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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  09:45:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Goalies
Brodeur, Fleury, Luongo

Defencemen
Boyle, Doughty, Keith, S. Niedermayer (C), Pronger (a), Seabrook, Weber,

Forwards
Bergeron, Crosby (a), Getzlaf, Heatley, Iginla (a), Marleau, Morrow, Nash, Perry, Mike Richards, Eric Staal, Thornton, Toews

Some big surprise additions in Doughty and Bergeron . . . some surprise ommissions as well of course!

Discuss!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Edited by - slozo on 12/30/2009 09:46:41

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  09:51:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There the eff is Penner????


Seriously, I like this team a lot and I think it will grow on my as time goes one. I still take Brad Richards, Vinny Lecavalier, and Martin St Louis over Staal, Mike Richards, and Bergeron. I also take Bouwmeester over Seabrook. I love Doughty on this team and he's played well enough to be there, no doubt. Absolutely not surprise or disagreement in goal. If Ward would have been healthy, he could have competed but woulda, coulda, shoulda.

I gotta say, this group of forwards are so interchangeable, the opposing defense won't be able to plan a defense. And big!!!!

Typical Canadian team. Sound all over the ice and we will, we will, Rock you!!!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:01:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Love the Doughty selection and think he deserves it more than anyone that was left off. I chose Boumeester over Seabrook but that wasn't nec who i'd have chosen, just who i thought they would. I don't have a problem with the Seabrook pick as the chemistry with Keith could be a huge bonus?

I'm not at all surprised at the omission of Green. He's a pp specialist if he'd been named, problem being, if one of the top 6 got injured, he'd pretty much have to play a more prominent role and that could have hurt us defensively in a big way!
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:07:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dont have a problem with a single person selected, excellent job Stevie Y and Co.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:09:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hate the Doughty selection. Yes, good young defenceman, very talented. NO WAY is he better than Bouwmeester.

And no way is any defenceman on this team better than Green in terms of offence . . . that is a complete shocker to me. How team Canada can leave the Paul Coffey of our time off the Olympic roster has me fuming, actually.

And you were right - Bergeron on the team!!! Another shocker to me, as it seems they went with a youth movement . . . but again, why did they go with youth that aren't as good as what we have in the present? St Louis should be on this team instead of a Bergeron or a Morrow . . . as does Smyth and Brad Richards, who are also versatile positionally.

I am very disappointed . . . I need some time off to drink a brandy and think about this in front of the fireplace, because I am getting a little emotional about it right now!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:12:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, everyone was talking about the Nash-Crosby-Iginla line, but with Bergeron on the team, it seems like he and Crosby are going to be paired. Does anyone else really want to see the Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash combination reunited?

But then again, Thornton's value is very much linked to his built in chemistry with Heatley. Where does Corey Perry fit in all this? With Getzlaf, maybe...

I wonder whether they're going to do a rollover NHL style type of line system, where they keep natural teammates together, or try to mix and match playing styles. But even if they go with the former over the latter, there's lots of natural pairs but not necessarily natural trios.

Chances are some of the notable selections / omissions had to do with finding the right guy to compliment the locks. Lines have been picked at the same time the team was, seems that way to me at least.
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Guest9351
( )

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:14:46  Reply with Quote
I agree I cant believe they kept Bowmeester and Green of this team. Makes no sense to me.
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
318 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:40:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I LOVE this team.

Glad I'm not the only one that sees how well Seabrook plays with Keith. The non-beleivers will come around if these guys stay paired up.

Good job with taking Doughty too, he deserved the spot way more than Bouwmeester or Phaneuf. Young blood who's stock is on the rise as opposed to two under-performering flames.

I'm not surprised there's no Green on here. With the Forward talent pool Canada has to sort through we don't need a goal scoring forward when we can take an actual D-man instead.

Bergeron is kind of a surprise, and I don't necessarily agree with Mike Richards. But I don't think either of them is a bad pick.

Neids as captain is a good, classy, call. Pronger with an A, maybe not so much, but who cares really.

This is the team to beat in 2010.

The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro



525 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:44:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't believe Mike Green not being on the team either, but think about: its the Olympics, with the BEST offense in the world, every major team will have the equivalent of 3 NHL first lines, if not 4. Having too many offensively minded D-men would not work. On NHL size rinks, Pronger, Weber, and Seabrook will bring defensive stability and physical intimidation, and Boyle, Keith, even Doughty will bring balanced offense.

I can't comment on Bouwmeester, as I'm an Edmonton fan, so bias is a big factor, and I haven't watched him play very often, since he's played mostly in Florida
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:45:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a little surprised at how much love Green is getting. Yes, he can put up the points, but he's not a good enough defensman in his own end to be on this squad. I don't care if his plus minus is good, he's on a very high scoring team. He just doesn't give you what you need in your own end on a consistent basis. Keep in mind, this is not one person's decision. A group of experts who're involved with this team couldn't place him on it. I think they got it right in Green's case. As i mentioned in another post, if Green were the 7th dman and presumably a pp specialist, how good would you feel if one of the other 6 got hurt and he had to play a regular shift vs Russia or Sweden in the final? I'm glad he didn't make it and wouldn't doubt that Boyle or Doughty would be putting up the same numbers playing his role in Washington!

Although i thought Bouwmeester would make it, i'm not overly shocked. If it were the big ice, he's prob have made it but on the NHL rink they obviously chose to go with the familiarity between Seabrook and Keith.
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Guest5052
( )

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  10:56:58  Reply with Quote
I thought he may have played his way off the team, but the more I think about it themore I like E. Staal on the squad. I'd like to see him play with Getzlaf and Perry. I was having trouble assessing who i would like to see play with those two (assuming they play together) and I think that Staal would be a good fit.

Lots of great players left off, but I like the make up of the team. I like a crash line which will probably include Morrow and Richards.

As for Mike Green, great offensive d-man, but the other d-men arent exactly real slouches and one of Green's better qualities is starting the rush, where as perhaps the style team Canada is more interested in playing is quick puck movement up to the forwards. Not saying green can't do that, but the others certainly can and have better defensive awareness.

Good luck lads.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  11:02:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here friggin here Alex. Green not the Coffey of our generation and it's a disgrace to Paul Coffey to say such a thing.

Boyle and Weber are as good as Green offensively and are 15 steps ahead on the defensive end. Green is not BAD defensively, but he is definately not great.

Do you really think Team Canada is a step behind without Green anywhere??? Boyle, Pronger, Neidermayer, and Weber are more than solid on the PP QB department.

Green off this team is no surprise to me. He is unfortunately more one-dimensional than the other defensemen in the group. Bouwmeester is a bigger suprise in my books. If I could say one negative thing about the Canadian defense is that there are some slower fellers there. Bouwmeester is pure skating talent and one of the smartest players in the NHL.
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1530 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  11:26:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it's kind of funny how everyone says that they aren't shocked to see Green in the lineup, but everybody can admit it wasn't like Green was a longshot to make this squad. Especially in a tourney like this, PP and PK will be a big deal. As a 7th defenseman Green would have definitely fit in well, and even though I am not a fan of Mike Green, I think he could have been effective as a PP QB. Doughty and Boyle can handle that effectively however, so Green isn't a huge loss. But I'm sure nobody would have complained had Green been included, even with his defensive ineptidude.

My biggest shock is that Brad Richards isn't on this team, and I'm even more suprised that nobody has even made mention of this. If Eric Staal is on the team, with the type of year he is having, then Richards should have gotten on. The guy has 44 points, 34 of them assists, as well as the ability to make others better around him. That's a quality I think is revered in a tourney like this. Not to mention he is a good skater and is a very good PK man and defensive forward. He only has 8 penalty minutes! He easily could have taken Staal's spot, and with Morrow on his line they could have had a great two-way line.

Brad Richards in, Eric Staal out. Only thing I would have changed.

Potential Line Combos:
Nash - Crosby - Iginla
Heatley - Thornton - Marleau
Staal - Getzlaf - Perry
Morrow - Richards - Bergeron
Toews

Niedermayer - Pronger
Boyle - Weber
Keith - Seabrook
Doughty

Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  11:33:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
leafsfan, your lineup is nearly identical to the way i see it, of course, it's prob the way 95% see them lining up as well? I'd have Bergeron as the extra forward but then i don't really see him play much and can't seem to figure out a fit for him? Who knows, a guy could get hurt just before or at the beginning of the tournament and a lot could change!

Also have to agree that Doughty will be the odd man out at least to begin with? Good learning experience for him and he'll likely see pp time and possibly some reg shifts in a few games? What i like about him over Green is that if there is an injury, he's more stable in his own end if he is called on for more minutes.
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
318 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  12:09:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I see the lines like this:

Marleau-Heatley-Thronton
Crosby-Iginla-Bergeron (I think Bergeron will pair well with Sid)
Nash-Getzlaf-Perry
Staal-Morrow-Richards (PK-shut down line)
Toews

Neids-Pronger
Keith-Seabrook
Boyle-Weber
Doughty

Brodeur
Fleury 2nd
Luongo 3rd

And Canada wins gold!


The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.

Edited by - HawkinOilCountry on 12/30/2009 12:13:17
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Guest0988
( )

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  12:58:17  Reply with Quote
Wow... first impression is that this is a great team,

Goalies: no brainer, looks like everyone agrees on this

Defence: I think making decisions like keeping Seabrook and Keith together makes sense. Along with Niedermayer and Pronger, these guys already have the chemistry and chops of a top line D-pairing. They already know exactly where their partner will be at all times (if Holland uses them this way of course). You can't buy that kind of advantage. With those 2 top D lines on the team it made sense that you'd choose Weber (offense + defense + size and grit) and Boyle (offense + defense + experience) over say Regher and Phaneuf or Green, I believe Weber and Boyle have the edge. The Doughty vs Bouwmeester decision is probably the last decision that was made and time will tell on this gamble. But perhaps it will be a non-issue with the other 6 eating up 99% of the minutes.

Forwards: Most of these seem like they were locked in from day 1. Even when Iginla, Getzlaf and Crosby were in their slumps they were written down in ink. Nash, Perry, Richards M, Toews (though young) all solid picks. I'd say The San Jose connection played their way onto the team as a unit and will likely play together. They may have inadvertantly kicked off the tampa bay connection of Lecavalier, Richards and St.Louis. But I do think this group has the most question marks. Staal, Morrow, Bergeron... Bergeron being the wildest. I saw Glen Healy call this the other night on TSN or Sportsnet or whatever, and when he said the name Bergeron as his surprise I thought this guy must be out of his mind. He must have had the inside track. I'm just not sure what he brings to the table. And is morrow the right guy in that checking role? He hasn't had the best year coming off his injury, so I wonder if his spot never was in doubt. Would I prefer one more speedy winger like St.Louis over another big center like Staal, I think so, but the Staal pick is a very "Canadian" style player and will likely fit into the system well or play a checking role better than a skilled winger like St.Louis.

Definately need to digest this team a bit more, and changes can still be made, but either way you gotta put your trust in Stevie Y.
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1547 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  12:58:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would have been shocked if Mike Green made this team, I agree with Bob Mckenzie in that he was probably cut a while ago. I see up to 4 defenceman that I would have taken before him (the Calgary 3 and Robidas) and I don't understand people saying because he is good at getting points he is a lock. Every defenceman chosen plays on their teams powerplay at one points or another, and most on the top powerplay. It's similer with Jordan Staal not getting selcted, almost all the forwards kill penaltys, why bring one PK specialist who is a step behind in the offfence.

CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Guest4271
( )

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  13:16:45  Reply with Quote
I suspect Bergeron made the team on a hunch that he and Sid can rekindle the magic that they had at the world jrs. a couple of years back. If they can't at least he can be a valuable penality killer.
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Guest9270
( )

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  18:12:40  Reply with Quote
I like this team and the people who put this team together watched and played way more hockey then me, and they followed those guys and every decision was taken after long hours of thinking, talking, watching and anylizing. So I trust them.

But I would have like to see Jordan Staal (he would have been my main guy every time my team would be in the box) and Ryan Smyth (for his desire to win) taken over Bergeron and Morrow or Eric Staal. Even Brad Richards over Mike Richards would have made more sence to me considering the season he's having and the experience (Stanley cup and Conn Smythe). And Even though I'm surprised with Bergeron being on the team I'm so glad for him, this is huge, he's come a long way since his big injury two years ago.

As for defense Drew Doughty is a surprise, I would have like to see Bouwmeester as well considering we already have Niedermayer and Boyle as pp specialists. But then again Doughty is really good and he deserves to be on this team.

Everybody deserves to be on this team and now it's up to you guys to show who's the best hockey country in the world.

Good job Steve Y.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  18:13:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9270

I like this team and the people who put this team together watched and played way more hockey then me, and they followed those guys and every decision was taken after long hours of thinking, talking, watching and anylizing. So I trust them.

But I would have like to see Jordan Staal (he would have been my main guy every time my team would be in the box) and Ryan Smyth (for his desire to win, heart, experience and penalty killing) taken over Bergeron and Morrow or Eric Staal. Even Brad Richards over Mike Richards would have made more sence to me considering the season he's having and the experience (Stanley cup and Conn Smythe). And Even though I'm surprised with Bergeron being on the team I'm so glad for him, this is huge, he's come a long way since his big injury two years ago.

As for defense Drew Doughty is a surprise, I would have like to see Bouwmeester as well considering we already have Niedermayer and Boyle as pp specialists. But then again Doughty is really good and he deserves to be on this team.

Everybody deserves to be on this team and now it's up to you guys to show who's the best hockey country in the world.

Good job Steve Y.



Me!!!!!!

Edited by - Leafs81 on 12/30/2009 18:15:13
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Guest4271
( )

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  18:50:39  Reply with Quote
Being a Bruin fan, I watch Bergeron every game, and the guy is playing awesome. With the injuries to Savard and company, he is still putting up good numbers...........and he can play in ANY role he is asked........I love this pick, but I think B. Richards didn't get enough interest for whatever reason......don't know
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  19:34:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two the two previous posts.............. I can only think that Brad Richards was left off in favour of M. Richards due to the roles they can play. M. Richards is arguably the best PK'er in the leauge (as stated by a couple of the guys on TSN today). Not saying B. Richards can't play that role, but maybe not as well? Also, perhaps Mike can play out of position (wing) better if needed?
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  19:45:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To all those nodding your heads as if you knew all along that Green was not going to be on the team and that it's not a surprise that the leading scorer (current and last year) is not on the team:

Go jump in a frozen lake.

Seriously . . . when has a team not had the defenceman with the most points for the last year and half on their team when not injured? NEVER, until now.

Can any other defenceman say that they are better offensively than Mike Green right now? NO BLOODY WAY.

So . . . a defenceman that scored 31 goals and 73 points last year (and is on a similar pace now after a slowish start) is called a "power play specialist" because he scored half his points on the power play . . . and yet Zdeno Chara scored (in the same year - last year) 11 of his 19 goals on the pp, and over 50% of his points were on the pp . . . and Mike Green scored just as even handed goals as a d-man as Weber did, they were the leaders in that category (hardly anyone else is even remotely close).

Can anyone tell me why having the best pp goal scorer, the best assist man on the pp, one of the best goal scorers even strength (if not the best), and the best assist man even strength - why he is going to be sitting down watching the Olympics?

Why not pair him with a defensive defenceman . . . why is this brain surgery? Why do people just repeat whatever the talking heads on tv parrot, as they simply nod their heads and try not to sound like they disagree with Canuck hockey god Yzerman? Why can people not see that as great a player Yzerman was, that he possibly might make many errors in judgement in choosing a team - a personnel and management decision in large part unrelated to his on-ice skills?

PP specialist my ass.

No defenceman last year had more even strength goals, and he's on the same pace for even strength goals this year, which would put him top three, probably at the top.

Even Strength Points / Power Play Points / +-

Keith: 24 ES, 9 PP (one of two d-men well under that 50% range), +10
Doughty: 12 ES, 14 PP, +7
Boyle: 16 ES, 15 PP, +6
Pronger: 12 ES, 12 PP, +9
S.Niedermayer: 9 ES, 15 PP, -9 (this is our captain who will rarely see any pp time I bet)
Weber: 11 ES, 10 PP, +1
Seabrook: 12 ES, 4 PP, +13

Mike Green: 20 ES, 18 PP, +15
So Green is second in even strength points from this group (first in even strength goals with 6 btw), first in power play points, tops in +/- . . . all because he is labelled . . .

. . . a power play specialist who is bad defensively.

I am still scratching my head.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1530 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  20:15:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Two the two previous posts.............. I can only think that Brad Richards was left off in favour of M. Richards due to the roles they can play. M. Richards is arguably the best PK'er in the leauge (as stated by a couple of the guys on TSN today). Not saying B. Richards can't play that role, but maybe not as well? Also, perhaps Mike can play out of position (wing) better if needed?


I think that that make sense, but I would have loved to have B. Richards there. He has been a winger before (see him with Lecavalier during their time in Tampa) and is having a great year offensively. Couple that with his defensive prescence and I cannot see how he isn't there. Especially since he makes players better around him (see James Neal, Vinny's numbers after Richards left, etc.)

In my opinion, that is clearly the biggest ommission on Team Canada.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  20:29:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo - Alex116 wants a cracker, Alex116 wants a cracker.....Gonna have to head north as there's no frozen lakes in the Vancouver area right now, but maybe i should find one. I can honestly say, and you can look back at my predictions which i'm pretty sure didn't include Green, i'm not surprised he's not there. If you don't want him labelled a PP specialist, fine, then lets call him an offensive defensman who more or less disappeared defensively when the going got tough in the playoffs last year. You can argue all you want about his offense, prob is, he's not a winger! He's a liability in his own end.

As for Niedermeyer, he's struggled this year and is likely on the team due to experience and heart. Hopefully he's able to elevate his game in front of his home province fans? Pronger's another who gets on here even though many say he may be too slow at this point in his career? It'll be interesting to see how he fares vs the speedy wingers from teams like Russia?

Regardless, i don't have a big prob with the d. Bouwmeester could have been there but like i said before, we're not on the larger ice surfice and that's where he'd have likely been a "lock" for this team? Have to assume he's the first one in line for a spot if there's an injury?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  21:16:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who cares if Mike Green gets on average one more goal every 3 games than Shea Weber. Why?? Because Shea Weber is a better defensive player. Plain and simple.

Stevie Y and the rest, who are the best hockey minds in the game today, agree. Green is one dimesionally compared to the other defensemen. And as much as you say it, this is not like Paul Coffey outscoring the other defensemen in the league by more than 50 points and literally doubling the goals. Not even close.

You are right. Mike Green is the best offensive defenseman in the game today. But is that what Canada needs and is that going to be the difference in winning or losing?

What Green brings to the table is found in the other players. Maybe not in one player, but the defensive group is more than capable of QBing the PP and adding scoring.

And ultimately you said it, Mike Green and defensive specialist would look good together. But the players Stevie Y picked can all play together and no one has to compensate for the shortcomings of anyone else.

All these defensemen stand on their own on both sides of the puck.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  21:36:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Doughty over Bouwmeester is a mistake and it will cost the team. Mark my words. Just watched them play head to head tonight. Bouwmeester looked like a star NHL player, Doughty looked like a star junior player. That is not homerism in the least. I paid particular attention to both guys tonight because I wanted to see what Yzerman was seeing. Well I'm still not seeing it. I watched Doughty make 5 junior level mistakes in the game tonight. On the ice for the first goal against where he lost his man Bourque who scored on a very nice pass from Bouwmeester.
His next shift out he passed the puck dangerously close in front of his net to his d-partner with Glencross within reach. Later the Flames were forechecking in LA's end killing a penalty, the puck goes behind LA's net over toward the corner and Doughty just stands on the other side of the ice and watches a Calgary player skate to the puck with another one out front of the net waiting for the pass. He easily could have gotten to the puck first. Easily. Next shift he passes straight up the middle directly on the stick of a Calgary player missing all of his own players. Late in the third Iginla is on a rush, protects the puck from Doughty like he's a child then Doughty just stands off to the side of the net watching again while he leaves Iginla alone in front waiting for a pass or rebound.
This is the guy that has played his way onto team Canada? This is the guy who is better than Bouwmeester? Now granted I have not seen as many games from Doughty that I'm sure Yzerman has but the other games I have seen of Doughty haven't impressed me either. He's too young yet. He is not ready for this team.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  21:59:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Weber over Phaneuf is a mistake as well. In the head to head games I've watched from these two this year Phaneuf has outplayed Weber decidedly. Weber has looked disinterested and quite content to let his partner Suter do the heavy lifting. As far as I'm concerned Weber is a poor man's Phaneuf. He does the same things Phaneuf does just not at as high a level. Anyone who has followed the Flames games this year will tell you Phaneuf has been improving every game he's played. Since the beginning of November he has been great. In fact it is his d-partner who is letting him down. Regehr has been nowhere near his former self, downright awful a lot of nights. Phaneuf's point totals seem low to most but his goals are there, the assists are not which is directly related to the teams inability to score this season specifically in the month of December and on the powerplay. No surprise his plus/minus rating took a dip in the month of December then either. If the team can't score you can't increase your plus rating.
Phaneuf has the ability to change games. He can do it with a huge open ice hit or by creating offence(not supporting offence). And contrary to what his detractors say, he is not a defensive liability. It's a myth perpetuated by no minds who watch highlights from last season. He has been solid in his own end all season.

Sadly the defencemen picked are not the ones we needed. The only one who will make any of the other teams players nervous is Pronger and that will just be from dirty plays on his part as he won't be fast enough to hit the elite from other countries. Weber hits but not like Phaneuf. Imagine Phaneuf catching Ovechkin or Kovalchuk with one of his open ice checks. Game changing. No one else is going to provide that. Our defence is not intimidating.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2009 :  22:07:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that Bouwmeester off the team is not something I would have done. However, I was at the recent Oilers/Kings game. 3 row club seats. I watched Doughty outplay every other player on the ice. He's no pylon.

As far as Weber over Phaneuf??? We'll I won't get into the same things we have argued before. Although the Weber pick was a bit of surprise to me, Phaneuf is not my number 7 or 8 guy.

And last time I checked, intimidation didn't win hockey games. I never watched Neidermayer intimidate anyone, ever. He has won at every level he has ever played at.

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Canucks Man
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Canada
1547 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  00:57:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Excuse me Slozo, I do not appreiciate being called a liar, I did NOT have Mike Green on my Team Canada, and guess what, Neither did the guys picking the FRIGGIN Team! So really stop being bitter because a guy you picked didn't make it, He didn't earn it. Simple as that.

CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  06:31:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex

So, everyone was talking about the Nash-Crosby-Iginla line, but with Bergeron on the team, it seems like he and Crosby are going to be paired. Does anyone else really want to see the Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash combination reunited?



Finally someone else agrees with me I have been talking about that line the whole time

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  08:01:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I agree that Bouwmeester off the team is not something I would have done. However, I was at the recent Oilers/Kings game. 3 row club seats. I watched Doughty outplay every other player on the ice. He's no pylon.

As far as Weber over Phaneuf??? We'll I won't get into the same things we have argued before. Although the Weber pick was a bit of surprise to me, Phaneuf is not my number 7 or 8 guy.

And last time I checked, intimidation didn't win hockey games. I never watched Neidermayer intimidate anyone, ever. He has won at every level he has ever played at.




Tough, physical, intimidating hockey has always been how Canada plays. We've been fairly successful at it too.

Doughty outplaying any Oiler player is hardly remarkable. And I did not say he was a pylon. I pointed out the deficiencies I saw from him and stated he is not ready for this team. I stand by that.

Neidermayer has been a player on TEAMS that have won at every level. His role on those TEAMS was not one of intimidation. But Neidermayer didn't win at every level all by himself did he. Very disingenuous to put it like you did.


Edited by - willus3 on 12/31/2009 08:03:44
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  08:46:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man

Excuse me Slozo, I do not appreiciate being called a liar, I did NOT have Mike Green on my Team Canada, and guess what, Neither did the guys picking the FRIGGIN Team! So really stop being bitter because a guy you picked didn't make it, He didn't earn it. Simple as that.

CANUCKS RULE!!!


I dont know if Slozo left a message on your voicemail calling you a liar personally, but no need to get angry. As for your opinion I dont think this was a cut and dry decision in any way shape or form. Do I think Green is way better offensively than the other defenseman selected, no. Are his stats superior, yes. I think his offense although better statistically than the others selected and the defenseman selected in front of him have a more complete game, some have been refered to as shutdown guys. No one is suggesting Green is a shutdown defenseman. My thought are if an injury occurs or a player withdraws, Green and Bouwmeester will be on the short list.

Happy with other selections. To be honest havent seen Bergeron play in a while and can't evaluate his skills, but if other validate him and suggest it is a good pick I'm happy. From who I have seen this year, I am unhappy about the no pick on Doan and Smyth. Can you remember a Canadian team in the last 12 years that these 2 hadn't been a part of and they are in no way slumping or playing a lessor game right now. Those are a couple of heart and soul guys. Wish they had room for them.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  08:55:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I agree that Bouwmeester off the team is not something I would have done. However, I was at the recent Oilers/Kings game. 3 row club seats. I watched Doughty outplay every other player on the ice. He's no pylon.

As far as Weber over Phaneuf??? We'll I won't get into the same things we have argued before. Although the Weber pick was a bit of surprise to me, Phaneuf is not my number 7 or 8 guy.

And last time I checked, intimidation didn't win hockey games. I never watched Neidermayer intimidate anyone, ever. He has won at every level he has ever played at.




Tough, physical, intimidating hockey has always been how Canada plays. We've been fairly successful at it too.

Doughty outplaying any Oiler player is hardly remarkable. And I did not say he was a pylon. I pointed out the deficiencies I saw from him and stated he is not ready for this team. I stand by that.

Neidermayer has been a player on TEAMS that have won at every level. His role on those TEAMS was not one of intimidation. But Neidermayer didn't win at every level all by himself did he. Very disingenuous to put it like you did.





I agree with both of you. Because, first of all, every player has their good and bad games. Maybe Doughty had a great game when you saw him Beans and he had an aweful game when you watched him play willus. So I agree with Beans that Doughty has the ability to outplay the other teams on some nights. But really I agree with Willus because a young player is still looking for his consistency. He will have more of those bad games then a veteran like Bouwmeester. And Bouwmeester has been consistent his whole career.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  08:58:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How are my comments disingenuous and yours are not??? I don't get that. You say that 2 games between Bouwmeester and Weber and one game between Doughty and Phaneuf and that tells the tale of who should play and who should stay home?? I know that you watch a ton of Flames hockey but have you watched the same amount of Nashville or Kings hockey??

I completely agree that the Canadian MO has always been big and strong. But intimidating??? What??? I have never understood that. Do you think that any of these players in the Olympics are intimidated by another player??

I can't see Ovechkin(or any other hockey player) is sitting at home right now looking over the Canadian roster going,' Geez, glad that Phenuef isn't playing. He's intimidating!!"


Now I believe if we are talking about pure physical play, where is Canada lacking?? Are we forgetting about Chris Pronger?? Possibly the meanest SOB in the game??

With all due respect, Phaneuf and Green are in the same boat. Both brilliant at the thing they are good at but not stand out in the other things defensemen should do. Is Phaneuf a better hitter than the other Canadian d-man. Ya, I could agree with that. But does he bring anything else to the table that you could say is better than any other Canadian d-men??? More importantly, can one not quite easily say that Phaneuf would be at the bottom of this group defensively???

I think that Yzerman and the group were very clear in their picks that they did not want anyone viewed as a potential liabiity to the team. Steady and solid across the board. Their defensive group averages 6'3" and 210 lbs.

Personally, I would rather have 6-7 great all around defensemen than 5-6 great all around defensemen and a couple singular specialists.

And that is why I think Bouwmeester should have been on this team but have no issue with Phanuef not being there.
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Guest4803
( )

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  10:38:46  Reply with Quote
leaving mike green off the team will be a big mistake the guy has as many pts as iginla (tied for 20th) and is in the top 10 in the league in plus minus. In 06 our powerplay was a crappy 13%, they should of taken green as the 6th or 7th guy for pp situations im not saying put him out with 2 mins to go in a tied game but if you needed someone to run a powerplay who better then the guy that has lead defenseman in the last 2 years and is on pace to come close to beating coffey to 200 goals. Our pp needs to be up near 25-50% at the olympics. He would be the Ryan Ellis of the team. Everyone thinks hes terrible on defense but look at washingtons d line there isnt much help and he still has one of the top plus minuses out there.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  10:49:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4803

leaving mike green off the team will be a big mistake the guy has as many pts as iginla (tied for 20th) and is in the top 10 in the league in plus minus. In 06 our powerplay was a crappy 13%, they should of taken green as the 6th or 7th guy for pp situations im not saying put him out with 2 mins to go in a tied game but if you needed someone to run a powerplay who better then the guy that has lead defenseman in the last 2 years and is on pace to come close to beating coffey to 200 goals. Our pp needs to be up near 25-50% at the olympics. He would be the Ryan Ellis of the team. Everyone thinks hes terrible on defense but look at washingtons d line there isnt much help and he still has one of the top plus minuses out there.

I smell controversy hear. Green and Iginla stats are a match and I was wondering earlier if Iginla was going to pick it up to justify a 1st line consideration. I love his style of play and watch him year after year. Glad someone else made the comment 1st though. Green is a glorified winger playing out of position on defense. Hey its not a bad thing just ask Coffey. I still say Green or Bouwmeester will get the call once a player goes down. It'll happen.
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  11:07:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have reviewed this team several times. I am a day late, as yesterday was extremley busy and i was way too tired. So, I got the news at 6am this morning.

I'm torn, very torn.

Goalies, I agree 100%. No doubt.

Defence... hm... Of course you can replace Doughty with a number of other D-men, and the team may be just as good. If not better, in my opinion.

One of those d-men being, Bowmeester.

Forwards.. A couple of surprises. I'm not saying they are not great players, but I see a couple of players omitted that could fill in a few slots.

Surprises for me, sort of (slight): Eric Staal & Jonathon Toews.

Players that could fill these slots: Shane Doan & Martin St. Luis.

But, this team should not be a big risk for Canada. GOLD!

Irvine/prez.

Edited by - irvine on 12/31/2009 11:07:52
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  11:13:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's another things to consider. Maybe Canada learned from their mistakes of the past as well as fed off their successes.

Let's look at the defensive Groups from the last 4 Olympic Games.

1998 - The team went 3-0 in the prelims only to lose to the Czecks in a shoot out and the Fins in the Medal Round.

Rob Blake
Ray Bourque
Eric Desjardins
Adam Foote
Al MacInnis (PP Specialist)
Chris Pronger
Scott Stevens

2002 - The Gold Medal Team
Rob Blake
Eric Brewer
Adam Foote
Ed Jovonovski
Al MacInnis (PP Specialist)
Scott Neidermayer

2006 - 7th Place

Rob Blake
Jay Bouwmeester
Adam Foote
Ed Jovonovksi
Brian McCabe
Scott Neidermayer
Chris Pronger
Wade Redden
Robyn Regher
(Taxi Squad - Dan Boyle)


The team that finished the worst had very specialized players such as Regehr as a 'defensive' defensemen and McCable and Redden as Offensive specialist.

The most successful team had a balance of defensemen that were not bad in anything and not specialists in anything. With the exception of maybe MacInnis at that point being a PP specialists.

Specialists do not win Medals. Balance wins medals.
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
376 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  12:06:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As much as I hate to admit it I agree with Slozo here. MIKE GREEN SHOULD BE ON THIS TEAM!!! Dress him as a 4th line winger for all I care but when the PP comes around in a 1-1 game with 10 minutes to go against Russia I want him back theyre. Like everybody has said all these players play each and every role on theyre respective NHL teams, so the 4th line PK specialist that you have to keep off the ice is a non issue. You got a ton of other guys that can do that allready. Now Bowmester not being on this team is a huge mistake. He should definitly be on this team over Doughty and playing over Seabrook. At the end of the day I hope it doesn't matter and we take the Gold but I would have definitly had these two guys on my team.

Now the Phaneuf argument. No he should not be on this team. He has played himself off this team over the past two seasons now.

Forwards I am really surprised to see Burgeron on this team. I dont think he should have this spot over a St.Louis or even Stamkos.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2009 :  12:08:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Al Macinnis was not a power play specialist . . . this is a ridiculous title to give him, and only someone really reaching to make a point would call him that. He was an all around very good defenceman, he also had a tonne of blocked shots, and he just happened to have the hardest slapshot around.

Canada learned from their mistakes? Not likely . . . they are still leaving off some of the biggest talents.

And saying that losing to Hasek 1-0 is a fault of the defensive core is disingenuous and ridiculous to say the least . . . these are laughable points.

And Willus made fair points, and QUALIFIED them, but you Beans have again twisted his words in requoting him. THAT is disingenuous.

I agree with Willus about Doughty over Bouwmeester, that to me is a huge error in judgement. And he makes a fair point about Phaneuf over Weber, one I can't comment on too much as I don't stay up late enough to watch very much of Phaneuf, and I never see Nashville obviously. But the point about Canada only having one intimidating defenceman is a fair point, Pronger is indeed the only one to be wary of. I think we needed another big body in Bouwmeester, one who is very skilled and experienced, and we needed a Green to help qb the power play and finish off those rushes with your skilled forwards.

It's funny Beans, to suit your points, you highlight different things . . . but in your own argument about when Canada was most and least successful, you bring up a point that only bolsters mine about Green:

Canada was most successful with a team made of two guys who were pure offence, with maybe Al providing a bit of D (Blake and Macinnis), three all-around solid players led by Niedermayer (Foote, Jovocop), and Brewer, who was a "defensive specialist".

Canada NEEDS a pure offence guy like Blake was - always a threat on the rush to score, great shot on the power play with Macinnis, and he left the defence to his partner . . . BECAUSE THE OPPOSING TEAM WAS ALWAYS ON THEIR HEELS WHEN HE WAS ON THE ICE.

The best defence is a scary offense, coupled with players who are very solid in their own end.

Whose end would you rather spend more time in . . . Russia's, or Canada's?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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