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Guest1791
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 Posted - 12/14/2010 : 20:39:30
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With seguin in boston and another 1st round draft pick in the hands of the bruins. What kind of plans does Burke have for the Leafs?
It almost seems like this guy is caught in the middle, are we a team in prime or a young upcoming team? Sure they have young talent- Kessel, Phaneuf, schenn, Gustafson, and kadri but where has that led them? they don't have prospects up and coming. They don't get it done like they are now and there young guys arent necesarly that young.
Not to mention... What are they going to cough up to the Dallas stars in pursuit for Richards? i fail to understand the direction in which Burke is headed.
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Guest5806
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Posted - 12/14/2010 : 21:16:35
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| PRAY!!!! |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 00:50:14
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 06:12:54
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Well, if we take what Burke has said from the beginning, it is to build a true contender for the Stanley Cup in a few years. He has said repeatedly that he doesn't feel that in today's management of NHL teams that you have to wallow at the bottom of the standings for 5 years getting draft picks, and although there are teams that have followed that exact same route (Chicago, Pittsburgh) there are teams that haven't had to do that either (Detroit, San Jose, Vancouver) to be a top contender.
And for now, I take Burke at his word.
No journey is totally smooth, and of course, there have been some bumps along the way - the big one being the Kessel deal as an overpayment because of the high draft pick last year (Seguin). Still, it's debateable, as who knows what the future holds for Seguin and the first rounder this year (and the other pick as well) . . . Seguin looks like he'll be an NHLer, but how good he gets we don't know yet.
But putting that bump aside, there were some major coups, not the least of which was dealing Toskala and Blake for something more than a bag of frozen pucks. I think he got very good return in the Phaneuf/Sjorstrom/Aulie deal, and although the Komisarek deal looks terrible right now, he has shaped up the defence quite nicely from where it was before. It is, at least, a direction going forward . . .
Still work to do for the forwards (and yes, I am all for getting Brad Richards), but we are getting there. So far, I give Burke a B+, and I think by next year and the year afterward, we are a dangerous team with a chance, IF (and I do realise it's a big if) we can shore up the forwards, and do some nip and tuck at D.
Hopefully, to answer your question, the plan is to continue to build a real Stanley Cup contender for the near future. Barring any major bumps along the road, I think we are halfway there.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest7595
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 08:55:56
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You give Burke a B+? I dont get how Burke deserves any sort of "B"
He gave up a future star in Seguin and what's going to be another decent draft pick. His team's first line center for the first 20 some games (and maybe even still is) Tyler Bozak. Since when is TYLER BOZAK a 1st line center? this team is made up of solid 3rd liners besides Kessel who is the only deserving 1st liner. Colton orr plays every game which is a mistake because he doesn't get ,more than 10 points a year. your enforcers are good. But not every game.. unless you can produce some points. (There's more than 1 of those type of guys on toronto) Brown comes to mind.
I don;t see these guys being even close to successful with the team they have now ESPICIALLY when there's no young guns to look forward to. Good luck leafs, and good luck keeping your job Burke |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 09:06:30
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quote:
Hopefully, to answer your question, the plan is to continue to build a real Stanley Cup contender for the near future. Barring any major bumps along the road, I think we are halfway there.
The Leafs are "halfway there"? They have one legitimate top-6 forward and two legitimate top-4 dmen, one of which will certainly leave before next season, and a semi-promising goaltender. No good draft picks for the foreseeable future.
I'm not sure how that gets a team halfway to contending for the cup. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 13:35:10
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Even if you sign Brad Richards for 6 million a year, (which you won't unless he takes a discount) there goes all of your cap space to add any other impact player, does Brad Richards take this team from bottom of the league to a cup contender? Having 2 legit top 6 forwards is really gonna turn it around? This team liturally has no futur Kadri Aulie and Gunnerson are good prospects to have but you have to have more than that.. I can't see how this team is gonna get out of the doghouse!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Guest2000
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 14:50:55
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Even though i can not stand the leafs i do see a potential glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Jerry D'amigo will be a solid nhler and those of you unaware pay attention to the world jr tourney, Kadri will be a top six forward next yr or the yr after and even though anything is possible do not be surprised if you find Zack Parise in a blue & white jersey next october. So their is a potential for 4 top six forwards in the next 2 yrs plus McCarthur & Grabovski have been respectible and you can never have enough colby armstrong's. If the leafs can manage to get a beauchemin, komasarek or jeff finger contract off of their books their is a possibility. Yes, there are a s**t load of ifs ands or buts but if pitt was lucky enough to get crosby in a draw then maybe the leafs will be lucky enough to find a datsuyk or zetterberg later on in the draft.
Also, Kessel is still only 23 & will easily eclipse 30 goals again this yr which will give him 3 straight seasons of 30 plus. Until Seguin & draft pick to be named later eclipse those numbers then you can hardly call it a bust, more like a potential ill-advised move to get american talent. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 15:27:32
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Guest, do you realize what Brian Burke inherited ?? Come `on give the guy a break. I`m still undecided on Burke but give him 3 years and see where the leafs are.
Sure every1 brings up the kessel trade, did Burke know the leafs where to finish 29 th ?? i sure didn`t...i watch a whole lot of hockey and i didn`t think their season would be so lousy. How were we to know Toskala was going to be Swiss Cheese ?? I figured the leafs to finish between 15 th and 20 th...not 29 th.
Guest, Brian Burke did not trade Seguin for kessel,he got kessel for draft picks, how the hell did he know it was going to be second overall ?? Unless your going to 1st , 2nd , or 3rd in the draft...who knows who you are going to get.
Let me demonstrate @ random the 2003 NHL entry draft...i`ll list some early picks who you will know, and some later ones who are common known names.
Drafted position ....and name :
4th ...Nikolai Zherdev..... colum
6th ...Milan Michalek........sj
10th...Andrei Kostitsyn....mtl
11th...Jeff Carter
13th...Dustin Brown
14th...Brent Seabrook
17th ...Zach Parise
19th ...Ryan Getzlaf
23rd...Ryan Kesler
24th...Mike Richards
28th...Corey Perry
33rd...Loui Eriksson
45th...Patrice Bergeron
49th...Shea Weber
As you can see Burke traded DRAFT PICKS for kessel who was proven...maybe too many draft picks but  . There is no sure thing in a draft. These players are pre - ranked by NHL central scouting and scouted by teams themselves AND still SCOUTS SCREW UP BIG TIME. Burke took the 1 bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush approach but his team drowned and gave Boston a 2nd over-all pick...that happens, so we`ll get over it.
As for the Leafs overall team age, their the YOUNGEST team in the NHL @ 25.8 years average ...Edmonton is the second youngest team in the league @ 25.9 years.
The leafs this year are a very, very fast team but are so inconsistent. Some nights they look great and others horrible. They are so young, lets give them time and some more tinkering by Mr.Burke and see what happens. |
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Guest4125
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 16:03:05
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all this talk about giving away top picks....selling off the "future". aren't young guys like Kadri, Schenn, Kessel, Bozak, Kulemin, Aulie, DiAmigo, Gustavsson, Versteeg, Phaneuf, etc. part of our future?
as for 1st round picks........weren't Sjostrom, Phanuef, Kadri, Schenn, Kessel all 1st round picks?
both Aulie and D'Amigo were part of gold medal teams at the World Jrs.
Reimer is apparently doing quite well down in the AHL.
it may not be a proto-typical rebuild, but it's definitely a youth movement. only difference is that Burke is using some already proven players (Kessel, Phaneuf, Versteeg) to do it.
the main problem is that everyone looks at this team now and says "what the hell has Burke done??" they aren't seeing them down the road in about 3 years time when this young crop will have more experience under there belt. guys like Bozak, who came from the NCAA, take more time to develop. others like Kadri, Schenn, Aulie, and D'Amigo have barely hit puberty. give them time.
and you also have to keep in mind that Burke will be adding more pieces as the years go on. you can bet that Kaberle and Giggy will both be gone in three years, if not next year, just as one example.
give it time. it may not be a rebuild, but it still requires patience. something that Leaf fans and media are not used to having. |
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Guest5361
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 16:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4125
all this talk about giving away top picks....selling off the "future". aren't young guys like Kadri, Schenn, Kessel, Bozak, Kulemin, Aulie, DiAmigo, Gustavsson, Versteeg, Phaneuf, etc. part of our future?
as for 1st round picks........weren't Sjostrom, Phanuef, Kadri, Schenn, Kessel all 1st round picks?
both Aulie and D'Amigo were part of gold medal teams at the World Jrs.
Reimer is apparently doing quite well down in the AHL.
it may not be a proto-typical rebuild, but it's definitely a youth movement. only difference is that Burke is using some already proven players (Kessel, Phaneuf, Versteeg) to do it.
the main problem is that everyone looks at this team now and says "what the hell has Burke done??" they aren't seeing them down the road in about 3 years time when this young crop will have more experience under there belt. guys like Bozak, who came from the NCAA, take more time to develop. others like Kadri, Schenn, Aulie, and D'Amigo have barely hit puberty. give them time.
and you also have to keep in mind that Burke will be adding more pieces as the years go on. you can bet that Kaberle and Giggy will both be gone in three years, if not next year, just as one example.
give it time. it may not be a rebuild, but it still requires patience. something that Leaf fans and media are not used to having.
But you're loseing with all these guys and they are all on the decline save Kadri and Kessel |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 16:35:40
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I would be very hard pressed to give Burke anything more than a C. He did do well in his attempts to clean up the dressing room and remove the dead weight. Picking up the players in both the Blake deal and the Tosaka package deal was good. The Kessel deal is a lose, anyway you look at it, as it removes future opportunities. I has proven to the point to be just that. A lose.
It might be a 3 year plan, however for a 3 year plan to been successful there has to be progress through those 3 years. There has not been any progress yet. So there has to be a ton of progress in the next 18 months or so. It's a tall order.
And to use the excuse of the team Burke inherited is weak. Very weak. Edmonton was a team in shambles when Tambellini took over and he has been able to put the ship in the right direction and build a plan for the future. Dallas was a team in shambles who were also able to steer the ship into a different direction.
Furthermore, even when looking at teams like Detroit and San Jose, they did not build their teams completely without the draft. There is almost certainly a 50% draft, 50% trade/FA process with any successful team. Burke's moves have severely limited their abilities in the draft. That can no be denied.
But, in the end, it's all about performance. For to this point, the Leafs are no better today than they were before Burke took over and without some magic, it is hard to think they are improving moving forward.
Time will tell, but Burke is at best a C today. Average. |
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Guest4093
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 18:42:22
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| You say there a team of 3 years from now? Yet they're goign after Brad Richards who will be way out of his prime in 3 years. Not even Leaf fans understand what Burke's doing, based on these different views. I totally agree with guest 5361. This team isn't clicking and these so called "young prospects" (phaneuf, kessel, ext) aren't young. they are in there prime at age 24 and they don't get any cheaper from there. So... In 3 years from now. If they keep this up... they will be sitting 10-15th in there conference just like they are now |
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Guest4093
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 18:48:19
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| The Duke. GM's take a risk when trading with draft picks. you say he got unlucky? but i say.. he was stupid to take that chance. "ok i have an idea. lets trade 2 potentially good 1st round draft picks for 1 good player. that way, my team will have 1 great player and a bunch of 3rd line guys. yep... this will go great" "Oh and i almost forgot... lets suit up Orr and Brown every night, maybe they will have Crosby like seasons" |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 18:52:07
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But Beans the Oilers aren`t winning either, are they better right now than they were 2 years ago ? stats wise...no
But they are better because they`ve picked up younger, more talented players...So Have The Leafs....Edmonton may have 2 or 3 who are more skilled and thats it.
People give the Oilers a break when they lose....Oh they have a young team....guess what, the Leafs are younger, but when they lose...their bums, washed up, blow it up...etc...
I used the 2003 draft as an example of the kind if players a team can aquire without picking 2nd or 3rd overall...some pretty impressive players there.
How can you say the kessel deal Severly hampered TO`s rebuild ?O.K lets say kessel cancels out 1 first round pick, so you are saying Toronto will be an extra 2 - 3 years rebuilding because of 1 first round givaway ? come on Beans...be realistic.
Burke has brought some execellent players into TO`s system...give them time, they have a new team. Toronto had 2 invitee`s to the world junior tryouts, with Mckegg pushing, they got cut but at least they were good enough to be asked.
The Marlies are fighting for 1st in their division !!! imagine the lowly Marlies. In just 2 short years Burke and Nonis have put an awful lot of talent into this team and it is showing.
The leafs had two awful, awful goalies when Burke arrived...now they have a constant in Giguere and 4 great prospects.
Give it TIME leaf fans...the future ain`t so bad.
The leafs will have 20 million available in cap space next season to tweak this team also, a couple of Versteegs here...Armstrongs there and you become competitive. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 18:57:41
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Guest 4093...what are you talking about ? players 23 - 24 in their prime ?? an hockey player is not in his prime until at least 26 - 28 years old.
kessel and Phaneuf plus many more leafs have 3 - 6 years to go yet before they hit prime. |
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Guest4093
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Posted - 12/15/2010 : 19:14:09
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Since when is there an age limit to when your in your prime? Do you watch hockey? Last time i checked... Crosby is 23. Ovechkin is 24. Perry is 25. Getzlaf is 25. Stamkos is 20. Backstrom is 23. Kopitar is 23. Richards is 25. Carter is 25.
Should i keep going? |
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 19:50:11
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| Good points I give Burke a C+ only due to the fact he has not been at it for long enough. IMO he does not have the assets in place to build in the current plan. I thought that LA was the youngest team? anyone know for sure? |
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MyTeamRules
Top Prospect
72 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 19:57:50
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Here is what Burke has to do
1. Fire the coach, he is good with offense which clearly the leafs don't have. (hire some proven AHL or WHL coach)
2. get a proven Veteran leader for the youngsters, with Phaneuf as your leader, the young stars won't develop as well.
If wins still don't come
3. Hire new goalie coach, and assistant coaches. If new coach sucks him too
4. Get a player like Lucic, get the coach to play him with Kadri and Kessel.
If you still are failing
5.Trade your star players for Draft picks
If you are still failing
6. Retire Burke you have enough money! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2010 : 23:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
But Beans the Oilers aren`t winning either, are they better right now than they were 2 years ago ? stats wise...no
But they are better because they`ve picked up younger, more talented players...So Have The Leafs....Edmonton may have 2 or 3 who are more skilled and thats it.
People give the Oilers a break when they lose....Oh they have a young team....guess what, the Leafs are younger, but when they lose...their bums, washed up, blow it up...etc...
I used the 2003 draft as an example of the kind if players a team can aquire without picking 2nd or 3rd overall...some pretty impressive players there.
How can you say the kessel deal Severly hampered TO`s rebuild ?O.K lets say kessel cancels out 1 first round pick, so you are saying Toronto will be an extra 2 - 3 years rebuilding because of 1 first round givaway ? come on Beans...be realistic.
Burke has brought some execellent players into TO`s system...give them time, they have a new team. Toronto had 2 invitee`s to the world junior tryouts, with Mckegg pushing, they got cut but at least they were good enough to be asked.
The Marlies are fighting for 1st in their division !!! imagine the lowly Marlies. In just 2 short years Burke and Nonis have put an awful lot of talent into this team and it is showing.
The leafs had two awful, awful goalies when Burke arrived...now they have a constant in Giguere and 4 great prospects.
Give it TIME leaf fans...the future ain`t so bad.
The leafs will have 20 million available in cap space next season to tweak this team also, a couple of Versteegs here...Armstrongs there and you become competitive.
Well Duke i was about to say where in the hell so the leafs get 20 million in cap space next year, but before jumping all over you i decided to check.
Lucky for me i did because you are right according to cap geek next season the Leafs will have 21 900 000$ in cap space to play with. This is including RFA's like Schen and Bozak and UFA's like Kaberle and Giguere.
Including RFA's the leafs have a total of 11 players coming off the books. (oh and if Finger ever comes back do minus 3.5 million from that 22 milion in cap space)
Now a well done overhaul of the Leafs roster could possibly fix this team they do have enough cap space barely, but it is enough for a good GM to make work. This may be the light at the end of the tunnel for the leaf's but they have to spend all their money and all in the right palces. Their are good players to be had in next years FA class.
So for Arguments sake lets say the Leafs successfully sign:
Richards at 7.5 mil
This gives them a true 2 way number 1 no question there.
But this leaves the Leafs with 14.5 million to work with for 10 other players and they still need at least one more true top six forward. Semin is an option but that is another 7 million against the cap and i do not think it would be wise of the leafs to try and fill out the other 9 players with only 7.5 in cap space, (don't forget Schenn is one of those 7 players)
Their are a variety of top six players available at a much more affordable price. Micheal Ryder for one, sur this guy gets a lot of hate but he is a proven 30 goal scorer and he is on pace to do it again this year. Justin Williams is another who could help fill out the Leafs top six. Fleichman could also be a very good option.
So lets say the leafs sign one of these players for 4 million per year, Now they have 10.5 million to fill out 9 roster spots and re sign a few RFA's none of which save Schenn and Mcarthur will be getting much of a raise.
that leaves the Leafs with a top six of say:
Richards, Kessel, Vestreeg, Kadri, Kulemin, Justin Williams? (i would try and dump Grabovski i guess because he can't play outside the top six) this would leave a very strong thrid line of Armstrong, Mccarthur, Bozak, which is a very good offensive third line and a few players who can even play second line if needed. So maybe the Leafs have a shot next year?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 05:48:27
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Thanks for the sanity, Pasty . . . I guess some people are just clouded by hatred for all things in Leaf-land. Nice to get an even perspective.
It is always the hardest to evaluate a big change when it is right in the middle . . . and this is the situation here in Toronto. To give Burke heck for not getting any action on acquiring a centre, and picking up a serviceable player like Bozak is silly . . . sure, he was always a huge longshot, and sure, he is not a first line center. But if there is a harder working manager trying to make deals, I don't know of one, and if there aren't deals, you cannot conjure them up out of thin air, people.
Again - not sure how ANYONE can say the Kessel deal is a losing deal for Toronto for CERTAIN. Beans, if you can see into the future so well, why did you bet on your Edmonton Oilers to finish above the Leafs last year? How do you really know Seguin will become a bonified first line player of better quality than Kessel - or at least compareable? Sure, I will agree with everyone that the odds of Seguin, the next first rounder and a second rounder as a whole being better than Kessel might be above 50% at this point . . . but it is not a given in any way.
And as pointed out here already, why do the Oilers get a break on public opinion "because they are so young" but the Leafs don't? It will still take time for the young team to gel, but progress is happening, I feel . . .
GOAL
Giggy has been very good, despite all the Leaf haters saying he was never that great, saying he was washed up, saying his MVP playoff season was a fluke. He has brought stability in net, and has been a perfect mentor for our goalie of the future - Gustavsson. The Monster looks like he actually will pan out, and he is getting better as the season progresses . . . he is beginning to grow on me.
Future looks good.
DEFENCE
Schenn has blossomed. Phaneuf is a solid presence - not a star by any stretch at this point, but a strong presence. Kaberle is our smart, experienced offensive guy. Gunnarson is very serviceable, and Aulie could be our stud defensive d-man of the future. Sure, Beauchemin has looked old/tired at times, and Komisarek has been awful . . . but it's a work in progress.
Future looks good.
FORWARDS
MacArthur has been a fantastic surprise. Kessel, despite some troubles this season, still looks like the perrenial 30 goal guy, with a good chance at 40+ with better linemates. Grabovski seems to be really waking up, and despite my feelings on him has played very well as a second line center. Versteeg is still adjusting to his place on the team, but again is starting to pick it up. Kulemin has a bright future, and I personally think Kadri does as well.
For the 3rd and 4th lines, Armstrong has been amazing, and I can really live with Orr being the tough guy, as he can play. Sjostrom will be an NHLer, how good he will get, I don't know though.
Yeah, we need a first line center, and we are a bit thin on snipers / overall depth for the first two lines . . . but in a building process, there will be glaring weaknesses, and this one is the Leafs'. It's a start.
Future looks a bit thin, and this is where we need to acquire talent through trades/signings/drafting.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4093
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Posted - 12/16/2010 : 05:48:37
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Another point i'd like to make about the Leafs.. Ron Wilson spent his time in San Jose with true all around talent- a great team.
Now.. He couldn't coach them to the stanley cup finals so they booted him because they were better than him soooooo...
The struggling Toronto Maple Leafs- Who didn't have near the talent as San Jose- pick up Ron Wilson to lead there team? How does that make sense? expecting a guy who couldn't get it done with San Jose to do it in Toronto? How? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 08:29:20
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Slozo....
Here's what i see (to reply to a couple of your points)....
1. The Kessel deal. You ask "how ANYONE can say the Kessel deal is a losing deal for Toronto for CERTAIN.". Obviously, we can't, "for CERTAIN", but it's of the majority opinion that they will lose this deal. By how much, who knows? And, perhaps they don't. If Seguin isn't as good or better than Kessel a few years from now and they don't get value out of the other pick, TO could in fact win this trade. However, i still say that most GM's would take the Bruins side of this trade if given the choice AND i firmly believe so too would Burke if given the choice now. I do agree, Burke, with the changes he made, had no idea just how bad his team would perform last year. I've said it many times here, he prob figured he'd be giving up a 10th-12th overall and a 12th-15th (this years) as he expected his team to be much better by now!
2. To your question..."why do the Oilers get a break on public opinion "because they are so young" but the Leafs don't?", i'm guessing it's because it's much easier to see the potential in Hall, Paarjarvi and Eberle than it is Kadri, Kulemin, Aulie, etc. The Oilers "kids" have been front and center the past few WJC's and in Junior hockey in general. There's simply been far more hype to them and they've all become household names much quicker. Yes, the Leafs are young, but it's what these kids have accomplished and where we've seen them. Hall was a big time player for the WJ's last year, Kadri didn't make it. It's that sort of thing that makes most feel the Oilers future is brighter right now and probably why they get these "breaks on public opinion".
IMO, Burke takes a lot of heat for the fact that he's failed to get ANYTHING for Kaberle and the longer this goes on, the less likely he will get much in return due to Kaberle's UFA status upcoming. He could have and prob should have been swapped for another offensive player to play with Kessel.
Pasty has pointed out some interesting points about how the Leafs can continue to rebuild with upcoming cap space, but it goes to show you how quickly space gets filled when talking about guys in the 7 million + range! The mere fact that Kaberle looks to bring little in return looks different to Leaf fans than it does to the rest of us. To Leaf fans it prob looks like 4mil off the books. To the rest of us, or, me at least, it looks like a valuable asset going to waste on a team that isn't in the mix this year and certainly wasn't last year! |
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Guest1747
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Posted - 12/16/2010 : 08:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Slozo....
Here's what i see (to reply to a couple of your points)....
1. The Kessel deal. You ask "how ANYONE can say the Kessel deal is a losing deal for Toronto for CERTAIN.". Obviously, we can't, "for CERTAIN", but it's of the majority opinion that they will lose this deal. By how much, who knows? And, perhaps they don't. If Seguin isn't as good or better than Kessel a few years from now and they don't get value out of the other pick, TO could in fact win this trade. However, i still say that most GM's would take the Bruins side of this trade if given the choice AND i firmly believe so too would Burke if given the choice now. I do agree, Burke, with the changes he made, had no idea just how bad his team would perform last year. I've said it many times here, he prob figured he'd be giving up a 10th-12th overall and a 12th-15th (this years) as he expected his team to be much better by now!
2. To your question..."why do the Oilers get a break on public opinion "because they are so young" but the Leafs don't?", i'm guessing it's because it's much easier to see the potential in Hall, Paarjarvi and Eberle than it is Kadri, Kulemin, Aulie, etc. The Oilers "kids" have been front and center the past few WJC's and in Junior hockey in general. There's simply been far more hype to them and they've all become household names much quicker. Yes, the Leafs are young, but it's what these kids have accomplished and where we've seen them. Hall was a big time player for the WJ's last year, Kadri didn't make it. It's that sort of thing that makes most feel the Oilers future is brighter right now and probably why they get these "breaks on public opinion".
IMO, Burke takes a lot of heat for the fact that he's failed to get ANYTHING for Kaberle and the longer this goes on, the less likely he will get much in return due to Kaberle's UFA status upcoming. He could have and prob should have been swapped for another offensive player to play with Kessel.
Pasty has pointed out some interesting points about how the Leafs can continue to rebuild with upcoming cap space, but it goes to show you how quickly space gets filled when talking about guys in the 7 million + range! The mere fact that Kaberle looks to bring little in return looks different to Leaf fans than it does to the rest of us. To Leaf fans it prob looks like 4mil off the books. To the rest of us, or, me at least, it looks like a valuable asset going to waste on a team that isn't in the mix this year and certainly wasn't last year!
Kadri did play for the world juniors- he just didn't produce and took stupid penalties. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 09:05:18
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Guest 4093 you forget when Wilson took a lifeless Washington Capitals team to the finals? And as for his time in SJ i do not recall Todd Mclennan doing much better their right now. O forgive me they made it a little farther in the playoffs still overall insignificant.
Beans and I mentioned yesterday about bringing Ken Hitchcock into Washington but in actuality it would not be unreasonable to see the leafs pursue him as he is a great defensive minded coach who would surely strengthen their special teams which is truely their achilles heel.
Slozo & Patsy pretty much summed everything else up. Just one slight contradiction. I would pursue Parise as oppose to Richards with maybe an additional million dollar cap hit as he is offensively more talented and defensively more responsibel plus Richards is approaching the later yrs where as Parise is coming into his prime and he and kessel have played together before.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 09:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest1747
Kadri did play for the world juniors- he just didn't produce and took stupid penalties.
Ah yes, my mistake  . If i recall correctly, he actually did put up a few points even but as you said, took some bad penalties,etc. Either way, my point was, Hall has always been more noticable, more hyped, etc. and that's prob why most fans see a brighter future in Edm than they do TO! |
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top cheese
Top Prospect
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 10:28:53
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| interesting thought...... if the leafs never did the kessel trade, maybe they would have ended up dead last. I'm sure everyone can agree that kessel had a big help in the few wins they had last year. So maybe we shouldn't be comparing kessel to seguin but kessel to hall. |
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top cheese
Top Prospect
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 10:30:05
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| interesting thought...... if the leafs never did the kessel trade, maybe they would have ended up dead last. I'm sure everyone can agree that kessel had a big help in the few wins they had last year. So maybe we shouldn't be comparing kessel to seguin but kessel to hall. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 11:44:51
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quote:
Slozo & Patsy pretty much summed everything else up. Just one slight contradiction. I would pursue Parise as oppose to Richards with maybe an additional million dollar cap hit as he is offensively more talented and defensively more responsibel plus Richards is approaching the later yrs where as Parise is coming into his prime and he and kessel have played together before.
Richards is by far the easier of the two to puruse.
I don't think the Leafs can make a serious run for Parise IMO. They cannot give him an offer sheet - despite their cap space, they don't have the requisite picks to offer back to NJ for the 7M/year offer that they'd likely want to forward. In the trade bucket, they have next to nothing to offer to NJ for a player of Parise's calibre. The only offer I could see making sense would be Kadri + Aulie + something else, and I don't see Burke making that deal. Other teams have more to offer.
Richards on the other hand just needs money thrown at him - which TOR has plenty of. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 13:16:37
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<offtopic>
speaking of offer sheets and compensatory draft picks, where would EDM and BUF be now if BUF had walked away from the Vanek offer sheet? If BUF had walked away, they would have gotten 4 first round draft picks from EDM as compensation - which work out to be Eberle, MPS, and Hall, plus next year's pick as well.
Assuming that EDM didn't see much improvement from the addition of Vanek that is...
We'd be looking at 2 very different teams right now.
</offtopic> |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 14:00:01
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Guest 4093..it is a proven fact, publicized over the years that ALL PROFESSIONAL athletes, ( not just hockey players ) reach their PRIME at the age of 26 - 27 years old.
Yes, i do watch hockey...do you watch sports ??
Every player you listed are great players guest...guess what...they will be better at age 26, this is proven over time.... over and over again.
Prime doesn`t mean when they can skate, run, the fastest or jump the highest. Prime age is when it all comes together as a more complete player. Strength, speed, smarts, defensive part of your game learned,responsibility, maturity, a better team-mate..etc....list goes on and on.
Did you notice Crosby is scoring more goals this year ? ( he is not over-passing ) Ovie`s not jumping like a kid, his assists are higher than his goals, ( he is actually passing the puck, not so selfish )....they my friend are BECOMING more complete, give them 2 - 3 more years and they will be real leaders. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 14:57:30
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Hey Duke, no one in Edmonton said they were making the playoffs last season or this season did they?? Edmonton also started their rebuild at the trade deadline last season. Burke started his 6 months earlier. Who is better off today?? It's a tie. They are separated by just 1 points in the standings. Who is better off tomorrow?? I don't know. You tell me. The Oilers have suited up 7 rookies that I can count(Hall, Eberle, Paajarvii, Peckham, Belle, Omarra, and Omark). How many for the Leafs??? Kadri and Aulie is all I can see.
Look 2 years ago and the Oilers are no better. Are the trending better than last season?? Yep. The Oilers have 27 pts in 30 games, trending to 74 points for the season. That would be an improvement of 12 pts over last year. TO on the other hand is has 28 pts in 30 games, trending to 76-77 points. A killer 2-3 points improvement over last season.
So, Edmonton improves by 12 points over last year, will keep their lotto pick, and are doing this with 5-7 rookies in the line up. Hmmm, I wonder who is better off???
To Slozo, Duke, and anyone else to believe that popular opinion is based on Leaf hatred. Simply put, not true. Frankly, I feel a ton of sympathy for the Leafs and their fans. They are bad, they are not getting better, and they can't see it.
Edmonton doesn't get breaks when they lose. They are expected to lose. And people also see significantly more potential in Edmonton. The #1 draft pick overall hast just 2 fewer goals than the established sniper in TO. That one that was traded for 2-1st round picks.
Yep, Burke should be given GM of the year, that's for sure. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/16/2010 15:05:19 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 15:01:48
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That is an interesting point, TopCheese, and when imagining what could have been, yeah - Toronto surely would have finished dead last without Kessel.
I'd still take Kessel over Hall at this point. Again, nothing wrong with great promise, and Hall does have a lot of it . . . but Kessel is a proven scorer, versus a potentially great scorer. Big difference.
Alex: good points on the greater expectations and promise of Hall, Eberle and the young guns. You're right of course - they have more highly rated young guys/prospects than the Leafs, for sure.
But in terms of marginally established, "older" young guns that I can be sure are going to be pretty solid players - Schenn, Kulemin, Gustavsson, even Kessel could be thrown in there - the Leafs are ahead of the Oil. No, except for Kessel, they don't seem to have as high a ceiling as the Oilers crew . . . but again, they have pretty much already proven themselves to be NHLers of some worth.
And lastly, to further compare the Oilers and Leafs as young, "building" teams: a lot has been said about how the Oilers are doing it right, so much better than the Leafs. And yet for me, building from the net out (sort of started with defence first) makes way more sense in building long term greatness, frankly. And defence takes a bit longer to develop, nurture and gel as a team . . . and so far, I really like the way our young defence is looking for the future, even with the crappy play of Komisarek.
Offence is much easier to add to the mix in my mind, than defence, from outside sources, and I can take the at time anemic scoring for now with a pretty bright future on D and in goal.
Lastly - Parise over B.Richards? Probably a moot point, but point taken . . . as it looks right now though, Dallas is actively shopping Richards, and NJ hasn't made a sound about moving Parise (and obviously he is isn't going anywhere while hurt).
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 15:17:27
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Slozo, you are correct in various points. Not saying anything is wrong with building from the net out, however when the talent available is front end talent, that is the right pick. The Oilers are clearly building from the front back. Time will tell to see who is correct. Both systems will work in the right circumstance, but you are right in that defensemen develop slower than forwards.
I also think you are discrediting the talent the Oilers have in that mid-aged players. Hemsky, Horcoff, Penner, Whitney, Foster, Smid. All have talent and skill in their position. Khabibulin is as good a keeper as Giguere and about the same age. But the one of those keepers is signed past this season.
Comparing the Leafs to the Oilers today is reasonable. However, as you said, the Oilers have more talent in their prospects.
That being said, I have gotta say there are some pieces to the Leafs like. Schenn is a stud shutdown guy. He really is great and will get better. Kulemin, Grabovski, and Kessel are also strong and I still like Versteeg. I am not sold on most any other Leafs. Aulie is still young and unproven. Kadri the same. As far as Phaneuf, I take Whitney any day. Beauchemin and Schenn are the only pieces of that defense I would say I would like better than what Edmonton has in Gilbert and Peckham. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 16:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
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I'd still take Kessel over Hall at this point. Again, nothing wrong with great promise, and Hall does have a lot of it . . . but Kessel is a proven scorer, versus a potentially great scorer.
I don't think there is a single GM in the history of the NHL that could possibly agree with you! Really? right now Taylor Hall is as good a player on a equally bad team period and Hall is 18 that means next year and the year after his cap hit is like 800 000$ vs 5.2 million, Say all you want about proven and not proven Taylor Hall is doing better and adjusting better than Steven Stamkos did in his Rookie year. Sure its a gamble Kessel for Hall but god damn the upside is to great and well the odds that their is a downside are almost non existant ......
I will propse a wager Slozo i am willing to bet whatever you want that Taylor Hall scores 40 goals in the NHL before Phil Kessel does, as soon as next year!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 21:04:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
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I'd still take Kessel over Hall at this point. Again, nothing wrong with great promise, and Hall does have a lot of it . . . but Kessel is a proven scorer, versus a potentially great scorer.
I don't think there is a single GM in the history of the NHL that could possibly agree with you! Really? right now Taylor Hall is as good a player on a equally bad team period and Hall is 18 that means next year and the year after his cap hit is like 800 000$ vs 5.2 million, Say all you want about proven and not proven Taylor Hall is doing better and adjusting better than Steven Stamkos did in his Rookie year. Sure its a gamble Kessel for Hall but god damn the upside is to great and well the odds that their is a downside are almost non existant ......
I will propse a wager Slozo i am willing to bet whatever you want that Taylor Hall scores 40 goals in the NHL before Phil Kessel does, as soon as next year!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
As much of a gambling man I am, that might be the closest bet I have read on here. Hall has serious skills. Speed and strength that Etown has not seen since the likes of Petr Klima. I think much like us out West do not see a ton of Stamkos and the likes, the East does not see Hall. By the time the Oilers get going, many in the east are hitting their pillows.
Hall will be a 40 goal guy. There is not doubt in my mind. Not only does the guy have the one ice skils, but he is uber competative. Kessel has those chops too, but Kessel does not have Hemsky, Eberele, Paajarvi, and the likes to support him.
I think Kessel = Hall. I think in the long run, Hall will outshine.
But I will also admit, there is some Orange and Blue tint to my glasses.  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 21:31:59
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Pasty i agree Hall will be great. I watched him for a full game tue. night vs the leafs and he is going to be something else, no doubt about it, slam dunk here.
As for comparing salaries, well Hall will surely surpass kessel in a couple more years, his time will come when he be a bigger cap hit.. Question is whats the Oilers going to do when all these young players want between 5 - 7 million dollars each ?? Chicago Blackhawks all over again ?
Its unfair to compare Halls and Stamkos rookie starts. Hall`s playing 1st line and powerplay with plenty of minutes....Remember Barry Melrose didn`t want and didn`t play Stamkos at all in his first 15 - 20 games, virtually no ice time at all
....then Melrose got fired |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 22:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Pasty i agree Hall will be great. I watched him for a full game tue. night vs the leafs and he is going to be something else, no doubt about it, slam dunk here.
As for comparing salaries, well Hall will surely surpass kessel in a couple more years, his time will come when he be a bigger cap hit.. Question is whats the Oilers going to do when all these young players want between 5 - 7 million dollars each ?? Chicago Blackhawks all over again ?
Its unfair to compare Halls and Stamkos rookie starts. Hall`s playing 1st line and powerplay with plenty of minutes....Remember Barry Melrose didn`t want and didn`t play Stamkos at all in his first 15 - 20 games, virtually no ice time at all
....then Melrose got fired
hopfully for the Oilers they can do something like the Carter Richards or Geztlaf Perry and Ryan deals where they take a discount to stick together .. somwhere in the 5.5 million range...
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Guest7309
( )
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Posted - 12/16/2010 : 23:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
But Beans the Oilers aren`t winning either, are they better right now than they were 2 years ago ? stats wise...no
But they are better because they`ve picked up younger, more talented players...So Have The Leafs....Edmonton may have 2 or 3 who are more skilled and thats it.
People give the Oilers a break when they lose....Oh they have a young team....guess what, the Leafs are younger, but when they lose...their bums, washed up, blow it up...etc...
I used the 2003 draft as an example of the kind if players a team can aquire without picking 2nd or 3rd overall...some pretty impressive players there.
How can you say the kessel deal Severly hampered TO`s rebuild ?O.K lets say kessel cancels out 1 first round pick, so you are saying Toronto will be an extra 2 - 3 years rebuilding because of 1 first round givaway ? come on Beans...be realistic.
Burke has brought some execellent players into TO`s system...give them time, they have a new team. Toronto had 2 invitee`s to the world junior tryouts, with Mckegg pushing, they got cut but at least they were good enough to be asked.
The Marlies are fighting for 1st in their division !!! imagine the lowly Marlies. In just 2 short years Burke and Nonis have put an awful lot of talent into this team and it is showing.
The leafs had two awful, awful goalies when Burke arrived...now they have a constant in Giguere and 4 great prospects.
Give it TIME leaf fans...the future ain`t so bad.
The leafs will have 20 million available in cap space next season to tweak this team also, a couple of Versteegs here...Armstrongs there and you become competitive.
While I agree with you on the point that we have to give our Leafs time, I'm not quite sure if you understand the mechanics of the draft. We gave away our first round draft pick. That means we don't pick in the first round. It's not a question of picking second or third overall, because the earliest pick we can have is 31st. I'm not saying it's impossible to find good players after the first round, you've proved that point well enough with your list, but it still severely inhibits our ability to build through the draft. |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2010 : 23:34:21
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You really can't say the Kessel deal was a good one. Regardless of how good Kessel is, a team in full rebuild mode should never give up two years worth of first-round picks. I can see why Burke did it, but it was always a gamble. NOBODY on the Leafs has more than about two years with the team save Kaberle. It doesn't matter how good the players Burke thought he was getting were, it is impossible to know how players are going to gel before you get them on the same team. Even if he thought he had a playoff team last year (and I don't blame him, I thought he did too) it was a bad idea to bet on all the parts clicking right away.
Anyway, done is done, and I get the impression that Burke isn't 100% sure where to go from here. His stated timeline for a rebuild is running out, and it's clear that while his young new team has far more upside than the moribund team he blew out, the Leafs still won't be a contender any time soon.
At the moment I honestly can't say what the plan should be either, beyond chasing Brad Richards and replacing Ron Wilson. Wilson was hired to kick a bunch of under-performing veterans in the ass, but I don't think he's the right kind of coach for a young team. Personally I would re-sign Kaberle, provided he doesn't want insane money. He's worth more to the team than what they could get for him on the trade market. After that, where do you go? I suspect it's a matter of just developing the talent they have and holding out until they start getting high draft picks again. It hard to resist the absurd pressure from fans in this city, but I really hope Burke is patient, instead of trying to trade away any prospects for big names to keep the rabid fanbase from his throat.
Saying he had a playoff team was probably the dumbest thing Burke could have done.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Guest9052
( )
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Posted - 12/17/2010 : 07:06:27
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Firstly, Wilson isn't going anywhere, as him and Burke are tight. I know he's not the best coach in the league, but it's not my decision. I just wish he'd stop juggling the lines. How are you supposed to develop a consciousness of where your line mates are if you're always playing with different lines.
Secondly, one of the MAJOR reasons we are so inconsistent this yr is many of our key players have had injuries. For example: Phaneuf (our friggin' CAPTAIN) has missed more games than he's played. Armstrong was out for 3 or 4 weeks, Brown (our best shot blocker) is out now with a broken finger. Giggy ha had Groin pulls etc. These are the kind of guys you depend on for a win.
Thirdly, I was never Grabovski's biggest fan, but the synergy with Kulemin and McArthur is unmatched on the leafs in the last decade. It would be silly to break them up. Schenn is definitely a top 4 Dman. Arguably the best on our team. And for $4.25M nobody in the league moves the puck better than Kaberle. I really like the work ethic of Bozak, but we obviously need a first line Centreman to be playoff contenders.
Finally, I believe the reason the Oilers get a break for being young and the Leafs don't is because Toronto has the Worst media in the NHL. "you didn't score today, thus you are in a slump"
So in conclusion, the Leafs don't need to make a lot of changes to their current roster, just one or two Really good ones.
Also, it couldn't hurt to hit the DAMN net rather than shooting it wide ALL THE TIME!!
Peace
T-RAV
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LEAFS. Whats the plan in toronto.. 
