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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2009 : 12:32:02
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| Beans I see what you wer saying about people not understanding the points being made. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 19:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikey Boy
selfish or not...if i was in Ovechkins skates...i would be exactly the same! It not about individual stats, its about winning. Ovechkin knows he is the best goal scorer in the league, we all know that, so why give the puck to someone that isn't. Its like basketball...10 seconds left in the game are you going to give the ball to Fisher? No, Kobe Bryant is getting the ball because that is your best chance to put the game away.
MP
Sure, with 10 seconds left, I want Kobe to have the ball as well.
But if Kobe goes 4 for 35 and doesn't play defense, I don't have a chance to win anyway, so what's the point if he hits the bucket in the last 10 seconds?
Ultimately, I think Ovechkin would be as productive as he is now, with a higher shooting percentage, if he took the pass to the open player over the shot on net in traffic. I also think the Caps are more successful as well. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 07:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikey Boy
selfish or not...if i was in Ovechkins skates...i would be exactly the same! It not about individual stats, its about winning. Ovechkin knows he is the best goal scorer in the league, we all know that, so why give the puck to someone that isn't. Its like basketball...10 seconds left in the game are you going to give the ball to Fisher? No, Kobe Bryant is getting the ball because that is your best chance to put the game away.
MP
Whats funny is Fisher was the one in Game 6 who won the game basically with 3 clutch 3's, first one putting it into OT, second tying it in OT and third taking the lead. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 10:08:12
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What's even funnier is that scoring baskets late in the game has nothing to do with empty net goals.
Isn't the basketball net ALWAYS empty anyways? 
Beans, as to your argument, I will take it apart by talking about our beloved Gretzky. When Gretzky was putting up his records before Edmonton was winning the cups, you do remember the flak he got for being a selfish player, don't you? You do remember that much was written about him not being tough enough, not a good enough leader, etc until he won the cup, right?
Was Gretzky being asked to backcheck then? No.
Was it Gretzky's job to start laying out hits? No.
It was Gretzky's job to provide all the offense he could, period. He'd score goals, set up goals, and draw top assignments away from the second and third lines which were freed up to have more opportunities as a result.
Same with Ovechkin. Or Kovalchuk. Or even Crosby.
Calling a player selfish because he happens to be the best goal scorer on the team, and he makes the decision to shoot the puck at the empty net rather than risk passing it is ridiculous.
Firstly, they are on the ice at the end of a close game, so that must mean they are entrusted to some degree with decent defence, and certainly some skill at stripping the puck from others. It's actually not a "gimme" that your top goal-scorer will be on the ice in this situation. So, my point is, you have to be good enough to be on the ice in that situation, and you have to have the opportunities to score an empty net goal, meaning, your team has to be a decent amount of close games while leading by one or two goals.
Last year's leaders in Empty Net Goals:
Ovechkin - 5 (56 goals) - 8.9%
Iginla - 4 (35 goals) - 11.4%
Nash - 4 (40 goals) - 10%
Demitra - 4 (20 goals) - 20%
Havlat - 4 (29 goals) - 13.8%
J.Staal - 4 (22 goals) - 18.2%
As you can see, in terms of a percentage of his goals, Ovechkin has lower number than players that are often characterised as solid defensive players who are pretty unselfish - Iginla, Nash, J.Staal
Among the other goal scoring leaders with less than 4 ENGs:
Carter - 2 (46 goals) - 4.3%
Parise - 2 (45 goals) - 4.4%
Kovalchuk - 2 (43 goals) - 4.6%
E.Staal - 2 (40 goals) - 5%
Hossa - 1 (40 goals) - 2.5%
Vanek - 1 (40 goals) - 2.5%
So, mulling through all these stats, does this mean that Hossa and Vanek are very unselfish players? Does it mean that Demitra, J.Staal, Havlat and Iginla are selfish players?
Not necessarily.
As you can figure out, some of those guys probably don't get a lot of playing time in the last minute (Vanek), some were on bad teams with little chance to pump up their empty net chances (Kovalchuk), and some just happened to be good defensive players as well as being a top scorer and had a lot of close games (Iginla, Nash). And sometimes, it's just luck of the draw (Demitra) that you happen to score 4 empty netters in a season where you score 20 goals (or worse, there's PJ Axelsson with 3 ENGs, 6 goals total for last year).
Looking at years previous, the empty net goals stat continues to provide no insight into a player's "selfish play". Jere Lehtinen led the league in 2006/07 with 4 empty netters while only scoring 26 goals . . . but we all know him as a defensive specialist, and sound defensive player with some scoring punch. A lot of the time, it just means there were plenty of close games where that player was on the ice, and - they have to have some skill to score an empty-netter too, don't forget.
In closing, I don't think Ovechkin was selfish on this play in question- he was supporting the puck, something you need to do in general to score an empty netter down a man (players need passing options with lots of pressure). And although I have seen Ovechkin frustrated in some games and doing one too many lone man rushes, I don't consider him a selfish player at all, especially when compared to the other top snipers in the league.
When you're one of if not the best at scoring, it pays for you to be the first option to shoot a puck in the net.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 10:40:05
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OK, let's dance.
I never argued anything about a player being selfish for scoring empty net goals. If they are there, they are there. Nothing wrong with them at all.
The issue I brought up was a player making a 2 on 1 into a 3 on 1 against a team with an empty net and that is selfish.
The stats you provided are all great and interesting, but I think you missed the arguement I was making.
And regards to Gretzky, I'd like for anyone to tell me a time where he put his personal stats ahead of the team's success??? I don't think you can. Sure, there were games where he had a hot start and got a couple of goals he would push for more. But Gretzky was very responsible with the puck. Rarely did a mistake by Gretzky put his team in jeopardy and he did not make risky plays to benefit himself.
And I don't recall Gretzky being called selfish. How could he be when he passed the puck more than he shot. Opposite to what Ovechkin does, Gretzky would almost always pass to an open player rather than taking a less than open shot.
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 11:12:06
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Alright Beans, I thought this topic was over and done with, apparently not....
Slozo had an excellent post, and I don't think he misinterpreted your argument at all. The Gretzky comparison IS valid, and people actually did call him selfish, especially when he was relentlessly scoring 50 in 39 and 92 in a season. Its fine if you think empty net goals are legit- because they are. Its the correct play to try and score to put the game away.
Your argument is that Ovechkin has a penchant for joining a rush in an empty-net situation when it puts his team at a defensive risk. On the play that prompted this discussion, its been proven that this wasn't the case. Can you give any examples of him doing this when it was an unacceptable defensive risk?
Can you give any examples at all of him trying to put his own personal tallies and achievements above the teams? If you can, you haven't demonstrated any concrete examples. Constantly repeating your opinion is fine, but its not an argument. Referring back to your original opinion as proof is a logical fallacy. Every argument you are making against Ovechkin could be used against Oilers-era Gretzky, which is why Slozo's analogy is perfect.
The truth is, Ovechkin is a die-hard competitor and I believe is more concerned with winning than personal statistics. However, he takes great pride in these as well (so did Gretzky, and Crosby, and most great players), but I believe he'd rather win a gold medal and stanley cup than score 100 goals in a season. Except if he could do all three, he would.
Beans, just come out and say you don't like Ovechkin, because its become blatantly obvious from your posts that this is the case. If he was the kind of player you describe, he wouldn't be making the players around him better, be beloved by his teammates/fans, and he would have way less assists/hits that puts up on a nightly basis. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 12:31:56
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Guys, i too thought this thread was almost done, apparently not.....
Lemme see if we can't clear this up. First off, i think Beans has in fact made it clear that on this particular play in question, he didn't have a prob with what Ovie did. He commented before he'd seen the play and went on what someone else had said in describing the play, which turned out to be inaccurate. When he heard the description, it was easy for him to assume it was correct and due to the fact that he feels (his opinion) Ovechkin's a selfish player, he agreed with it. Once he saw the play, he changed his tune and admitted it was a mistake what he'd said (on that play). However, it didn't change his views that Ovie is selfish. Also, i think he made it clear he doesn't HATE Ovie, he simply thinks he puts stats in front of team goals and feels he could be a better player overall if he'd pass a little more often than he does? Beans, please accept my apology if any of this is inaccurate, but that's how i've interpretted your posts to this point!
I think the whole prob in this thread began with the OP'er claiming that "Washington was already breaking out on a 2 on 2 rush..........and Ovechkin really went out of his way to join in on this rush......". MSC, that couldn't be more inaccurate. I can totally see why Beans would find this realistic considering his opinion of the way Ovie plays. Now, why MSC said that, is beyond me. It's just so far off.......  |
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Guest4328
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Posted - 10/31/2009 : 14:22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans, as to your argument, I will take it apart by talking about our beloved Gretzky. When Gretzky was putting up his records before Edmonton was winning the cups, you do remember the flak he got for being a selfish player, don't you? You do remember that much was written about him not being tough enough, not a good enough leader, etc until he won the cup, right?
Was Gretzky being asked to backcheck then? No.
Was it Gretzky's job to start laying out hits? No.
It was Gretzky's job to provide all the offense he could, period. He'd score goals, set up goals, and draw top assignments away from the second and third lines which were freed up to have more opportunities as a result.
Same with Ovechkin. Or Kovalchuk. Or even Crosby.
Calling a player selfish because he happens to be the best goal scorer on the team, and he makes the decision to shoot the puck at the empty net rather than risk passing it is ridiculous.
I agree here. However, I think Beans does have a valid point about Ovechkin - for some reason he's always struck me as being a little selfish too. That doesn't mean he isn't great, or that his accomplishments are in any way diminished. I just think he'll realize with time that maybe he can get more done by being a better teammate sometimes than by doing it all himself.
To continue your Gretzky example - Gretzky got his 92 goals, 212 points, and 50 in 39 games all in the same year. Many would consider this his best season ever. Yet the Oilers didn't win the cup, and the Islanders, none of whom were individually as good as Gretzky but as a TEAM functioned better than Edmonton, continued their 4 year rule of the NHL. In later years, Gretzky went on to focus more on passing, and his teams actually had more success as a result. He even managed to beat his own points record with a 215 point season - by putting up 163 assists. He'd already proven he was the best goal scorer - even better than Kurri, Messier, etc, but it wasn't about him proving himself better at scoring, it was about the team winning.
Yes Ovechkin is the best goal scorer on his team and in the entire league, but he shoots from anywhere, any time. Just because he's a better goal scorer in general, doesn't mean he has a better opportunity from some obscure angle, when there are players on his team open in better possitions.
However, I think that Ovechkin will start to realize this. He finally is getting some better teammates, and I think that will help too. When he begins to honestly believe they can score goals as well, I think we'll see him concentrate less on his own personal glory, and more on team success as a whole. In Ovechkin's defense, he hasn't always had quality teammates to rely on like he does now either.
So to conclude, I think he's "a little selfish sometimes" - you don't take 500+ shots on net without being so. But I think he'll start to change too and take a more team-first attitude.
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shazariahl
Top Prospect
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 14:23:36
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Um... despite logging in first, the above post still went under some random guest name. But that was actually me.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:49:08
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Well, perhaps it was too long ago for people to remember, but Gretzky was ALWAYS a pass first player. Even in his 92 goals season he had 369 shots. That's a solid week end for Ovechkin.
Ok, ok, I know I embelished that. It as a joke.
The year Gretzky scored 92, he lead the league in shots, by 18. Unlike Ovechkin's 528 shots last year, which was 150 more than the next highest.
Also, the season Gretzky had 163 assists, few would say he was selfish. However, he took only 19 fewer shots that season as he did when he scored 92.
Is it so hard to think that Gretzky was that eff'n good???
I still don't think that the comparison to Gretzky is valid and I definately disagree that Gretzky was a selfish player. 11 consecutive seasons of more than 100 assists is IMPOSSIBLE to acomplish being selfish. He has to pass off the puck to make that happen. He shot a lot, scored a lot, but passed off significantly more.
I also have stated at least 5 times that I was not correct about Ovechkin in the empty net situation. You want me to say it one more time?? I was wrong. Happy now??
I won't admit that I don't like Ovechkin. In fact, I LOVE watching the guy play. I think he has more talent than any other players in the NHL today. But that doesn't make him unselfish. He's a shoo first/pass second player. I also think he has a beyond arrogant attitude for a guy that has not won anything yet and I think he has more flash than passion to win. That's my opinion, and I can say it as many times as I want to.
On a side note.
I found a website siting the Gretzky had 55 empty net goals in his 20 yr career. Meaning he averaged less than 3 a season. Lemieux had 33. I'm still digging up to see if I can find any other information.
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Empty Net Goals 
