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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2014 :  09:20:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
with the way the season has begun and the way the last 4 years have gone for the Oilers is it time to move one of their young talented fowards to address their defensive and goaltending needs?

who would you move?

personally i wouldn t blow the team up or anything but i think i would try and get some return for Yakupov, I think if he stays in Edm under Eakins his value will diwindel to nothing, it just doesnt seem to be a good fit for him and with the excess in talent up front he seems the logical player to be moved


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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3670 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2014 :  12:54:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Keep Taylor Hall. Everyone else is expendable for the right price.

EDIT - of course, only referring to their bevvy of young stars (Eberle, RNH, Shultz, Yakupov). They have some other good pieces on the team.

Edited by - nuxfan on 10/19/2014 12:59:32
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markliso
Rookie



Canada
104 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2014 :  20:32:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes it is time.

I have no idea where to start, it's a mess. I've always liked Eberle, soft spot in my heart and I do like Hall. I would keep those two. I agree with nuxfan (I can't believe I just said that... I have rarely agreed with a Canucks Fan) but everyone else is expendable.

This is starting to break my heart. Really though, this is a comedy of errors. It's not just the players, it's management, coaching, and all the other decisions they have screwed up on. Get rid of Lowe and then make some trades to send a message, it's time to shake this core up.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2014 :  21:30:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Radio guys the other day were saying there were rumours going around about 2-3 teams "veey interested in Yakupov" and had begun discussions as to who it may take going the other way to aquire him? I believe CBJ was one team that was mentioned but can't recall the other (s )?
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2014 :  06:36:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep, the vultures are circling this team. Big first win of the season last night, they caught a break with Hedman out.

I have a feeling though that with the way things have gone in the past . . . no big moves will be made. Teams are just very, very reluctant to deal talented first round draft picks, especially with the potential upside of a Yakupov or RNH.

Might make some minor moves, and I'm sure they'll chug along and slowly work themselves up to the top of the dung heap . . . that is to say, they'll finish 10th or 11th.

Screw the Habs. Boston Sucks. Bah Humbug, DeadWings . . . and yes, oh yes, Go LEAFS Go!!! Yeah, it's offseason baby!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2014 :  15:06:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not one of those people that think they need to blow it up now. Give them till the 20 game mark to find out if it broke enough to require an overhaul.

But I know where I would start. With a total cap hit of $70 million and $3 million cap space, I'd start with playing some money ball and find out how to trim the payroll to the floor. I'd start by moving RNH and Shultz, not because they are the biggest problems the Oilers need to address, but really the biggest problem the Oilers need to address is they are close to the max of the $ Cap with a perennial losing team. To be completely honest they need to find an expensive positive from the roster and sell high, because the market value for any Oilers player is at an all time low.

Need to trade away the losing culture. We have all talked about MacT and Lowe long enough, it should have happened by now, if it was gonna. I don't know if it would be enough to remove those 2 just to put better management and coaches, would be enough without blowing up the roster. To be honest, MacT has done enough to say he is not the problem, at least he isn't the biggest problem, but for me Lowe hasn't done enough to prove he isn't the biggest problem. I honestly don't know if Scotty Bowman and Ken Hitchcock together could right this ship.
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  09:23:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Not one of those people that think they need to blow it up now. Give them till the 20 game mark to find out if it broke enough to require an overhaul.

But I know where I would start. With a total cap hit of $70 million and $3 million cap space, I'd start with playing some money ball and find out how to trim the payroll to the floor. I'd start by moving RNH and Shultz, not because they are the biggest problems the Oilers need to address, but really the biggest problem the Oilers need to address is they are close to the max of the $ Cap with a perennial losing team. To be completely honest they need to find an expensive positive from the roster and sell high, because the market value for any Oilers player is at an all time low.

Need to trade away the losing culture. We have all talked about MacT and Lowe long enough, it should have happened by now, if it was gonna. I don't know if it would be enough to remove those 2 just to put better management and coaches, would be enough without blowing up the roster. To be honest, MacT has done enough to say he is not the problem, at least he isn't the biggest problem, but for me Lowe hasn't done enough to prove he isn't the biggest problem. I honestly don't know if Scotty Bowman and Ken Hitchcock together could right this ship.



Hey, you're using my old avatar! I'll take it as a compliment, as I designed/made it myself.

You make an excellent point about the "moneyball" thing . . . the Oilers are NOT the Leafs, they cannot afford to spend nearly up to the cap, and yet have nothing to show for it.

I think for the Oilers, it starts more with what they really NEED, and what it might take to get that, and then going from there.

I think #1 is a goalie for them, and #2 is a couple of big gritty forwards, hopefully at least one that can also put the puck in the net occasionally. #3 is a shutdown defenceman.

For #1 - they should really look at Reimer in Toronto, he'd be awesome. Cheap, and somewhat proven as a starter. At the very least, he'd bring stability. If you deal a Yakupov, you may be able to get a draft pick as well; if it's someone with more value (RNH or Eberle), you're getting a Franson, or better alongside (Lupul? Kadri?). Just thoughts.

My second option for #1, is that they should do something crazy like sign Brodeur. He'd come at 1.5 mil, maybe 2, and he instantly stabilises thing for the year.

For #2 and #3 . . . gosh, it's hard to say. Tonnes of players you'd want, hard to tell who's available.

But you get the picture . . . target some potentially available players, and dangle anyone from Yakupov to RNH/Eberle if they are very high-end.



Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  14:02:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yakupov, Pouliot, and a 1rst , for Ward and Eric Staal,

that gives the oilers a big strong proven number 1 center, and a goalie i think is good enough to bounce back, they move Yakupov and move some salary with Pouliot ,, i think this could work

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markliso
Rookie



Canada
104 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  16:21:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pasty, just one comment about your above post, I do agree with most things you said except the "wait 20 games". We've been waiting a good 240 games for this, so our patience is wearing thin.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2014 :  15:16:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
5 in a row maybe we spoke too sonn, must say they looked real good against the habs 2 nights ago

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2014 :  08:07:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Really?? Moneyball?? That makes so much sense!! Think of possibly the worst climate in North America where there is a losing culture where the team has had to over spend on virtually every free agent for the past decade and think of ways to spend less money?? How does that make any sense?? Honestly, I shake my head at the thinking of people some times.

Why is it that the Oilers can't afford to pay to the cap and lose like the Leafs? Is it their sold out barn every night?? Is it the line up of corporate sponsors on the waiting list for boxes and board advertising?? Is it their new stadium being built?? Or is it one of the riches owners in the league?? Again, shake my head at the thinking of people.

The Oilers are the 5th iteration of a new team in 8 years. There are 6 players on the team that are left on that squad since MacT took over as GM. So one thing they do need a little time. Let's look at this squad at the 20 game mark.

Finally, the biggest weakness of this team is at centre. They have RNH who is a legit but smaller sized centre. Draisaitl will be legit but he needs to keep developing. Sadly, the team has no one else that can play the position so he has to stay rather than going down to W. After that, every player at the position would be considered a marginal AHL at best. They have Boyd Gordon but he's not anything more than a 4th line centre. They could also use one stud defensemen. After that, the rest is bonus material. Sure, a top tier goalie would be nice but switching out Scrivins for a player like Reimer is like taking the Smirnoff vodka out of your liquor cabinet and replacing it with Silent Sam. Neither are Grey Goose.


The Oilers needs, in order, are:

1 - 2nd line centre
2 - 3rd line centre
3 - Stud defensemen
4 - Elite goalie



Edited by - Beans15 on 10/30/2014 12:55:20
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2014 :  18:45:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans question then for you, would you move say Yakupov or another one of the young core players to address one of the needs you have mentioned, or would you stay the course, give Nurse and Marincin or Kleftbom time to become that d-man the Oilers are missing? I am fairley confident with time Draisaitl will be much more than a number 2 center, Number 3 centers are easy enough to find,

the big issue i see is goaltending, there really is no bluechip prospect ready to push for a spot, maybe Brossoit,,

I mean there is this media pushed hype that its time for the oilers to take a huge step forward but the elite talent of this team are all still under 23 years old, its not like this teams window is closeing, it hasnt opened yet,

my only question is there too much of the same kind of talent on this team?

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2014 :  10:24:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good question Pasty. I think the Oilers will be fine at defense in a few years but still not sure if any of the guys you mentioned (Marincin, Klefbom, Nurse) are that stud guy. That will likely be the Oilers 2/3/4 in the near future and that's a nice core. But I don't think Schultz will be the legit #1 that some think he will. Unfortunately I don't think the Oilers have the assets to move someone(s) for that stud without creating a deficiency in another area.

As far as Yakupov goes, no I do not move him. I do not move Nuge, Eberle, Hall, Yakupov, or Draisaitl for anything. That is a core that can be built around for years to come. It's been a very small sample but Yakupov is already playing better hockey than he ever has as an NHL player this season. Further, Perron is a UFA next year and likely looking for a raise. I'd rather see Perron traded or move on and spend the money on Yakupov who I think is or will be a better player than Perron and is younger.

An elite goalie would help in the short term but it's also been proven that a good goalie is needed to win the cup, not a great one. Sure there are guys like Quick and Raask that have won the Cup. So has Crawford, Ward, Neimi, etc. Scrivins is fine for now but an upgrade would also help. But not at the sacrifice of on of the 5 key assets the Oilers have as a core.

They shouldn't move for almost anything. Now, if a Weber/Doughty type player could be picked up then all bets are off. But that is unlikely. Very unlikely.


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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 11/01/2014 :  10:14:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
maybe grab Martin Jones in a few years when he out grows the back up role in L.A,

What you say makes sense Beans, during the Edmonton Montreal game they showed a stats comparison between Galchenyuk and Yakupov, and something i noticed for all the people raveing that Galchenyuk is going to break out and that he was the best player from that draft, their stats are almost the same, besides a difference in pluys minus which can be attributed to the quality of teams they have played for each have great stats for a young player in this league.

I ll admitt before that game i had read afew article saying drafting Yakupov was a mistake and so on, and paid attention to the hype and I thought maybe it was time to move Yakupov,

but that game has changed my mind i think you got to let him become the player he can be and i think hes getting a bad rap

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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2014 :  09:52:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, good to have the ever-loveable Beans back, still shaking his head I see.

He makes some some good points, but the problem with his conclusion on the Oiler's needs - something he roughly agrees with most of us on, except perhaps the order - is that, he doesn't want to trade anything of value. And yet, to get value, you have to offer value . . . that's just the way it works.

I agree with Beans in that there's no need to have a sell-off . . . but that being said, I really do think now is the time for them to strike with that one big trade, dealing one of their top 4 or 5 forwards. They could, if dealing RNH, Eberle or Yakupov get a premium Defenceman AND a serviceable 3rd line centre, IMHO.

But they won't. GM's, as I said before, just HATE to give up on pretty talented draftees . . . and I suspect the Oil will get stuck in the cycle for some time.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2014 :  11:13:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't disagree in that one must give up quality to get quality. The challenge is the Oilers depth is so shallow is some positions that giving up quality doesn't add to the team, it just shuffles a problem from one spot to another.

The Oilers are very shallow in the depth chart.






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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2014 :  13:50:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I decided to hold off my comments while Edmonton was on a winning streak and see if the team was starting to climb the standings, but after the 3 game losing streak and the fact they sit 27th in a 30 man league, I figure its time to comment again.

I understand what you are saying with regards to an Edmonton sell off Bean's. Your right they can afford to be at the max and they are selling out games. Not hard to do in Alberta even with a losing team. My point was more inclined to your last point, depth. Its the biggest drawback to the Oilers lineup and something you cant spend your way out of when you are pressed to the cap.

The other point you made when you talked about the untouchable players that the Oilers can build around, is also one of my biggest disagreements. You forget that none of these untouchable players have any playoff experience and are a big part of the losing culture in Edmonton. Edmonton needs to gain a winning culture to groom these players into winners. The untouchable players from your list combined with the management really cant change a losing culture in Edmonton. I am not saying lose them all and start new, but a few are expendable and would give the message to the rest that this team will not tolerate a losing culture anymore.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2014 :  13:54:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

[/quote]

Hey, you're using my old avatar! I'll take it as a compliment, as I designed/made it myself.

[/quote]

Im liking the Tomotoes until a better Sen's avatar becomes available.
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1755 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2014 :  14:10:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey guys, late to the party here and have to confess that I didn't read it al above.

Time to trade for sure. I mean, perhaps they will eventually gel, but it obviously isn't going to be this year by the looks of it and how long have we been saying, 'next year!'. We sound like a bunch of gambling addicts doubling down on the next hand as we lose the previous one.

I think they need some veteran 'winning' leadership (I mean real vets, over 30 years old, preferably 33+) remove a couple of the young studs (Yakupov?) and get some role players in who are willing to take the roles on. And for the love of god tell Taylor Hall to slow his roll! The guy is going to have a short-ass career if he keeps playing the way he does.
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
365 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2014 :  14:19:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"but switching out Scrivins for a player like Reimer is like taking the Smirnoff vodka out of your liquor cabinet and replacing it with Silent Sam. Neither are Grey Goose."

HAHAHA! Awesome Beans!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2014 :  14:48:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I also did a comparison for the Oilers as I was looking up Sens/Leafs stats and found them in the bottom 10 for most stats except for penalty kill, which is great. 5/5 the Oilers stink, as usual, which makes me think the top heavy lineup, aint as good as other seem to think it is and is better balanced on the back end and defensively sound players. To me it brings it back to the point of not having enough 2way defensively sound players. Too much of a push on offensive players and not enough on backchecking players, unless on the penalty kill. I am not saying scoring more wouldn't help, therefore looking to upgrade the top 6 might be the way to go, just that this core isn't (and hasn't been for years) 5/5 strong.
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markliso
Rookie



Canada
104 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2014 :  02:48:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with so many things stated above, but the "let's look at it 20 games from now" rhetoric has got to be getting old... Every year, "let's wait and see guys" and "don't panic yet guys, it's only 10 games in and we stink, but it's ok, give them some time guys".

So many mistakes have already been made , so I can see where you are coming from stating let's give them some time and let them work together. I wholeheartedly agree there. BUT, there is a constant in all of this, and that is the core, and I am seriously starting to question and doubt that the core has it in them. Not saying they don't, but a shake-up could really get some of these other players motivated.

It is frustrating to see our team be the laughing stock of the NHL, year after year, and maybe after another 2-3 years we will get it right.

I would keep Hall. Draisatl possibly keep but I would have never kept him past the 9 game mark. Everyone else, go open season. Now, hear me out, I'm not saying TRADE THEM ALL, I'm just saying no one else should be safe. Maybe one or two trades is all it takes, but why does Yakupov continue to be untouchable? Why can't we get size and skill out of RNH?

It's time for change. Management is already all screwed up, time to look at the core and make a dent in it.
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blade
Rookie



Canada
199 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2014 :  10:07:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
blow dem up! how long do their fans have to wait. Even the most diehard fans have to be getting tired by now

get rid of Eberle. He is the only one on the team with any real value right now and that is propped up because of his success on team Canada and the fact everyone loves him. You could probably get a good goalie for him. Scrivens is a joke. He can't handle the puc worth a bag of beans.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2014 :  07:38:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the Oilers are in a traditional position near the bottom of the NHL standing. An interesting change this year is that, at this point, if the Oilers played only Eastern Conference teams they would be on pace for 123 pts. If they played only Western Conference teams they would be on pace for 12 pts. They simply can not beat the West!

A few others points:

-Taylor Hall is not a reckless player. He plays hard and on the edge, but he is not reckless and does not need to change his game.

-No one can know what the core Oilers will do in the playoffs until they get there. Hall, Eberle, Nuge, Yakupov were all winners as Juniors. John Toews was a winner in Juniors and a winner once he got to the playoffs. Dumping those guys because they don't have playoff experience would be dumb. No one was dumping John Toews or Patrick Kane when they didn't make the playoffs early in their career.

-One of the big issues with the team this year is their free agents have not played well. Actually, they have been terrible. Purcell and Pouloit and Nikitan have been terrible. Fayne has been ok. Having these key adds to the team play like complete garbage has been the biggest disappointment.

-The Oilers have a decent amount of those 2 way defensive players. Ferrance, Nikitan (playing well), Fayne are all 2 way defensive defensemen and Hendricks, Gordon, Joensuu, Eberle, Arcobello, and Perron are all responsible 2 way forwards. That's 9 of the 18 skaters on the roster.

-The Oilers goalies have been below average at best. Some nights they have been terrible. However, I think if you went back to the tapes and watched the goals the Oilers allowed you would notice a common trend. That is, 40%-50% of their goals allowed are with three or more of their defensive players below the goal line and the guy scoring the goal wide open in front of the net. Wide open. The goalies, in many cases, have zero chance.

-There is more issue with coaching on this team than with talent. I was never a fan of Eakins and I still don't like the way Krueger was released. Not saying the team would be better with Krueger but I don't think Eakins is the guy. Truth be told, he has not been able to hold the players accountable. The accountability to want to win is the players responsibility. But with 23 players and an 82 game season, it's not always there every night. It's on the coach night after night after night to be able to bring out the best. Eakins simply has not done that.

-The Oilers are 6-9-1 through 16 games and 5-5-0 in their last 10. If they play .500 through the rest of the season they will have an 82 pt season. Not enough to make the playoffs but that would be a 15 pt jump year over year.


-This team can't win for losing. The fans and this city are so fickle at this point, if they win the comments are they should win and if they lose the masses start looking for their pound of flesh. At this point, Oilers fans are worse than Leaf fans and it has turned this 30+ year die hard hockey fan into a by-stander because fans in this city are complete garbage.


That is all.


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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1755 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2014 :  11:41:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"and it has turned this 30+ year die hard hockey fan into a by-stander because fans in this city are complete garbage."

Well that is fickle if I've ever heard it

I think you're arguing semantics about Hall. 'On edge'? 'Reckless'? Take your pick. He will have a short career if he keeps it up. He has to be smarter before he is forced to be. And by that time he'll be gun-shy.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2014 :  13:54:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leigh, a normally very wise poser, I must disagree with you. Did you see how the injury occurred?? It was far from a reckless play. His game is no different than a Phil Kessel, James Neal, Corey Perry, or any other player who's skill set is built on taking the puck hard to the net. He changes his game and he is not the same player and not likely as effective. Reckless he is not, and there is a huge difference between playing on the edge and being reckless.

As far as my comments about being a by-stander, let me clarify. I am still and always will be a fan. I just rarely engage in the conversations. I listen to less sports radio. I don't watch the analysis stuff. I am just sick of hearing about it from so called fans that never have anything good to say. Even when the Oilers win people are talking garbage in this city. That is the part I am being a bystander on.


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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2014 :  14:21:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, just to take some of what you said into perspective, the Oilers are on a current run of playing 50/50 hockey which is better than there seasonal average of 35/65 and would need a complete turnaround of more like a 65/35 average in wins to make the playoffs, yet you disagree with a roster overhaul. You listed the 9 - 2way players who are decently defensively, while also saying the goaltending is not strong, but that most of the goals are wide open nets where the goaltender is hung out to dry. You talk about how Hall plays with the edge, but disagree that he will have a shortened career because of it. You disagree with the suggestion that some of Edmontons top end talent should be expendable, but you are suggesting, as have been the case for a decade, that the problem doesn't lie in the roster but in the coaching.

I am going to suggest the problem is now in the roster, by using your words, the roster is not responding to the coach. There has been a decent improvement in the overall game, that I have seen, just not in 5 on 5 results, wherein lies the problem. I agree that in minors and juniors this roster has post season experience, but outside of a few players who are newer and having career bad years, no nhl playoff experience. The problem is the top end star players who cant get results at the top tier hockey level, except in individual stats. Its time the Oilers stop looking on the backend, 2way level and start looking on the top 6 for the next step, towards a playoff hockey team. My 2 cents.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 11/13/2014 14:25:00
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2014 :  08:19:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, let's look at what I said and clarify as some people seem to be reading between the lines and making assumptions:

1) Taylor Hall - he plays on the edge but is not a reckless player. No one talks about Phil Kessel or Alex Ovechkin having shorter careers because they play a fast paced, go to the net kind of game. Taylor Hall has played in 85% of the possible game he could have in his career. That includes missing significant time to repair a shoulder issue that was literally year old. So, I ask. What is the factual evidence that would lead to the assumption that he would have a shorter career??

2) I thought it was clear when I talked about the coaching but perhaps I was not. The Oilers team defense is terrible. That is based on the system the coach asks the players to play. You could put a squad of the top defensive forward and defensemen in the NHL and if they are playing a ridiculous system where there is likely 3 or more defensive players below the red line, they will likely allow a whole bunch of goals to player open in the slot.

3) The Oilers played 50 games last season as one of the worst 5 teams in the league. They played the last 30 as one of the top 10 teams in the league. This year they are 6-9-2 in 17 games. That puts them a total of 2ish games under .500 on straight wins and .411 on points. They are also 5-4-1 in their last 10. What is so far fetched about them playing .500 hockey?? They are doing it, or are very close to it, now.

4) At not times during this conversation has me or anyone else had the delusions that this is playoff team. No one.

5) Back to coaching for a second: Name a single successful team that has changed coaches and systems 5 times in 8 years and has never had a stretch of 2 straight years under the same system??? The problem may not even be coaching, its the lack of a consistent system and approach.

6) I agree the team shouldn't be looking at the 2 way level. The issues and needs are not there. They need a legit top line centre, a legit #3 centre, a stud defensemen, and eventually an elite goalie. If they get the first three they are a playoff team. If they get the elite goalie and a few depth players who are winner, they are a top 10 team in the league.


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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1755 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2014 :  16:16:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, I hope you meant "poster" not "poser" haha!

Still can't agree with you on Hall. Living in the West I get to see my share of Oiler games. I love the kid's heart but he is reckless and I've been saying it for several years. Using that net crash as an example - I watched that game live on TV and I knew one stride past the blue line (in real time) that he wasn't going to make it. He was too wide, had too much speed, and the D-man had the line. There was no way he was going to make it, but he went for it anyway because he thought he could out muscle the guy (who had way better body position). It was ridiculous. I think a more mature player would have known that was an incredibly low risk to reward play and that the chance for injury if you force it was incredibly high. Like I said, I love his heart and I'm a Hall fan, but this sort of thing plays out over and over again in his career. He's a runaway freight train, and obviously it pays off for him as he is a good producer, but he (and all Edmonton fans) will have to realize at some point sooner or later that there is a heavy price to pay for that style of play. That price comes in the form of lost man games throughout a season, and/or a shortened career.

But I'm cool to agree to disagree.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2014 :  22:51:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you Beans on the roster spots to fill to turn the Oilers around. The problem is there isn't the room on the roster (payroll wise) to fill the needs the Oilers have. They need to trim salary to fill the holes, which is why I suggested playing moneyball with the roster. By moneyball I don't mean, sell high, sell everybody, but sell smart replace at a lower cap hit for similar skill set. Basically stop setting the market price for potential and replace with proven 5-10 year veterans with similar skill set without the outrageous price tags. Oilers are paying large for there former high draft picks without getting winning results, and are only dropping the weakest of the players on the trade wire, but could be reaping the benefits of there unfulfilled potential in trade asset return. Don't let the fruit hang on the vine until its spoiled. Again, I don't mean everyone, just enough to give the team breathing room from the cap, so they can fill holes as they become apparent, of which we both agree there are plenty.

I still don't yet subscribe to the notion the coach is the problem. Blame the system if you want, but I doubt Eakins is saying to the players on the ice, lock up the back of the net, but expose the front of it. To me its a lack of maturity, commitment and individuals being puck chasers, rather than a commitment to protecting the shooters and shooting lanes. I just don't think Eakins in the coach saying, don't worry the goaltenders got this. I would rather give him a chance, by giving him a changed culture of players he has to work with.from career NHL losers to this point, to players who have felt like winners on a team level in the NHL. Colorado doesn't win the cup without Roy, neither does New York without Messier. You need winners to inspire winners, especially for a team which has been losers for a decade straight.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2014 :  23:03:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speaking of moneyball strategy for a moment, we all probably agree that Calgary was a year or 2 behind the best return they could have gotten on the Iginla, Kipper, Tanguay, Bouwmeester etc sweepstakes, but who can argue with the results once the finally pulled the trigger. This is how you perform an overhaul when the dream does not meet the reality. Im excited for the future in Calgary, still ho humming the future for Edmonton.
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markliso
Rookie



Canada
104 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2014 :  20:27:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes! Too many coaches (and management turmoil) in X amount of years has really had a negative impact on this team. Even though I do not believe Eakins is the man for the job here, I don't know what kind of impact another coach will have...

I still think a trade or two to shake up this core is needed. But the trade really needs to make sense and we need an immediate effect, not prospects or guys who will develop in the future.

Kipper retired.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2014 :  14:57:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leigh, I certainly did not mean poser. Typo. my bad. We will have to agree to disagree as I see Hall as the same aggressive type of player as Kane, Ovechkin, Kessel, Seguin, et al. No one talks about those guys being reckless players but Hall, for some reason, has been branded as such. It's a media thing more than anything else. It's also the price one pays for being the fastest, or minimally one of the top 5 fastest guys in the league.

To the moneyball comments, again, I have to ask how Edmonton is expected to do that when they have had to overpay their free agents for most of the past 10 years. In a salary cap world, players will get paid market value virtually anywhere. So if a guy will be getting $4 million a year playing in Edmonton or in Tampa, which one would he more likely pick??

To the point about not having room under the cap?? The Oilers have the 16th highest cap hit. They have almost $6 million of room under the cap for this year and they have only 6 players making $4 million or more/season. How much more can they do?? Sure, they aren't in the position like Calgary and Phoenix who have $10+ million and are competitive.

I like the point of Calgary being brought up because I think most anyone would agree that, at least offensively, Calgary does not have the talent that Edmonton has today. So why are they such a better team?? It's called coaching. And I agree that I don't think Eakins is out there preaching to have 3 defenders behind the red line, but it's his fault on two fronts. Firstly, the team never played like that before he arrived. They were a bad team full of bad talent. Today, they are bad team full of decent talent. Secondly, if it is the guys on the ice who are playing like that, who's job is it to hold them accountable??


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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2014 :  20:37:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kessel and Kane go to the net?!? Um . . . ok . . . and Seguin too?!?

I think we're watching different hockey. Hell, I KNOW we are.

Kessel is fast on the wing, with some playmaking. There is a reason though that he almost never gets injured and plays a full season every year . . . he does not get his nose dirty.

Seguin is nearly identical, which is why Boston got rid of both, despite the fantastic talent of both - didn't fit the mold of defensively sound=ish, or at least go the net hard and get your nose dirty players.

Kane I put in the same category, although he's certainly got a bit more moxy to him - but not much IMHO. He just happens to be labelled as a winner on an excellent team.

Hall has the same skill level as those guys, all in the same range certainly . . . but he DOES go hard into the boards, in the corners, and he tries a more Crosby game that way - unafraid of physical contact. I honestly look at it as reckless, and called it as a potential career ender/shortener about 2 years back . . . and I don't see that changing.

Only guy I agree who goes hard to the net is Ovie . . . but even he only does it half the time now, from what I've seen. He's become much more of a periphery player (still a physical beast when he wants to be).

And finally . . . only one big reason really, along with a bunch of more insignificant ones, why Calgary is better than Edmonton right now. Hiller. He has stolen a half dozen games already this season.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2014 :  12:10:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oilers cap situation is $3.268 room to the Cap, not $6 million, because you forgot the bonus $ for Yakopov. They have 3 players at $6 million a year, Hopkins, Hall and Eberle. 3 above $4 Nikitin, Purcell and Pouliot and 5 more within spitting distance of $3.4 Draisaitl, $3.6 Fayne, $3.6 Shultz, $3.7 Yakopov, and $3.8 for Perron. That doesn't include that Yakopov will be commanding similar pay to Hopkins, Hall and Eberle next season. They don't get the job done 5 on 5 and will soon have to decide if Yakopov is a $6 million man soon.

My point is Calgary had similar numbers tied up in there Star core and gettisoned most of them in trades, with decent return. Free agents are expensive which is why you want a trade partner. I agree if Edmonton looks to rebuild thru free agents they are no better, but this is not a $67 million dollar roster, but individually they can get a decent return at a lower cap hit thru trade. Your point that the forwards are better in Edmonton than Calgary is valid except when you consider the results. You can argue that Hall, Eberle, Hopkins and Yakopov are better than Calgary's forward core, but for many years running Calgary's core is ahead in the standings. BTW, I don't think that is just because of coaching in Calgary, but the turmoil in coaching/management in Edmonton, doesn't help.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2014 :  07:13:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps we are looking at different information??? I use CapGeek, which does show the $3.9 million of space but projections closer to $6 million and $18 million of potential space as of the deadline. There are more moving parts to the salary cap than most of us realize and the numbers and bonus float all over the place. Ultimately, the Oilers could sign a $5 million contract tomorrow without being over the cap.

The Yakpouv getting $6 million a year is funny. Hopkins, Eberle, and Hall all worked out for their first 3 seasons and they Oilers decided to forgo the bridge contract and sign them long term. That was also Tambelinni who made that call. I think you have to look closer to Justin Schultz and how Craig MacTavish went with a bridge deal for him when you think about what will happen with Yakupov. I don't see a $6 million deal. I see a 2 yr deal for $3-$4 million (preferably closer to 3). Remember that Yakupov will be an RFA and will have arbitration rights. What arbitrator is going to give that kid $6 million when he's not even a 20 goal a year guy at this point in his career?? That's a reach to say the least.

Finally, Calgary did make the conscious decision to start dumping players but let's not forget how long that took too. That started 3 seasons ago and, at the time, they had something like 18 players with no movement clauses. Kudos to Jay Feester who did most of the heavy lifting to dump those guys. But let's not get over our heads here. Many of those deals were complete dumps of contracts and they players they got in return were castaways. Most of us, at the time of the trades, were laughing about the return in a lot of cases. It's not like that team is full of talent. That team works their bags off every night because they have a coach who enforces a system and holds players accountable. As Slozo said, they also have a keeper who can steal games for them.


I stand by my opinion that the Oilers skill level is higher than that of the Flames. I think if the Oilers were coached by a guy like Hartley they would be close to or competing for a playoff spot. Give them a legit centre who can play on one of the top two lines and a stud defensemen and they are in the playoffs. In the absence of that, an elite keeper would put them close to a playoff spot but I don't think that is as important as the other two spots.




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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2014 :  08:14:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2 things with your last statement. Hartley would feel like every other coach coming into Edmonton, overly optimistic about the talent level, severely frustrated with the holes in the lineup and lack of commitment. Its one thing to come in with a system that works, its another for the current group of players to buy in and to ice a competitive roster. The problem with all that talent in Edmonton is they haven`t bought in to anyone`s system since Mact was coaching and there are holes. Knock the trades Calgary did, but there are no huge gapping holes in the lineup unless you are looking for overpriced future superstars. There are potential superstars in Calgary, but no elephant contracts and the ability to fill holes with $10+ cap space.

2nd is if Edmonton goes looking for Yakopov to sign that $3-4 million bridge contract they will have to look for that bridge in Russia. I am not saying Yapopov is a $6 million player, but I will bet a $50 Timmys card he will sign within a Million of the other Oilers stars or play in Russia.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2014 :  10:10:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
........ I will bet a $50 Timmys card he will sign within a Million of the other Oilers stars or play in Russia.



Ooooohhh! I sense a bet! I think Beans might bite on this one!

In fairness, I know little about Yakupov in regards to his desire to stay in Edmonton, his level of greed/expectations, his desire to go back to Russia, etc, but I get the feeling he ends up with the bridge deal closer to 4M than 6M. Just my guess though and this is based on what he deserves. He's a former #1 with huge potential, but let's face it, unless he explodes between now and the end of the season, he's not shown enough to command a 5M+ deal in any way shape or form!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2014 :  10:54:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Couple of things:

1) The Oilers have had 5 different coaches in the past 7 season (MacT, Quinn, Renney, Krueger, and Eakins) and only one of them has been around through 2 seasons. Each one of them has tried to install a system since MacT left. That is part of the problem as there has been no continuity and this team has no identity.

2) When Hartley came in it was right after Sutter left. He has completely changed the system and style of play for that team compared to what Sutter had installed.

3) A good coach will install the system they think will work with the players they have.

4) I do not make money bets on here. I would gladly and happily take your bet that Yakupov's next deal (if in the NHL) is for less than $5 million a season. It's a no lose bet for me as firstly, I think I'll win. But secondly, if I lose that deal will have taken the last hope I had for this team away and I'll have to find a new team to cheer for.


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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2014 :  13:47:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are opening in the Sens camp for a disgruntled former Oilers fan. But seriously will take the bet for signatures of winners choice at time of signing. Something along the lines of celebratory of team greatness on winners team.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2014 :  13:49:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bet would last regular season, offseason or playoffs of signing year, whenever signing takes place. $5 million+ I win, -$5 million you win.
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