| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Guest1791 |
Posted - 12/14/2010 : 20:39:30
With seguin in boston and another 1st round draft pick in the hands of the bruins. What kind of plans does Burke have for the Leafs?
It almost seems like this guy is caught in the middle, are we a team in prime or a young upcoming team? Sure they have young talent- Kessel, Phaneuf, schenn, Gustafson, and kadri but where has that led them? they don't have prospects up and coming. They don't get it done like they are now and there young guys arent necesarly that young.
Not to mention... What are they going to cough up to the Dallas stars in pursuit for Richards? i fail to understand the direction in which Burke is headed. |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 20:50:01
Topic is...whats the plan for Toronto ?? , next season...
They need...a 1st line LW...1st line RW...1st line Center ( two of these 3 with size )
Trade Giguere or let him walk ( free up 6.5 mil cap space ).
Give the Monster 1 full year with the Marlies...and just see...
Pick up a solid experienced goalie, ( Bryz. maybe ) and have Reimer as his backup.
Try to rid themselves of Komisarek`s contract and maybe trade Beauch. for a top prospect.
Trade Kaberle for a pick and a prospect.
Through UFA get the best available D-man who is younger and more physical than kaberle with some offensive up-side.
Bring up Aulie and maybe ( Holzer or similar D-man )
Of course the first need is almost impossible to fill and i realize this, but i`m just listing what they need, ( in my opinion ) After the 1st line requirements not being filled of course, all other moves can be realistic....its a start !
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 20:26:52
Just finished watching the Leafs vs Ca. game, my optimism for this year has diminished . They gave it their best try ( with the exception of kessel ) and it just wasn`t good enough.
Fact of the matter is Toronto has a team comprised of a great 2nd line with a 3rd and 4th to follow. Toronto doesn`t have any 1st line players, NONE. They just don`t have the front line guys to carry the load, and on top of this their coaching staff are not coaching the mould as they should with no 1st line.
Giguere is too old and slow for todays game, his reflexes are gone and his groin problems are also an issue. The monster is full of holes whenever he plays and has absolutely no confidence in himself.
People wonder why TO`s defenseman played better else-where...its because they had better support from their forwards. Toronto`s defense are constantly ringing the puck around the boards with no wall support what-so-ever, other teams are simply stopping the puck and firing it back in putting more pressue on the D-core leading to goals, thus making them look bad, its not all their fault.
Toronto hasn`t got 1 single center to win a face-off regularly. Their puck control off the draw is non-existent, they spend 70 % of the game trying to chase the puck down after losing the draw, using up much needed energy.
Wonder why their power-play is so lousy ?? They lose every initial face - off and spend too much time recouping the puck, once in the opposing end finally, no-one fires from the point. no-one goes to the net and some-one makes a high risk pass and gets picked off....every time.
The turning point for this up and down maple leaf team came when James Reimer played 2 outstanding games in LA and SJ. He won a few games and bred new life in every leaf player who dawns the Jersey. They played their best hockey of the season and scored regularly with their new found hero between the pipes. When leafs management then sent him back down to the AHL it was as if they kicked every leaf player in the guts....and it certainly showed the next game against the Flames.
It doesn`t matter if Reimer was for real or not, he gave them a much needed lift in a season with such turmoil, and it left just as fast as it came. This huge mistake by the leafs management, ( yes another one ) ended all hope right there and then, all because of politics and contracts.
Why not keep this kid going ? He was the best single thing to happen to the leafs all season. Who sez he can`t keep it up ? Cam Ward did it at the age of 21 and hasn`t looked back since. |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 18:42:58
And, as RC implied, keep your fingers crossed, 'cause Burke is basically rolling the dice.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 14:29:17
I was waiting for the sage wisdom of the most impartial and objective Leaf fan on the site. Thanks RC! It's pretty hard to argue with many points.
The most specific point that I would agree with in the coaching department. It's hard to not see the changes the team has and the fact that, at least on paper, the Leafs today should be a more talented group of players. Yet, the performance is nearly identical to last year and the year before.
All fingers point to coaching.
So we could all talk until we are blue(no pun intended) in the face about what players should and could be doing, but I think we all can agree that a big part of the Leafs plan needs to include a new direction in the coaching.
This system does not work, regardless of the players involved. |
| TheRC |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 10:50:29
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Leafs are going to be cup contenders any time soon, but when you compare the team of today with the team from two years ago, there is a HUGE difference.
The team of a few years ago wasn't going anywhere. Just the amount of dead weight Burke has managed to shift to other teams is incredible. This new team might not have the genuine star power you need to make a cup winner, but they are young and improving. Looking at the Marlies is one thing, and the picture there isn't great, but you have to think that a lot of the players currently on the ice are still quite young, and many are only going to get better.
Kulemin, Grabovski and Macarthur have been among the most productive lines in the league for the past couple months. I doubt they will continue at that pace, but they are decent second line material. Bozak has barely played a full season, and he is really improving lately; I don't think anybody will have issues with a third line of Bozak, Versteeg and Armstrong. As for grinders, they have those a-plenty. So that leaves the fact that Kessel doesn't have the center he needs to really start lighting things up. I still don't know if it will happen, but plug the one major hole by adding a guy like Brad Richards to that lineup, and then try telling me this is not a huge improvement over the likes of Stajan, Antropov and Hagman.
As for D, consider Schenn, Gunnarsson, Beauchemin and Aulie as solid defenders (no, not an army of Mini-Prongers, just solid defenders) hope that Phaneuf can get closer to his early career form, and then hope that Komisarek did indeed punch that woman in LA so the team has an excuse to buy him out, and then all you're looking for is a replacement for Kaberle. I would honestly just try and re-sign him. But, you say, "thats pretty much the same D the Leafs have now, and they suck" Fair point. That's why the most obvious thing Burke needs to do is get a new coach, one better suited to developing younger players. I've watched and played enough hockey in my day to know that Wilson has lost a good part of the dressing room. These aren't bad defensemen, but this is a bad defense corps. Who's fault do you think that is?
As for goal, well, with young goalies who the hell knows what will happen? That's not particularily encouraging, but probably two thirds of the teams in the league have worries in net, and at least there are solid prospects in the system.
I watch most Leaf games, and I see a decent upside for this team in the next couple years. I never saw that during the JFJ years. Cup team in the making? Again, no. But it's not like if they aren't champions in next year or two the whole process is a failure and the Leafs will be doomed to sit at the bottom of the standings for all eternity.
Say what you want about Burke, he's not the miracle worker many have hyped him up to be, he's made a few mistakes, and he's misjudged the quality of some of his players and his coach. I'm still impressed with how quickly he blew out the absolutely horrible team he started with, I think several of the players he's brought in still have an upside, and I respect that he plays to win. You can roll over and play dead for a few years and then emerge with a good young core through the draft, but I'm sorry, that lacks, what's the word... truculence?
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
| Lunchbox |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 01:29:58
I think the problem in Leafs nation is that they always seem to think (sometimes rightly) that they are a marginal playoff team... but then they think all they have to do is slip into 8th, and they can go on a Cinderella run to the cup,
The problem is that this rarely (if ever) happens...I noticed a lot of posts at the beginning of the year saying that the Leafs were playoff bound this year blah blah blah, only need a few more pieces yadda yadda.
What usually happens? the leafs end up around 9th or 10th in the conference (besides last year), get a weaker position in the draft, and they get fooled into thinking the next year, they only need to turn a few more close losses into wins and they would have done it.
The thing is, if my team misses the playoffs, I want them to be the worst team in the league, because at least they can get a lottery pick (again, besides this year, which is different for Toronto obviously).
So it seems like Burke is trying the same thing Toronto's brass has been trying for the last decade: to push an 11th - 9th place team into the playoffs with a few quick fixes. If it had worked, good for him, but its been two years now, and as some Canuck fans have posted previously, Burke knows how to work a draft and rebuild scenario.
I really think that this would be the way to go if third time isn't a charm for these guys, which its looking like it won't be. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 18:52:54
Yep, I agree that Burke did do some good stuff in Van and he did add some key pieces to Anaheim to help win that Cup.
He also traded away 2-1st round draft picks for a 30 goal scorer and banked his team on a 26 yr old premadonna defensemen who would rather make a big hit than play defense and is on pace for a killer 18 points just 2 years after scoring 60.
Each GM has good and bad moves in their career. Even Ken Holland is not perfect. Burke is not perfect either, but it is incredibly easy to be critical of a guy who made such blatant mistakes. And it's not Leaf Bashing. It's Leaf Fan bashing. You are the same person who was making outrageous claims of the Leafs winning the NE division at the start of the year. You are now the one making these' it's a work in progress' comments.
Why can't Leaf fans see the world as it is? The Leafs have not gotten better in the past 2 seasons under Burke's rule and they are not getting better unless they are doing through free agency. Burke did make some moves that were unexpected but his cards are played. He brought in Phaneuf and Kessel as his core and most hockey people can see that those two guys simply don't have the chops to lead a team anywhere. There is only two options. Go through UFA's or gut and rebuild again. So, if Richard's and the likes are not interested in Toronto this summer, what's next?? That's the entire point of this thread. What is the plan??
Leaf Bashing is not a national past time. It the Leaf Fans that make things so easy. No one is trashing the Sens or the Flames and both are in very similar situations as the Leafs. But they also do not have dilusional fans making outrageous claims about how good their team is or how good their team can be if this or if that. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 18:31:07
Beans you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph...what did Tambellini have to work with in Edmonton...??
Nothing much i guess, but does anyone in any of these forums analyze him to death or call him an idiot. This is what Slozo is constantly talking about, leaf bashing is a national past-time.
Maybe some of us are not in love with the Burke overall picture but sometimes you do ( as a leaf fan ) have to defend the guy with so much negative comments towards him.
Really, have the leafs gone backwards in your opinion ?? Maybe if another GM took over after JFJ they would be worse off than what they are now.
Nuxfan has posted a couple of times regarding ( in his opinion ) Burkes great additions while in Van. & Ana., adding greatly to both these teams successes. Do you agree with any of these comments ? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 15:45:43
Who are all of these Leafs prospects? I just looked through the Marlies roster and without using anything but stats, I don't see anything there. Their best prospects (Kadri, Mueller, Aulie) are no where near the top players in the AHL. Not even close. Heck, they are not even the best players on the Marlies!!
Who are all these prospects and why are the prospects?? Because TSN said so??
And we all know the past. Or the perceived past. Burke has done what to improve things?? Different players but the same results. Below average performance on the ice and below average talent on the farm.
Really, is this team much different than under the JFJ regime???
And don't act like the Leafs were the only team with issues. Anyone want to dig up what Tambellini had to work with when he took over? Nothing but overpaid, underacheiving players. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 15:22:20
Ryan its hard to clean up a mess when you inherit a monster mess. Remember what Burke had to work with upon his arrival in TO, i sure do.
Sure all of his moves have not been perfect, but who is perfect ?? Sundin just walking away sure didn`t help the leafs. If he would have waived a great draft pick and prospect surely would have came back TO`s way.
He inherited a team with no guts, ( remember cancer ridden Blake getting punched in the face with no help from his team-mates, Stagen looking on and skating away ), no desire to win, No goaltender, terrible defense, no toughness, no center ice-man, no power forwards, and over-paid contracts with no-trade clauses given by JFJ. Along with this the Marlies under JFJ`s guidence were dead last in the AHL as usual with NO POTENTIAL talent to bring up and help out.
Antropov just scored his first goal in 15 games for the thrashers. When Stagen scored againist the leafs last week it was his first goal in 19 games....these were Burkes building blocks when he arrived in Toronto.
Although he has made a couple of bad moves since arriving, he has made multiple great ones. When you pull off 15 - 20 moves it is only natural that 2 - 3 will back-fire...only common sense.
The leafs do have many prospects now, before they had ZERO. The Marlies finally have a pool to pick from and are fighting for FIRST in their division, major, major improvement. I do see several bright spots in the leafs roster, before there was NOTHING. |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:25:51
He very well could of (Selanne wanting to go back to Anaheim that is), i honestly have no clue. And while i agree that yes there were a lot of the pieces already in place, without Burke coming on board & making those moves happen, who knows. As you said, perhaps we'd see both Niedermayer & Selanne both end up in Anaheim regardless of who the GM is. Without Burke though, maybe the Ducks don't pursue Pronger seeing as they already have 1 highly paid defensemen (assuming of course that S.Niedermayer would still have signed in ANA). Maybe they don't add the defenseive depth with important defenders such as Beauchemin & O'Donnell, etc etc etc. While by no means does Burke deserve all of the credit, IMO he still deserves a lot.
As for Toronto, they have always been my 2nd favorite team, but that team is a mess! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:04:16
Ok, I stand correctly. However, and I am just asking here, didn't Selanne basically say he wanted to go back to Anaheim at that point??? Same and Neidermayer wanting to play with his brother regardless of the team?? And Pronger was a gift.
Regardless, I disagree that Burke was the driving factor of that team winning. Getlaf, Perry, MacDonald, Kunitz, R. Neidermayer(and defacto S. Neidermayer), Giguere, Penner, and Bryzgalov were there and Burke has zero impact on that. In the case that Selanne wanted to come back to Anaheim I have a hard time giving that to Burke either.
Regardless, this battle will continue for decades. The point being discussed is the Leafs currently plan. I think we can all agree that the moves that Burke was credited with in both Vancouver and Anaheim have not manifested in Toronto. |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:13:34
Overlooked to is that Brian Burke was the one who hired rookie head coach Randy Carlyle. |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:05:33
I actually just looked it up, Brian Burke was indeed the GM that brought Teemu Selanne back to Anaheim.
Burke joined the Ducks on June 20th, 2005...Selanne signed as a FA 2 months later, August 22nd, 2005.
I can't stand Burke, but i think he deserves A LOT of credit for that championship. For me the 5 most important players during that playoff run were Selanne, Niedermayer, Pronger, Getzlaf & Giguere...Burke brought in 3 of the 5. And as already stated he managed to deal away Sergei Fedorov, opening up the salary space for the above 3, and he was responsible for bringing in numerous members of the supporting cast as well. The teams strength was in their defense, and 3rd/4th defensemen Francois Beauchemin & Sean O'Donnell were both the results of Burke trades. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:05:32
quote:
Much like the old A+B=C, if Burke is responsible for the Canucks core and the GM's since just added a little bit to push them over the top, isn't the same true about Anaheim being built by Murray?? You can not say one thing regarding one team and the exact opposite regarding another team in the same situation.
At the time ANA won their cup, I believe that there was widespread acknowledgment that Murray was responsible for that cup - Burke was just along for the ride. He made a few good periphery deals, but if anyone thinks that ANA won that cup without Getzlaf/Perry/Selanne/Giggy (and Pronger and Niedermayer) they are out to lunch. Burke inherited a very solid core that had been drafted before him.
The same way that if the Canucks win the cup in the next couple of years, it will be significantly on the backs of the Sedin's, Kesler, Edler, Bieksa, all Burke picks. Gillis will be the GM that lifts the cup and gets the credit as a cup winning GM, but we all know who made those crucial draft picks 10 years before. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 12:56:05
bananas, i may have listed some of these players as blue - chip prospects earlier.
Jessie Blacker and Brad Ross were invited to team Canada`s WJ tryout camp. Both were late cuts but were good enough to be invited. Some hockey insiders were very surprised that Greg Mckegg ( 45 games this season, OHL..31 goals - 61 pts ) wasn`t invited.
Blacker is a point per game defenseman with good size......Ross is ( a point per game player ) described as a Steve Downie clone with scoring touch, some insiders say he is one of the hardest players in the CHL to play againist......whats not blue chip about these guys.
You haven`t got to be drafted in the 1st round to be blue - chip my friend....look up P.Datsyuk and H.Zetterburg
Sure if you are drafted in the 1st round the odds are with you but....As for SO -CALLED first round BLUE CHIP prospects, lets look at some of these 1st round can`t miss kids.
I picked at random the 2000 nhl entry draft...let us examine how many 1st round blue - chip prospects came along and developed.
4th...colu...Rostislov Klesla
7th...bos...Lars Jonsson
8th...tb...Nikita Alexeev
9th...cal...Brent Krahn
10th..chi...Mikhail Yakvbov
11th..chi... Pavel Vorobiev
12th,,ana...Alexei Smirnov
13th..mtl...Ron Hainsey
14th..col..Vaclav Nedorast
15th..buf..Artem Kryukov
16th..Marcel Hossa
17th..Alexei Mikhnov
19th..Krys Kolanos.....thats enough i`m sick of typing
5 out of the top 19 made NHL careers, the rest were a total waste of drafting, BUT WAIT...they were all ranked by NHL central scouting...what happened ?? this is the 1st round ?? the draft ( other than a Crosby, Ovie, Taveres, Hall ) is a crap shoot !!!
Neither you or anyone else has the ability to tell another person what thier perspective of who a blue - chip prospect is....NHL central scouting certainly can`t..
This list kinda puts a diffrent spin on the kessel trade doesn`t it...If TO didn`t finish in the bottom 5 in the league this trade would have never been talked about. TO would have won this trade hands down, BUT they finished 29th... |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 12:19:23
Yes, Selanne was in Anaheim when Burke got there.
The Fedorov deal was a great move, no doubt. Burke brought some pieces of the puzzle that helped them win (Moen, Pahlsson, etc) but I still contend that the bulk of the team was built by Murray.
Much like the old A+B=C, if Burke is responsible for the Canucks core and the GM's since just added a little bit to push them over the top, isn't the same true about Anaheim being built by Murray?? You can not say one thing regarding one team and the exact opposite regarding another team in the same situation. |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 10:04:37
I noticed in an earlier post (i forget from which poster) that said Teemu Selanne was already in Anaheim when Burke arrived.
Is this right? I thought Burke was the Ducks GM when Selanne was brought back...maybe i'm wrong though. |
| bananas |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 08:02:31
I think you have to give Burke a little more credit for anaheim than he seems to be getting here. He did trade Federov to the blue jackets to give himself a bunch of cap space, and I believe he got Beauchemin in that deal, who used to be good when he wasn't making boat loads of money. While the Niedermeyer and Pronger moves were somewhat handed to him, he still got them done.
You do not have to give him any credit for what he's done with the leafs. He seemed to believe his own hype and thought any move he made would work out well for. Unfortuneatley, every move he has made has been crap. He should have known he had a bad team when he took over and should have kept his draft picks. Everyone without a 416 area code knew they were bad.
Tthe thing that really annoys me about leaf fans is how you just accept that these are great moves. Your enablers of Burkes rampage. Your always defending the crap moves that the leafs make and over estimating the talent of your current team and prospects. I saw a post before that listed Blacker, McKegg, Kadri, Aulie and a few other future 3rd liners and 4th defenceman as blue chip prospects. Why are you calling them blue chips? Only Kadri was a high pick. Are you kidding me? A team that is about to finish in the bottom 5 of the league, has no first round pick and those are your blue chip prospects. Kadri maybe but he seems to have caught the blue and whie disease early. This is annoying and this is why we haters revel in the leafs current and sure to continue failure. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:25:46
alright porkchop, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you were just stirring the pot. I've only been posting here a year or so, so I don't really know your history.
and consider your attempt successful  |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:10:13
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Nonesense? Horrified? Why is wrong to compare the Leafs and Oil as they are today? What makes it nonesense? Truth is, in the NHL standings, the Leafs are ahead of the Oilers.
porkchop, this is precisely the forest that you are missing. Yay, TOR has more points than EDM, has players scoring more than EDM players. You are comparing stats for 2 teams that are both lousy - who cares? Are you drawing the conclusion that because TOR is doing better today that their rebuilding process is going better, or is more successful?
quote:
A comparsion of todays on ice product is a direct comparison of the improvement each club has made to date
When you are rebuilding your team from the bottom, it takes a long time to see success. Improvements made in year 1 mean very little.
Seriously Nuxfan, I already admitted a couple of post back that I was just trying to stir the pot and get something going because I was bored today.
Do you all remember how Hanley6 would post some wacko stuff and start everyone in an uproar. Thats all i was going for.
I think most people on here would remember me as being a relatively sane leafs fan that looked quite objectively at my favourite team.
By the way Leafs tried plan H tonight, failed. Quite disappointing and fustrating after executing well against a solid Ducks squad |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 17:41:02
quote:
Nonesense? Horrified? Why is wrong to compare the Leafs and Oil as they are today? What makes it nonesense? Truth is, in the NHL standings, the Leafs are ahead of the Oilers.
porkchop, this is precisely the forest that you are missing. Yay, TOR has more points than EDM, has players scoring more than EDM players. You are comparing stats for 2 teams that are both lousy - who cares? Are you drawing the conclusion that because TOR is doing better today that their rebuilding process is going better, or is more successful?
quote:
A comparsion of todays on ice product is a direct comparison of the improvement each club has made to date
When you are rebuilding your team from the bottom, it takes a long time to see success. Improvements made in year 1 mean very little. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 16:14:00
You are exactly right, statistically today the Leafs are better than the Oilers. However, this thread is a discussion of the Leafs plan, not a comparison of the two teams. If you would like to compare the Oilers it would be to contrast the plans. One is very draft driven and the other is not. Which is better?? Only time will tell.
|
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 15:07:22
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Although I would not say 'nonsense' as a description of that post, I would perfer to use a phrase such as, "I am intersted in learning more about this unique and challenging opinion."
In other words, what???
Leaf fans, what can you do. There is a significant shortage of either optometrists of Lenscrafts in Toronto as they seem to see the world far differently than those outside of TO.
I would like to see a list of Oiler players who have left since 2000. Let's talk about the relevant past, not 20 years ago. And what on God's green earth does TV rights have to do with the team???
Need I continue??
OK so I was bored out of my mind today, i had to watch the kids and there is absolutely nothing to do and I haven't posted in a while. I thought I would stir the pot a little. And U all were ganging up on poor Slozo and he had no help at all.
Beans your are right, the TV rights was just an off the cuff thing with no relevance at all, but worth the shot.
The stars leaving Oil country was a reference to Pronger not wanting to play there and Heatley outright refusing to go there. Again not relevant to my comparison of Leafs/Oil but I had to take some shots.
Truth is I am almost as much an Oil fan as I am a Leaf fan. I said almost. There are some people on here who refuse to see some others point of view and I was just trying to make a point of that.
Leafs statistically are still better then the Oil though.
|
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 14:56:37
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Chop both the bruins & Coyotes have 6players, unfortunately the Flyers have 7. 8 if you include that Bobrovski was brought over from Russia like Gustavsoon for the leafs. I will tilt a bit but i bow cannot be completed until the task is accomplished
Lemieux owns Gretzky
I don't think undrafted players should count as that does not support your arguement of draft players, also then the Leafs would have 9 players with 12 having played at least one game. IMO it goes against your arguement.
Ok so we have the Bruins and Yotes take the Flyers off and add NYR, they have 6
The Wild have six on the current roster but have had 8 of their draft picks play at least 1 game (not sure if that counts, its your game)
The Flames they have 5 but have had 6 draft picks play at least one game.
Tampa has 6 and 7 have played at least one game.
Anaheim currently has 5
There is 7 out of 29 with Boston, Phoenix, Tampa and Anaheim in the top 15
I must admit a difficult task and I had to go and look at some these closely. Well challenged and I give u a nod. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 14:06:55
Chop both the bruins & Coyotes have 6players, unfortunately the Flyers have 7. 8 if you include that Bobrovski was brought over from Russia like Gustavsoon for the leafs. I will tilt a bit but i bow cannot be completed until the task is accomplished
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 14:00:14
Although I would not say 'nonsense' as a description of that post, I would perfer to use a phrase such as, "I am intersted in learning more about this unique and challenging opinion."
In other words, what???
Leaf fans, what can you do. There is a significant shortage of either optometrists or Lenscrafters in Toronto as they seem to see the world far differently than those outside of TO.
I would like to see a list of Oiler players who have left since 2000. Let's talk about the relevant past, not 20 years ago. And what on God's green earth does TV rights have to do with the team???
Need I continue?? |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Porkchop, i'm horrified at your "on ice today" comparison. So much so, that i will keep this short for now to save a moderators time in lecturing me if i really said what i feel about your post. Serioulsy, just go re-read that nonsense and maybe, just maybe you'll understand where i'm coming from. Just answer me this, cuz this is more where the conversation was until you came along and threw a curveball into the mix.
If i offered you a million dollars to predict which team would be higher in the standings in 2-3 years from now between Toronto and Edmonton, who'd you pick?
Nonesense? Horrified? Why is wrong to compare the Leafs and Oil as they are today? What makes it nonesense? Truth is, in the NHL standings, the Leafs are ahead of the Oilers.
Answer to your question - Oilers
Alex, with all due respect, I have never once said the Oil were not better placed for the future then the Leafs.
Answer me this Alex - If I had made on "on ice today" comparison of the Oil and Isles would you be horrified? |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:03:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
LA Lakers, Best Player Kobe Bryant (Draft pick, honourable mention to Bynum) sure other great players brought on board but their just another team without Kobe.
Mario......i get where you were going with your "draftee" post and i agree. One thing i did notice, was you said Kobe was drafted by LA. Well, i recalled him being drafted by Charlotte actually and then dealt to LA. Before i called you on it, i decided to research it and found this from wikipedia:
1996 NBA DraftThe first guard to ever be taken out of high school, Bryant was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996.[27] However, according to Arn Tellem, Bryant's agent at the time, Bryant playing for the Charlotte Hornets was "an impossibility".[28] However, Bill Branch, the Hornets' head scout at the time, said that the Hornets agreed to trade their draft selection to the Lakers the day before the draft. The Lakers didn't tell the Hornets who to select until five minutes before the pick was made.[29] Prior to the draft, Bryant had worked out in Los Angeles, in which he scrimmaged against former Lakers players Larry Drew and Michael Cooper, and according to then-Laker manager Jerry West "marched over these people".[30] On July 1, 1996, West traded his starting center, Vlade Divac, to the Hornets in exchange for Bryant's draft rights.[31] Since he was still 17 at the time of the draft, his parents had to cosign his contract with the Lakers until he was able to sign his own when he turned 18 before the season began.[32]
So, in reality, while he wasn't drafted "BY" them, he certainly was "picked" by them. Kinda makes you wrong and right at the same time! lol  |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:01:24
Porkchop, i'm horrified at your "on ice today" comparison. So much so, that i will keep this short for now to save a moderators time in lecturing me if i really said what i feel about your post. Serioulsy, just go re-read that nonsense and maybe, just maybe you'll understand where i'm coming from. Just answer me this, cuz this is more where the conversation was until you came along and threw a curveball into the mix.
If i offered you a million dollars to predict which team would be higher in the standings in 2-3 years from now between Toronto and Edmonton, who'd you pick?
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| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 12:39:56
Beans, I digress. I did say candidate in my post and Hall would fit the definition of legitimate candidate. When making the post I was thinking of players who would be definite winners and IMO Hall is in third in the Calder race. To appease all the bashers, the Leafs have absolutely no one within distance of being a Calder candidate. |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 12:26:56
Mario it is you who said EVERY OTHER SPORT DEVELOPS THROUGH THEIR DRAFT. From your reply I can tell you need to spend more time on your research before posting.
3 teams in the top 15 or
5 teams out of 29 without 7 to 10 players of their current roster, drafted by them, making a significant contribution......hmmm I'll bite
Philly, Phoenix, Boston - 3 teams in the top 15 in the NHL that DON'T have 7 to 10 of their own drafted players on the current roster making a significant contribution to the teams succes. Really a shame isn't it, every player as a role on a team whether you think it a key role or not. Again you prove your ignorance.
Do me a favour and remain standing, no need to bow, i hate grovelling.
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 12:12:11
Well, the Oilers rebuild started after the Leafs but who gonna bring up one little year. Secondly, Calder CANDIDATE. Does that not mean a player who is in the running and potentially getting nominated?? Nope, the Oilers have none of those. Not Hall and not Eberle who was right in the running until an injury. Even Pajaarvi has 18 points. That's 12 more than all of the Leafs rookies combined.
And to compare teams is not a measure against their improvement. A measure against that team and what they have done since the 'rebuild' is reasonable.
Duke, I am not sugar coating anything anymore. If you can't see that Burke already had Getzlaf, Penner, Perry, Selanne, and Gigiuere there already and had a gift wrapped Neidermayer and Pronger deals than I can't help you. Bobby Ryan was a draft pick of Burke's and really the only decent move that he made in Anaheim. He was also the one who allowed all but 4 of the Anaheim players become UFA's in the same season. Brilliant hockey management, right??
So he made a trade to draft the 2nd Sedin and drafted Kesler. I never questioned his abilities to see good draft picks in high positions but name me a GM that can't draft a top 5 pick?? In some cases the draft pick is given to the GM, not the other way around. It's like saying Ray Shero is a genius for picking Sidney Crosby. Tell me some players outside of a top 5 draft pick that Burke has drafted?? Secondly, who brought in Malhotra, Torres, Erhoff, Edler, Luongo, et al into Vancouver??? It wasn't Burke. The team taht Burke built couldn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs and still hasn't. If they do this year, it is based on the changes made since Burke left as his team wasn't successful.
Regardless, over time I will continue to poke at the Leafs as they continue to get older and crappier while the Oilers continue to draw off the never ending fountain of talented youth. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 11:53:31
By the way Beans...as for your Burke Bashing....THE MAIN CORE of Vancouver`s success was put their directly by B. Burke. ( H.Sedin, D.Sedin, R.Kesler ) Everything else was built around them, if not for this CORE, this team would still be like every other team.
Where were the Ducks before Burkes arrival ?? Did he not bring in many peices to win the Stanley Cup ?? Maybe if another GM would have taken them over and moved in another direction they would still not have a Stanley Cup !!! Very unfair Bashing by you i think, i maybe don`t like the man but he is a proven WINNER !!! |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 11:51:17
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
The only real comparison is what is on the ice today and from what I see from the NHL standings, the Leafs are 8 points better then the Oilers. The Leafs have 5 players with more points then the Oilers leading point getter. The Leafs have 4 players with more goals then the Oilers leading goal scorer. In goal the Leafs have an edge in GAA but lose a edge to Oil tenders in SV% and DUIs. Neither team have a legitimate Rookie of the year candidate, Hart Trophy candidate, Norris Candidate or candidate for any hardware for that manner.
The Oil without a doubt will finish last in the West, no contest. The Leafs, thanks to the Devils, will finish somewhere above last in the East.
If this is the thinking in TO, then I can see the Leafs are going to continue to fail for years to come. Look through all those trees guys, there is a forest there as well! Teams like TOR (and EDM) should be thinking about the future, not the present - in the present they both lose. EDM is addressing their future now, what is TOR doing?
quote:
You can argue prospects, but that is the biggest unknown of any team. That is why they are called prospects. There will be failures and surprises from each teams prospects so it is not even worth the the mention.
I'm not really sure why I'm defending the Oilers here... but I find it interesting that EDM constantly gets put down for their roster of rookies from TOR fans. Can't help but think that if Hall, Eberle, and MPS were all playing for TOR right now, we'd never hear the end of the "next one is ours", "TOR is set for the future", "in 3 years we'll dominate" mantra. Hall would be a guaranteed rookie of the year, Eberle would be the next Gilmour. The cup would be 2 or 3 years away.
A comparsion of todays on ice product is a direct comparison of the improvement each club has made to date. Some one else posted they started their rebuild at around the same point so I felt compelled to do a comparison today. But somehow you turned that into the Leafs will fail for years to come. Brilliant logic. And I can't see the forest for the trees.......ummm what? How does that even make sense in the middle of your post. Unless you are refering to you not being able to see the point I was making.
Where did I put down the Oil rookies, they are an impressive bunch for sure. But these are players on the Oil roster today which adds to the excitement Oil fans should have, they are no longer prospects but an important piece of the Oil puzzle. Hence the comparisons of the on ice product.
I have hard time finding anywhere where I said how the Oil are rebuilding is wrong and or how the way the Leafs are doing is right. Never said that anywhere. In fact never said the Oil were right and Leafs are wrong.. In my other reply to SuperMario there (aka the hockey insider) I make my point of the draft is not the only way to build prospects.
Unlike how non leaf fans who hack at everything Leaf, I never even took a shot a Oil fans in my comparison. Nor did I say the Oil are the worst at anything. It was a simple comparison of on ice product (with a little jab at the end admittingly).
Beans - really, ignorance displayed by me - Hall is a fine player but he is certainly running third in the Calder campaign to Jeff Skinner and Logan Coutoure. Hall really needs a strong finish to get into the top two. That does not mean that Hall is not going to do exactly that or be a superstar, maybe even next year, ie Stamkos. Eberle and MPS are not even in the equation but excellent rookies all the same. Stop reading between the lines and then try to claim ignorance on my part. Or did you not get my point.
I love how my comparison was taken as a total diss of the Oil, when in fact all I did was compare what happens to be MY two favourite hockey teams in NHL as they are on the ice today. But because you all know I am a Leaf fan well I am just plain ignorant.
So, other then the jab at the end about stars wanting to leave Edmonton, someone point out where I said the Oil rookies are crap or the Oil have no future or the Oil organization is heaps of ruins or the Oil are wrong in their rebuilding process and the Leafs are the kings of the entire universe.
All my comparison did was, If we are saying the Oil and Leafs started their rebuilding at the same time, then the Leafs are doing better today. Do I say that again or are we not seeing the forest for the trees! |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 11:46:47
Would like to comment on some points being made....
As for Burke saying, playoffs is our goal....and Tambellini not....what would you like your GM to say, oh were crap and i know we are not going anywhere ??...Tambellini had good reason not to mention the playoffs because he knew it would be a pipe-dream.....( at least the leafs had some expectations coming into the season ) but did T.Renney not say several weeks ago that he would be surprised if these Oilers didn`t make the playoffs this year ???...or something along these lines.
When it comes to these teams prospects, other than Hall and maybe Eberle, none of these players may not become great NHL regulars, who knows. They are what they are Beans, prospects. How do you know any of these players you listed will be better than TO`s prospects. Hall and Eberle yes, as for the rest who knows ?? Blacker, Ross, Aulie, Diamgo, Irwin, Kadri and Mckegg i think are supposed to be blue - chip leaf prospects, maybe one of them will be great.
As for the average drafted prospect, they mean diddely - squat, if the leafs ( or any other team ) sign a free agent player with $$$, ( eg ) Colby Armstrong, F.Beauch....and a team like the Oliers for example ( who are building through the draft ) use 2 prospects to fill their team needs...WHATS THE DIFFERENCE ?? Unless the drafted pick is an Hall or Seguin, the team signing the hand - picked UFA will probably be ahead....WHO CARES ABOUT MEDIUM TALENT DRAFTEES ??...they are a complete wash !!!
Guest 4050 ( Mario ?? )
As for your comments about Kova., Hossa, Savard, Gaborik not coming to the leafs...i think its the opposite. Did you ever think that maybe the leafs didn`t want to tie up a s*** load of cap space in these over-paid ( massive long term contract )...non - aggressive playoff performers, with the exception of Savard maybe.
Kovy is a floater, look how great NJ has become with him. Hossa isn`t very aggressive, with no team committment and loyality where-ever he goes. Gaborik is injury prone and has been known to disappear when it gets rough. Savard has a very, very long contract and multiple concussions. I`m glad TO hasn`t signed any of these guys you mentioned, hand - cuffing them for years.
What Richards are you talking about not coming to TO ?? I can`t remember TO having a shot at either, when did this happen ?
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
[quote]
I'm not really sure why I'm defending the Oilers here... but I find it interesting that EDM constantly gets put down for their roster of rookies from TOR fans. Can't help but think that if Hall, Eberle, and MPS were all playing for TOR right now, we'd never hear the end of the "next one is ours", "TOR is set for the future", "in 3 years we'll dominate" mantra. Hall would be a guaranteed rookie of the year, Eberle would be the next Gilmour. The cup would be 2 or 3 years away.
Here here!! Exactly.
Not only the comments that would be a heard out of the Leaf nation if they had some young, aspiring talent. But imagine if the Oilers made the trades that the Leafs did last year?? Phaneuf would be a complete bum and a waste of money with his pace of 1 goal and 18 points. He would not be 'given more time.' Giguere?? Well, there is a perfect example. No one can tell me there is a landslide improvement between Giguere or Khabibulin. Both have one Cup in their career and Giguere is nearly a decade from his Conn Smythe. However, Khabibulin is old and showing his age and Giguere is a solid contributing vet who should stay to help bring the young guys along.
It's the blue tinted glasses, the most biased fans(generally speaking) in the NHL and many of them post daily on PUH. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:50:15
*Sorry to everyone else who is interested in Hockey but Chop felt the need to make a pointless and overall sport comment. So you can bypass if you are only interested in hockey or scroll directly to the bottom of the post for strictly hockey response*
I thought we where mature enough to keep it to North American sports not to mention football, soccer, basketball & baseball either have no salary caps or their payrolls are 8 times the size of nhls. If you would like to include Soccer please use Barcelona as your example who are by far the best team in the world and are notorious for bringing players up through their system ever hear of guys like Xavi, Iniesta, and this guy named Messi all a result of their development system. Draft picks still insignifcant? Well let me help your arguements some more
These basketball teams you speak of besides the fact your ignorance allowed you to dismiss the fact that basketball is a sport that you can buy championships thus why 3 teams own more then 50% of the titles ever won. You clearly forgot that these best in the leagues teams you speak of are built around their draft picks / prospects. LA Lakers, Best Player Kobe Bryant (Draft pick, honourable mention to Bynum) sure other great players brought on board but their just another team without Kobe. Boston Celtics two best players Paul Pierce & Rajon Rando (Draft picks) and boston is just an overage decent team without them & the Orlando Magic two best players Dwight Howard, Jameer Nelson (Draft Picks) Had you wanted to prove a part of your point the Miami Heat would of been your best example of Wholesale buying but that type of thing cannot be accomplished in the NHL as the salary cap prevents such a thing. Your insignificance & lack ot overall sports knowledge carries on
By no means am i Kypreos nor do i wish to be as Kypreos has a 3rd of the hockey knowledge Pierre Macguire does. Leave it up to a leaf fan to use a homer analogy in an attempt to be smug you may have bumped your head like Kyp did though. Nor am I a GM but if s**t is brown i will tell you its brown and if a proven formula of drafting players with a salary cap is the way to win a cup then i will stick with the proven formula.
All your ignorance did was cause you to focus on other sports that are not comparible to the nhl because their markets are 8 - 10X the size and therefore money is not an issue. Thus i show you Detroit prior to salary cap with the ability to buy talented players and win cups. Teams now built through draft picks and prospects i apoligize that i failed to include the few non drafted players that come around as frequently as leafs 100 point seasons. (Cups would be rude to other leaf fans who didn't feel the need to bring up other leagues that the nhl cannot compete with economically as example.)
If you can show me 3 teams in the Nhl ranked in the top 15; do yourself one better and find 5 teams out of 29 (exclude the leafs as they remove all their draft picks ) that dont have atleast 7 - 10 draft picks playing a key roll in their teams success or failure i will gladly bow down to you and acknowledge that your overall sports knowledge is superior to everyone else especially my own aka Kypreos. Until then you just furthered my point that even in Sports with loads of money draft picks are still essential but thanks for the attempted diversifed sports lesson. Do yourself & your boy Kyp a favour and stick to hockey which this thread should be about.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:16:19
quote:
The only real comparison is what is on the ice today and from what I see from the NHL standings, the Leafs are 8 points better then the Oilers. The Leafs have 5 players with more points then the Oilers leading point getter. The Leafs have 4 players with more goals then the Oilers leading goal scorer. In goal the Leafs have an edge in GAA but lose a edge to Oil tenders in SV% and DUIs. Neither team have a legitimate Rookie of the year candidate, Hart Trophy candidate, Norris Candidate or candidate for any hardware for that manner.
The Oil without a doubt will finish last in the West, no contest. The Leafs, thanks to the Devils, will finish somewhere above last in the East.
If this is the thinking in TO, then I can see the Leafs are going to continue to fail for years to come. Look through all those trees guys, there is a forest there as well! Teams like TOR (and EDM) should be thinking about the future, not the present - in the present they both lose. EDM is addressing their future now, what is TOR doing?
quote:
You can argue prospects, but that is the biggest unknown of any team. That is why they are called prospects. There will be failures and surprises from each teams prospects so it is not even worth the the mention.
I'm not really sure why I'm defending the Oilers here... but I find it interesting that EDM constantly gets put down for their roster of rookies from TOR fans. Can't help but think that if Hall, Eberle, and MPS were all playing for TOR right now, we'd never hear the end of the "next one is ours", "TOR is set for the future", "in 3 years we'll dominate" mantra. Hall would be a guaranteed rookie of the year, Eberle would be the next Gilmour. The cup would be 2 or 3 years away. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:14:38
Slozo, the Oilers currently have Dubnyk, Pitton, and Roy as their potential goalies. None are stand out elite players(today) but none are hacks either. One defense. they have Whitney who is just 26, Smid under 26, Jeff Petry, Theo Peckham, Taylor Chorney, Alexe Plante, Johan Motin, Richard Piotet, and Shawn Belle.
Granted, I don't expect your admitted lack of having any idea what happens in Edmonton to know those players, but that's the typical ignorance in this argument. Much like the ignorance displayed by Chop in his 'no Calder potentail" players with the Oilers. Even though the Oilers currently have 3 rookies in the top 15 in points, including Hall who is 4th and just 4 points out of 2nd in rookie scoring.
It must by Saturday. Nothing but typical Leaf crap everywhere you look. |
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