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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 12/21/2010 : 17:55:17
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The good with the bad piece only works when there is good. Phaneuf has brought very little to the table at a Leaf. No one can argue that.
I also wanted to touch on a point made early in that the Leafs are not over acheiving as much as Leaf fans over expected. Really, Kessel, Kaberle, Versteeg, Phaneuf are the only players under achieved. I would say that MacArthur is a big over achiever and Grabovski is slightly over achieving. The rest of the roster is doing exactly what they are capable of, which isn't much.
End of the day, talent and coaching wins hockey. If one is lacking but the other is superior, a team can succeed (see Nashville and Washington). However, in TO's case, very little talent and a coach who clearly is not the right one for this team means another lottery pick.
Who was so emphatic at the start of the season about the Leafs being a lottery team and argued with masses of Leafs fans?? Remember those guys talking about 5th in the East?? Remember some of them talking about winning the NE division???
I remember......... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 20:12:47
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quote:
I also wanted to touch on a point made early in that the Leafs are not over acheiving as much as Leaf fans over expected. Really, Kessel, Kaberle, Versteeg, Phaneuf are the only players under achieved. I would say that MacArthur is a big over achiever and Grabovski is slightly over achieving. The rest of the roster is doing exactly what they are capable of, which isn't much.
This is what I was implying - the Leafs are playing up to their abilities. Just because you put an Armstrong or a Versteeg on the first line does not mean that they'll suddenly have 70 point seasons. These guys are capable of only so much - if you thought that Versteeg was going to have 70 points this year, then you were simply expecting more from them than they are capable of producing.
With the exception of Kessel, most of the rest of the Leafs forwards are 3rd and 4th line players on any other team in the NHL.
IMO, Versteeg is neither over or under producing. 21 points so far this year, he is right on track for another 40-50 point season evenly split between goals and assists. His +/- is way under, but he's not playing with that powerful CHI team anymore... |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 20:49:10
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OK the leafs aren`t exactly filling the opposing net...that was expected. I thought and said going into the season that the leafs were going to win an whole lot of 2-1///3-2 hockey games, guess i was wrong.
I said this because the leafs ( on paper only oboviously ) should have one of the best defense`s in the entire NHL. Along with the aquistion of Giguere and the improvement of the monster, the leafs SHOULD BE shutting teams down by keeping them to a limited number of quality scoring chances....but they are not.
These new collection of leaf D-men were stars to a point on their former teams, along with kaberke and Schenn they should be great.
Whats wrong ?? Why are they all constantly stood flat footed while ALL trying to play goalie ?? No - one`s aggressive in their own end...they don`t play man - on - man coverage...they all just stand there and watch the opposing team put the puck in the net!!!
I don`t see any other team do this, why do they play this way for the first 2 periods ? I can`t understand why suddenly in Toronto all these D-men look so bad. All i can see is they are bringing into the game what they practice each and every day.
The system they are being taught ( whatever that is ), is just simply lousy, a large part of this has to lay on the coaches shoulders. Not just Wilson...their asst. coaches must be held responsible for some of this mess also...time to clean house entirely and see what happens...What have they got to lose ??
Kaberle one of the best powerplay quarterbacks in the league !!! What powerplay ?? It`s been lousy, just lousy for 10 years, maybe him not shooting and killing off his own powerplay has something to do with this......maybe other GM`s see this ( along with his soft play ) and didn`t offer the leafs any real deals this past summer.
I know the leafs ain`t no Detroit but they should be closer to the middle of the pack...at times they play unbelievable for 10 minutes....maybe thats when they break off Wilson`s system out of desperation to score late in hockey games for a come-back win...which is always their situation. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 23:00:15
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And *I* get called out for having rose coloured glasses...
quote:
I said this because the leafs ( on paper only oboviously ) should have one of the best defense`s in the entire NHL. Along with the aquistion of Giguere and the improvement of the monster, the leafs SHOULD BE shutting teams down by keeping them to a limited number of quality scoring chances....but they are not.
Jiggy's best days are behind him, and were behind him when TOR traded for him. Do you think that TOR was the only one dumping salary and dissapointment with Blake in that deal? JS is playing pretty much like he did in his last 2 seasons in ANA - a .500-ish record with a GAA of around 3 and a SV% near .900.
You did not get the Jiggy that won a cup with ANA in 07. Don't keep wondering where that goalie is, he's not coming back
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These new collection of leaf D-men were stars to a point on their former teams, along with kaberke and Schenn they should be great.
OK, seriously Duke - I'm sorry, but there is no way that on paper the Leafs sport one of the best defense corps in the league:
- Phaneuf
- Schenn
- Kaberle
- Komisarek
- Beauchemin
- Gunnarson
- Lebda
On paper, I would not even put them top-10. I would rank VAN, LAK, CAL, DET, BOS, PHI, PIT, CHI, NJD, NYR defensive corps on paper at least all ahead of TOR on paper. And for everyone except NJD, it has translated in the standings.
There aren't even that many stars. Phaneuf was a certainly a star on his former team. Schenn is an emerging young solid defensman, who certainly could be a star soon. After that, it gets pretty thin.
- Komisarek - had a lot of promise and had a couple of good seasons in MTL, but could not be considered a star dman.
- Kaberle clearly does not want to play in TOR anymore, and even though he leads the Leafs defense in scoring, he's pretty inconsistent. His best days are not behind him, but he needs a change of scenery.
- Beauchemin was not a star for ANA. He has established himself as a reliable ~25 point dman with OK defensive capabilities and was top-4 in ANA. He has never had a season of more than 35 points, which was 05-06. And in his time with TOR, he has done exactly that - what you see is what ANA saw.
- Lebda and "star" do not belong in the same sentence.
- Gunnarson - too early to tell
TOR has a medium skill defense - on paper I put them in the bottom half of the league.
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Kaberle one of the best powerplay quarterbacks in the league !!! What powerplay ?? It`s been lousy, just lousy for 10 years, maybe him not shooting and killing off his own powerplay has something to do with this......maybe other GM`s see this ( along with his soft play ) and didn`t offer the leafs any real deals this past summer.
The TOR powerplay consists of Kessel, and one of Kaberle or Phaneuf - and all 3 have been inconsistent. There is nothing else! It doesn't take teams long to figure out that they just need to clear the lane for the long bomb so the goalie can see it, or closely guard Kessel because thats where the pass is coming.
Kaberle will be a good offensive defenceman next year, for another team. He needs a change of scenery. I suspect GM's didn't offer much because they know he'll be UFA this year.
quote:
I know the leafs ain`t no Detroit but they should be closer to the middle of the pack...at times they play unbelievable for 10 minutes
Playing great for 10 minutes isn't going to win you a lot of games. Thats why they're not at the middle of the pack. |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/22/2010 : 04:34:45
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nuxfan Jiggy is not the best goalie in the league, but he is certainly no worse than Toskala. So maybe you think Jiggy is over paid, but at least he stops the important ones.(something you never had with Vesa) Also, Luke Schenn is ALREADY our best Dman. I pretty much with the rest of what you said. I just wish we could have kept Ian White from that Calgary deal.
T-RAV |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/22/2010 : 04:40:15
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I find it suspicious that you think Van has the best D in the League.
T-RAV |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/22/2010 : 04:41:45
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nuxfan Jiggy is not the best goalie in the league, but he is certainly no worse than Toskala. So maybe you think Jiggy is over paid, but at least he stops the important ones.(something you never had with Vesa) Also, Luke Schenn is ALREADY our best Dman. I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said. I just wish we could have kept Ian White from that Calgary deal.
T-RAV |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/22/2010 : 04:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9052
nuxfan Jiggy is not the best goalie in the league, but he is certainly no worse than Toskala. So maybe you think Jiggy is over paid, but at least he stops the important ones.(something you never had with Vesa) Also, Luke Schenn is ALREADY our best Dman. I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said. I just wish we could have kept Ian White from that Calgary deal.
T-RAV
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 05:30:15
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Again nuxfan, this is one of the key reasons I think Wilson should be fired, and that it SHOULD be blamed largely on coaching . . . because I think on paper, before this sason started, many here on this site agreed that Toronto WAS top third of the league in terms of personnel on defence.
In your list, I certainly would not have put Jersey or the Rangers ahead of the Leafs. Again, this is on paper, comparing talent . . . we all know that with a very strong system and great coaching, an "ordinary" lineup of defencemen can look amazing (see: NJ for the last ten years before this year), and a great lineup of defencemen with a poor system can look like garbage (see: Calgary this year).
For the first time in a long time, I had been excited about this year's defence, and as usual, the Leafers have disappointed me. But I really think it's the coach this time, because you don't have a collection of subpar seasons like this all around (with the exception of Schenn, perhaps, who has had a great comeback season) for no reason.
This is why I miss having a coach like the dearly departed Pat Burns on this team . . . a guy with a good system that works. Because if coaching to your proper strengths, this Leafs team should be built on hard-hitting defence, and should be a team with a strong forecheck . . . one that plays tough defence and tries to score on the counter-attack with our smaller. faster forwards.
That is not the system you see today. In fact, I defy you to try and find a system!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 07:08:31
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I agree that at the start of the year the Leaf's defense was a top 3rd team on paper. That is not too much of a strech at all. However, ZERO offense and very little defense has changed that in the past 20 games. Good point Slozo, the talent on the back end is there but not being utilized well. Coaching 100%.
The part of the Leaf's fans optimism at the start of they year that baffled me was their perceived offensive improvement. As one poster said, just because Armstrong and Versteeg would be playing on the 1st line does not make them 70+ point players.
The expectation at the start of the year from Joe Average Leaffan was that each Leaf player was going to have a career season and they would coast into the playoffs. Well, reality has set in and players like Phaneuf and Kabere and Kessel are having the worst seasons of their careers.
When you best players are not your best players and your talent behind your best players is below average, you won't win. And when your best players are not your best players, the finger has to be pointed at the coach.
The longer Burke keeps Wilson around the more it will negatively impact his future. I wonder if there will be any changes when Peddie steps down??? I wonder if a hockey guy will be put in place there. I also wonder if the Ontario Teacher's Pension plan gets the heck out of the way if Rogers will do something to improve the team.
Finally, Leaf fans please correct me if I am wrong. The capacity at the ACC is more than 20000 and the game against the Thrashers was barely at 19000. Does this mean maybe the fans are sick of paying the highest ticket prices in the NHL and watching a half hearted effort from a bunch of overpaid/underskilled players???
Maybe the issue in TO is more than on the ice?? Maybe the money making machine forgot they do need to have a quality team as well??? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 08:17:02
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Beans i just posted something similar to what i am about to say in the waffles thread, regarding your comments on leaf ownership priorities. The leafs are spending 54 million in payroll, its not ownership that is the problem, its where the money ( on whom ) is being spent. `` THE COACH `` and coaching staff have to take some responsibility.
Nuxfan, i know 10 minutes a game of great play does not win you hockey games...BUT ...the point i am making is, if the leafs can dominate Vancouver for a stretch of 10 - 15 minutes..don`t you think they should at least be capable of playing even keel for the rest of the game ??
Thats 2 games i`ve seen the leafs play Vancouver this season...they kept the Sedin`s invisible...they kept the best powerplay in the league fruitless...Kesler was outstanding in both these games, thank him and Luongo for your wins. There are some positives with the leafs...absolutely NO CONSISTENT PLAY is their biggest problem, no off ice leadership, COACHING SUCKS.
Again i say coaching isn`t their ONLY problem but i certainly think they are better than basement dwellers. This team has much more over-all talent than Pat Burns 1993 - 1994 leafs squad, but twice he led them into the final four.
The only positive i ever hear about Wilson is his Team USA endeavors...Giligan could coach these teams. |
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bananas
Top Prospect
26 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 09:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans i just posted something similar to what i am about to say in the waffles thread, regarding your comments on leaf ownership priorities. The leafs are spending 54 million in payroll, its not ownership that is the problem, its where the money ( on whom ) is being spent. `` THE COACH `` and coaching staff have to take some responsibility.
Nuxfan, i know 10 minutes a game of great play does not win you hockey games...BUT ...the point i am making is, if the leafs can dominate Vancouver for a stretch of 10 - 15 minutes..don`t you think they should at least be capable of playing even keel for the rest of the game ??
Thats 2 games i`ve seen the leafs play Vancouver this season...they kept the Sedin`s invisible...they kept the best powerplay in the league fruitless...Kesler was outstanding in both these games, thank him and Luongo for your wins. There are some positives with the leafs...absolutely NO CONSISTENT PLAY is their biggest problem, no off ice leadership, COACHING SUCKS.
Again i say coaching isn`t their ONLY problem but i certainly think they are better than basement dwellers. This team has much more over-all talent than Pat Burns 1993 - 1994 leafs squad, but twice he led them into the final four.
The only positive i ever hear about Wilson is his Team USA endeavors...Giligan could coach these teams.
I guess we have different understandings of the "dominate". The leafs played well for stretches in that game, and they did keep the Canucks from getting shots for a while, but dominate is not what they did, the only scoring chances they got were on that 5 on 3.
As far as the defence goes, its a brand name defence. They're like brittnay spears, lots of hype but very little talent. Certainly not top 3rd in the league. Schenn is a good player with more upside but the rest are awful. As someone from the West who has watched Phaneuf for the last couple years, get used to what your seeing.
People can blame the coaching all they want. The reason the Leafs are bad is because they have bad players. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 09:54:44
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guest9502 - I do not necessarily think that VAN has the best D in the league, my list was not ranked. They certainly do have one of the top 5 IMO.
Jiggy might be a slight improvement over Toskala, but the Leafs were not shooting for "slight improvement" when they acquired him, and are not paying 6.5M for a slight improvement. He may stop some important ones, but he seems to also let a lot in. His records and stats speak for themselves, he is way overpaid at this point for what he produces.
Slozo - fair enough, we can quibble about positioning of the Leafs defense at the beginning of the year. However, they were certainly not the "one of the best in the league" as duke had claimed. I'm not implying that coaching is not an issue in TOR. But there is more wrong with that team than a bad coach. Its not like firing Wilson is going to suddenly turn Versteeg and Armstrong into 70 point players, Phaneuf into a Norris candidate, and Jiggy into 2007 Jiggy.
Duke - we thank Kesler and Luongo for a lot of our wins, not just against TOR - they have been playing like that all month. The beauty of VAN right now is that you can shut down the Sedin's all you like and VAN will just get scoring from different players, PP or not - we have a very balanced team, and a very solid defense that can also score. However, VAN did not play a consistent game - as you said, the Leafs outplayed them for stretches - they just could not score when they did. When the momentum turned and VAN outplayed TOR, we scored. That was the difference in the game. So you can complain about lack of systems and coaching, but at the end of the day, TOR does not field a skilled enough team to compete with the likes of VAN. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 10:24:32
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. Today's Leafs have more overall talent than the 93/94 version???
I think that Doug Gilmour, Glen Anderson, Wendel Clark, Mike Gartner, John Cullen, Dimitri Mironov, Dave Ellett, and Felix Potvin might have something to say about that!
How can you think for even one second that a team without a single player to ever get 70 points in a season or win a Stanley Cup has more talent than a team with some of the finest is the history of the game, some of the highest scorers in history, and at least 3 HOFer's.
Seriously, I get that Pat Burns has more coaching chops in his moustache than Wilson has in general but c'mon. I take Gilmour's talent alone against ever current Leaf. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 11:19:19
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Yeah, couldn't agree more Beans . . . I tend to just ignore silly references to teams and players that the commenter didn't see play live, however. This younger generation doesn't give a lick for research, even if it's something enjoyable like hockey for us.
Even with Anderson past his prime, that team was a gritty, scrappy team with punch, with the HOFer Gilmour leading the charge and Andreychuk putting in loose pucks from two feet away and Wendel chipping in with 46 goals for second on the squad.
Talentless, they were not.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 14:36:39
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Yeah, couldn't agree more Beans . . . I tend to just ignore silly references to teams and players that the commenter didn't see play live, however. This younger generation doesn't give a lick for research, even if it's something enjoyable like hockey for us.
Even with Anderson past his prime, that team was a gritty, scrappy team with punch, with the HOFer Gilmour leading the charge and Andreychuk putting in loose pucks from two feet away and Wendel chipping in with 46 goals for second on the squad.
Talentless, they were not.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
hey hey hye don't lump all of us youngins into one bunch there grandpa  23 does that make me a youngin?? lol
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 15:33:34
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ah, I remember 23.... oh no wait, that was 33. Crap  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 15:38:16
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First off guys i`m not a kid. The 1993 / 1994 leafs were one of my favorite leaf teams ever, and i did watch all the games on CBC, i was 30 at the time thank - you.
Beans, did i not list Andreychuk, (and Gilmour and Clark, two of my favorite all time leafs ). It`s the after these leaf players who i said are about equal to todays leaf players.
NOT THAT ANY OF THEM ( todays leafs ) MAY BECOME GARTNER AND ANDERSON...but these players were ( although still effective ) past the prime of their careers, especially Anderson while in TO.
1993 / 1994 players stats ( regular season )
Gartner GP pts
with leafs .... 10 12
overall........ 81 64
Ellett......... 68 43
Mirov......... 76 36
Anderson.... 73 35
Cullen......... 53 30
WOW ...those numbers are mind blowing guys, you really remember your stuff !!!....plus F.Potvin was way over rated.
As i said before this team had 3 very skilled players...2 former greats who were past their prime and the rest were 3rd line grinders..but..the coach turned them into stanley cup contenders...they were a great team to watch. I
I`m not downing them by any means....loved that team. |
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Guest4125
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Posted - 12/22/2010 : 15:38:23
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on most nights this team is simply missing the energy, grit, and passion that wins games. take a look at the Thrashers. perfect example of a team that brings energy every night.
someone mentioned reasons for their failure on the PP is because it's too predictable. 100% agree with this comment. one of the bigger problems is that Kessel is not a puck handler, he's a shooter. so every time he gets the puck on the PP he's got a guy on him before he can even blink. he panics and usually coughs it up. not good.
and as for Kaberle.....he must have forgotten that he's a UFA this summer. don't players usually have a GOOD SEASON in their contract year? he frustrates me more and more every game. i certainly won't miss him when he leaves in the summer. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 19:30:10
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Well guest...someone agrees with me totally on kaberle, i watch all the leaf games and i feel exactly the same way. kaberle is a great passer...and thats it. Very soft, no passion, no grit, no winning puck battles, no hitting, no grinding it out...no guts - no glory.
What he brings in puck handling...he loses 5 times over in all other areas. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2010 : 19:32:47
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There's another player very much like Kaberle in the NHL today. No grit, not physical play, looks like he hardly cares and plays like it.
His name is Nik Lidstrom.
Don't confuse physical play with good play. Look at Dion Phaneuf.
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2010 : 05:23:10
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Agree with Beans on Kaberle - he is a solid player, and doesn't ever make big mistakes. He is one of if not our best defencemen. On an offensively gifted team, Kaberle would be getting his 60 points. Obviously, not going to happen this year, especially with the pp as piss-poor as is currently going.
nuxfan - thanks for the link to the Green Dudes on youtube making fun of the Leaf in the box with the waffles . . . man, that is just pure comedy gold! I love those green guys, they are awesome, and the fact that they picked up on another team's underground thing (the waffle throwing) and incorporated it into their schtick is just hilarious.
Duke - fair enough, I forgot you were actually older than me, ok.
Ok, it's Christmas wish time . . . here goes:
Dear Santa,
I hope that you can fill up Brad Richards' belly with enough booze to make him demand a trade from a very good Dallas team to the lowly Leafs, my hometown team. He is really a quality player that we need in the center position, and although he wouldn't fix all our troubles, he might really turn it in a positive direction, at least.
Now, to make Brad crazy enough to demand this trade, and to have management agree to it, I think we might need a night of Uzo shots and bad scotch ending in a wrestling match at a bar that ends in some hushed-up arrest and dropped charges . . . . so I am guessing your reindeer, elves and even Mrs. Santa might have to get in on this action.
I'm counting on you, Santa. Don't let me down!
A lowly moderator at pickuphockey.com,
"slozo" the Leafer
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest7924
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Posted - 12/23/2010 : 08:40:49
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Just thought I enter the conversation and make a couple comments.
First as far as not having any prospects - other than D'Amigo there's a young centre playing for the Erie Otters right now Greg McKegg who's 4th in OHL scoring with 25g 29a for 54pts in 34 games. Not to shabby. I'm not saying he'll be a star or even make the show but in my mind putting up those numbers is cause for a little optimism.
Secondly, I've had enough of these romours about Richards and Parise coming to Toronto. Year after year you hear about these franchise players nearing the end of their contracts who are dying to sign in T.O - (Rick Nash for example) only to sign elsewhere.
Finally...I've been a Leaf fan all my life and I don't think there is another team in all of sports except for maybe the Raptors that will bring in promising/proven talent that turns out to be busts.
Komiserek, I remember watching this guy play Toronto when he was with the habs and he'd smash everyone abd hardly made any defensive errors. I talk to buddy from Montreal who watch him every night and said he was there best player. The guy comes to T.O and he's a bum. Versteeg - bum, Gigueire - overpaid bum.
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2010 : 09:16:40
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Don't hate on Kaberle. The guy is one of the best players in the game at what he does (smooth passing out of the defensive zone and powerplay puck distribution) I've even seen him improve his game in the past few weeks by taking shots where he never did before. Also, he may not be a physical defender, but how often do you see him make mistakes that lead to awful turnovers and rushes for the other team? Not as often as Phaneuf, that's for damn sure.
The guy is solid. Problem is that he's a role player, not a complete defenseman, like so many people expect him to be. If guys like Phaneuf and Komisarek were doing what they were expected to do, (physical defense - the smart kind, not the pinch and look like an idiot kind - and good shots from the point) Kaberle would look better than he does.
Don't tout the virtues of a totally unproven prospect while trashing a guy who has been solid year in and year out because he isn't doing MORE than is expected of him, especially not when there are players on the team totally under-performing. Guest you put Verseteeg and Giguere on your underperforming list but not Phaneuf? Explain that one.
So many of my fellow Leaf fans need a reality check.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Guest9052
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Posted - 12/23/2010 : 14:47:51
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Realistically, aside from their "2nd" line (Grabby, Kule, and MacArthur) and Luke Schenn (the MAN) and maybe Colby nobody is playing up to their ability nor up to their pay. Kaberle is talented but shows no emotion. Kessel is trying to do too much, he should concentrate on shooting AT the net and let someone else carry it into the offensive zone. or here's a tip, try a GIVE AND GO!!, Versteeg plays like he's just collecting a paycheck. Phaneuf throws huge hits, but always puts himself out of position with out a man backing him up. We clearly need more than just a coach and more than just a first line centre. But how can the players be consistent when the lines aren't consistent. Dammit Wilson, you idiot! Practice Passing, Practice Shooting ACCURATELY!!
I would love to have Potvin now. And Burnsy RIP
T-RAV |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2010 : 15:06:18
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Slozo, you say TO`s powerplay is piss poor...I AGREE
RC...you say Kaberle has great ..power play puck distribution...
Kaberle`s been TO`s powerplay quarterback for.... YEARS```...SSS
WHEN HAS IT BEEN GREAT ?? if kaberle is so smooth so slick...how come every year TO`s powerplay is either 28 th, 29 th or dead last in the league ???....oh i know... its everybody elses fault !!!
Kaberle has some offensive skill and he is a nice guy and all but his habits are sooooo predictable...
He ALWAYS holds onto the puck way too long ...giving the opposing team too much time to set up their perimeter box and therefore getting their shot blockers into perfect position...THUS...very few or no leaf shots get to the net....
Do any of you guys see this over and over ?? i`ve noticed this for years....THATS WHY Torontos PP has been lousy since he has been the man
There was one glitch in this pattern i`m talking about ( with McCabe)...quick pass and release, end result goal...but it became too predictable, it was short lived.
See what Chris Pronger ( and Lidstrom ) does on the PP next time you watch them. ESPECIALLY PRONGER.....the puck doesn`t even hit his stick and boom its on the net, NO TIME what-so-ever for the opposition to set up...and defend quickly on this type of shot, its scramble time best man wins the battle.
Beans, i agree Kaberle is a good ( not great ) hockey player i guess.....but even mentioning him ( or many others ) in the same sentence with Lidstrom....come`on |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2010 : 16:24:42
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Anyway..
MERRY CHRISTMAS
TO ALL....Pick - Up - Hockey....users |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2010 : 21:00:48
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Rumors have it that the Atlanta Thrashers have put Niclas Bergfors on the trading block.
Bergfors, whom was acquired from NJ in the Kovalchuk deal is a young winger with top-6 potential. In fact, he is perhaps top 6 material now, especially on a weaker team.
Which brings me to the Maple Leafs.
Perhaps Toronto should look in to acquiring Mr. Bergfors.
He is an offensively minded winger, who could contribute. Especially, if given the ice time needed.
In Atlanta this year, has lately been often scratched. Even though he has a .67 points per game on the year, or 2 points per 3 games played (roughly).
He's still young and developing, and may have a bright future in the NHL. Something, Toronto could use. A young top-6 forward, with a little more offensive punch than they have now. Their need, a Center. But if developing, another Winger won't hurt to develop with Bozak, and continue with Kessel for the time being.
I don't imagine his pricetag is too high, as, he's been a scratch in 6 of the last 7 games.
Thoughts?
Irvine/prez. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 09:19:28
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quote:
In Atlanta this year, has lately been often scratched. Even though he has a .67 points per game on the year, or 2 points per 3 games played (roughly).
One has to wonder why he's on the block then - something non-hockey related?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 09:30:39
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Maxim Afinogenov anyone??? Not watching a ton of Bergfors makes it hard for me to comment objectively but what is his compete level??? Is he an Afinogenov/Samsonov type player where one night they can look elite and the next they look like a pylon???
If that is the case, don't the Leafs have enough guys like that?? I think the Leafs would be better suited in picking up a hustler/leader type. A guy that will fight all night and never quit. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2010 : 10:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Maxim Afinogenov anyone??? Not watching a ton of Bergfors makes it hard for me to comment objectively but what is his compete level??? Is he an Afinogenov/Samsonov type player where one night they can look elite and the next they look like a pylon???
If that is the case, don't the Leafs have enough guys like that?? I think the Leafs would be better suited in picking up a hustler/leader type. A guy that will fight all night and never quit.
Beans, i see your point, but the whole idea behind suggesting the Leafs try to aquire him is to add a top 6 (maybe better) guy to thier lineup! It's been mentioned a ton of times on here (and everywhere else for that matter) that the Leafs are Kessel and a bunch of 3rd liners!
Not saying a bad attitude or an Afinogenov like player is the answer, but maybe Burke or Wilson or whoever can light a fire under this kid who, by the sounds of it, has more skill than a lot of players on the team? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 14:52:19
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The leafs need 2 hard nosed, skilled, tough Canadian fowards with size to boot !!!
Where the hell their getting them...i don1t know.
The type of player`s the leafs need ( as listed above ) are very , very hard to get. A player who fits this profile is a player who teams just don`t get rid of. The player`s the leafs are looking for are usually locked into long term deals with their teams.
This is why Beans has stated so many times before how important it is for a team to build early through the draft. Once a team has these peices in place ( as the oilers do now ) THEN it gets a lot easier to fill in the holes through free agency. These players are almost impossible to get at an early age, through other means than the draft. |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2010 : 18:39:36
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What does Toronto have that Altanta would want? Defensemen?
That's an honest question; the only time I see Atlanta games is when they play Toronto. Even if this Bergfors is struggling, he seems like the kind of guy with enough potential that he won't come cheap.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2010 : 10:32:26
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quote:
Beans, i see your point, but the whole idea behind suggesting the Leafs try to aquire him is to add a top 6 (maybe better) guy to thier lineup! It's been mentioned a ton of times on here (and everywhere else for that matter) that the Leafs are Kessel and a bunch of 3rd liners!
But Alex, to be fair, if Bergfors cannot crack the top-6 in ATL this year, then there is definitely something else wrong with him. At the beginning of this year, the top-6 was wide open, and I still think the team is young enough that if he played that way he'd get in.
So he's not top-6 in ATL, why do you think he'll be top-6 calibre in TOR?
quote:
What does Toronto have that Altanta would want? Defensemen?
Actually, this is the problem for TOR trading with anyone, not just ATL. They have 4 solid assets - Kessel, Schenn, Kaberle, and Kadri IMO. Kessel and Schenn are not going anywhere, Kaberle is only valuable if the acquiring team can sign him beyond this season, and I don't think the Leafs would part with their one and only bright prospect.
TOR will have a hard time picking up quality players via trade, only because they have so little to offer in return. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2010 : 11:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
But Alex, to be fair, if Bergfors cannot crack the top-6 in ATL this year, then there is definitely something else wrong with him. At the beginning of this year, the top-6 was wide open, and I still think the team is young enough that if he played that way he'd get in.
So he's not top-6 in ATL, why do you think he'll be top-6 calibre in TOR?
I get what you're saying, and i agree with what you said that "there must be something else wrong with him". I have little doubt that there's another issue with him and obviously without knowing what it is, it's difficult to say what he's worth or where he'd slot in on any team. I see him as a potential top 6 guy in Atlanta and i'd have to assume earlier in the year when he put up those numbers that he must have been playing there? Is he irresponsible defensively? Maybe, and perhaps he simply wouldn't improve that aspect of his game and got demoted? If that's the case, often a change of scenery is needed for a guy in the proverbial "doghouse"? Maybe it's bad attitude? Maybe he's been playing hurt? Too many things to ponder and without knowing it's difficult, but i still think he's a potential top 6 forward on MANY teams.
Who knows? Maybe he simply doesn't belong top 6 there, but i'd still say he'd be able to crack the top 6 in TO? Heck, i think i might at this point?  |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2010 : 23:18:44
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If I was Burke, I'd be strongly going after Parise, right now.
Yes it's another high risk move, but Burke is clearly not wanting to rebuild by the draft (Boston fans everywhere cheer).
NJ is going to have a hard time keeping Parise thanks to their signing of Kovalchuk.
Maybe Burke can buy low, with Jersey doing worse than than his own team, Parise injured for the rest of the season, and a RFA at the end of this year.
Is it too high risk for Burke, or is it that impasse of what would NJ want that TOR could give up that they would be willing to trade?
If TOR ends up with a good draft pick position, their 2nd rounder will essentially be a low first rounder, and NJ may lose their pick this year as a penalty... |
Edited by - polishexpress on 12/26/2010 23:22:31 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2010 : 23:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
If I was Burke, I'd be strongly going after Parise, right now.
Yes it's another high risk move, but Burke is clearly not wanting to rebuild by the draft (Boston fans everywhere cheer).
NJ is going to have a hard time keeping Parise thanks to their signing of Kovalchuk.
Maybe Burke can buy low, with Jersey doing worse than than his own team, Parise injured for the rest of the season, and a RFA at the end of this year.
Is it too high risk for Burke, or is it that impasse of what would NJ want that TOR could give up that they would be willing to trade?
If TOR ends up with a good draft pick position, their 2nd rounder will essentially be a low first rounder, and NJ may lose their pick this year as a penalty...
Correct me if i'm wrong but can you trade a injured player? i think not the player has to be activated i think?>
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2010 : 10:01:45
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quote:
Maybe Burke can buy low, with Jersey doing worse than than his own team, Parise injured for the rest of the season, and a RFA at the end of this year.
Polish, you are dreaming here! Burke can buy low? Nearly every team in the NHL will be looking to acquire Parise if NJ elects to not re-sign him, he'll be the most prized RFA during next year's offseason, by a long shot. What team doesn't want a 24 year old 40g/90pt LW?
He is RFA next year, and luckily for NJ he'll command a very high salary - which means any offer sheets are going to cost 4-5 first-round draft picks. I suspect that NJ would be quite happy to receive that in return for him, should it come to that.
TOR might want him, but they have absolutely nothing to offer NJ in return that comes close to matching that value.
Patsy - yes, teams can trade injured players, it has happened before. |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2010 : 11:18:02
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Ya, just what I was thinking is this: Parise will command over $5mil a year in a contract. Can New Jersey afford that?
Because if they can't, and they hope someone hands them an offer sheet, the compensation is 4 first round draft picks for any offer sheet of over $5mil.
I can't see any team trading away 4 1st rounders for one player.
Other teams would wait for Parise to become a UFA post arbitration(like Anti Niemi this year)-Arbitration would definitely occur if New Jersey would give a qualifying offer and not want to pay enough money.
Which is why I say that if NJ will know they can't sign him, they'll trade him.
So my question still remains, is there anything Burke could give up to get Parise? Another first rounder and Kulemin or Grabovski or Versteeg? |
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LEAFS. Whats the plan in toronto.. 
