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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
 Posted - 09/18/2009 : 14:17:47
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So what do you guys think on the hit??
And also do you have any update on Okposo? Is he gonna be allright? Any injuries?
Just curious.
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just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 14:29:55
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Just watched it again, Okposo's head was down. I initially thought Phaneuf left his feet but I don't think that was the case...
Keep your head up! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 14:41:41
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No idea how Okposo's feeling, but i'm guessing not so well 
As for the hit, imo, it was totally clean and within the rules. Now, as far as it being in exhibition, i could care less. Everyone's there for a reason, whether it be a rookie trying to make the team or a veteran simply tuning up / practicing for the upcoming season. It's not like Phaneuf can do something like that in a team scrimmage? Some say he's already an established player in the league and didn't need to do that. Well, sure, but if this were a rookie making that hit, would it then be okay? You can't give the okay to one guy and not the other! Throw in the fact that the next time Okposo plays Calgary, he'll be a lot more likely to be tentative. THAT, to me, is a bonus for Calgary and therefore Phaneuf simply helped his team.
I'm interested to hear other's reactions but no one's swaying mine here. Hockey is hockey, man's game b*tch!  |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 09/18/2009 : 15:28:21
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| well Phaneuf might be a Scott Stevens in hitting but he sure doesn't have the same balls as Stevens did to fight I guess it is pre season why fight then again why hit if you know your going to have to fight unless your a sally who is scared to drop the mitts. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 18:35:38
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Firstly, Okposo has a mild concussion and is questionable for the start of the season. It's unfortunate because the kid is pretty decent. Rookie season of
Here's the thing to me, there is no way that either guy in that situation know who the other is. It's not like Phaneuf was looking at this kid as no longer a rookie so he was hittable. He had his head down period, and Phaneuf is an equal opportunity hitter.
Now, I kinda do agree with the lighter hitting in pre-season. Phaneuf easily could have let up. He could have still put junior on his junk and definately proved his point. There is no doubt in my mind that Phaneuf put everything into that hit and there really wasn't any need for it. Hockey is a Man's game. But to be a man, you have to also have honor and respect. I don't have a problem with the hit. But Phaneuf could have let up. No doubt in my mind.
Now, the other side of this story is the kid who came over the boards and went after Phaneuf. Firstly, the Kids suspended indefinately. He won't be seeing any NHL ice anytime soon. And,this also raises another question. Has anyone else noticed that Phaneuf doesn't answer the bell after laying down a big hit?? Check out this article. Puts things in perspective pretty well.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Hard+hitting+Phaneuf+must+stand+checks/2009568/story.html |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 20:13:34
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I just watched the hit over and over again, many times, centering in on Phaneuf, then Okposo, and then on Phaneuf's feet, and then on how Phaneuf was skating up to the play.
I don't see the play as dirty at all, frankly. Phaneuf only saw the opportunity about two, maybe one and a half seconds before the hit, first off - it was no charge. Secondly, he does rise while hitting him so he leaves his feet a tiny a bit at the end, but nothing I would point out as above what is called as "clean". No elbow up, but obviously Okposo has his head down, and he is channelled a bit by the other Calgary D-man. Okposo just didn't have the hockey sense to see it coming, frankly, and he happened to receive badly what to me was a good hit, but not a "devastating" hit.
So, I call the hit pretty clean.
I almost buy Bean's argument about "he could have let up" because it is pre-season . . . but really, letting up anymore and he wouldn't have hit him, especially if the player had better hockey sense. This is what Phaneuf does . . . he is there for the hitting, the physical play. And I disagree with the "nothing to prove" argument about him being an established player - he is coming off a bad year, and DEFINITELY has something to prove this year, he wants to be put back up into the great young defenceman category, and he knows he has to pick it up. He certainly has something to prove this year, heck - it's the NHL, unless your name is Iginla on that team, you've got to prove yourself every year.
So, all told - clean hit, I have no problem with it at all. Keep yer head up Okposo!
Phaneuf not answering the bell is a totally different subject for a different thread . . . but really, if you are throwing legal checks, IMHO, you shouldn't have to fight, as fighting is technically NOT LEGAL. Again, a different topic for a different time.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 20:48:10
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Well, as far as the charging penalty. It's really close. I don't really argue the call but I wouldn't really argue if there was no call. I counted 3 strides towards Okposo before the hit. The one thing that I see is that Phaneuf had his stick away from his body, preparing for the hit about 4 or 5 strides whe Phaneuf was backtracking towards his blue line. Before he started towards Okposo.T hat might be the arguement. The other Calgary defender's stick is in front of him, in what appears to be a natural defensive position when a player is making a rush. Phaneuf's stick was off the ice, on the other side of his body than the hit was going to happen well before he even started towards Okposo.
As I said, stupid close. Really an either way thing. Normal speed, which is what the ref is watching, it really tough. Slo mo, as I said I counted 3 strides in the direction of the player, then the hit. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 21:30:45
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I hate Phaneuf so my initial reaction was "dirty hit". Having watched it again its not that bad. I wish the NHL would have a mandate similar to the OHL about head hits though. They should really take a look at the damage it does to hockey players' careers and more importantly their lives. I remember seeing Lafontaine on a program recently and him talking about how he is still not 100%. I just don't feel that with todays equipment and the size of the players that head hits should be allowed. I don't see how knocking someone out is a hockey play. Most of the time the hitter has a chance to target the shoulder or body but instead lays out a hit to the head.
Should a player be aware of his surroundings? Sure. Should a player keep his head up? Of course, it is his duty keep himself safe. Should a defensive player knock the f*** out of another player to remind him of the two previous statements. Emphatically, no. Its just not needed and isn't good for the game. I love physical hockey (although this season my team won't be stepping up) and I do think fighting is an important part of the game, but I just can't stand the head hits delivered by elbows or shoulder pads that are covered in bullet resistant plastic. Can you imagine the impact on the NHL and hockey,in general, if a player is killed on the ice due to a head hit? Its possible, and in some ways its surprising there have not been more serious injuries than we have already seen.
Habs 2 Sens 1
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 21:41:47
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Really great post Redneck. Exactly what I was trying to say. Phaneuf easily could have put this kid on his junk and taught him the lesson without putting him in the hospital.
I can appreciate that from time to time player will get hurt. Two guys colliding at high speeds, it's bound to happen. However, when a guy has the choice between hitting the hurting, I don't like seeing the hurting. It not needed.
And before everyone gets in on the guy doesn't have a chance to make that decision in the heat of battle, you are 100% correct. That decision should be made before the puck is even dropped. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 04:34:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Firstly, Okposo has a mild concussion and is questionable for the start of the season. It's unfortunate because the kid is pretty decent. Rookie season of
Here's the thing to me, there is no way that either guy in that situation know who the other is. It's not like Phaneuf was looking at this kid as no longer a rookie so he was hittable. He had his head down period, and Phaneuf is an equal opportunity hitter.
Now, I kinda do agree with the lighter hitting in pre-season. Phaneuf easily could have let up. He could have still put junior on his junk and definately proved his point. There is no doubt in my mind that Phaneuf put everything into that hit and there really wasn't any need for it. Hockey is a Man's game. But to be a man, you have to also have honor and respect. I don't have a problem with the hit. But Phaneuf could have let up. No doubt in my mind.
Now, the other side of this story is the kid who came over the boards and went after Phaneuf. Firstly, the Kids suspended indefinately. He won't be seeing any NHL ice anytime soon. And,this also raises another question. Has anyone else noticed that Phaneuf doesn't answer the bell after laying down a big hit?? Check out this article. Puts things in perspective pretty well.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Hard+hitting+Phaneuf+must+stand+checks/2009568/story.html
see hate a comment like that "Phaneuf doesn't answer the bell after laying down a big hit??" why the hell should he have to fight someone everyone just said it was a clean hit, Okposo had his head down why does phaneuf who played a clean hockey game have to drop the gloves to defend that? if you do your job and do it well do you have to stand up and defend that,,?? what he did was what he is supposed to do,, you want to drop with me so i break my hand and loose 4 months of hockey forget it come see me when i do something dirty
Pasty |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 06:45:02
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About the comment that the league should do something about hits to the head. I agree with elbows and sticks but this is already illegal.
About shoulder hits to the head it's really tough for the league to put this illegal and here's why. Especially with the charging rules where they make sure he doesn't leave his feat or he doesn't go full stride towards the player.
Hockey players can't tackle others and they can't hit with their chest unless they put their hands out front. And what's left is the shoulder so they hit with their shoulder and if the guy who's taking the hit has his head down well the shoulder will be towards the head. So does a player should be suspended because of the reckless play of another player. If the league steps up and says all right no more checking with the shoulder to the head and they would suspend like 20 games for something that Phaneuf did. Then we would have a bunch of players looking at the puck when they go across the blue line and the other team would have to let him go to the slot and take a good shot.
It's like trying to hip check somebody and he jumps to avoid the hit and then you canght him in the knees and blow up his knee. Or turning around at the last second when your against the board.
There's also the size difference. In the league we have players from 6 foot 9 (Chara) to 5 foot 5 (Gerbe). So of course sometimes the shoulder will be at the same level of their head.
I agree I really hate seeing a man like Okposo, Keith Primeau or Lafontaine going down. And I really hope Okposo is allright and this doesn't affect his career or his lifestyle.
And for the hit in peticular, Maybe he should have got two for charging, because it was borderline. And maybe he shouldn't have done the hit because it was pre season, against a non playoff team from the other conference. So Phaneuf's decision was not the best, but hitting is part of the NHL and this type of hit is legal and should stay that way. If Okposo would have kept his head up it would have been a shoulder to shoulder hit. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 08:55:57
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| Nice hit, no need in the preseason though. But man Fleury looked good eh? |
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Guest6147
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Posted - 09/19/2009 : 11:18:25
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If a player lays a clean hit on another player, there is no reason that he needs to fight.
Phaneuf is a valuable part of his team, and if every time he lays someone out he has to fight, thats 5-10 minutes of ice team he could be missing every game just to prove the point that he can hit and fight...
It's ridiculous now that the players go chasing after a guy after a clean hit is given. If the hit was questionable or dirty I'm all for it, but it's just annoying to have to see players who use their bodies effectively in the game have to answer the bell every time they hit someone. |
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Guest4629
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Posted - 09/19/2009 : 13:31:33
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| The hit was a clean shoulder check. Very clearly within the rules of the game. I'm sure that in a year or two when Okposa can remember it he'll agree. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2009 : 13:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...Now, I kinda do agree with the lighter hitting in pre-season. Phaneuf easily could have let up. He could have still put junior on his junk and definately proved his point. There is no doubt in my mind that Phaneuf put everything into that hit and there really wasn't any need for it. Hockey is a Man's game. But to be a man, you have to also have honor and respect. I don't have a problem with the hit. But Phaneuf could have let up. No doubt in my mind...
Can't agree with you here Beans. Preseason does not mean that you "let up". For all players the preseason is designed to let them get up to game speed and measure themselves against the competition. Whether you are a set-up man, a goal scorer, a digger, a fighter, or a hitter, the preseason is still part of your job. Would a goal scorer have to dial back his moves because it's preseason? Don't think so. In addition to getting your timing back it is also time to assert your spot on the team...or earn your spot on the team for many guys.
At the end of the day it comes down to personality, some guys are going to go all-out, and some guys will not. But if you're a professional athlete you know that...so keep your head up and be ready. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 07:52:40
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Leigh, a dangler's moves does not put a guy in the hospital do they?? It's like the hit that Downie kid layed on McAmmond a few years ago. Completely pointless. And as far as fighters go, when was the last time you watched a George Larque fight in the pre-season??? What about Parros, Boll, Stortini or any of the other players that get a ton of fighting majors in the regular season???
I'm not saying that guy can't hit in pre-season. In fact, the physical play is often encourged for those fighting for jobs. But Phaneuf is not fighting for a job. He has nothing to prove. Everyone knows he's a heavy hitter. He could have still put this guy on his behind and given the crowd what they wanted without putting the kid in the hospital.
That's my point here. I've watched the clip over and over and Phaneuf knew the hit was coming far enough in advance that he could have let up. He just proved exactly what kind of player he is. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 08:05:27
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That is sign of an excellent hitter that Phaneuf can read the play that far in advance. Scott Stevens was one of the best open ice hitters to play the game and he often said he knew as the play developed that he was going to get a big hit on a guy.
It was a good clean hit on a young player that should know enough to keep his head up.
The hit reminded me of Weights hit on Sutter last year.
Pre-season or not, veteran players or not, you play each game with full potential for several reasons. For veteran players there is always some young kid gunning for your spot and you need set examples for the rookies trying to make the club. Likewise for rookies it may just earn you that spot on the big club. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 08:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Leigh, a dangler's moves does not put a guy in the hospital do they?? It's like the hit that Downie kid layed on McAmmond a few years ago. Completely pointless. And as far as fighters go, when was the last time you watched a George Larque fight in the pre-season??? What about Parros, Boll, Stortini or any of the other players that get a ton of fighting majors in the regular season???
I'm not saying that guy can't hit in pre-season. In fact, the physical play is often encourged for those fighting for jobs. But Phaneuf is not fighting for a job. He has nothing to prove. Everyone knows he's a heavy hitter. He could have still put this guy on his behind and given the crowd what they wanted without putting the kid in the hospital.
That's my point here. I've watched the clip over and over and Phaneuf knew the hit was coming far enough in advance that he could have let up. He just proved exactly what kind of player he is.
Actually a couple of years back (last year Laraque was with Pittsburgh. A guy named Archer from the Montreal Canadiens tried to drop the gloves in a preseason game against Laraque. A few seconds later Archer was taken off the ice injured. He was injured for a while, and he never got his chance back. So that ended his brief career. |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 09/20/2009 : 09:04:21
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| doesn't matter phaneuf is a joke anyway probably will end up having a -20 rating cuz he can't skate backwards |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 11:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Leigh, a dangler's moves does not put a guy in the hospital do they??
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...He could have still put this guy on his behind and given the crowd what they wanted without putting the kid in the hospital.
I do not believe he intended to put the guy in the hospital and you have no evidence that he did either. Big hit or small hit a player at the highest level on the planet needs to be ready for it. I knew this in PeeWees and so did Okposo.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
...That's my point here. I've watched the clip over and over and Phaneuf knew the hit was coming far enough in advance that he could have let up. He just proved exactly what kind of player he is.
From what I've read the Flames were down 3-1 in the game and this was touted as the turning-point of the game and they went on to win 5-4. Pre season is for many things including teaching the younger players how to rally a team. We talk about it daily here, that a big hit can turn a game around and motivate a bench. This was obviously one of those times. Most of the guys playing will take that lesson back to their respective AHL teams and pass on the message and in the process make their organisation stronger. Look, preseason or regular season or post season, you're playing in the NHL, if you don't think you're going to be rocked when your head is down and you're cutting across the neutral zone then I don't even have a spot for you on my rec league team.
Now one last comment...although it's a rediculous thought...If I were playing in the NHL that night and I was Phaneuf I would not have hit him so hard; I would have let off. But maybe that's why I don't play in the NHL...that and I don't have talent. |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 11:56:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It's like the hit that Downie kid layed on McAmmond a few years ago.
No it's not that was a dirty hit Phaneuf's was at least a clean hit. You can't ask a guy to let up because it's preason it's a split second descion to make a hit on someone. You have no time to think about it.
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
Edited by - Sensfan101 on 09/20/2009 11:57:18 |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 09/20/2009 : 11:57:39
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| funny how he didn't even play last night wait didn't they chirp Avery for this hmmm maybe that have more stuff in common other than girls |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 20:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
funny how he didn't even play last night wait didn't they chirp Avery for this hmmm maybe that have more stuff in common other than girls
In this situation no good can come from playing him against the Islanders. Why take the risk of some idiot running him all night long for the sake of revenge? Besides a star isn't going to play every game in the preseason, give the rookies some ice time. It was a good management decision, but if it were up to Phaneuf I'm sure he would have played and welcomed the onslaught. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 21:07:19
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It's like Leigh says. The pre-season is not an all star game. Players are there to get in game form for the season. Big checks are a part of Phaneufs game. Those checks take split second timing. Looks like he's ready for the season to me.
I have a feeling with Sutter reunited with Phaneuf we will see the Norris calibre player that he is again. Big checks and all. |
Edited by - willus3 on 09/20/2009 21:08:16 |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 09/21/2009 : 08:27:10
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Although the hit is "technically" clean - Phaneuf, being a professional could have let up a little.
Okposo was already losing control of the puck while being pushed from behind from another Flame player - Phaneuf could have let up...
If this is part of Phaneuf's game - then sieze the oportunity when your opponent has his head up. Don't take advantage of such an easy target. Sure hit him, but don't end his carreer!
Be a pro Phaneuf, don't make a statement like that when your opponent is already "falling" and has his head down...
That makes him look almost as bad as Bertuzzi... even though Phaneuf's hit is technically clean. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 08:49:51
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Bottom line gentlemen, and any player will tell you this:
"Taking it easy" (while playing within the rules and guidelines of the game, mind you) means that eventually, no matter how talented you are, you will not be playing in the NHL.
Giving some analogy about two guys doing something illegal (fighting) that technically shouldn't exist in the first place and then one guy having the "respect" to not not severely injure another player . . . that is meaningless in a discussion about a body check - a totally legal play in this great game called hockey.
This is why good coaches send down youngsters who haven't put on enough weight yet or aren't able to take the big hit . . . because there is no "letting up" in the NHL. You are in the big leagues, playing with large grown men, and you better be prepared to play against guys who are fighting for their reputations, careers, or a shot at making ten times the money they are making now.
And for goodness sakes, keep your head up.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 10:11:30
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I think it's ridiculous for anyone to suggest Phaneuf ought to have let up? Absolutely ridiculous. He's there, doing what he's paid to do. I don't care if it's preseason, every player is out there getting ready for the season and most have to prove themselves every day! Do you not think Phaneuf is doing his best from day one to ensure he has a bounce back year after the debacle last season? Mabye he's got the Olympics in his head and wants to go out from day 1 and prove something to the guy(s) picking that team? Regardless, i would never expect someone to let up.....
If that were a prospect in Phaneuf's spot, trying his best to make an NHL team or at least an impression, would you expect him to "let up" so that he made sure not to injure someone? Didn't think so, so why should Dion?
For the record, i love Phaneuf's game, but i don't like the guy. Seen him here in Vancouver, having lunch with his g/f and he was very rude and didn't treat her with respect. Guy may be a douche, but i can still like his style of play.... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 10:31:59
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Couple of points. Firstly, yes without question keep your head up. It a collision sport and people get hurt when they are not paying attention.
However, I have to call complete garbage on anyone who says that Phaneuf needed to do what he did there. Let me give you two examples. Scott Neidermayer and Nicklas Lidstrom. 2 of the best defencemen today, 2 Hall of Famers, and 2 guys that would make many people's list as some of the best ever. Have you EVER watched either of those guys lay a hit like that?? EVER!!!
Ultimately, it was a horrible defensive play. What happens if Okposo caught Phaneuf coming out of the corner of his eye and dodges the hit or at least absorbs some of the hit and passes the puck off??? Automatic odd man rush. It was a bad hockey play to begin with and more so a player was hurt. It was a weak play and nothing can change my mind of that.
Letting up on those kind of hits has absolutely nothing to do with someone staying in the NHL long term unless that is their talent is limited and they have to be 'that guy'. The players with the true gift of playing the game do not HAVE to hit like that. They may still choose to hit like that, but they don't have to.
I am not eluding to the point that players have to 'take it easy.' My point is that hitting a player to remove him from the puck and completely desimating a man is two completely different things. I agree that if someone 'takes it easy' they will eventually end up on their way out of anything they are doing, sport or other wise.
However, it's those who live and/or play with honor and respect that go down in history. I love a good hit as much as the next guys does, but a good hit rarely if ever means a player gets hurt. The point of the body check is a defensive play to remove a player from the puck not to hurt someone. It's the hard hits where both guys get up and skate away that are the exciting part of hockey. Not the one's where one guy skates away and the other is on stretcher. There is no need for it and legal or not, I don't think it should be part of the game.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 09/21/2009 14:34:44 |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 09/21/2009 : 12:47:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
..... They may still choose to hit like that, but they don't have to.
Especially when the game means NOTHING! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 15:15:56
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Beans, i totally agree that Phaneuf didn't "need" to hit him like that. Problem is, THAT'S the way Dion Phaneuf plays and it's within the rules! If you wanna argue that a hit like that should be outlawed, so be it. If it were illegal, i'd be all over him. Unfortunately for Okposo, it's a clean hit and one which is part of the game at this point.
Niedermeyer and Lidstrom, yes, both incredible Dmen who don't hit guys like that. That being said, it never was part of their game. Guys like Stevens and Phaneuf have been hitting like that since day 1. Would Stevens have been as good if he weren't allowed to hit like he did? He'd have still likely have been a great defender, but i'm sure that a lot of forwards played a little more safely around him sotospeak. The fear of his hits alone prob made players think twice about the way they were gonna cross the NJ blueline!
As for it being a horrible defensive play, no. Sorry, but "if's" don't count. It COULD have been a horrible defensive play IF what you suggested happened, but it didn't.
I don't ever enjoy seeing a player hurt and/or carried off the ice on a stretcher, but hockey's a physical game that allows for some serious collisions. If they change some of the rules, so be it but as they stand now, that hit was clean. I really don't see how you can take that hit away from a player like Phaneuf just because it's a preseason game. If it were reg season would it be okay? How about playoffs? Why is there a double standard???? |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 16:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Beans, i totally agree that Phaneuf didn't "need" to hit him like that. Problem is, THAT'S the way Dion Phaneuf plays and it's within the rules! If you wanna argue that a hit like that should be outlawed, so be it. If it were illegal, i'd be all over him. Unfortunately for Okposo, it's a clean hit and one which is part of the game at this point.
Niedermeyer and Lidstrom, yes, both incredible Dmen who don't hit guys like that. That being said, it never was part of their game. Guys like Stevens and Phaneuf have been hitting like that since day 1. Would Stevens have been as good if he weren't allowed to hit like he did? He'd have still likely have been a great defender, but i'm sure that a lot of forwards played a little more safely around him sotospeak. The fear of his hits alone prob made players think twice about the way they were gonna cross the NJ blueline!
As for it being a horrible defensive play, no. Sorry, but "if's" don't count. It COULD have been a horrible defensive play IF what you suggested happened, but it didn't.
I don't ever enjoy seeing a player hurt and/or carried off the ice on a stretcher, but hockey's a physical game that allows for some serious collisions. If they change some of the rules, so be it but as they stand now, that hit was clean. I really don't see how you can take that hit away from a player like Phaneuf just because it's a preseason game. If it were reg season would it be okay? How about playoffs? Why is there a double standard????
Alex116, I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with your points here so thanks for saving me the time writing it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 16:49:00
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This is the primary reason why the comparison between Phaneuf and Stevens literally makes me sick. Scott Stevens was one of the best defensive defensemen of his generation. He was solid in every place on the ice. Phaneuf literally could not hold Steven's jock defensively. The only comparison is that both are know for huge hits. However, take Phaneuf's ability to hit away and he's a very below average defensive defensemen. Take Steven's ability to hit away and he was still a significantly above average defensive defensemen.
And to say "if" is more than a logical arguement. Watch the clip below and tell me what would have happened if Phaneuf missed this hit or if Okposo would have slide the puck to his right and absorbed the hit??? The other Calgary defender was already engaged with Okposos. It would have not been a 2 on 1, more than likely a breakaway or a 2 on 0!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iql-lyihBkM
It's like saying passing the puck across your goal mouth when the other team is forechecking is a good play IF the other team doesn't pick it off. It's simply not the case. A bad play is a bad play, even if the result is not bad.
And ultimately, the play do not have to be ruled illegal for player to police themselves. Sure this situation was Phaneuf, but it really goes for any player. There is no benefit on the ice what so ever when a player is hit so hard (intentionally) he is taken off on a stretcher. It's a dangerous enough sport that players do not need even more risk by trying to hurt each other. Phaneuf, or any other player for that matter, would be able to prove the same point without a guy going to the hospital.
And for the record, I was a huge fan of Scott Stevens, and it was never because of the hits he laid.
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 18:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
This is the primary reason why the comparison between Phaneuf and Stevens literally makes me sick. Scott Stevens was one of the best defensive defensemen of his generation. He was solid in every place on the ice. Phaneuf literally could not hold Steven's jock defensively. The only comparison is that both are know for huge hits. However, take Phaneuf's ability to hit away and he's a very below average defensive defensemen. Take Steven's ability to hit away and he was still a significantly above average defensive defensemen.
And to say "if" is more than a logical arguement. Watch the clip below and tell me what would have happened if Phaneuf missed this hit or if Okposo would have slide the puck to his right and absorbed the hit??? The other Calgary defender was already engaged with Okposos. It would have not been a 2 on 1, more than likely a breakaway or a 2 on 0!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iql-lyihBkM
It's like saying passing the puck across your goal mouth when the other team is forechecking is a good play IF the other team doesn't pick it off. It's simply not the case. A bad play is a bad play, even if the result is not bad.
And ultimately, the play do not have to be ruled illegal for player to police themselves. Sure this situation was Phaneuf, but it really goes for any player. There is no benefit on the ice what so ever when a player is hit so hard (intentionally) he is taken off on a stretcher. It's a dangerous enough sport that players do not need even more risk by trying to hurt each other. Phaneuf, or any other player for that matter, would be able to prove the same point without a guy going to the hospital.
And for the record, I was a huge fan of Scott Stevens, and it was never because of the hits he laid.
Beans I'm not arguing with you about whether Phaneuf can hold Stevens' jock or not. We're not even talking about whether it was a "smart" play or not - I would agree with you that Phaneuf goes out of his way to make a big hit which often puts him out of position. He's still a young guy and as a Flames fan I hope he grows out of it (Stevens was excellent at not putting himself out of position to make his hits) I've been debating your comment about whether or not a player should let-off because it is preseason. Your argument seems to be taking on a new angle...perhaps you can't defend the old angle, so this is your new approach 
And hospitals are irrelevant here, players go to the hospital for minor-physical and non-physical reasons too (light hits and rub outs, trips, falls, sticks etc.) You could see 50 hits like that and 49 times out of 50 they get up and skate away with their tails between their legs. Like I said above, I doubt Phaneuf intended to put Okposa in the hospital, but in contact sports that happens.
Right now I have to be honest, it just sounds like you don't like the guy and you're looking for reasons to persecute him. If so, start a new thread, just say it, and be done with it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 18:56:37
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Well perhaps my point originally was askew. I believe that hits such as the one Phaneuf laid out shouldn't happen in any game. Regular season, playoffs, exhibition, pre-season etc. The hit has more intention than separating the man from the puck. That is my point.
I also believe that there should be a little mutual respect in the preseason. All the players are shaking off the game rust. Even the most season vet makes a couple rookie mistakes in the first two games. I wonder what the media would have said if the kid in the hospital has Crosby, Malkin, or Ovechkin on the back of his shirt?? Losing a player of that caliber for any length of time would be bad at any point of the season but in pre-season, it's just not worth it. The games have no value to the team what so ever.
And finally, I think Phaneuf could have proved his point without the kid going to the hospital. I would agree that Phaneuf did not try to put the guy out of commission. But it's also pretty hard to deny the he was trying to do more than separate the man from the puck. Every time a player makes that decision, the risk of injury is significantly higher. That's the part I can do without. Regardless of the reasons for it (change momentum of the game, excite the crowd, whatever) I personally could do without those hits. Take those hits out of the game tomorrow and the NHL is no worse off.
So I guess I have two points. One, the hits are not part of the game I like to watch. And two, there should be mutual player respect in the pre-season. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 09/21/2009 19:00:59 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 23:41:21
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Beans....imo, because of the fact there's far too many guys trying to make an impact and earn a spot on a team, you'll simply never see the "mutual respect in the preseason" you speak of! Also, you have yet to comment on my point about "what if" it were a prospect who made the hit. If that's a hard hitting defensive dman trying his azz off to make the Flames, would that hit be okay???
When you say Phaneuf could have "proved his point without the kid going to the hospital" yet you agree that "Phaneuf did not try to put the guy out of commission", what exactly are you saying? What do you feel "his point" was? I sure don't think he wanted to see Okposo carried off the ice and rather would have preferred to see him, like Leigh said, get up and skate away with his tail between his legs. Bottom line is this, he could have, and maybe to your point about it being a bad defensive play, should have, stayed back with his man to avoid a possible breakaway, but that's not Dion. He plays a physical game, takes chances and does what he can to help his team. Unfortunately, someone got hurt. If Okposo hadn't gotten the concussion and was able to continue, we wouldn't be having this conversation/debate! It's such a fine line and unfortunately it went the way it did.
The comparisons to Stevens that people make are definitely mostly to do with their physical play. I agree, Phaneuf is not at this point, and may never be, as good defensively. I'd say he's not as good at the physical aspect either and needs to learn when and when not to throw the big hit and not risk hurting his team. However, offensively, he's already better than Stevens was and let's face it, he's only 24 years old and far from his prime! Ten years from now, we all could have a different opinion on him, who knows?
The main point i don't get is your opinion that hits like that have no place in the game regardless of whether it's preseason, playoffs, etc? Do you wanna take out all the physical stuff? Should we get rid of fighting? Hip checks? Body checks? What if the feisty Mr. Ovechkin gets into a scrap and gets KO'd, smashes his head open on the ice and is out for the year, or worse, forever? Would that suck? Absolutely, but it's the chance these guys take to play the game. It's all part of the risk of playing at the level they do....
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2009 : 23:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Beans....imo, because of the fact there's far too many guys trying to make an impact and earn a spot on a team, you'll simply never see the "mutual respect in the preseason" you speak of! Also, you have yet to comment on my point about "what if" it were a prospect who made the hit. If that's a hard hitting defensive dman trying his azz off to make the Flames, would that hit be okay???
When you say Phaneuf could have "proved his point without the kid going to the hospital" yet you agree that "Phaneuf did not try to put the guy out of commission", what exactly are you saying? What do you feel "his point" was? I sure don't think he wanted to see Okposo carried off the ice and rather would have preferred to see him, like Leigh said, get up and skate away with his tail between his legs. Bottom line is this, he could have, and maybe to your point about it being a bad defensive play, should have, stayed back with his man to avoid a possible breakaway, but that's not Dion. He plays a physical game, takes chances and does what he can to help his team. Unfortunately, someone got hurt. If Okposo hadn't gotten the concussion and was able to continue, we wouldn't be having this conversation/debate! It's such a fine line and unfortunately it went the way it did.
The comparisons to Stevens that people make are definitely mostly to do with their physical play. I agree, Phaneuf is not at this point, and may never be, as good defensively. I'd say he's not as good at the physical aspect either and needs to learn when and when not to throw the big hit and not risk hurting his team. However, offensively, he's already better than Stevens was and let's face it, he's only 24 years old and far from his prime! Ten years from now, we all could have a different opinion on him, who knows?
The main point i don't get is your opinion that hits like that have no place in the game regardless of whether it's preseason, playoffs, etc? Do you wanna take out all the physical stuff? Should we get rid of fighting? Hip checks? Body checks? What if the feisty Mr. Ovechkin gets into a scrap and gets KO'd, smashes his head open on the ice and is out for the year, or worse, forever? Would that suck? Absolutely, but it's the chance these guys take to play the game. It's all part of the risk of playing at the level they do....
Both Beans and I are saying that hits to the head are not hockey plays. Phaneuf could have taken the body, put Okposo on his ass and had the same effect WITHOUT causing a concussion. Hits to the head are not hockey plays. Until the NHL makes a stand on head hits they will continue to happen and will be well within the rules. The problem here is that the rules DO NOT protect the players as they are currently written. What if it were Crosby, Ovie or the best player on your team? Would you stand back and say " well it was a clean hit?". Steroids were not illegal in Baseball until the last 8 years or so but now there is public outcry if someone is nailed for use. I think that Beans and I are saying that the rules need to change to protect the players and that these monstrous hits that end in concussions are unnecessary for hockey. Okpsoso could have been laid out and got up and learned the lesson, instead Phaneuf has put one notch in Okposo's concussion belt, and now he has only a few more before he becomes Lafontaine, Lindros, Lindros, Kypreos or any other number of NHLers that have had their career ended due to concussions. Thats all. Unneeded, unwarranted and gross hits to the head must be ended. Thats all we are trying to say. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 04:45:40
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"hits to the head are not hockey plays"
The body check was clean . . . I could argue that skating through the neutral zone with the puck and your head down on a lone man rush against two defenders is a stupid play that will get you hurt in the NHL eventually.
Was Phaneuf to assume that Okposo wasn't at the required skill level or 'hockey smarts' level required for the NHL, and was supposed to let up at the end of his hit? Because I have to tell you, watching it again, it is certainly not the biggest one I have seen, and if Okposo was Krejci or Chara, even with their head down it's simply a decent check and they skate off the ice easily.
Phaneuf is not an especially big or tall guy, and if it's a clean hit against a player, it shouldn't involve the head . . . because you'd have to assume the player he's hitting (unless he's Briere or Fleury sized) wouldn't be skating in the neutral zone with the puck in his feet and his head down.
I was actually surprised that Okposo got as hurt as he did.
If Phaneuf lets up next time, there might not even be a hit, because we can't assume every player wouldn't have the hockey sense at this level to avoid it or give the bodycheck back.
Unless Phaneuf possesses ESP abilities and can know exactly how Okposo will skate, where his head will be, how he will react - there is no way he could possibly imagine letting up on a perfectly legal hit on a player coming through the neutral zone with the puck.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 08:02:24
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redneck.... i too would love to see the head shots end, but how? Like Slozo suggests, guys are all different sizes and where a guys shoulder hits him is gonna vary. If that was Briere he hit, it's almost certain to catch him in the head at least partially as that's prob where his shoulder will line up? I really don't have the answer i guess cuz i don't like the head injuries either but i will say this, it wasn't a blatant elbow to the head or any sort of intentional head shot imo. Someone earlier said something very similar, that Okposo's head was down and that was the reason the shoulder hit it. If his head was up, he prob gets it in the upper chest region? You can't expect Phaneuf, in a split second, to come to the conclusion that his head was down, therefore bail out? Again, i really don't have the answer.
I do however have an answer for your question "What if it were Crosby, Ovie or the best player on your team?" So be it! Would it suck? Yup, but i have no prob with anyone being hit as long as it's clean and within the rules. Also, i understand the whole "shouldn't hit someone in a vulnerable position" stance but again, these are split second decisions these guys have to make and it's not as easy as we'd like. Who defines "vulnerable" at a point like that anyway? You'd pretty much have to take the hitting out of the game..... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 08:19:28
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I agree with Slozo 100%.
However, because the hit was clean does not make it right.
Also, I am not saying that a player has to have ESP to make a hit. And I agree that in some cases, the differnce in size between players is an issue. Maybe when the players are Chara and Gionta. But not in this case. Not even close. 2" in height is completely insignificant.There still may be injuries and such that occur. However, Phaneuf in this case did nothing in way of an attempt to NOT hit the other player in the head. He COULD have attempted a body check that was lower than he did. Rather than that, he decided to go high. He did not leave his feet but very nearly did. As close as one can get without leaving their feet. That's a dangerous hit. Clean, by defintion of the rules yes, but dangerous none the less.
Alex, what I mean when I say that Phaneuf was not trying to send the kid to the hospital but he was doing more than removing him from the puck. That's pretty clear to me. He was definately trying to send a message and whenever that decision is made, injuries can occur. Again, Phaneuf EASILY could have still hit the guy WITHOUT hitting him so effen hard and definately not hitting him so effen high. Why is that so hard to understand?? It was a choice that Phaneuf made for himself years ago. He always hits to hurt. There is no doubt in my mind about that.
The day that hockey players decided to hit to do more than remove the guy from the puck is when they all started. I think that Redneck and I are saying that it could and should stop. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 10:24:51
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Whoa...take it easy Beans. Okay, maybe Phaneuf could have hit him a little lower? Would a hip check resulting in two blown out knees satisfy you? How about he lowers the boom like a lineman and breaks a few of his ribs? Maybe he should have just clipped him enough to knock him off balance and perhaps dislocated the guys shoulder? I dunno, but saying that he hit's to hurt is kinda funny. I mean, if you polled the NHL players, i'd be willing to bet that 99% of them would admit to trying to hurt the other guy with a hit! NOT TO THE POINT OF HOSPITALIZING SOMEONE, but do you not think a player hitting another guy is hoping that it hurts a bit so that the guy is a little more tentative next time he comes on a rush? If what you're saying is that Phaneuf always hits to completely destroy the guy and doesn't have any regard for his health, career, future, etc, then i understand that's your opinion! THAT is why i guess i find it "so hard to understand".
Bottom line is, this was a clean hit. Okposo, unfortunately had been bumped from behind by i believe Dawes and unfortunatley found himself leaning forward trying to keep control of the puck (which was in his feet forcing him to look down) when Phaneuf hit him. If he were to go give him a friendly little bump to take the puck away, you're changing hockey. You're taking the hitting out.
BTW, for the record, if Okposo had been able to see him coming and slip the puck through to a winger for a breakaway it would have been a bad defensive play, i agree. HOWEVER, go look at it again. The Isles were in the middle of a freakin' line change and there was no one there to take such a pass! There not only wasn't another Islander over center, there wasn't any on the left wing at the time as the winger peeled off to go to the bench, likely expecting a dump in from Okposo! SO, don't try to tell me it was a poor defensive play/decision. There's absolutely nothing to back that up! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2009 : 11:06:23
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Alex, you are obviously missing my point. Not only did Phaneuf hit the fella way too hard, but he hit him high. I am not saying hit him as hard and hit him in the legs. I am saying hit him square and don't disable the poor guy. I'm saying an actual 'old school' hip on hip hit would have thrown Okposo on his noodle, brought the crowd to their feet, and Okposo would have more than likely gotten up and skated away. In stead, he chose to rock the guy high with his shoulder dangerously close to his head so hard that he himself lost his balance.
(Side note, another different between Phaneuf and Stevens. Stevens rarely threw himself off his feet with a hit.)
I think that 99% of the players in the league DO NOT try to hurt a guy when hitting. They hit hard, some hit harder than others intentionally. But I would say that the 'lie detector' would say that there is a very low percentage of players trying to hurt another player. Finishing a check and hurting another player is not even close to the same thing.
You can't say that because it's a line change it's a good defensive play. Indirectly you are saying if it wasn't a like change it was a bad defensive play. I am saying that the situation is irrelevant. A good play is always a good play and a bad play is always a bad play. The result might not always show it, but that doesn't change anything.
For any poker players out there, it's like saying that going all in with pocket KK's is good play when the other player has pocket AA's and a king comes on the flop. Obviously, hind sight is 20/20 and one can always say after if it was right or wrong. However, percentage wise, the pocket AA's are a 95% favorite to beat pocket KK's. Even though that time it worked out, in the long run, you will go broke because it's a bad play.
Ultimately, I don't like it. I'll argue it until I am blue in the face because I don't think these guys need to get hurt to play the game. I'll never disagree in it being a clean hit. But you will never convince me that it was A) a good defensive play, B) not a dangerous hit, and most importantly C) had to happen at all.
We'll agree to disagree.
Good Debate Gents. |
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Phaneuf on Okposo 
