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 Can the Sedins bring the 'Nucks the Cup? Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  04:59:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
All throughout their career, whether it was because of their clean cut image, the constant referencing as a pair, or maybe because they are European - but the twins have been constantly questioned as to their ability to be the guys to take a team on their backs.

Can Henrik and Daniel Sedin lead the Canucks, through their on-ice leadership and strong, superstar playing, all the way to Lord Stanley's Cup?

(Remember, the question is CAN they, not will they)

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Choices:

Definitely, YES.
Probably, if they pick it up a notch in the playoffs this year.
Don''t think so, but they''ll still perform well and there''''''''s always Luongo.
NO, the Sedins are flops.

(Anonymous Vote)

Edited by - slozo on 09/08/2009 05:03:09

slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  05:06:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Please note admin: I have tried to edit the double and triple apostrophes, and some glitch keeps adding more instead.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  07:37:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's the thing with the Sedins. They are brilliantly gifted offensive players. They also have the advantage of having played together their whole lives. Some may even believe they have some kind of brotherly telepathy and they know where each other is without looking.

That being said, I don't see them as guys that take over a game let alone carry a team on their back. I mean look at last playoffs. Sure, they had a PPG, but did they really own a game?? Was there a game where they literally took over and won a game they should have lost??

They just don't have that something special that makes it impossible for the other team to win. I have not seen it to this point.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  08:11:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I chose "don't think so....". While technically they "CAN" would prob be correct if you look at it as "anything's possible", i don't think they're the type to completely carry a team. I do think they're good enough to be front line players, i think their in that second tier of front line guys. I don't see them changing a game the way the Ovechkin's, Crosby's, Malkin's do. Maybe a game here, game there, but prob not an entire series let alone, two or three along the way. I still think they're good enough to be a part of a team that can win.

I look back to the Canucks of 94. We had Bure. HE was a game breaker and always a threat to score. However, it was Linden who really deserves credit for his performance in those playoffs. Again, the team performed well as a whole, but he stepped up his game moreso than anyone else. I think for the Canucks to have a run like that again, it'd take solid contribution from the Sedins, but moreso a huge step up from someone like Kesler to help carry them to the final and win it.

Just using Kesler as an example here. He's the kind of guy who could put a 55-60 pt season up, but would need to turn that into a ppg playoff run, or at least contribute a bunch of key goals and inspired play to help the club along.....

The Canucks, IMO, would need a Claude Lemieux-like playoff run from one of their second liners to help the Sedins out.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  08:17:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So Beans - does that mean you think that they can lead the Canucks to the Stanley cup if they pick up their play a bit, alongside a brilliant Luongo? Or, do you think Vancouver needs other scoring and playmaking leaders at the helm to steer them to the promised land, and that with the Sedins it could never happen?

Myself, I think they could do it, even at the same level they were at last playoffs. With a great Luongo and a solid defence and some key secondary players, I think Vancouver has all the tools to be a contender. They were two bad periods away from a second round win, after all.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  08:24:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo...that's why i said they'd need some help, but really, if they won the cup, and both Sedin's had let's say 25 points in 23 games, would they have "carried" the team? It's a very arbitrary word really isn't it? "Can the Sedin's bring the 'Nucks the Cup?" is difficult to answer. Can the Canucks win with the Sedin's as their top line? That's an easy YES in my book but i took it as can they carry the team?
Looks like i misinterpretted the initial post and kinda mixed it in with Bean's opinion that they're not the type to "carry" or "put a team on their back"......

So, yeah, i'd say they can "lead" the Canucks to a cup.....
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  10:37:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Alex116, I think we're on the same page.
Maybe the misunderstanding arises from the fact that I used the phrase "take a team on their backs" . . . but really, I was talking about them being the clear cut offensive leaders while playing a solid two-way game for their team.

It is subjective, of course. Even with the Sedins being PPG players and no one yet really at their level offensively on the Canucks, and carrying that play over into the playoffs - you'd think the team only had Roberto Luongo playing well and leading them.

I say that they get better and better with more playoff experience . . . they are just entering their prime.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  11:37:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To answer your question Slozo, I don't think that Vancouver needs any other offensive support to improve the Sedins play. I just don't think they have that 'it' factor to win a game when they need to. Regular season or playoffs, I have not seen that out of them. They are great players in the first 2 periods. Give them a 2 goal lead going into the 3rd and they won't drop it. But, we all know playoff hockey doesn't work that way. The Sedin's have never been the kind of players that will look like they will win the game when down a goal at the start of the 3rd or win the game if tie with 5 minutes left.


And I agree that they are coming into their prime. The next 3-5 years should be their best. However, after 8 NHL season, and 6 play off seasons(I mistakenly said they had 7 playoffs before, one was in Sweden) they should have at least shown a GLIMPSE of being those clutch, win at all cost kind of players. As an Edmonton fan, and living in Edmonton, I get a lot of Vancouver games both against Edmonton and against other teams (gotta love that RSN Pacific). In the crunch, they have been far more likely to disappear on the ice than to step up and produce when it counts. I have seen it time and again where the Sedins disappear in the 3rd period.


The other part of this is that they are considered in most every sitaution as a pair. They do most everything togther, including not stepping up. Rarely does one have a great game and the other a not so great game. I know they always play together, but it's not uncommon for other duos in the NHL to play most of their time together and one will slump while the other does not. St. Louis and Lecavalier last year is a perfect example.When it comes down to it, I would rather not go into the playoffs with the twins. Firstly, they have never stepped up and should have by now. Secondly, they play in a pair, both good and bad.
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redneck76ca
Rookie



186 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  16:51:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

To answer your question Slozo, I don't think that Vancouver needs any other offensive support to improve the Sedins play. I just don't think they have that 'it' factor to win a game when they need to. Regular season or playoffs, I have not seen that out of them. They are great players in the first 2 periods. Give them a 2 goal lead going into the 3rd and they won't drop it. But, we all know playoff hockey doesn't work that way. The Sedin's have never been the kind of players that will look like they will win the game when down a goal at the start of the 3rd or win the game if tie with 5 minutes left.


And I agree that they are coming into their prime. The next 3-5 years should be their best. However, after 8 NHL season, and 6 play off seasons(I mistakenly said they had 7 playoffs before, one was in Sweden) they should have at least shown a GLIMPSE of being those clutch, win at all cost kind of players. As an Edmonton fan, and living in Edmonton, I get a lot of Vancouver games both against Edmonton and against other teams (gotta love that RSN Pacific). In the crunch, they have been far more likely to disappear on the ice than to step up and produce when it counts. I have seen it time and again where the Sedins disappear in the 3rd period.


The other part of this is that they are considered in most every sitaution as a pair. They do most everything togther, including not stepping up. Rarely does one have a great game and the other a not so great game. I know they always play together, but it's not uncommon for other duos in the NHL to play most of their time together and one will slump while the other does not. St. Louis and Lecavalier last year is a perfect example.When it comes down to it, I would rather not go into the playoffs with the twins. Firstly, they have never stepped up and should have by now. Secondly, they play in a pair, both good and bad.


The Sedins were second line players for most of their playoff appearances. Its hard to think that second line players can be expected to put up a PT/GM.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  19:01:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was just about to bring that up, Redneck.

Hasn't it just been the last two years with the Sedins leading the offensive way? Before that, say, 2005, you had Naslund, Bertuzzi, and Anson Carter led with 33 goals. The Sedins were top 4 in scoring for the team, but they were line 1b at the time. Then in 2006 the Sedins played with an aging Naslund, and they had their best year, playing with a diminished superstar. Morrison took a 20 point dive on the second line.

But, that being said, maybe they don't have the tenacity and skill, the "it" factor, to win a game in the third. I think they are slower developing players though, and I give them next year to be the surprise team alongside your Detroit, Chicago, Anaheim and Calgary. In the playoffs, that is.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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redneck76ca
Rookie



186 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  19:16:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I was just about to bring that up, Redneck.

Hasn't it just been the last two years with the Sedins leading the offensive way? Before that, say, 2005, you had Naslund, Bertuzzi, and Anson Carter led with 33 goals. The Sedins were top 4 in scoring for the team, but they were line 1b at the time. Then in 2006 the Sedins played with an aging Naslund, and they had their best year, playing with a diminished superstar. Morrison took a 20 point dive on the second line.

But, that being said, maybe they don't have the tenacity and skill, the "it" factor, to win a game in the third. I think they are slower developing players though, and I give them next year to be the surprise team alongside your Detroit, Chicago, Anaheim and Calgary. In the playoffs, that is.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug


There have only been two years that the Sedins that have made the playoffs as the number one line. They have 14 points and 15 points in 22 games. The first year they floundered with an aging Naslund putting up a total of 9 pts between them in 12 games. Last year, with a year under their belts as the number one line, they both had 4G 6A in ten playoff games. In my mind, they aren't flops at all. They have only been in that role twice, learned from the first experience and improved the second time they made the playoffs as the go to girls. I mean guys.

I'd also like to point out that they will only start making their 6+million this year. They put up 14 and 15 points in 22 games as 3.25 million dollar players.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  21:32:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Redneck / Slozo.....That's the EXACT argument i was using in the "Sundin to play?" thread when the discussion turned to the twins. Slozo, i was under the impression that's what led to this thread as that one was getting so off topic!

quote:
Beans, there's a reason i said in my post that the twins "Still haven't completely proven themselves" From what you said, a top line guy should be at or close to a ppg guy in the playoffs? I would agree (if this isn't what you're saying, forgive me, but that's how i interpret it). Here's the thing though, as "$6 million a year 1st line players", they've yet to have a chance to prove themselves. Don't get me wrong, i know where you're going with this but realisticly, these guys only became the go to line once Nazzy was gone or maybe in his last season as a Canuck.

Their first 4 years in the playoffs, they weren't far off what they'd done in the regular season. Look at their stats if you wanna see what i mean. The big problem with them was that they were very slow to develop as players. Since they became the go to line, they've only been in the playoffs twice. They struggled in a big way three years ago (last time they were in the playoffs) and then put up a ppg pace this past time around? Yeah, there were rumours they were both extremely sick (excuses?) in the 07 playoffs, but regardless, they didn't perform. So, really they had one pretty poor playoff, sick or not, and one pretty good one? If you wanna consider what they did in their first 4 years as playoff players, then you really should consider what was expected of them? If anyone expected them to do better in the playoffs than the regular season, well, that's not very realistic.

Overall, yes, i agree they still have to prove themselves for more than just two series. However, flops imo, still seems a little strong. If nothing else, i'd consider them flops for not leading their team to at least the conference finals but again, keep in mind how long they've been "THE GUYS" here. Look at Datsyuk or Lecavalier's stats for the playoffs. The differences are that they've both won a cup (Datsyuk 2) but they've also been the prime time guys on their teams for a lot longer than the Sedins. Really if you look at Vinny's numbers, they're not too impressive. Take away his one cup (where he wasn't even the big man on campus thanks to Brad Richards' year) and he hasn't really done a whole lot. Flop?

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  06:42:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that the Sedin's were the 1st line forwards in the past 2 playoff seasons they played, that still doesn't explain why their production drops by so much in the playoffs. I mean sure, less give them their first few seasons to "learn" how to win, play, and produce at the NHL level.Hell, let's give them 4 years. That's over 300 reg season games and 30 playoff games.

So, let's look at this.

Henrik Sedin

05/06 - 75 pts in 82 reg games - Missed Playoffs
06/07 - 81 pts in 82 reg games - 4 pts in 12 playoffs games
07/08 - 76 pts in 82 reg games - Missed Playoffs
08/09 - 82 pts in 82 reg games - 10 pts in 10 playoff games


Daniel Sedin

05/06 - 71 pts in 82 reg games - Missed Playoffs
06/07 - 84 pts in 81 reg games - 5 pts in 12 playoffs games
07/08 - 74 pts in 82 reg games - Missed Playoffs
08/09 - 82 pts in 82 reg games - 10 pts in 10 playoff games



Their performance is virtually identical. Only 1/2 the time the team made the playoffs and specifically looking at 06/07, the were both PPG players in the reg season and dropped by 1/2 in the playoffs.

I can agree that they can change their current stigma. However, consider it this way. If they were both to retire and become fishermen in Sweden, would you not agree their performance in the playoffs is not nearly as good as their performance in the reg season and they don't have that clutch factor in being able to lead a team to victory??

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  06:46:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And Redneck, let's add to that "flop" of a year where the Sedins got beat out by . . . Anaheim, 2006/07 season playoffs, oh - that's right, that's the year Anaheim won the cup, no? So Vancouver got beat by the Stanley Cup champs, no shame in that . . . and Luongo played off his head, but Giggy was better.

Does no one remember the very first playoff game that the Sedins played as the #1 line? I mean, I came upon this in my research, as I am not a Canucks fan, but c'mon you westies! Such short memories!

Game 1 - Vancouver vs Dallas
4OT - game winning goal: Henrik Sedin, from his twin brother Daniel, at the 18:06 mark of the fourth overtime.

Game 7 - Vancouver vs Dallas
After 2 straight shutouts by Turco to give him three for the series, The Dallas Stars dominated the first period and had a 1-0 lead in the 7th game, all momentum going their way with the hottest goalie in the world at that moment in net. Who changed the game? Oh yeah, that would be Henrik Sedin scoring the Canucks first goal in three games, an absolutely HUGE mental lift, and from their on the Canucks dominated, with Linden scoring at 7:00 into the third and there were two empty net goals afterward to make the score totally unreflective of the game.

So far, that's two huge goals for Henrik Sedin, with his brother assisting on both I believe.

Then, they moved on after that emotional and long series to meet Anaheim, the eventual cup winners. The Ducks were big, physical, and had the best D in the league, and Vancouver only won the second game, although every game but the first was very, very close. The Sedins were physically pushed around at times, and the D was just too good.

SUMMARY FOR THE PLAYOFF YEAR
The Canucks met two very, very defensive teams, and won one close series (while getting shut out three times!) and lost to the cup winners with the best and toughest defence. Top scorers for the Canucks:
Ohlund 2g 5a 7pts
Linden 2g 5a 7pts
Naslund 4g 1a 5pts
D.Sedin 2g 3a 5pts
Morrison 1g 3a 4pts
H. Sedin 2g 2a 4pts

I cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, call that playoffs a "flop" for the Sedins. And I certainly can't call last year's playoffs anywhere close to a flop for them either.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  09:11:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo, this "westy" recalls that playoff year very well. I didn't bring it up too much because the 'Nucks got shut out so many times in that first round! Turco was playing unbelievably, but your go to guys are still expected to find ways to win (right Beans?). He (Turco), obviously had a huge part to do with the twins lack of scoring that year. Couple that with the flu they had (yeah, excuses, excuses, i know) and that's likely why they didn't fare well. Oh, and throw in the fact that there was pretty much ZERO as far as secondary scoring, and the other teams had an easier time keying on these guys!

Still, i maintain, they need to take another step forward and prove last year's playoffs weren't a fluke. If they can take this team deep and continue to put up the points, even Beans will remove the flop label i'm sure!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  11:18:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never said I would always think they are playoff flops. If the continue to do what they did last year in terms of playoff performance, than of course they won't be flops. But the still may not be winners.

I am talking only up to this point in thier careers. They have been PPG players for the past 4 regular season. They made the playoffs only 2 of those seasons and were PPG players in only one of those seasons. I mean please, I could make up excuses about who they played against, when the played against them, and whatever else but it's doesn't change the fact that the Sedins have not stepped up and taken over a series.

And let's do a little comparison to those who do not believe. Remember a while back when Redneck asked me if Horcoff and Hemsky are comparable to Sedins. Here's a thought.

In the 2006 Playoffs, Edmonton had their Cinderalla run to Game 7 in the Cup Final. Remember the teams that Edmonton beat to get there?? Detroit, President's Cup winner. San Jose and then next season Cup Winners Anaheim. I think we can all agree that these were not only some of the best teams in the league at the time but also some of the best goalies as well.

Horcoff and Hemsky had a combined 17 games of playoff experience prior to that Cup run. What did they do?? Firstly, the produced the same or more offensively than they did in the regular season, combining for 36 points in 24 games. More importantly, they won. They helped their team win games they were not supposed to win. They each had 2 Game Winning goals in those 24 games good for a tie for 2nd on the team. The Sedins, combined, have 3 playoff game winning goals. 3 in 106 combined games. Last year, easily their best playoff performance, they had a 0 game winning goals between them. None.


Look, I am not trying to say that Horcoff and Hemsky are better players. I am just doing a comparison. Up until now, the Sedin's have not produced in the playoffs as well as they have in the reg season and the definately have not stepped up and won when they needed to. Maybe that will change, but I have not seen any indication that it will. They are not anywhere near my 1st choice if I am going into the playoffs today. I don't even think they would be in my top 10!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  11:42:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To the topic can the sedins bring the 'nucks the cup?

Are the volunteering at Tim Hortons. Cause thats the closest cup there gonna serve Canuck fans this year.
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redneck76ca
Rookie



186 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  05:25:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

To the topic can the sedins bring the 'nucks the cup?

Are the volunteering at Tim Hortons. Cause thats the closest cup there gonna serve Canuck fans this year.


I guess that Spezza and Alfie won't even be lucky enough to volunteer at Tim Hortons then.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  10:43:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

To the topic can the sedins bring the 'nucks the cup?

Are the volunteering at Tim Hortons. Cause thats the closest cup there gonna serve Canuck fans this year.


I guess that Spezza and Alfie won't even be lucky enough to volunteer at Tim Hortons then.




Zing!!!!


Hey, I think they can all work at Tim Horton's. Unless you name is Sid or Alexander, they can all get their Cups at Tim's.

As long as it's not a Timmy's that went into bankrupcy and was relocated across the street from another Timmy's by a maverick billionairre livng his dream of owning a Timmy's in his own 'hood.

That just wouldn't be right.

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  11:41:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
As long as it's not a Timmy's that went into bankrupcy and was relocated across the street from another Timmy's by a maverick billionairre livng his dream of owning a Timmy's in his own 'hood.

That just wouldn't be right.


Unless, of course, the Timmy's you relocated right next to was far and away the most successful Timmy's ever, and while overcharging their customers double the price for old coffee they were still the most successful, because the huge local customer base worshipped coffee like no other people anywhere. And, on top of that, that super successful Timmy's had stopped any other franchise from getting near them, using their power as the most successful franchise, despite the fact that customers were clammering for it, and that studies had been done which showed another store right besides there would flourish, while taking almost nothing away from the most successful franchise.

Then, if a billionaire investor tried to force his way into the market which should have already had another Timmy's in that area long ago, and which should have never had the failing Timmy's kept in an area where they were losing money hand over fist in the first place because the Chairman of the board of Timmy's was a megalomaniac with all kinds of dirty deals going on - then, and only then, would it be ok Sid, Alexander and even Phil to get their coffees there.

Zzzzzzzzzzing!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest3341
( )

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  11:59:05  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

To the topic can the sedins bring the 'nucks the cup?

Are the volunteering at Tim Hortons. Cause thats the closest cup there gonna serve Canuck fans this year.


I guess that Spezza and Alfie won't even be lucky enough to volunteer at Tim Hortons then.

Nah. Spezza and Alfie would mess my order up.
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redneck76ca
Rookie



186 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  13:15:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest3341

quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

To the topic can the sedins bring the 'nucks the cup?

Are the volunteering at Tim Hortons. Cause thats the closest cup there gonna serve Canuck fans this year.


I guess that Spezza and Alfie won't even be lucky enough to volunteer at Tim Hortons then.

Nah. Spezza and Alfie would mess my order up.


Yah, if you ordered a large double double from Spezza and Alfie you'd end up with a weak green tea and then Heatley would cry about how he wanted to be working at Starbucks!
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Guest3341
( )

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  16:03:23  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca

quote:
Originally posted by Guest3341

quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

To the topic can the sedins bring the 'nucks the cup?

Are the volunteering at Tim Hortons. Cause thats the closest cup there gonna serve Canuck fans this year.


I guess that Spezza and Alfie won't even be lucky enough to volunteer at Tim Hortons then.

Nah. Spezza and Alfie would mess my order up.


Yah, if you ordered a large double double from Spezza and Alfie you'd end up with a weak green tea and then Heatley would cry about how he wanted to be working at Starbucks!

I cant believe im encouraging this, but that is funny stuff!!!
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Guest6336
( )

Posted - 12/27/2009 :  03:45:08  Reply with Quote
So fa it does not seem that the twins have the leadership skills to put the team on their backs and win the cup. That being said, in the age of free agency the team could win the cup with a number 1 defenceman and a couple more forwards. It really wasn't the twins that let down the team last year, it was Luongo. Lets be honest, in the big games against the Hawks he was just plain bad.
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Guest6840
( )

Posted - 03/16/2010 :  21:57:25  Reply with Quote
It takes the whole team to win the Cup but i think the Sedin's will be a big part of it
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