 1/2 of those seasons were more the 40 wins.
Sure, one could argue that Brodeur's teams were good and that gave him more wins. But what is the reason his save percentage has never been lower than .906 and his GAA has never been higher than 2.57??? Oh, right. It's because his teams are so good, right???
And the last 4 years??? Hmm. Two of the three highest totals in games played, wins, minutes played, and save percentage came in the last 4 seasons. This includes the last season he played on 31 games. His highest shutout total also came in the past 4 years. This all on a team that never made it out of the Conference Semi's.
Brodeur's best season came on arguably the worst teams he's played on.
I seriously believe that some of us are watching a totally different sport than others when things like this are said.. |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2009 : 09:45:40
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Honestly I feel the worse the goalie the better the team. I'll make this short and to the point. When you're used to having Brodeur in net, you don't have to be as tightly set up defensively. With Clemmenson in net, the defense becomes much tighter and players start trying harder. The whole needs to be better.
Colin Wilson- The future |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2009 : 16:46:04
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Beans you said it. I was reading through and thinking will somebody point out that Brodeur's best REGULAR seasons were in the past few years, after Stevens retired and Niedermayer left.
Sure the Devils were a great team, but the goalie is a major part in success. So Brodeur brought a lot to the team and he's a big reason why the Devils are a threat year after year. Especially lately, since the lockout.
And as for Luongo he's a top goalie (probably not number one because he still have to prove) But top 3 in my mind and top 5 at least for anybody else who watches him play.
For the Olympic I hope Brodeur represent Canada because he's consistent and sure knows how to win. He gets the job done. |
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Guest9799
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Posted - 09/08/2009 : 15:26:26
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| I have to say, I agree with Nashvillepreds on this one. Luongo is good, but he's no Brodeur. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 16:21:39
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Stats Stats Stats hows this for a stat Brodeur in the last 5 years has been miserable in the playoffs,,, i am sorry but i watch a lot of devils games i get paid 35 $'s an hour to coach goaltending and i gurantee you there are at least 8 goalies i the league right now that would have the same numbers playing for the devils teams brodeur has played for, watch him play sure he is a top goalie in the NHL but never in his Career has he been best in the league!
Pasty |
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Guest9686
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Posted - 09/08/2009 : 19:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
... brodeur has played for, watch him play sure he is a top goalie in the NHL but never in his Career has he been best in the league!
huh? I'm confused. Top but not best. Ok, then, he's first but not number 1. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 21:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9686
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
... brodeur has played for, watch him play sure he is a top goalie in the NHL but never in his Career has he been best in the league!
huh? I'm confused. Top but not best. Ok, then, he's first but not number 1.
Lemme explain what Pasty was saying (at least as i interpret it).
".....sure he is A top goalie in the NHL.....:
Translation = He's one of the top (say maybe top 5?) Not THE top.
I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure that's all he was saying? But i'm sure he'll clarify..... |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 05:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9686
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
... brodeur has played for, watch him play sure he is a top goalie in the NHL but never in his Career has he been best in the league!
huh? I'm confused. Top but not best. Ok, then, he's first but not number 1.
Lemme explain what Pasty was saying (at least as i interpret it).
".....sure he is A top goalie in the NHL.....:
Translation = He's one of the top (say maybe top 5?) Not THE top.
I could be wrong, but i'm pretty sure that's all he was saying? But i'm sure he'll clarify.....
thank you sir
Pasty |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 08:53:34
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Pasty, how in the flippin' world can you say that when he owns, and will own most of the major records for goalies???
He makes his defence better, make no mistake about that. When you have a goalie who is off the charts consistent as Brodeur has been his whole career, thta does nothing but instills confidence and lifts the whole team.
But bottom line, and this coming from a huge Roy fan, the numbers bear out that he was at least at one point, and for a number of years, the best goalie of all time.
There is just no arguing otherwise.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 11:01:06
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Here's the thing, there is this award that is given out every year. It's called the Vezina. It's given to the goalie viewed by the 30 GM's in the league to be the best in the NHL. Broduer won the award 4 of the last 6 seasons. He has also been name the 1st Team All Star Goalie (meaning the best in the league) 3 times in the past 6 seasons and the 2nd Team All Star Goalie 4 other times in the past 12 years. This one is given by professional sports writers.
With all due respect, I take the opinions of the 30 NHL GM's and Professional Sports writers over pretty much everyone. It's not a fluke that so many people rank Broduer so high.
I would bet substantial sums of money that if a poll was done today of the 30 GM's in the NHL and asked who the would pick as their #1 goalie today, Brodeur and Luongo would be #1 and #2 on virtually all of those lists. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 18:28:28
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Well Luongo is cold again; still consider him and Brodeur the best though, you will always get from them every year. Nabby is up there too |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 19:37:05
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I often wonder why every debate about "who is better" or "who is the best player" or "who is the best goaltender" turns in to a debate of who played on the better team.
Sure, factoring in a player/goaltenders team has some impact on their overall success and accomplishments, but perhaps not as much as we all like to debate.
Brodeur is the greatest goaltender to play in the National Hockey League, all time. (Roy is close by, at 2nd)
Current, i'd place Brodeur at first of course... and Luongo would certainly be in the top five, but i'm unsure i'd place him at number two without some debate (with my self) along side of guys like Lundqvist, Backstrom and perhaps even Bryzgalov (who, i've liked since his start in Anaheim.)
Brodeur has played along side some solid New Jersey teams, but part of their success, a big part, is due to their goaltending. :)
Irvine/prez. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 20:08:39
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| Irv, the prob with your theory is this, we may not know if there's a better goalie if he never plays on a good team. Yes, a goalie can def improve a team, but to get the stats that guys like Brodeur and Roy have, they have had to play on good/great teams! What if Luongo stayed in Florida and finished his career there? What if he had a stellar save percentage, let's say the best ever, and a very very good GAA for his career but never won anything except for maybe a series or two? The prob is, there's no telling how well he'd have fared on a good/great team? I know it's all about "what if's" but sadly, that's the way it is. Would Brodeur have brought Montreal a cup in 86 and/or 93? We will never know. What i think i do know is that i will never call the greatest goalie one without at least a cup and prob multiple cups! |
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Guest9348
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Posted - 03/27/2010 : 10:22:43
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Luongo just won the gold medal, Brodeur was dismal. We'll see if Luongo can silence the critics if the Canucks win the cup this year. As far as the top 1 and 2 goalies in the league, I'd say Ryan Miller needs to be up in the top 2, along with Luongo. Miller has been hurt the past couple years and people tend to forget his elite play. Yes...Brodeur has almost every single record for a goalie, and statistically is the best goalie to ever play the game, not to undermine Brodeur, but he played in a defensive system which helped a lot.
But this argument is not about who is the best all-time, it's about who is the best right now...and since Luongo won an Olympic gold...should give him the right for the number 1 spot and Miller number 2. |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 03/27/2010 : 16:35:33
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| good to know winning a gold medal makes you the best player in the world |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 21:43:06
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quote:
good to know winning a gold medal makes you the best player in the world
doesn't it? Or is there a prize higher than gold medal?
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 00:55:00
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Luongo wasn't incredibly impressive in the Olympics. Solid, yes, but definitely didn't outright steal any games for Canada either. Winning a gold medal means your team won a mini-tournament of all-star calibre players. However, it is hardly the be-all and end all for judging a player's effectiveness. For goalies especially, nothing compares to the grind of the NHL playoffs, with its seven-game series and up to 4 rounds to judge that.
Brodeur has compiled the most consistent and statistically impressive resume of any who have played his position. Until Bobby Lou comes up big for his team when it matters the most, he will always be a distant #2. A gold medal is great, but most Canucks fans still smell the remnants of the stinkbomb he delivered vs. Chicago in game 7 last year.
Also, if I was the GM of a team and could pick any goalie for my franchise I would pick Miller or Lundqvist over Luongo (Brodeur's too old now would want a younger goalie). If it was for one season only I'd obviously go with Marty. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:28:00
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Huge, I agree with you (my post above was more tongue in cheek). Luongo looked good in the olympics for some stretches, but ultimately looked more nervous than comfortable, esp in the last game. Like most of Canada's goalies at these tournaments, his job is not to win games, but rather to not lose them, and he did his job. Brodeur did not.
As for your GM comment, do you care to elaborate - why would you take Miller or Lundqvist over Luongo? Stats are pretty consistent between the 3 of them in the regular season over the last 3 years. Miller has gone to the conference finals twice as a goalie, however I would argue that he did it on one of the most offensively gifted teams assembled in the past 10 years, and still they could not get it done. Neither Lundqvist or Luongo has gone past the second round.
All 3 are good goalies. I would take Luongo over the other two because of price. His cap hit is 5.25m/year for life. Miller is hitting at just over 6 until 13/14, and Lundqvist is at 6.85 until 15/16. |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:50:30
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| True, if you factor in cap hits then I would probably edge towards Luongo. In my 'fantasy' as a gm, none would have contracts though so that wasn't factored in. Why would I pick those two over Luongo? Personal preference, really. I think they have the ability to be better, and that's not necessarily based on anything. There is also murmurs about Luongo being a not-so nice dressing room presence. So I wouldn't take the chance if contracts were irrelevant. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 11:25:07
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quote:
There is also murmurs about Luongo being a not-so nice dressing room presence
I've heard similar rumblings - I wonder if the burden of being captain has been too much for him. Goalies are usually odd personalities to begin with - it takes a different mindset to want to stand in front of pucks instead of shooting the. To put the additional spotlight and requirement of team captain might not have been a good move by Gillis, perhaps it has affected his game more than either will care to admit.
My gut tells me that they have wondered the same thing, and I would not be surprised if Luongo and Gillis came to a mutual agreement to give the C to someone else next season. That might allow Luongo to concentrate on actual goaltending again. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:58:27
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It's not like Luongo has had to do anything at captain. There is a rule that says if the goalie is captain the team has to appoint one of the assists to be the contact to the ref. Back in the day when the goalie was captain they would take periodic 'breaks' to go and talk to the refs to the NHL put in a rule to avoid that.
Luongo as the captain has zero bearing on his play or anything else.
However, if he is less than a stellar team mate, that actually speaks volumes. Although I agree that goalies are often weird fella's to begin with, they have to own the dressing room to the certain degree. There has to be the feeling of the players having the goalies back and definately the goalie having the players back.
That might say why the Canucks have had a good enough team to do better than the 2nd round of the playoffs for the past few seasons. |
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Topic |
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Is Luongo Really a Top Goalie?? 
