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OilFan9911
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2009 : 18:29:38
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Many teams have very good defensive cores, but what are the top 5 teams when it comes to top six defensemen?
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lyall
PickupHockey Pro
360 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2009 : 18:57:59
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In not particular order:
Edmonton
Calgary
Detroit
Boston
Chicago
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Guest9494
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Posted - 09/23/2009 : 19:24:18
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NJ
BOS
DET
SJ
CHI |
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Guest4271
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Posted - 09/24/2009 : 03:55:00
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I would say:
1.Calgary
2.Detroit
3.Boston
4.Chicago
5.Edmonton |
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Guest5382
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Posted - 09/24/2009 : 07:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by OilFan9911
Many teams have very good defensive cores, but what are the top 5 teams when it comes to top six defensemen?
There are some very strange picks so far. In no particular order.
(without looking up rosters and what I can see as top 3 on the team since they eat up a lot of ice time I am unable to name more without some looking up)
Calgary (JBo, Phaneuf, Regher)
Philly (Pronger, Timmonen, Cobourn)
Chicago (Keith, Seabrook, Campbell)
Detroit (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall)
Boston (Chara, Wideman, Morris)
As a special bonus since they are very close to the top 5
Nashville (Weber, Suter, Hamhuis)- boy do these guys get the shaft
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 12:38:49
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My top five are:
Montreal (After getting Gill, Spacek, and having Markov and Hamrlik)
Detroit (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and more)
Toronto (Komisarek and Schenn, Beauchemin and Exelby, Kaberle)
Boston (Chara, Wideman, Stuart, Morris)
Tampa Bay (May be good ar may be bad. Ohlund, Hedman, Meszaros)
This Is my top 5 teams of denfenceses in the league.
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2
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Edited by - brentrock2 on 09/24/2009 12:41:22 |
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phlyguy90
Rookie
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 13:25:59
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| dude what is it with you brentrock and jocking the toronto maple leafs? they have some good young defensemen but they are nowhere top 5 worthy yet. besides i thought you were a canadiens fan. |
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PhillyFan12
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 13:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by lyall
In not particular order:
Edmonton
Calgary
Detroit
Boston
Chicago
i'd go with lyall,he got pretty much the same order that i would of picked.
PhillyFan12
Philly Rules!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 14:18:04
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quote:
Originally posted by brentrock2
quote:
Originally posted by phlyguy90
dude what is it with you brentrock and jocking the toronto maple leafs? they have some good young defensemen but they are nowhere top 5 worthy yet. besides i thought you were a canadiens fan.
To be honest with you Phlyguy90, Toronto was my 6th pick
HABS RULE!!
brentrock2
If TO was your 6th pick, why the F are they in your top five in your last post??? 
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Edited by - Alex116 on 09/24/2009 18:09:21 |
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OilFan9911
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 15:04:31
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The best defense in the league is obviously Detroit. When you have Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall you are pretty much set up. Then you have Calgary and Edmonton tied for second.
Phaneuf-Souray
Bouwmeester-Visnovsky
Regehr-Gilbert
Sarich-Grebeshkov
Giordano-Smid
Pardy-Strudwick/Staios/Chorney
These are both elite defense cores. Fourth is probably Philadelphia with Pronger and Timonen. And fifth is a tie between San Jose and Boston. Boyle and Blake on San Jose leading them and Chara and Wideman on Boston. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 16:57:25
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I am an Edmonton fan. I bleed blue and orange. But a little bit of logic here folks. Edmonton is a fine defensive group and the strength of the team. Yet, they are not as good as San Jose, Vancouver, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Boston, or even Nashville. They compare in a '2nd teir' with Montreal, Toronto, Anaheim, etc.
Souray's strong, Vishnovksy is strong, Grebeshkov is stable, Gilbert is a defensive liability, Strudwich is very limited, and Staios is one of the worst 10 players in the NHL for turnovers year over yet.
They are strong enough to compete and stable enough, but to say they are the 2nd best in the league is a big stretch. I would say they are top 1/3 of the league, but not top 5. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 09/24/2009 20:54:27 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 18:12:30
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Amen Beans....i couldn't agree with you more! They're certainly not weak by any standard, but def not top 5 and certainly not 2!
I'm looking forward to seeing how our d here in Vancouver shapes up with so many guys on one way contracts. A d of Mitchell, Salo, Erhoff, Bieksa, Edler, Lukowich, etc, while not flashy, looks to be pretty strong at both ends of the ice. We prob don't have a guy considered in the top five offensively or top five defensively, but overall, pretty balance with a bit of both. Should be interesting.... |
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Guest5527
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Posted - 09/24/2009 : 18:45:58
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| The oilers have a better D than Calgary but not as good as detriot although its not that far off the oilers have 4 potential 40 point D Detriot doesnt they also have a way more productive core of forwards9detriot does) yet i still hate detriot the most( apart from the preds) |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 09/24/2009 : 18:51:25
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| wheres NJ on everyones list |
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OilFan9911
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2009 : 21:04:08
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Beans15 Posted - 09/24/2009 : 16:57:25
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I am an Edmonton fan. I bleed blue and orange. But a little bit of logic here folks. Edmonton is a fine defensive group and the strength of the team. Yet, they are not as good as San Jose, Vancouver, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Boston, or even Nashville. They compare in a '2nd teir' with Montreal, Toronto, Anaheim, etc.
Souray's strong, Vishnovksy is strong, Grebeshkov is stable, Gilbert is a defensive liability, Strudwich is very limited, and Staios is one of the worst 10 players in the NHL for turnovers year over yet.
They are strong enough to complete and stable enough, but to say they are the 2nd best in the league is a big stretch. I would say they are top 1/3 of the league, but not top 5.
You may disagree with the Oilers being second and there is a debate over that, but they are definitely top five. Maybe they aren't top five defensively, but they are offensively and both aspects have to be considered. Last year the Oilers had the fifth highest defense point production in the league (right behind San Jose, Chicago, Boston, and Detroit). However, Visnovsky was on pace for 51 points if he wouldn't have been injured which would have put them in the top three. Having four guys capable of scoring 40 points a season is quite remarkable. This is why the Oilers have one of the best defenses in the league. And to say that Gilbert is a liability is bologna (for lack of a better term). He ranked in the top 16 in points last year among defensemen. He is going to get even better in the future as he improves his game and improving on 45 points is quite difficult but he is more than capable. Now maybe I didn't take the defensive side into consideration as much as I should have when I ranked them tied for second (but being an Oilers fan it was a legitimate mistake), but they definitely deserve to be ranked in the top five defenses in the league. |
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Guest9604
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Posted - 09/24/2009 : 21:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by OilFan9911
You may disagree with the Oilers being second and there is a debate over that, but they are definitely top five. Maybe they aren't top five defensively, but they are offensively and both aspects have to be considered. but they definitely deserve to be ranked in the top five defenses in the league.
Wow, for being a new member to the site, way to destroy your credibility.
Let's see, you rank the defense high because solely of their offense. Isn't that a little back assward? That is like arguing that a goalie is the best goalie in the league because he can score but can't stop a beach ball.
The other defenses listed can play offense but are really solid defensively. Lidstrom and Rafalski - yep 50 to 60 point plus guys. Weber and Suter, Chara and Wideman. However they also are very good defenders.
Might as well argue that NYR has a top 5 defense because they are the top 5 in salary. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 07:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9604
quote:
Originally posted by OilFan9911
You may disagree with the Oilers being second and there is a debate over that, but they are definitely top five. Maybe they aren't top five defensively, but they are offensively and both aspects have to be considered. but they definitely deserve to be ranked in the top five defenses in the league.
Wow, for being a new member to the site, way to destroy your credibility.
Let's see, you rank the defense high because solely of their offense. Isn't that a little back assward? That is like arguing that a goalie is the best goalie in the league because he can score but can't stop a beach ball.
The other defenses listed can play offense but are really solid defensively. Lidstrom and Rafalski - yep 50 to 60 point plus guys. Weber and Suter, Chara and Wideman. However they also are very good defenders.
Might as well argue that NYR has a top 5 defense because they are the top 5 in salary.
LOL (to what's in bold)
Well said post. You can't call a team's defense "top 5" because it's 5th in scoring. Yeah, offensive production should be considered, but not moreso than their defensive abilities!
Oilfan....Look at the Oil D, then look at the Flames D and ask yourself this: You're beginning the playoffs today as the #1 seed. Which D would you prefer to have?
**Clue: While technically there is not a correct answer (because this is asking for your opinion, the logical answer, and the one which would help your team most could be difficult for and Oiler fan to answer. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 08:44:34
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C'mon. I mean think logically for a second. Let's use your logic of the Oilers being a top 5 offensive team for a second.
You are dead right. Edmonton's defensemen compared to the rest of the league last year ranked 3rd in goals, 5th in assist, 5th in points, 4th in shooting percentage, and 5th in PP goals.
Absolutely, they are top 5 offensively.
They ranked 13th in +/-, 23rd in hits, 17th in blocked shots. Middle of the road. Unfortunately, they were the 29th ranked team in giveaways. And even though they ranked 7th for most takeaways, because of the number of turnovers, they were 24th in their ratio of giveaways to takeaways.
They have some hills to climb defensively. Not top 5 to say the least.
So if offensively they are 5th and defensively that are below 20th, how are they in the top 5 overall???
I love the Oilers and I like the defense fine. I think they will win more games for the team than they will lose. However, they are NOT as good as San Jose, Detroit, Boston, Philly(adding Pronger), Calgary, or Chicago and Nashville might even belong in this list. They compete with Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, Washington, and Anaheim. They are above average. Possibly top 10. Not top 5 and definately not #2!!!!
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Guest2332
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Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:15:23
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Why no one ever says Pittsburgh in the top 5. They got great balance offensively and defensively.
Defensive core:
Gonchar - Letang- Jay McKee - Orpik - Eaton - Coligoski
They can compete with San Jose, Detroit, Boston, Philly, Calgary and Chicago for the best defensive core. Yes, they lose Scuderi and Gill but they add McKee who is great defensively and Coligoski was a good replecement for Gonchar when he was infured last year. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 10:50:57
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I was going to give a very, very long reply yesterday but work intervened . . . but to make it shorter, I looked at which teams had the best goals against, while rating how good their goalie was and if they were a defensive team to further put them higher or lower in my rankings. I also looked at offence from the defence, but it was behind defence in importance.
Two glaring ommissions here are Minnesota and New Jersey, and I understand why . . . they are blue-collar D's with no flashy names, save for perhaps Brent Burns from the Wild. But, playing under a defensive system and with a great goalie can account for many strange disparities . . . As well, two overrated teams I have to say are Detroit and Chicago, both which had decent and good goaltending, and both with powerful offences. And one cannot forget the Stanley Cup winning Pens, whose stats were brought down mightily with the loss of key defencemen through injury last year (Gonchar and Whitney), but with a full complement they went all the way. How anyone can leave out the team that beat Detroit in 7 games, beating them 2-1 in the final two? I'd have to say that's pretty impressive, and what you would want from your defence, no?
It's what I'd want from mine, which is why they make my top 5, as I give you my list in order:
1. BRUINS: Chara, Wideman, Stuart, Morris, Ference, Hunwick
It's no accident that the most dominant force on D (Chara) puts his team in the top 5, but the supporting cast is excellent as well, with Wideman also having top-notch defence and offence. Their 5th and 6th d-men would be anyone else's 2nd-4th, and no one is really old so they should be good for quite a few years.
2. FLYERS: Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Parent, Jones
With the addition of Pronger, who proved he is still playing at a high level, the D looks very solid, and their top three or four are class A guys. With the big boys Pronger, Coburn and Jones, coming over the blueline will be difficult, and Timonen and Carle have great offensive upside. A good mix of hard hitting defence and good offence.
3. FLAMES: Bouwmeester, Regehr, Phaneuf, Sarich, Pardy, Giordano
After picking up Bouwmeester, and with a bounce-back year from Phaneuf, Calgary's D looks as good as anyone else's, especially the top 4. Good pairings of offence and defensive defencemen should produce excellent results this year.
4. PENS: Gonchar, Letang, Orpik, Goligoski, Eaton, McKee
Some very solid defence from Orpik and Eaton, with good offensive options. They lost Scuderi and Gill, but getting a consistant McKee and healthy Letang and Gonchar and Goligoski coming into his own will more than cover that. Gotta give credit where credit is due!
5. WINGS: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Lebda, Ericsson
The aging Lidstrom and Rafalski lead the pack of upcoming young guys, and they have a great blend of defence in a very good system. After the top two the skill does drop down a bit and those two aren't getting any younger; but the future looks bright for Kronwall, Lebda and Ericsson as they develop and mature.
Missed the cut . . .
6. CANUCKS
7. HAWKS
8. SHARKS
9. DUCKS
10. WILD
Not sure yet, but we'll see . . .
LEAFS
CANADIENS
OILERS
LIGHTNING
NOTE: I had forgotten Vancouver, meant for them to be #6 and put them in there now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 09/26/2009 09:38:56 |
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OilFan9911
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 15:25:44
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Guest9604 Posted - 09/24/2009 : 21:39:33
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quote:
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Originally posted by OilFan9911
You may disagree with the Oilers being second and there is a debate over that, but they are definitely top five. Maybe they aren't top five defensively, but they are offensively and both aspects have to be considered. but they definitely deserve to be ranked in the top five defenses in the league.
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Wow, for being a new member to the site, way to destroy your credibility.
Let's see, you rank the defense high because solely of their offense. Isn't that a little back assward? That is like arguing that a goalie is the best goalie in the league because he can score but can't stop a beach ball.
The other defenses listed can play offense but are really solid defensively. Lidstrom and Rafalski - yep 50 to 60 point plus guys. Weber and Suter, Chara and Wideman. However they also are very good defenders.
Might as well argue that NYR has a top 5 defense because they are the top 5 in salary.
First I would like to start by saying that your analogies were really blown out of proportion. My argument had some legitamacy no matter what your opinion. Scoring is a big part of defense. Bobby Orr for example. He was the one of the greatest defenseman ever because of his defensive play. The thing that made him the greatest defenseman ever though, was his superb ability to put up points. Same thing with Paul Coffey. All the defenses you listed only had two players (except for Detroit) that can score and play defense. I certainly understand that the defensive aspect is a defenseman's job, hence the name defenseman, but what I was trying to get across was the fact that there is another thing that defenses can do and Edmontons ability to do this is remarkable. Besides it isn't like their defense is that bad anyway. Souray and Visnovsky are both fairly good at playing defense as well, and judging from the fact that you keep only looking at the top two defenseman, I think that they compare pretty well to other teams. Now you may not agree with my opinion and that's where discussions come from, but I am not going to back down from my opinion because it is my opinion. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 09/25/2009 : 15:57:56
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| how most of you guys forget vancouver is ridiculous Bieksa Edler Salo Mitchell Ehroff Schneider Obrien Lukowich |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 16:06:50
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OilFan, I don't think anyone has argued your assessment of Edmonton's ability to score from the back end. But Visnovsky, Grebehkov, and Strudwick/Smid are the only thing in Orange and Blue resembling a defensive defenseman. Souray is slow footed and often takes bad penalties because of this. Gilbert, Staios, and Souray are 3 of the NHL's worst 12 defensemen for turning over the puck.
To put this in perspective, the worst team in the NHL last year (NYI) had a defense that combined for 280 giveaways. The three players I listed above alone gave away 234 pucks. The Oilers as a team had 428 giveaways. Good for 2nd worst in the entire NHL!!
A defensemen who is not responsible with the puck is not very valuable to his team. Luckily, the Oilers are very solid offensively from the back end and this makes this a wash overall.
And I don't think anyone is asking you to change your opinion, only to be realistic. |
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OilFan9911
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2009 : 17:47:17
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| Beans, I did not know that mind boggling stat. I guess next time I should research that stat a bit more. But, I don't think Staios will be playing much this year. The other defensemen are better than him and the only thing he brings to the team is leadership. As for Souray and Gilbert on their giveaways, yes Gilbert is pretty bad sometimes when it comes to giveaways, but Sourays are a result of being on the ice so much and trying to make so many passes. Without making those passes he would not be able to put up his points. I will relinquish my statement on the Oilers and make a more logistical placement. I would rank the Oilers 7-8th when it comes to defense and offense being balanced as one. They do rank top three in offense but the topic really didn't say offense. You have taught me a valuable lesson and next time I make a comment I will check the backround stats as well. Thx. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2009 : 18:46:27
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Seems the Flames are a popular pick. No doubt in large part due to the acquiring of Bouwmeester.
I've watched a few of the pre-season games so far and have to say I'm a little disappointed in Bouwmeester's defensive play. Certainly not what he is hyped to be. He and Regehr don't seem to have meshed all that well. I guess we'll see what the regular season brings for him. Perhaps he just needs some time to adjust to a new system. But then again the whole team is adjusting to a new system... |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2009 : 22:05:41
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In no order:
Detroit
Calgary
Chicago
Philly
no 5th atm |
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Guest5382
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Posted - 09/28/2009 : 13:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by OilFan9911
.... As for Souray and Gilbert on their giveaways, yes Gilbert is pretty bad sometimes when it comes to giveaways, but Sourays are a result of being on the ice so much and trying to make so many passes. Without making those passes he would not be able to put up his points. I will relinquish my statement on the Oilers and make a more logistical placement.
Hallellujah! You've seen the light.
But that comment that I bolded is very skewed. It's like you are trying to imply that Lidstrom and Rafalski (Chara and Wideman, Keith and Seabrook...) only play 15 minutes a game and they don't make so many passess so they tend not to have any turn overs - BALONEY. I'll wager that other top defensive pairing are on the ice more than Gilbert and Souray plus they don't give it away as much and generate just as much offense (if not more). The only exception would probably be Phaneuf last year who had a terrible year. |
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The top 5 defenses in the league 
