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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2013 :  11:47:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow this is beyond rediculous.

You guys are arguing about the math but the math is not the problem here in the MISUNDERSTANDING. and this is what it is. a big misunderstanding.

Beans, what Joshua is saying is that Alfredson yes only got paid 85% (Beans pointed out) or 90% (Joshua pointed out) of his first contract, but he only played 80% of it. What is there not to understand?

I'm sorry Beans, but it appears that Joshua is right on this argument.

Then there is the opinions vs opinions and hidden facts that comes into this debate, but on that particular argument, Joshua is right.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2013 :  11:56:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will say it again for the learning impaired. Between 2004 and 2009/10 season Alfredsson was initial contract had him to be paid $30 million, rolled back to $24 million by the league. How much did he receive including the buyout between 2004 and 2009/10? My math says he received $26.5, plus the buyout of $2.1 million which equals $28.6.

I have already agreed his next contract was paid in full because it was played in full, so stop circling back to it. His new contract in 2009 incorporated a year from the previous contract, which is why I keep referring to it, but you keep discounting it because they are separate contracts. 1 contract affected the other

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2013 :  20:32:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now I have to deal with 2 people that are wrong! Really!

Firstly, the team decided to buy of the contract, meaning he was paid to not complete the agreement. He did only play 4 years by the choice of the team and received compensation to make the contract end early.

We can all agree to the fact that he did play 4 of 5 years. The 5th year was cancelled with the buy out.

Now, Joshua (and anyone who is as annoyed as I am) please grab a calculator and solve for x:

$4.66 + $5.45 + $4.70 + $3.80 = x


Now add $2.1 to x


What number do you get?

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 08/29/2013 01:33:54
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5692 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2013 :  23:21:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Now I have to deal with 2 people that are wrong! Really!

First Alex, the team decided to buy of the contract, meaning he was paid to not complete the agreement. He did only play 4 years by the choice of the team and received compensation to make the contract end early.

We can all agree to the fact that he did play 4 of 5 years. The 5th year was cancelled with the buy out.






How the F did I get involved in this? I've stayed out of this for the most part and now i'm lumped into it? My only guess is, Beans, that you are mistaking me for the comments made by Leafs81 (tonight)??? Otherwise, i'm more lost on your comments than I am on this entire thread!!!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  01:33:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My deepest apologies Alex. For some reason I have the ability to confuse you with other posters. I normally have an excuse for mixing up you and Nuxfan but in this case I can even use that old standby.

Again, I am sorry. I have edited the original post.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5692 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  11:38:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

My deepest apologies Alex. For some reason I have the ability to confuse you with other posters. I normally have an excuse for mixing up you and Nuxfan but in this case I can even use that old standby.

Again, I am sorry. I have edited the original post.





Lol, no worries, i wasn't upset in the least. I actually had to reread most of the thread as i originally missed the post by Leafs81 so i wasn't sure who you actually meant? I was scrolling back to see where i said something that fit and got even more confused until i finally noticed that (Leafs81) post! Lol.
Either way, i'm staying out of this one!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  11:57:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Of course you are staying out of this one. You know how to both read and use a calculator so the argument get's pretty one-sided at that point.

I just enjoy the fight. Especially when I am right. I have no issue when people disagree with my opinions, but facts are facts. People who disagree with facts are people I do not understand.

Again, my apologies for the confusion. I should know better by now.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  15:44:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Now I have to deal with 2 people that are wrong! Really!

Firstly, the team decided to buy of the contract, meaning he was paid to not complete the agreement. He did only play 4 years by the choice of the team and received compensation to make the contract end early.

We can all agree to the fact that he did play 4 of 5 years. The 5th year was cancelled with the buy out.

Now, Joshua (and anyone who is as annoyed as I am) please grab a calculator and solve for x:

$4.66 + $5.45 + $4.70 + $3.80 = x


Now add $2.1 to x


What number do you get?

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Why am I gonna use your math to prove your argument, when you wont answer a single question in over a month. You have conveniently concluded his last contract in 2008 when it ended in 2009 to prove your point, but totally not considered the fact it was the team which offered to buyout his contract and compensate him at a much higher salary in his lowest paying year. I bet your really good at hide and seek because I cant find your answers anywhere.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  16:22:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am gonna try one last time for answers.

Why do you keep referring to the $24 million as it was the total value for a 5 year contract when it was concluded in 4 years?

Why do you not use the math I have provided in the years between 2004 and 2009, which incidentally are in your numbers as well?

As a moderator, who's job is suppose to curb personal shots, not apologize when you are the offender?

I am not a moderator, so why do I have to tell you your job?

Had you looked rationally at the points I had made, or answered any one of the hundreds of questions I have asked or apologized for personal comments you have made, which I had done, this whole topic would have gone away by now. But you continue to insult, which I will continue to return in kind.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  17:55:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans can you read page 2 of this topic for Alex's other points wherein he didn't agree with the supposed hometown discount. Leafs 81 agreed with my math and I think there are many other posts which refered by others to Alfredsson not being underpaid, rather than overpaid in his last contract for some years. There are others who suggested the Senators owed him a favor which I responded to there points as well, such as Slozo. Didn't hear them weigh in on the debate after I responded except Slozo's asking for a stop to personal shots. I apologized to anyone I offended, but asked for an apology in return. So are you man enough?
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Of course you are staying out of this one. You know how to both read and use a calculator so the argument get's pretty one-sided at that point.

I just enjoy the fight. Especially when I am right. I have no issue when people disagree with my opinions, but facts are facts. People who disagree with facts are people I do not understand.

Again, my apologies for the confusion. I should know better by now.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/29/2013 19:12:15
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  18:00:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok lets try this.

Alfredson signed a 5 year contract for 30 millions. Which was rolled back (by the league) to 24 millions. So Alfredson should have got paid 24 millions for those following next 5 seasons. But he got paid 25.61 millions (using your numbers) Well that is more then what he was supposed to get after the roll back. Plus he got the 2.1 millions on top of that for having his contract bought out. The frig up in the contract was taken care of by buying out the final year of the contract, which was low, and INCREASING his pay check by almost 5 millions( plus giving him back the 2.1 in the span of 3 years) Win situation for Alfredson.

He got paid 85% of a contract that he played 80% of. Win situation for Alfredson if you ask me.

It is frustrating to have this debate and I understand other members to not want to get into it because they know somebody will never understand and they don't want to get frustrated.

I'm done now.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2013 :  20:20:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really wish we could move past this over paid vs underpaid conversation because its clouding the argument at hand. If you want me to say that Alfie was overpaid for the past few seasons and his current deal is an overapayment I can do that. But that doesn't change a few key facts. Doing my very best to stay out of the personal shots, I would really like your most honest answered on the following:

Between the years of 05/06 and 08/09 Alfredsson played 4 seasons and made $18.61 million. Add the salary values up in any order and you will get the same number. Agreed?

If Alfredsson would have been asked to play his final year of his agreement, based on the value of $24 million over 5 years, he would have been owed $5.4 million to receive the total amount of the contract. Agreed?

At the teams request, Alfredsson received $2.1 million to effectively cancel his contract giving the team the ability to renegotiate another long term deal. Agreed?

My final question: what was the total amount Alfredsson received in compensation ( playing and buy out) for $24 million contract?



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2013 :  08:04:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I really wish we could move past this over paid vs underpaid conversation because its clouding the argument at hand. If you want me to say that Alfie was overpaid for the past few seasons and his current deal is an overapayment I can do that. But that doesn't change a few key facts. Doing my very best to stay out of the personal shots, I would really like your most honest answered on the following:

Between the years of 05/06 and 08/09 Alfredsson played 4 seasons and made $18.61 million. Add the salary values up in any order and you will get the same number. Agreed?

If Alfredsson would have been asked to play his final year of his agreement, based on the value of $24 million over 5 years, he would have been owed $5.4 million to receive the total amount of the contract. Agreed?

At the teams request, Alfredsson received $2.1 million to effectively cancel his contract giving the team the ability to renegotiate another long term deal. Agreed?

My final question: what was the total amount Alfredsson received in compensation ( playing and buy out) for $24 million contract?



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



If the only thing left to disagree with is the amount paid during the contract between 2004-2009 is the difference between the cap number you presented and what the actual pay was, that is a marked improvement. They didn't buyout the last contract year at 100% would be my guess. Usually the math is 2/3 over 3 years, but the math there doesn't make sense either. I have tried to reference google, capgeek or NHLnumbers.com since we started this debate to find out the initial details of the 2004 contract but haven't had success. Being that Capgeek and NHLnumbers.com had different formula's to calculate his cap hit and both show different cap numbers, means we likely wont know the whole story unless we can find a reference to the original signing. It is my assumption there might be a bonus not calculated which would have a bearing on the difference. I have also read that when the 2009 signing and buyout happened the NHL said they would have to adjust his cap numbers for the buyout, but didn't know how it would be assigned. I don't know if they every assigned the buyout to any years cap hit.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2013 :  08:17:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Basically without knowing all the numbers, we have argued the amounts without knowing all the details. As long as you can see the team once compensated Alfredsson for his lean years and in some years Alfredsson's pay exceeded his performance, maybe you can understand why the team in financial trouble now wouldn't be able to do it twice. I have read many stories about Melnyk's other financial endeavor's which have talked about his cash and equity positions, which are much lower than when he bought the team. If he has subsidized the team for the last decade and is not in a position to do that today, Alfredsson would have been made aware of this and should not have taken it as an insult. I still maintain the organization has a history of doing its best for players. Alfredsson just see's it differently and his shots against the organization were not justified. Again, if he wanted to remain seeming classy he should have thanks them for the years and opportunity and said he was on to a new opportunity, leaving it at that.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2013 :  10:45:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The inaccuracies of the numbers is the biggest issue because that is obviously my bone of contention. As I see it, based on capgeek, Alfredsson received $3million less than the agreed upon value of his agreement based on the buy out. If that is true, then Alfredsson has a legit beef. If it's false then he doesn't.

My point from the start was never value of the player, it was getting paid what was owed. I compare it to me lending you $20 for a box of beer. If you agree to pay me back $5 a week for 4 weeks then I expect $5 a week for 4 weeks. If you show up on week #4 with change in your pocket but tell me you will get me later, I will trust you the first time. If you balk me the next time, I have a beef.

That's how I see the Alfredsson thing. I believe he was promised and never got. I find that even tougher to stomach knowing that Ottawa has the 3rd lowest cap hit in the league. If the owner can't afford the team he should sell it. There would be buyers lined up for a Canadian hockey team and it has proven to be profitabale, al be it not hugely profitable.

Nope, I got no sympathy for an owner who makes money and I got no empathy for an owner who makes promised but doesn't keep them.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2013 :  11:04:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Melnyk is a millionaire/billionaire and has other financial interests. Those financial interests have tied up his capital for the time being. Because he is trying to restructure the financing for all of his business's or maybe just the Senators he has imposed an internal cap on payrolls, which he is likely going to be above. Why do you think you can dictate what he spends when he has already paid to play as they say.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2013 :  11:13:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I get the borrowing for beer scenario much like prepaying a tab at the bar. But Ottawa paid for 5 beer and only received 4. Do they still owe for the 1 they paid for but didn't receive?

We don't know if the numbers presented on Cap geek or NHLnumbers.com have all the details and it is my guess that's why the numbers are different on both sites. The only way to know would be to reference the initial signing if it included all the details, which I cant find or to ask the source Melnyk/Alfredsson/Murray.

Either way I wasn't arguing math when talking about Alfredsson, I just used it to counter you opinion of him being underpaid, because I am of the opinion he was well paid and overpaid in his next contract in Detroit. The reason I was upset at Alfredsson is for past and present comments and actions.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/30/2013 11:16:08
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2013 :  12:38:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did a quick check on another number you had thrown out there which was the initial contract was $30 million rolled back to $24 million by taking 24% off. If $30 million was the initial contract, 76% of that would be $22.8 wouldn't it. Where did you get the $24 million number from? Either the initial contract wasn't $30 million or the rolled back amount was $22.8 million. Which is it? You have been arguing for a month over numbers yet I don't know if your numbers have any basis at all.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2013 :  16:50:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
God I love to stir the pot some. If Selanne signs for $2 million in his retirement season, having just come off of a similar ppg season to Alfredsson, can we compare the difference between these to players.

Selanne, with class, has signed for a fair market, maybe undervalued contract, in the twilight of his career, to end it with the only team he considers playing for. I get Selanne has a cup and Alfredsson does not, but outside of that fact and the fact Alfredsson was a Sens for life, these are 2 very similar situations. Both have every right to go to work where ever they choose to, but the difference between how they responded to there prospective teams is such a stark contrast.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2013 :  09:35:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, you have been arguing this point about Alfredsson being over/underpaid and it's not what I am arguing at all. My entire point has not been if he was worth his money, it was if he was paid what both parties agreed upon. He wasn't. The math isn't relevant.The point is simple - Alfredsson had an agreement for 5 years. He was paid for 4, then asked by the team to renegotiate. He did and then got paid for another 4 years.

You prepaid bar tab analogy is perfect. The part you are missing is when I reach for the 5th beer, the bartender tells me, "Hey, why night buy 4 more beers right now and I'll give you a deal." I say yes and then at the end of the night the bartender says, "Deal's off and if you don't like it you can go drink somewhere else."


And Selanne is a completely different story and situation. Selanne was and has been treated respectfully by his organization so he, in turn, treats his organization with respect. Ottawa, on the other hand, made promises to their franchise player of 17 yrs then casted him aside like a piece of garbage.

There is a significant difference.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2013 :  14:41:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't get your last argument at all. Ottawa agreed to pay a player for 5 years, then after the 4th said lets stop your contract here but we will still pay you for the final year and here is a higher contract for 4 more years which includes a raise for the final season of your last deal. That's like negotiating for 8 beers, but paying extra for the final 4 beers, with Ottawa being the customer not Alfredsson. Selanne, like Alfredsson, was treated with respect in the final playing years of his career, yet Selanne acted with class in his final year, while Alfredsson comes off vain and greedy, not to mention the classless comment from the last post season. You say Ottawa cast aside Alfredsson, but it was the player who had cast aside the team, after years of them investing in him. Ottawa wanted to resign Alfredsson, but he chose to play elsewhere. I left this alone for 2 weeks, but was hoping you had too, because you were starting to understand.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Joshua, you have been arguing this point about Alfredsson being over/underpaid and it's not what I am arguing at all. My entire point has not been if he was worth his money, it was if he was paid what both parties agreed upon. He wasn't. The math isn't relevant.The point is simple - Alfredsson had an agreement for 5 years. He was paid for 4, then asked by the team to renegotiate. He did and then got paid for another 4 years.

You prepaid bar tab analogy is perfect. The part you are missing is when I reach for the 5th beer, the bartender tells me, "Hey, why night buy 4 more beers right now and I'll give you a deal." I say yes and then at the end of the night the bartender says, "Deal's off and if you don't like it you can go drink somewhere else."


And Selanne is a completely different story and situation. Selanne was and has been treated respectfully by his organization so he, in turn, treats his organization with respect. Ottawa, on the other hand, made promises to their franchise player of 17 yrs then casted him aside like a piece of garbage.

There is a significant difference.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/13/2013 14:44:59
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2013 :  08:10:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Clearly you can not see reality any our fanaticism of your team is clouding your views. I can only argue with logic, which is likely why this argument has gone exactly no where in months.

Enjoy the season.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2013 :  09:55:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why cant you just admit the math you are arguing doesn't make sense. You might be wrong and someone else, you have insulted for his point of view, might be right. Then apologize. I would, I have and I will, if you can actual prove the point I have made wrong, which almost every other poster here has agreed with to some degree.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/16/2013 09:58:29
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2013 :  11:06:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, one more time just to see if you can see a different point of view, let me highlight the key points:

1 - Alfredsson signed 5 year contract what was signed as a $24 million agreement (where or when the roll back happened is irrelevant, the total dollar value is correct)

2 - It was the TEAM and not Alfredsson who instigated the 'buy out'. The buy out was to the advantage of the Senators to be able to resign their player for another 4 years, at their price.

3 - The TEAM should have paid Alfredsson $24 m to play 5 years. They paid him $18 to play 4 yrs then provided him with a $2 m buyout for a total of $20 million.

4 - If Alfredsson would have played out his entire deal he would have made $3 m more. He gave $3 million to the team

5 - When players were making $6+ million a season AFTER the CBA roll back, Alfredsson was making $5. He left around $1 m/season in each of the 4 years he did play of his 5 yr contract.

6 - I need to remind you again, the TEAM instigated the buy out. Not the player.



Let's go back to the beer analogy. Alfredsson is the bartender providing the product and the Senators are people drinking the beers. The Sens ask for 5 beers for $24 dollars. The bartender agrees. After drinking the 4th beer the drinker says, "Ok, I want 4 more beers but I want to play $20 for those beers. I'll pay you $7 for each of the first 2 beers, then $5 for the 3rd, and I might not want the 4th one or you might be closed before I can finish it, so I'll only pay you $1 for the last beer." The bartender says, "But I still own you 1 beer from our original deal." The drinkers says, 'Yes, but we'll give you $2 for that beer so we can move on to this deal for 4 more beers."

So, for 8 beers, the drinker pays the bartender $44. All the while, the bartender could have very easily sold those same 8 beers for $50 or more.


How does the drinker lose in this deal?? They got the 8 beers they wanted for a discount price. The bartender then offers the drinker another beer or two, if they want, at a price of $5 per beer. They already bought 8 beers at a discount but they say, "No way! Are you nuts! These beers are not worth $5!" So the bartender tells the drinker to get off the stool so someone else can sit down, drink the beers, and pay the money.


I can't understand how the bartender is the bad guy in that scenario. Help me get there.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  08:39:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Ok, one more time just to see if you can see a different point of view, let me highlight the key points:

1 - Alfredsson signed 5 year contract what was signed as a $24 million agreement (where or when the roll back happened is irrelevant, the total dollar value is correct)

Where do you get $24 million, from cap geek taking the cap hit of $4.816 over the 5 year term right! This is where you are wrong. NHLnumbers.com has the correct cap hit at $4.414. The contract was not taken to term but had it been it was not 24 million over 5 years it would have been $22.07 based on there numbers.

2 - It was the TEAM and not Alfredsson who instigated the 'buy out'. The buy out was to the advantage of the Senators to be able to resign their player for another 4 years, at their price.

How does buying out the lowest paying year of a contract to hand over 2/3 of the unplayed contract benefit the team, especially when the give Alfredsson twice the pay he was scheduled to make for this year in his new contract, plus the buyout.

3 - The TEAM should have paid Alfredsson $24 m to play 5 years. They paid him $18 to play 4 yrs then provided him with a $2 m buyout for a total of $20 million.

That's because you are using the incorrect formula to calculate his 5 year contract value to play out a full 5 year contract which he did not.

4 - If Alfredsson would have played out his entire deal he would have made $3 m more. He gave $3 million to the team

This is where you math is at its worst. How with your incorrect 5 year contract at $24 million, which was paid at $20 million become a $3 million loss. 24 - 20 = 4.

5 - When players were making $6+ million a season AFTER the CBA roll back, Alfredsson was making $5. He left around $1 m/season in each of the 4 years he did play of his 5 yr contract.

He was signed for less than other players on other teams and younger players on his own team with more upside. But he was still well paid. This is your opinion he was underpaid, but my belief that the team overpaid in following years.

6 - I need to remind you again, the TEAM instigated the buy out. Not the player.

The team instigated the buyout? Fact or fiction? How do you know that Alfredsson didn't instigate the buyout, whining about his low pay? Whatever or whomever caused the buyout, it benefitted the player, not the team to pay a player for not playing to the term end of the contract in its lowest paying year, to sign him at a higher value contract.

Let's go back to the beer analogy. Alfredsson is the bartender providing the product and the Senators are people drinking the beers. The Sens ask for 5 beers for $24 dollars. The bartender agrees. After drinking the 4th beer the drinker says, "Ok, I want 4 more beers but I want to play $20 for those beers. I'll pay you $7 for each of the first 2 beers, then $5 for the 3rd, and I might not want the 4th one or you might be closed before I can finish it, so I'll only pay you $1 for the last beer." The bartender says, "But I still own you 1 beer from our original deal." The drinkers says, 'Yes, but we'll give you $2 for that beer so we can move on to this deal for 4 more beers."

They gave him $2 million for a year they didn't receive. Why is this so hard for you to understand. Beer analogy, they didn't get the fricken beer.

So, for 8 beers, the drinker pays the bartender $44. All the while, the bartender could have very easily sold those same 8 beers for $50 or more.

This is stupid but I'll play your game. Why do you think they could have sold 8 beer for $50 when they had a contract for 9 beer at $44, but only served 8 for $42. The bartender owes them a beer they paid for but didn't receive and an apology for insulting them when they tried to buy more beer.

How does the drinker lose in this deal?? They got the 8 beers they wanted for a discount price. The bartender then offers the drinker another beer or two, if they want, at a price of $5 per beer. They already bought 8 beers at a discount but they say, "No way! Are you nuts! These beers are not worth $5!" So the bartender tells the drinker to get off the stool so someone else can sit down, drink the beers, and pay the money.

Maybe the last 4 beers seemed watered down. Not the quality of beers he had in the first round, plus the bartender now has an attitude.

I can't understand how the bartender is the bad guy in that scenario. Help me get there.

This is the dumbest thing I have responded to yet. You sir are cut off!


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/17/2013 08:45:23
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  10:38:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See, this is where I can't argue with something other than logic.

Let's me explain:

1 - You refer to the buy out as something other than team initiated. Do you have any proof of this??

2 - You continuously talk about a 9 year deal. It was a 5 yr deal that was bought out (by the team) and a 4 year deal. Two different deals.

3 - You continuously return to this point that Alfredsson was overpaid in the final 4 years. I never argued that. What I have always argued is he was under contract to be paid X and he didn't get paid X.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  11:15:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

See, this is where I can't argue with something other than logic.

Let's me explain:

1 - You refer to the buy out as something other than team initiated. Do you have any proof of this??

I am not saying it was team or player initiated. You are stating it one way or the other without proof.

2 - You continuously talk about a 9 year deal. It was a 5 yr deal that was bought out (by the team) and a 4 year deal. Two different deals.

The 2 different contracts overlapped in 1 year, ie, 1 affected the other.

3 - You continuously return to this point that Alfredsson was overpaid in the final 4 years. I never argued that. What I have always argued is he was under contract to be paid X and he didn't get paid X.

You are arguing with incorrect math assuming Alfredsson didn't get his rightful pay, because that's what he claims, whereas there are always 2 side to every story. I have shown you where your math is wrong and where the variable's are, but you refuse to do that math as I have shown. This started not as a math lesson, but by my saying my opinion of Alfredsson and his actions throughout.

The only constant right thing you have stated is the line that follows this one below!


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  13:13:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OMG, for the love of all things hockey... agree to disagree and let this thread go.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  13:24:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  13:53:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We can agree to disagree on opinion. However, one can not disagree with fact. The root fact is one contract does not, can not, and never will impact the next contract. They are two completely separate agreements.

Put this into perspective, had Alfredsson left the Senators after contract #1 was bought out, would the contract he would have signed with another team had any impact from the first contract?? This situation is not different than a player like Sheldon Souray, Daniel Briere, or Vicent Lecavalier getting paid from their orginial teams in a buy out and that having no bearing on the new contract. Contract A was bought out. Contract B is a completely different agreement that is not connected to contract A in any way, shape, or form.

A player can not ever choose to receive a buyout and end a contract. The team has to initate the buyout. This is where I point to logic. A+B=C. If a player can not instigate a buy out the only other possibility is the team instigated the buy out. It can only legally happen one way.


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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5692 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2013 :  20:56:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I can't understand how the bartender is the bad guy in that scenario. Help me get there.





EASY! The customer is always right!

I gotta admit, i'm tempted to actually research this whole thread and Alfie's contracts, etc just to see who is actually correct between the two of you!!! Lol...... Only tempted though.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2013 :  15:11:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm trying Alex, I really am. Beans your right one contract signed at a different time does not affect another contract, but if one affects terms set under the prior contract the have a bearing on each other. Is that all you have left to bitch about? Because if that's it then lets let it rest!

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4515 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  09:16:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I'm trying Alex, I really am. Beans your right one contract signed at a different time does not affect another contract, but if one affects terms set under the prior contract the have a bearing on each other. Is that all you have left to bitch about? Because if that's it then lets let it rest!

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



The B word didn't need to be used here. Refrain from personal attacks please.

Beans made a valid point, and if your only defence is to personally attack him and then tell him to "let it rest" . . . you have clearly lost that argument.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  11:08:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That has been my point from the start. There are two separate and distinct agreements. The 2nd agreement has never been argued. The first agreement was for $24 million (after the roll back) and Alfredsson received a shade more than $20 million including the buy out. How many years he played, how many points he scored, and every single other argument you have presented are completely irrelevant to my point. The team agreed to pay him $24 million for 5 years. The team (A+B=C) instigated a buy out. He recieved $20 million. The team benefited from that.

That has been my point from day one.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  11:35:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

That has been my point from the start. There are two separate and distinct agreements. The 2nd agreement has never been argued. The first agreement was for $24 million (after the roll back) and Alfredsson received a shade more than $20 million including the buy out. How many years he played, how many points he scored, and every single other argument you have presented are completely irrelevant to my point. The team agreed to pay him $24 million for 5 years. The team (A+B=C) instigated a buy out. He recieved $20 million. The team benefited from that.

That has been my point from day one.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Again, your point is wrong, it has always been wrong and you continue to fight when everyone else has said you are wrong. Alfredsson wasn't scheduled to make $24 million. Point me to something other than taking Cap geeks, $4.8 over 5 years to equal $24 million, find another source to back up this $24 million. Your point from day 1 has been wrong. $30 million x .76 = $22.8. Alfredsson received better than $20 million based on salary on cap geek and NHLnumbers.com, but you don't know if he received any other funds in bonus or other wise and even if he didn't he did not receive 100% because he didn't play to 100% of the term end of the contract. The buyout was not 100% of the final years term value. You don't even know if cap geek or NHLnumbers.com know 100% of what he truly received. Yet you continue to point to the highest recorded cap hit on a website on an independent website to back up your claims, even when pointed to evidence which contradicts this point.

The only way Alfredsson was gonna get full value for his contract was to play it to full term, which he did not. The fact I have to repeat this over and over again, for probably the 100th time makes you look very, very dumb.

I don't care that I made a personal shot, because personal shot have been made against myself and the offender has chosen not to apologize and had continue to do so without moderator recrimination to this point. So if calling his stupid repeated wrong comments being a bitch are then moderated, but calling me a moron, stupid etc etc are not moderated, I say to hell with it and will continue to do so until I get an apology.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  11:55:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You say the team instigated the buyout for the teams benefit. Can you say for absolute certainty Alfredsson hadn't threatened to withhold his services if they didn't renegotiate his contract. How do you know that this wasn't initially agreed upon by both parties during the initial signing of the first contract. The team initiated the paperwork for the buyout yes, but who or what caused them to do so? You don't know. The result of the buyout is Alfredsson received more pay than he was initially contracted to make in 2009, yet you continue to claim he received less than agreed upon. All of this benefitted the player.

IMO, this was a player/management agreement to circumvent the cap by playing 4 years of a 5 year contract to show a lowered cap hit, but ultimately pay him overall higher than the recorded cap hit. 2009 was not played under the 1st contract, but played at a much higher amount in the 2nd contract. I think the NHL thought this as well and included in the new CBA the stipulation that should a player be bought out in any year of a contract, thereby circumventing the cap, they could not resign the player for a calendar year. So Alfredsson played to the end of the 2nd contract because retiring would also have brought the NHL down hard on player and team for again trying to circumvent the cap. Alfredsson has already admitted to this.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  14:05:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, not sure how many times you have to read the same things to get this point:

1 - The player, in no way, shape, or form can instigate a buyout at all. That means the team is the only side that can approve a buyout. This is simple. So I can say, without question, the team induced the buyout. This can happen in a few ways. Firstly, the can simply state they are buying out the contract. Second, they can deny a team option for the final year of the deal. Third, they approve a player's option for the final year of the deal. But, there is NO WAY, the player could approve a buyout on their own. It is impossible.

2 - Read the top line of the capgeek website on Daniel Alfredsson's contract page that reads

Length:5yrs
Value:$24,084,754
Type: Standard
Expiry Status: UFA
Source: Capgeek

3 - The entire circumventing the agreement conversation is completely ridiculous. Read the CBA (at least the highlights) and understand what a team/player option for a final year of a contract is as well as a +35 yr old contract. They it will make sense.

4 - I am basing my arguments based on what I know. I have not based anything on something I do not know. I am using the capgeek dollar value and a little bit is simple logic and contract law to make my argument. Maybe his original contract wasn't quite $30 million. Regardless, Capgeek, which is the recognize expert in the area and is used by media outlets like TSN and RDS, stated the contract value to be $24 million after the rollback. He received $18.1 million for 4 years then $2.1 million for the buyout meaning he got less than $24 million. You keep telling me I am wrong but have not stated anything to prove that you are correct.

I'll keep believing in math and the information I DO know, you keep believing the things you don't know and that math is wrong.

Beans, out!

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  18:44:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well NHLnumbers.com is also considered a recognized expert on the subject as well and they pegged his cap average from 2005-09 at $4.4. Is one wrong? Could there be a bonus you don't know about. Capgeeks math does not make sense when you average the pay over the term. The NHL in the article you provided said they weren't sure where they were gonna apply the buyout to the cap hit. Its possible Capgeeks numbers averaged the pay over 2005-2009, whereas NHLnumbers.com shows it as added to pay in 2009-2012. Either way again this is not a math excercise because we dont know the true math involved.

I am gonna stop the buyout arguement because it is pointless. The team initiated the buyout, but you are drawing conclusions to why they did?

I read a post on another hockey fan website. The post was called "The Sens did Alfredsson a favor" which is equally split on the subject of Alfredsson. The option year you spoke of was talked about in detail and was not 2009. The option year you spoke of was in fact a 3 year option at $3.8 per year for 2010,11,12. It required Alfredsson to play 70 games while posting at least 70 points in 2009 and was the teams option to extend.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2013 :  18:54:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a way to perfectly illustrate how the math on capgeek is flawed, thereby your arguement incorrect as well. If Alfredsson was scheduled to make $24 million in 5 years between 2005-2009 and was scheduled to make 3+ million in 2009, how does $18.1 actual pay + $3.15 100% contract value in 2009 = $24 million? Answer that riddle and you will see why your math doesn't make sense. There has to be a bonus or incorrect math involved with capgeeks formula.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2013 :  10:25:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I have a way to perfectly illustrate how the math on capgeek is flawed, thereby your arguement incorrect as well. If Alfredsson was scheduled to make $24 million in 5 years between 2005-2009 and was scheduled to make 3+ million in 2009, how does $18.1 actual pay + $3.15 100% contract value in 2009 = $24 million? Answer that riddle and you will see why your math doesn't make sense. There has to be a bonus or incorrect math involved with capgeeks formula.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "




If that is the case, the math is flawed. Absolutely. The math I was using was adding each single season salary which adds up to $18.1. The difference between the $24 million of the contract and the $18.1 he was paid should be what his salary should have been in 2009, no??

Where did you get the $3.15 million salary for 2009??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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