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Guest1747
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 Posted - 12/17/2010 : 08:25:54
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Wilson is a bum along with his boyfriend Burke. Edmonton will be alot better in the long run as the people who know what there talking about will say. GM's would be 100% no second guessing about taking Hall over kessel. That's silly to say otherwise. Hall has had as good as a rookie season as you'll get with the type of team Edmonton has going. Young and building, Hall and Eberle are turning out quite nicely.
There's a good chance Hall will be better than Kessel and i disagree that Hall will score 40 before Kessel, however. Hall will have more goals in his career than Kessel. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2010 : 08:33:39
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If Kessel scores 40 before Hall, it means that in the next year or so, that TO has finally aquired someone to play alongside him! No way Kessel gets to 40 with the scrubs he's been with this year!
Of course, one of their guys (say Kadri?) could develop the chemistry needed though he's not known as a playmaker is he? |
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Guest8605
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Posted - 12/17/2010 : 12:19:28
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There are 2 reasons why the oliers get a break for being young and the leafs don't:
1) The young oliers have significantly more upside than the young leafs. Eberle, Paajarvi and Hall are way better prospects than Kadri, Bozak or any other leaf prospect (Kulemin is a pretty good player though). Just because they're both young doesn't make them equal.
2) The oilers don't claim they have a playoff team before the season starts. Why would a gm do that? Why raise the expectations for a team that is probably bad and at best, if they all overachieve, a boderline playoff team. Stupid move IMO. Why not lower expectations and hope you exceed them.
The reason the Kessel trade is horrible is that even if Kessel is a good player and a proven 30 goal scorer, he didn't make the team any better. They were still a 29th place team last year and well on their way to something similar this year. A better move would have been to hold on to the picks while your team reloads, THEN go out and sign/trade for an RFA. I understand that Burke didn't think his team was going to be bad last year. IT IS HIS JOB TO PROPERLY EVALUATE HOW GOOD HIS TEAM IS! He came in talking about getting rid of blue and white disease but instead he caught it and thought all of his players were better than they actually are. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2010 : 13:17:09
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I`m watching the leafs all the time ( via center ice ) and some tinkering would change them bigtime.
Leafs need 2 True center-iceman. 1 with major skill and talent.
1 more Defensive - Defenseman actually worth 4.5 million per...Komasarik has to go, he is horrible.
J.Mitchell and T.Brent have to go...neither is capable of playing NHL hockey.
Kadri needs a full season in the AHL to mature and strengthen. I thought personally has a fan may have been ready...he is not.
These few moves will make the Leafs ( in my opinion ) a much more complete hockey team. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2010 : 13:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I`m watching the leafs all the time ( via center ice ) and some tinkering would change them bigtime.
Leafs need 2 True center-iceman. 1 with major skill and talent.
1 more Defensive - Defenseman actually worth 4.5 million per...Komasarik has to go, he is horrible.
J.Mitchell and T.Brent have to go...neither is capable of playing NHL hockey.
Kadri needs a full season in the AHL to mature and strengthen. I thought personally has a fan may have been ready...he is not.
These few moves will make the Leafs ( in my opinion ) a much more complete hockey team.
100% complete agree. These 7 players(#1 and #2 centre, #3 defensemen, #2 defense as Kaberle is gone this after this season, 2/3rds of the 3rd line, and a #1 goalie as Giguere is not signed through this year) currently do not play for the Leafs or are in their system.
That's 7 players. 1/3 of the entire hockey team are need and that is just to compete!! They would definitely be a playoff team at that point, but that does not mean they are a Cup contender by any stretch of the word.
So Burke needs 1/3 of a team to be where he figured he was in the summer of 2009 when he made the deal for Kessel. The Leafs had the same needs at that point.
What is the plan again??? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/17/2010 14:30:45 |
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Guest2943
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Posted - 12/17/2010 : 14:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8605
There are 2 reasons why the oliers get a break for being young and the leafs don't:
1) The young oliers have significantly more upside than the young leafs. Eberle, Paajarvi and Hall are way better prospects than Kadri, Bozak or any other leaf prospect (Kulemin is a pretty good player though). Just because they're both young doesn't make them equal.
2) The oilers don't claim they have a playoff team before the season starts. Why would a gm do that? Why raise the expectations for a team that is probably bad and at best, if they all overachieve, a boderline playoff team. Stupid move IMO. Why not lower expectations and hope you exceed them.
The reason the Kessel trade is horrible is that even if Kessel is a good player and a proven 30 goal scorer, he didn't make the team any better. They were still a 29th place team last year and well on their way to something similar this year. A better move would have been to hold on to the picks while your team reloads, THEN go out and sign/trade for an RFA. I understand that Burke didn't think his team was going to be bad last year. IT IS HIS JOB TO PROPERLY EVALUATE HOW GOOD HIS TEAM IS! He came in talking about getting rid of blue and white disease but instead he caught it and thought all of his players were better than they actually are.
Totally agree with your points. Burke cannot properly evaluate his team and has clearly got Blue tinted glasses, just like the fan base. I give him props for Versteeg, Phaneuf, Kessel and the fact he hasn't succumbed to pressure to trade Kaberle. He got what he wanted with Giggy which was a chance to compete every night and a true teacher for the Monster. But he has got to disconnect himself from Wilson who clearly cannot work with the pieces given to him. Cut Wilson loose or he'll get painted with the same brush, not being able to work with the pieces given. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2010 : 14:08:13
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2010 : 16:54:41
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Beans - I already told you the plan, and we are halfway through, with about a third of the players to go.
Isn't that ahead of schedule?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest0013
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Posted - 12/18/2010 : 06:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans - I already told you the plan, and we are halfway through, with about a third of the players to go.
Isn't that ahead of schedule?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Isn't Wilson the one that had ALL the pieces in San Jose?
And what happened then.... nothing
So putting together the remaining parts for the Leafs MUST include hiring a competant coach that knows what to do with these parts.
Until then, Wilson will continue to make Burke look worse than he is, but as long as the leaf fans are not booing EVERY night, and as long as they keep going to the games, who cares? The money's coming in and the business is healthy... that's what counts with the brass.... WINNING in not THE priority. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 09:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans - I already told you the plan, and we are halfway through, with about a third of the players to go.
Isn't that ahead of schedule?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
No, it's absolutely not ahead of schedule. Remember when Burke made the Kessel deal?? His rationale was that his team was a playoff team and Kessel would make them better at that time. Summer of 09.
Adding the 7 players I mentioned puts the team where Burke figured they were 18 months ago. All this pieces will not be put into place until this summer(11), meaning the plan is 2 years behind. Not ahead at all.
This team was supposed to be a play off team 2 years ago and right now gearing up for a Cup run next season. This team is still not trending to be a playoff team next season without a lot of help.
As it seems the Oilers are the comparative team in this thread, here is a great comparison. The Oilers blew up their squad at the trade deadline last year meaning they are less than 1 year into their planned rebuild. They are now trending to be 12 pts better than last year, doing it with 5-7 rookies in the line up each night. Burke came into TO and publically stated his master plan. Remember the speach?? "Proper levels of pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence." He started in Nov of 08-2 years ago. The Leafs are maybe a more exciting team to watch on the ice but they are not any better than before he arrived. They went from 36 wins, to 34, to 30 last year and from 83, to 81, to 74 points. They are trending virtually the same as last year .
How is that ahead of plan??? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/18/2010 09:14:14 |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 10:11:00
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Beans Burke has only been in Toronto 2 years ( i think roughly ), so how could he say they were a playoff team 2 years ago when that is when he arrived there ?
I know Burke has said and done some things that he would indeed retract if he had his time back....but thats his personality, you are what you are. At least i think he is smart and has a very good hockey man in Nonis at his side. People just keep bringing up the kessel trade..ok maybe he made 1 mistake...what about all the good things he has done ??
I know record wise the leafs seem like they have not improved, but i think as soon as they aquire even 1 good center they will start to get on track some-what. I couldn`t stand to watch the leafs 2 years ago, like watching paint dry, at least they are exciting now and do have bursts of execellence. They do have some players now who you can see blossoming and some hope is there....before ( 2 years ago ) there was nothing.
>> The leafs do have an exciting team to watch, unlike before.
>> Burke rid the leafs of Blakes contract and brought in a respectable winning goalie.
>> People were blown away on the Phaneuf deal ( like him or hate him ), ridding the leafs of career losers in the process. I think Stagen has 1 goal in his last 43 games has a Flame...brutal.
>> The leafs have 4 execellent prospect goalies...when Burke arrived they had J.Pogge
>> The Marlies were in last place again ( career losers ) since Burkes arrival they are now fighting for 1st in their division.
>> The leafs now have execellent prospects in their system, just a few off the top of my head...Kadri, Aulie, D`amigo, Blacker, Ross, McKegg, Mueller, Irwin, Holzer, Caputi, Hanson......all these guys have potential....what was there before ??.. J. Tlusty ??
>> Burke has put the leafs into a position ( as of right now ) where next season they will have approx. 21 million available in cap.
Lets look at the leafs line-up 2 years ago compared to now...viewing Sundin as a wash because he wouldn`t waive and help the team who paid him hump-teen million.
Tlusty Sundin Antropuv
Blake Steen Kulemin
Deveraux Stagen Mayers
Tucker Bell Ponkarovsky
Just imagine they were that bad with NO prospects...SCARY, what an imposing line -up !!!! i bet teams were shaking in their boots when entering the ice surface at Toronto  what a bunch of clowns.
Have the leafs improved ? OF COURSE they have, maybe not in the win column yet...that will come in time. How the hell can you not improve looking at this lineup with no future in any of them aside from Kulemin ?? |
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doublechamp7
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
278 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 10:20:30
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They definetly have improved, it will just take time for it to show up in the standings.
My avatar is a rodent. |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2010 : 13:05:51
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The new Leafs team certainly has more in the way of a future than the old one did a few years ago. That said, while I agree with the Duke that there are better prospects in the system, more of an upside to the current roster, and the Leafs are a more entertaining club to watch, they still don't even have the base to become cup contender material, nowhere close.
Think about Pittsburg and Chicago, two recent examples of a successful team rebuild leading to a Stanley Cup: Does this Leaf team have anywhere near the young talent in their system that either of those clubs had? Not. Even. Close. Don't get me wrong, I think, all things considered, Fletcher and then Burke have done a decent job of getting rid of the rotten old team they inhereted, but they have not created the foundation for a dynasty by any means.
What the Leafs now have are a bunch of B grade prospects, a decent young core which *may* end up being pretty good if they all reach their maximum potential and develop a solid team game, and about 20 million dollars in cap space. Once you consider the cost of re-signings, that leaves enough money for one top-tier player and maybe another solid 2nd liner.
I don't think its enough. If all that potential pans out, this becomes maybe a 2nd round playoff team in a couple years, but I still dont think this is the foundation for a cup contender. I've said before that I probably would have made the same mistake on the Kessel deal, but it really did put the screws to building a winner in Toronto any time soon.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 08:52:01
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Hey Duke, now it's a centre that will solve the Leafs problems. At the start of the season, they would be better with Giguere and Phaneuf becuase that was all their problems last year. The, Burke was going to solve the problems as JFJ and CFletcher were the issues prior to that.
When is it going to end???
Burke was the one who made the Kessel deal under the assumption they were a playoff team. You(as well as other) have defended the deal as such. I am not making anything up. The Leafs, based on the rating of their GM, were a playoff bound team going into the '09 season. We are nearly 1/2 way through the '10 season and the Leafs are still a lottery team. A far cry from the playoffs.
Hey, and I can't disagree with a single thing that you said about where the Leafs were 2 years ago. No doubt that they are significantly better in virtually every area of the ice.
However, the improvement on the ice and in the standings is hard to see from the outside. This team has hit the plateau. There is nothing coming down the pipe. No young and talented prospects. Sure, there is some change in the Free Agent market and many in Leafland are talking about Brad Richards. Well, what happens if he goes somewhere else?? Is a guy like Alexander Semin going to stay in Washington or go somewhere else?? Will Burke sign him?? Maybe Parise(who is another RFA meaning compensation if an offer sheet is involved).
Literally, the fate of the Leafs lies in a small handful of players that are not sure things to play for the Leafs. Not only that, the #1 centre is one of 6-7 players discussed just to put the Leafs in the playoffs.
Yep, Burke makes a deal for Kessel assuming he had a play off team and it's going to take 2 years and a lot of luck just to be a playoff team.
People do continue to look at the one mistake(the big one, not his only one) that Burke has made because it was a huge, disgusting, massive mistake that the Leafs will take years to recovery from. Trust me, being a fan of the Oilers and watching the comedy of errors that began with the Pronger deal and turned into a tailspin to the bottom of the standings. That one deal put the Oilers where they are today.
That one deal will put the Leafs out of the playoffs for this year, more than likely next year, and who know how much longer after that.
So, sure. Keep that fire burning. I truly wish the Leafs luck as they need it desparately. As RC nailed pretty much dead on, this team is at least 2 years from even winning a single playoff series.
I bet right now the Oilers are more successful (both in the standings and in the playoffs) in 2012. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 10:34:27
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Yes Beans Toronto seems to be a team right now with no indentity and they don`t know where to turn or who to turn to. Burke seems to be a very disappointed man who is so frustrated in the play of some of his more veteran players he has brought in.
8 losses in a row to Vancouver, they may have a good hockey team now but they haven`t exactly always been the Soviet`s Red Army, something has been rotten in leaf land for a long time.
Toronto never seems to do anything right, even Jim Hughson said last night they deserved a much better faith, especially after the first period, BUT it never seems to work out for them.
I know picking out little things may seem petty but last night Toronto kept Vancouver without a shot on goal ( at one stretch in the 1st period ) for over 9 mins....it was 0 - 0.....guess what Ron Wilson did at that very point in the game, ( true, not making this up ) the brain - child changed up the line combinations ???? What kind of a total MORON does this ??
Your team may have just played the most solid 10 minutes of hockey for the entire season, all lines are clicking, total defense is employed with some scoring chances to boot....your coach decides....I`m going to change up the line combinations, i don`t know how this man keeps his job....along with these stupid, dumb ideas he has...he has a mouth like Don King !!!
Graboski...like him or hate him, he is by far TO`s best center right now, How come he isn`t 1st line ? why isn`t kessel playing with him ? along with Kulemin ?....Maybe Wilson thinks Bozak is much better than Graboski...this wouldn`t shock me at all  |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 12:04:13
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quote:
Toronto never seems to do anything right, even Jim Hughson said last night they deserved a much better faith, especially after the first period, BUT it never seems to work out for them.
I know picking out little things may seem petty but last night Toronto kept Vancouver without a shot on goal ( at one stretch in the 1st period ) for over 9 mins....it was 0 - 0.....guess what Ron Wilson did at that very point in the game, ( true, not making this up ) the brain - child changed up the line combinations ???? What kind of a total MORON does this ??
Your team may have just played the most solid 10 minutes of hockey for the entire season, all lines are clicking, total defense is employed with some scoring chances to boot....your coach decides....I`m going to change up the line combinations, i don`t know how this man keeps his job....along with these stupid, dumb ideas he has...he has a mouth like Don King !!!
I think you mean they deserved a much better FATE, not faith. And they did, they played a very good first period last night. But that is really it. They got a 5-on-3, didn't score and Versteeg got absolutely robbed by Luongo. Then Kessel takes a hard hit from someone (don't remember who), and seems to go into hiding for the rest of the night. Morale blown, only good Leaf taken out of the game - it was only a matter of time after that.
The Canucks were held shotless for 9 or whatever minutes, but honestly, TOR wasn't exactly burning up the ice in that time - so why not change the lines? TOR needs to score, not hold Vancouver to no shots.
You're not going to win a game against a team like Vancouver with 1 period of good play. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 12/19/2010 12:05:00 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 12:24:36
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Hey Duke, as much as I agree that Wilson is not the right coach for the team, it does not mean they would be significantly better under a different coach. Again, much like the Oilers under MacTavish, they were no better (in fact worse in many ways) under Pat Quinn.
Coaching might be part of it, but it still does not at the 1/3 of a team worth of talent they need to be competative and legitimately, 12 players they need to be a contender.
They just simply are not good enough. |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 14:27:03
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Last night's game is proof that the team desperately needs a bit more firepower, and probably a new coach as well.
Vancouver is a contender. Like them or hate them, (and I lean towards hate!) they are a fair example of the kinds of teams the Leafs have to match up against to have a chance at a deep playoff run.
The first obvious flaw was the complete lack of firepower. The Leafs couldn't finish the 5-on-3, and other than that they weren't really getting the good chances they would need to beat a goalie like Luongo. They need a few more big guns up front, they need to actually hit the net if they want to take point shots, and they need to settle in to lines long enough to work out some good chemistry and a few interesting set plays. They had a number of bad offsides and stupid blind passes. Also, has anybody else who watches this team regularly ever seen members of the same professional hockey team collide with each other as often as the Leafs do?
Coaching can fix that. I don't know what Wilson is doing, but these guys don't seem to have much confidence in each other. The players don't seem like they know where their linemates are, and as a consequence they are far more likely to dump and chase at the blueline, or create turnovers.on the breakout.
I've also seen Wilson bench rookies like Kadri or scoreres like Kessel for fumbling while at least trying to do something creative, but in last nights game Versteeg, who got mouthy with the refs, and Komisarek, who is just being his usual meathead self, both kept playing, despite costing the team dearly. The aggressive, irresponsible defensemen seem to be on the ice when the team needs a dependible, shut-down unit. I think what I'm trying to say is that Wilson should go.
Will replacing him turn this team around? Probably not. But keeping him sure isn't helping.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 15:21:10
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I do agree 100 % that the leafs need 3 - 5 additions with some size. I can`t understand the reasoning behind Wilson`s moves, some things he does is mind blowing....don`t you think the players feel the same way about him sometimes ??
Coaching is so important, the last time the leafs had a great coach in my opinion was back in the early 90`s with Pat Burns.
He guided them a long way with 3 players, Gilmour, Clark and Andreychuk, the rest of the team were 3rd liners and grinders.
Beans, can you set up a forum with the question...Should R.Wilson be fired ?....i`d like to see the results, just interested in how most people feel about him as head coach of the leafs. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 15:23:30
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Well said RC!
It's taken some time for me to come to the same conclusions with Wilson, especially a coach with such a good resume - you know, you want to give him a chance and all. But enough is enough, I agree . . . it may not mean winning right away, but there is no sense in losing more than you need to.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 15:42:07
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| I sort of have to agree with Beans here - the team I saw last night just didn't look very good, too one-dimensional, not many real threats. Do any Leafs fans really think that a different coach will somehow get more out of the current Leafs team than Wilson? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 15:49:46
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Yes nuxfan - count me in!
If I was coaching, for instance, Komisarek would be sitting out a game or two at least; Grabovski would be on the top line with Kessel and perhaps Kulemin; And Kadri would be my second line centre, while Bozak would be in the minors.
That's 5 more wins right there! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 17:10:53
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I can't say for certain that a change of coach will be a significant boost to the team, nor do I think such a move has ANY chance of being something of a miracle cure. This is not a team with enough offensive talent win many more games than they do.
But answer me this: Which Leafs are currently playing their best hockey almost every night? Schenn, Grabovski, MacArthur, Kaberle, Brown? The list is debatable, but the point is that whether you love or hate the Leafs, you must admit it's a short list.
Several of the Leafs defencemen HAVE played much better, it's in them: either the structure, the discipline or the motivation simply isn't there. The forwards are weak, nothing can change that, but what is glaringly obvious is that they don't play with much of a system. Whatever plans of attack they have are either abandoned by a lack of confidence, or underdeveloped because of all the line juggling.
If somebody can get just a little more out of these guys, the odd close loss might start going the other way. I've seen enough to say that it doesn't look like WIlson can get anything more, so what's the harm in giving somebody else a chance? It's not like it will cost a cap hit or draft picks...
Will a few extra wins equal the cup? Not a chance, but you've got to start somewhere.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Yewcandoit
Rookie
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 17:19:45
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One thing that might help the Leafs.
Give Kaberle the C, and Phaneuf the A.
But I thought it was pretty funny yesterday how after every Vancouver goal, they switched the shot to the man that helped build todays
Canucks. Good ol' Burke.
Making hockey more accessible:
[Mod Edit - Spam, please remove from your signature] |
Edited by - Beans15 on 12/19/2010 20:19:01 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2010 : 20:22:12
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As I said in the past, Wilson is not the right coach for this team. However, move him out and put in Scottie Bowman in his prime and this team is still not good enough to be a playoff team.
Even with Slozo's moves (which mostly make sense) it does not make the Leafs significantly better. Furthermore, no one is considering the 10-15 games it take most teams to get comfortable with a new system which would surely be part of a coaching change.
Switch now and this year is still a write off. However, they would be better prepared for next season.
Alas, Leaf Fans, it will not happen. For Wilson to get fired, Burke would have to admit he made a mistake. For a guy who has never admitted to a mistake in his career, why would one think it will happen now??
Wilson will not be gone until the summer. It will be a 'mutual' decision or Wilson stepping down. Until then, more of the same in Toronto. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 07:39:45
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Thats true Beans...these 2 ego - maniac`s will never show in public any wrong doings by either.
I still do believe that Burke and Nonis can turn the leafs around in time but Burke and Wilson do have swelled heads. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 08:13:32
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So Beans . . . Wilson has had more than his 10-15 games. WAY more. And you admitted yourself that on paper, before the season started, the Leafs had a defence that was top third in the league.
Where is that defensive system?
If a new defensive system was put into place right now, the 10 - 15 game period of "learning" might be better than what we have now! After all, the players will be excited to play for a new coach who might actually have some idea of how to coach an NHL team . . . lol
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 09:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
So Beans . . . Wilson has had more than his 10-15 games. WAY more. And you admitted yourself that on paper, before the season started, the Leafs had a defence that was top third in the league.
Where is that defensive system?
If a new defensive system was put into place right now, the 10 - 15 game period of "learning" might be better than what we have now! After all, the players will be excited to play for a new coach who might actually have some idea of how to coach an NHL team . . . lol
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Hey, agree completely. However, in my humble opinion, to salvage a season a coach needs to be moved out at the 20 game mark. At this point, even with the 10-15 games it takes for a system to be developed and accepted, there would be 40-45 games left in the season.
Unfortunately, the Leafs have played through 32 games. If they made a move today they would be closer to the 50 game point before improvements were producing on the ice. At their current pace, they would have about 44 points at that point. Considering it takes 88+ points to make the playoffs, the Leafs would need to play over .700 hockey to fight for an 8th place spot.
Point being. It's too late for this season.
But, I would suggest that a new coach is definitely needed. No questions. As I said, Wilson will 'resign' shortly after the regular season, but we all will know that it was mutual to say the least. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 09:25:03
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| I still think he'll be turffed before the end of the season, prolly as soon as they are mathematically out of playoffs. Depending on who you ask, that could be now ! |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 19:23:45
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Hah. I love when both the coach and the team reach a 'mutual decision to move on'. Lot's of people agree to being without a job, right?
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Guest7752
( )
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Posted - 12/21/2010 : 06:34:20
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wow.... 10 straight penalty minutes to Atlanta after they jumped to a 2-0 lead could not even help the Leafs this time... things are getting worse indeed....
we were told that Phaneuf (mr. "C") would ignite this team upon his return... more like he's making sure they burn to the ground
Kadri sits and Orr plays... oh yes.. worse indeed....!!! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 09:50:15
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you know, when the Phaneuf trade happened consensus was that TOR won it hands down. But seriously, until TOR actually begin to do something with him in the lineup, this trade is a wash IMO - they seem to have just traded bits that don't fit into their team. Aulie could actually end up being the biggest part of this trade.
So, I heard there was booing, calls for Wilson's firing, and more waffles. I wonder how bad the waffle thing can get... |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 10:07:59
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| Apparently the waffle thing is starting to catch on big time. Dion hasn't demonstrated anything of any substance since he arrived in Toronto. He has 1, yes, 1 goal since being aqquired last season, is caught out of postion going for the big hit, and so far, is a defensive liability. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 10:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
you know, when the Phaneuf trade happened consensus was that TOR won it hands down. But seriously, until TOR actually begin to do something with him in the lineup, this trade is a wash IMO - they seem to have just traded bits that don't fit into their team. Aulie could actually end up being the biggest part of this trade.
So, I heard there was booing, calls for Wilson's firing, and more waffles. I wonder how bad the waffle thing can get...
As far as Phaneuf goes, it's the good with the bad. He is not a player that changes the face of the team. Period. Not in Calgary and now not in Toronto.
Can someone from TO (on in the know at least) tell me about these waffles??? I laughed my junk off last night when the guy on TSN was talking about waffles on the ice, but I don't get the meaning??
Here is a little thing I read this morning. Kind of puts the Leafs past and future in perspective.
Noah Love December 20, 2010 – 10:32 pm
Every time the Toronto Maple Leafs make a trade or a signing, general manager Brian Burke and head coach Ron Wilson start talking about how the team is getting closer to how they envisioned it. Which is to say, big, tough and competitive.
Of course, if you have watched the Leafs much this season, you would probably agree that they are not any of those things.
The Atlanta Thrashers, who beat the Leafs 6-3 on Monday, are all of these things. Strangely, they are a team constructed almost exactly the same way.
Here is a breakdown of the two teams’ rosters and where they differ:
GOAL
Leafs Young Swede Jonas Gustavsson backs up former all-star J-S Giguere.
Thrashers Young Czech Ondrej Pavelec has stolen the starting job from former Norwegian league all-star Chris Mason.
Difference One scary loss of consciousness aside, Pavelec, a Thrashers second-round pick, has over two seasons shown the potential to be an NHL starter for a long time to come. Gustavsson hasn’t had enough of an opportunity to show he is the goaltender of the future in Toronto. He has flashes of brilliance, punctuated by blowout losses.
DEFENCE
Leafs They have a top five 2008 pick (Luke Schenn), an offensive-minded big man (Dion Phaneuf), a crafty European (Tomas Kaberle) and a middling free agency pickup (Francois Beauchemin).
Thrashers They have a top five 2008 pick (Zach Bogosian), an offensive-minded big man (Dustin Byfuglien), a crafty European (Tobias Enstrom) and a middling free angecy pickup (Ron Hainsey).
Difference A couple of things: First, Toronto’s fifth and six guys are Mike Komisarek, who you might go so far as to call a massive bust, and sophomore slumper Carl Gunnarsson. Atlanta’s are Stanley Cup winners and minute-munching stalwarts Brent Sopel and Johnny Oduya. Second, Atlanta has the highest scoring blue line in the league — Enstrom had two goals against Toronto on Monday, and he and Byfuglien have combined for 16 on the season. The Leafs’ defenders have been nothing short inept in the offensive zone. All six Toronto defenders mentioned above have one goal apiece.
FORWARD
Leafs Phil Kessel is the team’s most talented player, but he is prone to disappearing. The Nikolai Kulemin-Mikhail Grabovski-Clarke MacArthur has produced with some consistency, though frequently late in games when a win is out of reach. Kris Versteeg and Colby Armstrong both compete. Nazem Kadri is the hope for the future.
Thrashers Andrew Ladd finally seems to have found offensive consistency and took the captain’s ‘C’ in November. Bryan Little and Anthony Stewart are finding some chemistry with sophomore Evander Kane. Rich Peverly and Nik Antropov provide depth.
Difference Recent first rounders Little, Kane and Alexander Burmistrov give the team a very bright future after the Antropovs and Ladds disappear from view. Those three have combined for 25 goals so far this season, which is 25 more than Kadri has so far. Most of the Leafs’ best players, Kessel aside, are second and third liners on quality teams. Or worse.
BOTTOM LINE
The weirdest part of the Thrashers’ success and the Leafs mess? Atlanta, according to capgeek.com, is spending a league-low US$41-million on its players, while Toronto is up at $54-million. With $18-million in cap space, Thrashers GM Rick Dudley could do basically anything before the trade deadline (if ownership lets him). He might be happy to go with what is working and let the chips fall where they may. Either way, he has a boatload of young prospects who will keep the franchise competitive for years to come. Leafs GM Burke, meanwhile, will hope next summer’s free agency period can bring success back to the Air Canada Centre.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 12/21/2010 10:26:38 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 11:03:47
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quote:
As far as Phaneuf goes, it's the good with the bad. He is not a player that changes the face of the team. Period. Not in Calgary and now not in Toronto.
I disagree - and Beans I'm surprised that you think that way, given you've seen a lot of Phaneuf-the-bad-guy as an EDM fan.
As a VAN fan, we were used to seeing Phaneuf 7 times a year when he played with CGY. He was hard on us, he laid out punishing hits, was good on the PP, and generally was difficult to play against - he actually laid out one of the Sedins one game! He was not THE face of Calgary, but he was certainly one of the faces of Calgary. He was an integral part of a Calgary team that people wanted to see us play against, we all knew we'd see a hard fought tough game. Vancouver fans hated him more than any other Flame, probably a lot of Vancouver players hated him. Probably a few feared him. I don't think anyone was particularly sad to see him leave the conference.
When TOR was in town Saturday, he was just a dude on the ice. He didn't throw any big hits, he didn't throw down any one-timers from the point. He was not the Phaneuf we were used to seeing, he wasn't effective or menacing. It was surprising more than anything, to see the change in him - we simply expected the old Phaneuf to be there and be hard to play against, and he wasn't.
Until Phaneuf gets back to what made him so effective, TOR has not won this trade.
quote:
Can someone from TO (on in the know at least) tell me about these waffles??? I laughed my junk off last night when the guy on TSN was talking about waffles on the ice, but I don't get the meaning??
I believe that it is a suggestion that the Leafs should eat a breakfast, in order to have energy during the game.
The green dudes in VAN got into it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0UF1yxGuVc. Love it. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 11:22:46
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| I believe it's in reference to the term "waffling", undecided, ho humming, that kind of thing. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 12:51:18
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I can't believe people are saying this trade was a win or a wash for Calgary.
First of all Calgary are worst since the trade. Ian White (what many thought was the main peace of the trade) is gone, so is Mayers. Stajan has a hard time and was sat down for a few games. Hagman is the only one who's keeping up what he's doing which is solid 2nd liner with 40ish points.
Toronto got a young big prospect in Aulie, a pk specialist who skates fast and works hard every night in Sjostrom and a young captain who has all the potential, plus he got injured most of the season. It's also normal to be shaky when you come back from an injury.
Also the article you quoted about the Thrashers is really good. I knew the Thrashers were gonna be good they have a really good young deep team. I think the main difference between Toronto and Atlanta is depth. Toronto has none, Atlanta has a lot. The other thing I took from that is that everybody is achieving at their full potential in Atlanta and that's why they are successful. And in Toronto almost everybody is underachieving. This tells a lot on the coach. I saw worst teams play better under Paul Maurice. The past three years is the worst I've seen the Leafs play since I watch them. Maybe only Mike Murphy did a worst job in 96-97 and 97-98. Ron Wilson has to go, there is no system, there is not structure. I've been saying this for a while and I'll keep saying it until I see a competitive team on the ice every night. Ron Wilson is not the guy for this team.
I agree that the Leafs are not really talented, but every not so talented team can at least compete night in and night out if they play the coach system. Look at Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta, Montreal... I also agree that Burke is too stubburn to fire Ron Wilson, this is his biggest mistake.
As for the Kessel deal, yes I agree it hurts our rebuilt. When the trade was made it didn't look so bad, but now it does. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 13:18:50
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quote:
I can't believe people are saying this trade was a win or a wash for Calgary.
First of all Calgary are worst since the trade. Ian White (what many thought was the main peace of the trade) is gone, so is Mayers. Stajan has a hard time and was sat down for a few games. Hagman is the only one who's keeping up what he's doing which is solid 2nd liner with 40ish points.
Toronto got a young big prospect in Aulie, a pk specialist who skates fast and works hard every night in Sjostrom and a young captain who has all the potential, plus he got injured most of the season. It's also normal to be shaky when you come back from an injury.
Calgary certainly did not win this trade, I'll give you that. But so far, this has not turned out to be nearly as one-sided as the analysts thought earlier. To me, there is no clear winner.
CGY is doing worse than they did last year. TOR is about the same as they were last year. CGY has nearly nothing left from the trade, but they also don't have a 6.5M contract for the next 5 years on defense that they don't want. If Phaneuf doesn't return to form this year or even next year, then all TOR really got was a massively under performing defenseman.
One thing I agree with you about - Aulie. He is certainly a good prospect, and might in fact end up being the best thing about this trade in 5 years time. However, until he cracks the team, he is simply a prospect. The AHL is full of them.
quote:
And in Toronto almost everybody is underachieving
With the exception of Phaneuf, Kaberle, and Kessel, I see no one in TOR that is underachieving. Perhaps you are over-expecting. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 14:26:52
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| Well the three you just named are their biggest stars. So a big part of the team there. I would definitly add Komisarek and Beauchemin. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 16:53:21
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nuxfan....i agree with your analysis of how Phaneuf used to play vs the Canucks (and others) and i almost feel that the pressue (playing in TO, getting the C, being claimed as a savior, etc) has changed him, and not for the better! Let's face it, Beans isn't the only person on this planet who feels that Phaneuf comes with the "take the good with the bad" label and that he takes chances to make big hits (which often give up scoring chances)! These are well known facts and he's prob playing with a lot of pressure, and stress for that matter! If the Leafs weren't so bad, i think you'd see a return of the "old" Dion. As much as i can't stand him, i used to like watching him, at least back when he was in the conversation of "making Team Canada", "norris potential", etc., etc.....
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LEAFS. Whats the plan in toronto.. 
