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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2009 :  20:08:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Willus - don't keep calling me a punk, show me these numbers you say you have seen, please! I already have supported my argument with some stats, difficult as it is to compare across decades and decades . . . you are the one who has counte-rargued something with no proof, dude!

Yes, I have watched old games in full. Quite enjoyable stuff. I made it a point to re-watch some Howe, in fact, before I wrote my lengthy piece.

The Forsberg analogy is good; however, it doesn't convince me that Howe was any more dominating than he was . . . and I sound disrespectful?!? Did you read the last bit I wrote about Howe?!? Crap, man . . . I don't know if I could have written it with more respect! And thanks for calling this 35 turning 36 year old a "young punk" . . .

. . . but here, I must stop, if simply out of reverence for the legend that he was, as Howe's wife just passed away.

Tonight, I'll tip my glass of brandy his way.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug


I didn't call you a punk. Read it again.

As for the numbers in question, you originally made a post that pointed out the population increases insinuating a greater talent influx but failed to bring in the other numbers which would have to be looked at as well in order to get a clearer picture of what was actually happening with the talent pool. There were huge blanks left in your argument and I was pointing that out for you. I'm not going to do the research for you. It was a theory you went with but didn't do the necessary research to prove.

Saying the only argument I had was based on nostalgia seems weak. That's an easy cop out for you because you didn't see him play and are trying to base how great he was from stats alone. You won't come to the correct conclusion. My Forsberg example does prove that.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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Guest8801
( )

Posted - 03/18/2009 :  15:35:28  Reply with Quote
I didn't get to see much of his play, but I would have to select Ken Dryden. My memories of him playing included a couple bad beats the NHL all-stars recieved from the Soviets, especially a 6-4 loss where Dryden only faced 10 or 12 shots (Tretiak made well over 40 saves for the win). I only saw him play a few other times (I was very young), but many consider him one of the greatest goalies of all time. I think this is rather inflated.

I also think Fuhr was pretty overrated. Him I did see a lot, since I grew up (and still live) in Edmonton. He was certainly a good goaltender, who at times was absolutely brilliant, but he was very inconsistant. He would let in 2 or 3 weak goals some nights, then make some saves he shouldn't have been able to make. The team's record with Andy Moog in net was pretty comparable to their record with Grant Fuhr, and I don't think anyone is calling Moog one of the greatest goalies ever.
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Guest2535
( )

Posted - 03/19/2009 :  11:16:38  Reply with Quote
I think henry riachard was overated... he won 11 stanley cups in 20 years but still he was not this great player that alot of people, especially in montreal, make him out to be.
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greatonesleague
Top Prospect



Canada
25 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2009 :  19:11:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

All obviously GREAT players. But the question is a relative one. This means that your answer to it of course doesn't necessarily mean that you don't think the player was great - just that you think he might be rated too highly AS COMPARED to the way the other players are rated.

Of course, feel free to add to the list, but make sure the player is thought of as a superstar. In other words, I don't think a guy like Adam Oates, or a Daryl Sittler, would be eligible for this list. But a guy like Steve Yzerman might as he reached a certain superstar status that those guys probably didn't. I have tried to pick guys that fall in this type of category - guys who were absolute shoe-ins for the Hall of Fame.



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greatonesleague
Top Prospect



Canada
25 Posts

Posted - 04/24/2009 :  19:15:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by willus3

I don't think Andyhack was asking for the worst of the best either. If I'm not mistaken he is asking who you feel out of these superstars is generally overrated by most.



"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
[/qmauote]mark messier just ask the vancouver canucks he should have been made to pay them for ruining thier team him and iron mike
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
834 Posts

Posted - 04/26/2009 :  22:21:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Although it pains me to disrespect my first favourite hockey player, Ken Dryden is my choice.

If he plays for the LA Kings during that time, we don't even know who he is. Just another goalie on a bad team, probably. As someone eluded to, he looked pretty bad in some games that were held ona world stage (Summit series, etc.)

Grant Fuhr - not overrated. He's a money goalie if there ever was one. He had one bad playoff series in his entire career, the year the Oil lost to the Flames. The rest, he was golden. He didn't make every save, but he made them when they counted.

There are only a handful of goalies that rise to the occasion like he did.
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Guest8289
( )

Posted - 04/27/2009 :  12:28:10  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2535

I think henry riachard was overated... he won 11 stanley cups in 20 years but still he was not this great player that alot of people, especially in montreal, make him out to be.



Are you nuts?
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Guest6191
( )

Posted - 04/27/2009 :  12:32:31  Reply with Quote
I have no idea how to log in. I am Richard Sharp from Gatineau. I am most gratified to see Bobby Orr as the least most overrated hockey superstar.

The Big Bad Bruins killed a lot of penalties. I remember a game Orr had the puck almost the entire two minutes. He skated through the other team three times.

The other team's fans were cheering him by the time he was done.
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
546 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2009 :  06:16:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you read the book "Messier"...you will learn that he was a d*** in the dressing room...

Cheap hits, ran for the money when he left Edmonton, New York and Vancouver. Alot of credit for scoring, other then that...not worth a second thought...

"Everytime you step out onto the ice, it's a clean slate, anyone can win"
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2009 :  18:37:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the Hockey News Top 100 List, Ken Dryden is named the 26th best NHL player of all time. Why in the world they mixed goalies in this list, I don't know, but to me this makes Ken Dryden an excellent answer to the question of who is the most overrated superstar of all time.

26th! I don't know how they decided when to throw a goalie in the list here and there, but the effect is this. A kid reading up about hockey history looks at the list, sees Dryden way up there and, especially after looking at Kenny's warped/misleading stats, concludes, that Ken Dryden must have been significantly better than some other goalies for these hockey experts to choose to put him so high on the list, much moreso than say, Bernie Parent or Tony Esposito (who are ranked about 60th/80th respectively by the way).

That IS overrated.

And although the same thinking can be applied to Roy's high ranking (about 20th) relative to Hasek (about 90th), I don't mind that one quite as much because it seems that there are enough Roy critics out there to help balance his position historically.

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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2009 :  18:54:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have not read many comments yet, but I already have to reply to this.

I am surprised to see Raymond Bourque with so many votes. Also, MSC, you said:

"Bourque played on a sub-par team, that made him look better than he was." -- Not word for word, but.

I have to disagree. Had you said he played on a great team, I may think more in to it, then still disagree. lol.

Ray Bourque, in my eyes, is the all-time top Defencmen behind Bobby Orr. He played a solid defensive game, and brought in great numbers to boot. How can you say he is overrated, he's not even rated very high by many as it is. He's underrated, if you ask me.

How does a poor team make a good look better, when he backed up that look with the points to prove it. A solid team, may make a player look better, as he has the help from others to pad his stats.

I may just be biased, as Bourque literally made me in to a hockey fan as a kid. He's my all-time favorite player, always will be. If it were not for Raymond, i'd likely not be as in love with the game as I am today.

There was just something about him and how he played, that made me want to watch.

Irvine
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Guest9843
( )

Posted - 10/17/2009 :  19:28:24  Reply with Quote
I can't believe Mats Sundin would not be mentioned...to me, he is by FAAARRRRR, the most over-rated Superstar ever. I never seen a guy with just one 100 point plus season get so much publicity as a superstar and a great captain.

The guy was crap in the playoffs. He never won anything, no Stanley Cups, no individual awards of consequence other than that Messier award which is a joke and given to him after not waiving his no-trade clause. The funny thing is that Messier voted him for the award, yet Sundin was no Messier in the playoffs. He never got his team to the Finals, yet the Leafs spent money to bring in veterans earlier in the decade, only to not get by the 2nd round.

The guy was a total phoney, and a garbage leader. Thank God he retired. Good riddance to that stupid phoney smile for the Camera. It's great he went back to Sweden, it's too bad he could not take all the stupid Leaf fans who love and thought he was a great player. These are the same morons who were planning a cup parade because the Leafs were playing well in the pre-season.
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2009 :  21:06:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Original poser: Guest9843
--BEGIN QUOTE--
I can't believe Mats Sundin would not be mentioned...to me, he is by FAAARRRRR, the most over-rated Superstar ever.
--END QUOTE--



I would not consider Mats Sundin a "Superstar". Thus, I for one never mentioned him. I'd certainly consider Mats a solid player, who played the game well. But he is no "Superstar". A "Star" perhaps, less the Super.




Irvine
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Guest0898
( )

Posted - 10/18/2009 :  01:21:44  Reply with Quote
Roy is the most overrated player on that list by far he was good but nothing special
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2009 :  08:32:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0898

Roy is the most overrated player on that list by far he was good but nothing special



Wow, I guess winning makes him nothing special?? Might want to take a look back at those teams from 86 and 93 who won the Cup and tell me where the talent on those teams was??? Various Cups, every goalie award possible, 3 Conn Smythes, Hall of Fame, Voted as the greatest Goalie of All Time by a panel of 41 sports writers, various 1st and 2nd team all stars, #22 on the 100 all time greatest players list.


I think the 'overrated' opinion when speaking about Patrick Roy is the significant minority.

Or were you talking about Pierre Roy???
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coach roy
Top Prospect



Canada
3 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2009 :  12:10:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wow very interesting question my pick here might be dryden. i know 6 cups in 9 yrs but could have the cnadiens won with out him. if the habs had cheevers,parent,tony esposito billy smith. with the team the habs had i think these other goalies could have won too. where was dryden against the russians i ask.
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Guest7752
( )

Posted - 10/19/2009 :  12:31:46  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9843

I can't believe Mats Sundin would not be mentioned...to me, he is by FAAARRRRR, the most over-rated Superstar ever. I never seen a guy with just one 100 point plus season get so much publicity as a superstar and a great captain.

The guy was crap in the playoffs. He never won anything, no Stanley Cups, no individual awards of consequence other than that Messier award which is a joke and given to him after not waiving his no-trade clause. The funny thing is that Messier voted him for the award, yet Sundin was no Messier in the playoffs. He never got his team to the Finals, yet the Leafs spent money to bring in veterans earlier in the decade, only to not get by the 2nd round.

The guy was a total phoney, and a garbage leader. Thank God he retired. Good riddance to that stupid phoney smile for the Camera. It's great he went back to Sweden, it's too bad he could not take all the stupid Leaf fans who love and thought he was a great player. These are the same morons who were planning a cup parade because the Leafs were playing well in the pre-season.



HAAAAA !!!!!!
You're absolutely right!!!

go look at the Sundin Comedy discussion.... HAAA !!!!!!
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Guest8556
( )

Posted - 11/17/2009 :  20:36:34  Reply with Quote
Wihout a doubt the most over rated player and "Leader" in hockey history is Mark Messier. Granted he had a great run with the Oilers but with a loaded team. Legend has it that he single handely won the cup with the Rangers in 94, so how come he did not win the Conn Smythe Trophy? Then the "Messiah" went to the Canucks and what happened - 7 years out of the playoffs and then the "Messiah" went back to the Rangers with a guarantee that they would make the playoffs (let alone the cup) and then what haappened ... another three or four years out of the playoffs. The "Great Leader" played almost half of his careeer out of the playoffs. When you talk about leaders you should be talking about Jean Beliveau, Phil Esposito, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, etc, etc, NOT "Mess Face"

Who is the MOST overrated of the following former superstars of the game (listed in no particular order)?
[/quote]
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Guest9774
( )

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  11:35:44  Reply with Quote
i think bobby orr is soooooooooooo bad he is so overated
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  16:13:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8556

Wihout a doubt the most over rated player and "Leader" in hockey history is Mark Messier. Granted he had a great run with the Oilers but with a loaded team. Legend has it that he single handely won the cup with the Rangers in 94, so how come he did not win the Conn Smythe Trophy? Then the "Messiah" went to the Canucks and what happened - 7 years out of the playoffs and then the "Messiah" went back to the Rangers with a guarantee that they would make the playoffs (let alone the cup) and then what haappened ... another three or four years out of the playoffs. The "Great Leader" played almost half of his careeer out of the playoffs. When you talk about leaders you should be talking about Jean Beliveau, Phil Esposito, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, etc, etc, NOT "Mess Face"

Who is the MOST overrated of the following former superstars of the game (listed in no particular order)?


[/quote]You cant fix stupid.

Did you see the guy live in his prime? Did you see him play live period? This guy in the prime of his career took an Oilers team which was thought to be overmatched in the playoffs and won without a "stacked team". Then he took a team which was struggling late in the playoffs and made a statement which lit a fire under the team and the city of New York. The guy who did get MVP (Leetch)deserved it, but I bet Messier was considered for it 2nd to him.

Do you know why the Oilers developed well and were considered a stacked team? Its cause guys like Messier, Coffey, Anderson and Gretzky helped to develop them, they all fed of each other. Tell me a work horse like Messier with the looping windup rush goals were not impressive You gotta watch some old highlights to see just how impressive this guy was. Probably the 2nd best Oiler from that franchises Cup wins.
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Guest4803
( )

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  12:08:17  Reply with Quote
messier he ruined the canucks, basically forced linden to give him the captincy and then linden ended up leaving for a while, he also tried to touch bure causing him to ask for a trade thanks a lot Mark.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  12:29:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Because the Canucks were on a downswing post there final berth and they pursued Messier and alienated there former captain, that makes all of the gifts and accomplishments Messier did prior to becoming a Canuck invalid? Its a well documented fact Bure and his troubles were with management, so how do you lay that at Messiers feet. Become a fan of hockey first then wave your team colors. Messier may not have been his best while a Canuck, but he was not the catalyst of Canucks doom you are claiming he was. Easily belongs in the top 100, maybe 30, players of all time. Saying he doesn't makes you look like you havent any hockey smarts at all.
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Guest4803
( )

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  13:03:48  Reply with Quote
sorry joshua didnt realize that list was of 100 players seems to me it was maybe 8-10 i think messier is in the top 10 of all time i just hate the guy with a passion, and messier is quoted to admitting that there was a "unfortunate circumstance with pavel"
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2010 :  15:56:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4803

sorry joshua didnt realize that list was of 100 players seems to me it was maybe 8-10 i think messier is in the top 10 of all time i just hate the guy with a passion, and messier is quoted to admitting that there was a "unfortunate circumstance with pavel"

Well Bure was quoted as saying contract negotiating tactics of Vancouver was the reason for the split, so if there was friction between the 2 superstars it still doesnt detract from the fact that he is in the same breath as the best players the game has ever seen.
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Guest2789
( )

Posted - 01/14/2010 :  13:14:54  Reply with Quote
Brett Hull without a doubt!! Half the goals he got were thanks to Oates and his "sweet" passes. Even the goal he got for Dallas should not of counted(foot in crease) rule. Then Dallas hires him as some kind of hockey operations guy...and he brings in you who.......Mr Sloppy seconds......good call Brett.
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Guest9774
( )

Posted - 03/23/2010 :  10:06:05  Reply with Quote
bobby orr sucks he is OVERRATED
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2010 :  21:35:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gretzky is the most overrated but as far as i'm concerned all the older players are over rated comparing the goalies Sv% and the weaker shots of the players it is sort of something I can say something good about Modern Society living in a polluted (in my opinion) city named vancouver I can barely stand it so complementing Modern days in a giant way is huge..... though there are a lot of better things to say........... Mats Sundin was Overrated but he did have a shot Naslund was more Overrated.
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shazariahl
Top Prospect



50 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2010 :  23:26:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What does pollution, save%, and Gretzky all have in common?
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2010 :  23:55:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shazariahl

What does pollution, save%, and Gretzky all have in common?




Apparently if you suck in enough pollution, it allows you to free think in way the rest of us can't understand.....

Utemin,

I used to always think to myself, when a guest poster would post something assinine, and self-indulgent that, 'man I wish this person would at least get an account and then there could be a 'face' to the drivel', I guess sometimes it's better not to see the face....

That might be one of the most ridiculous posts I have read yet, 'all the older players'?, 'goalies Sv%'?, and so on.....?

WTF are you babbling about?

I'm thinking you ignored a whack of the guidelines, regarding posting something legible, not to mention the content of it, which reads like some sort Orwell/Limbaugh monstrosity....

Can you try and do better?......Please?

This is just silly.....
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Trognitz
Top Prospect



10 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2012 :  14:37:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hd to go with Coffey. i know it was one season but he was a non factor as a Flyer. the invisible man,
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Guest8131
( )

Posted - 11/05/2012 :  20:41:32  Reply with Quote
by asking who's overrated and underrated your ratting the players. So by saying messier's overrated your underrating him. There's no point doing a poll on something like this therefore
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 11/06/2012 :  13:50:27  Reply with Quote
First of all, the list provided is a list of great NHL players. (Hockey News has them listed very high in their list of the top 100 players of all time.)

But if I had to pick one player who may be a bit overrated (emphasis on bit), I would have to say Ken Dryden.

HNIC recently replayed the 1975 New Year's Eve game between the Habs and the Soviet Red Army team (which was a stacked Russian team), and as most remember, the game ended a 3-3 tie.

Montreal outshot the Russians 38-13, and it was interesting to hear the Habs fans boo their own goalie in this game. (Something the Habs fans did in other games in which Dryden played poorly.)

This was only one game, but it reminded me about Dryden's play in net. I was a Habs fan growing up, and for the most part, I liked Dryden's play, but he was tough to watch a lot of nights.

In the 70's, the Canadiens were an amazing team, and Dryden deserves some credit for the team's success, but it should be noted that the Canadiens were a great team whoever played in net for the team.

Their back-up goalies (which included Michele Plasee, Wayne Thomas, Bunny Laroque, Phil Myre and Denis Herron to name a few) had an average combined save percentage of .902. Dryden's was .921 during his NHL career, which is pretty good, but not dramatically more than some very ordinary back-up goalies.

It should be noted that the 70's Habs were a dominating team offensively, and with the likes of Lafleur, Shutt, Mahovlich, Lemaire, etc. the puck was usually in the other end of the rink.

Montreal's defense was also very very good. Their defense included Serge Savard, Larry Robinson and Guy Lapointe. And they had some pretty good defensive forwards, like Bob Gainey, Doug Jarvis and Doug Riseborough. (And Jacques Lemaire was excellent at both ends of the ice.)

Getting back to Dryden, one other blemish on Dryden's career is the 1972 Summit Series. He played in four games, and his save percentage was a dismal .838. Tony Esposito played in the same number of games (four), and his save percentage was .882.

Don't get me wrong. Dryden was a very good goalie, but if you're rating Dryden based on certain stats (low GAA or Vezina Trophy wins for example), a lot of credit has to go to his teammates. If you ever watched him play (I did), he was sloppy in the net sometimes. The Canadiens could outshoot (or outchance) the opposition by a two to one margin and lose some nights.

Once again, tough to pick from this category, but my choice (begrudgingly) is Dryden.
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theraj662
Top Prospect



48 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2013 :  07:01:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Of all people on this list, Ken Dryden had to be the biggest benefactor of circumstance. Circumstance such as he was lucky enough to have played for the Habs in the 70's, the best team of that era and possibly the greatest NHL team of any era.

I'm not saying Dryden was a bad goaltender, to the contrary, he was excellent and deserving any praises cast upon him.

Dryden is in the HHOF having played only 7 full seasons and just a small part of another.

What I am trying to say here is that if Dryden hadn't played for the Canadiens those years, he likely would be hardly remebered, cetainly not talked of as a legend, and certainly not in the HHOF!

Being as talented and as good as he was, if he instead played for the California Golden Seals or toiled with the Colorado Rockies or wallowed with the Kansas City Scouts, who would remeber him?
Would his 8 seasons of play garner him HHOF under those circumstances? Certainly not!

Instead, whenever he would be mentioned, he would be trivia memory as the guy who was the poor bastard that played for those crappy teams in the 70's.

Bottom line here is that if Dryden didn't have the fortune to play for the Habs in the 70's, there would be no HHOF for him, period.

Same goes for Steve Shutt, 400 + goals yes, but only 817 career points, far below HHOF entry standards under normal circumstances.

Had he put up those same numbers on any other team, he wouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as HHOF!
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
428 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2013 :  12:39:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
my analysis: no one on this list is overrated. All of these players are very highly rated and deservedly so.

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
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Guest9848
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  07:59:27  Reply with Quote
In my opinion to be the most Overrated you have to be extremely highly rated. Ive never heard anyone saying Patrick Roy is the best player ever, I've never heard anyone saying hes the best goalie ever either, so I don't really see him as being the most overrated, maybe slightly overrated, the same goes for a lot of these guys.

So to be the most overrated player of all time, I think you probably have to have a lot of people saying you are number 1 of all time. So for me that narrows it down to Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, or Bobby Orr

I don't believe you can look at one player and say they are the best ever, you can argue that they were the best for a given stretch of years, or the best of their era. The number of people who say Gretzky or Orr are the all time best would lead me to say they are both extremely overrated.

While I respect both of them a great deal, because of the level of reverence people have for them they have been inflated to this level where people think they could dominate the sport no matter what decade they played in.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  08:29:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9848

In my opinion to be the most Overrated you have to be extremely highly rated. Ive never heard anyone saying Patrick Roy is the best player ever, I've never heard anyone saying hes the best goalie ever either, so I don't really see him as being the most overrated, maybe slightly overrated, the same goes for a lot of these guys.




You serious? No, really. If you've never heard anyone call Roy the best goalie ever, it must be lonely in that cave of yours.

Sorry, i don't mean to offend you, but Patrick Roy has been, and still is, considered the best goalie ever by MANY hockey people including players, fans, coaches, analysts, etc....
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Guest9848
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  09:35:15  Reply with Quote
Ok I lied, I have heard many people saying Roy is the best goalie ever.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:16:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9848

Ok I lied, I have heard many people saying Roy is the best goalie ever.



Yep - count me in for that, Roy was the best goalie I ever saw in my lifetime, better than Brodeur.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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