| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:22:31
Which team has taken the best approach to the rebuild and which will be the better team in the future?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest5806 |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 23:04:27
So 2 1rst rounders from a basement team buys you the world all-star |
| Guest4435 |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 14:33:00
The results are in, in the mind of posters there is no debate, there is like a 10-1 decision here that the winner is edmonton. I imagine a good number of people who have voted are leaf fans, so i think for the most part the so-called blue and white goggles are not in effect here. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 13:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Hall is a telented player, Eberle is too but he may be too small/injury prone. Gagner has solid second line talent. Penner is a big slow grinder with decent hands.
Past that, I don't see a huge line-up of great potential talent.
And for the record, I don't think the Leafs have a huge cauldron of potential talent either, but it is easily compareable to what the Oil have right now, even though very few radio or tv personalities will tell you that.
Kessel, MacArthur, Grabovski, Kulemin, L. Schenn, Gustavsson, Reimer . . . this is not a terrible list. Yes, there is only Kessel there as the lone potential top-end talent (excluding Reimer, who has been playing amazing to start his NHL career), but who do the Oilers have? Hall, and Eberle.
slozo, I get the feeling that you don't watch the Oilers very much...
Ya, I agree completely. Anyone who did watch any amount of the Oilers would at least have a clue about what they were talking about. It's obviously that Slozo catches the 2 games a year the Oilers play the Leafs and that is about it.
To the case in point:
My point behind the Eberle Kadri piece is that YOU stated that Eberle is small and can't hand the NHL game. Eberle is the same height as Kadri and 3lbs less. If you want to argue about 3 lbs, be my guest. If you are saying Eberle can't handle it, how can you say that Kadri can?? Injury prone?? I didn't know that one ankle injury and an appendectomy means injury prone.
I clearly stated in my message that Kessel has youth over Penner. If all you can argue is age and who will be there and who won't, fine. It's impossible to argue their production. Were you not one of the Penner bashers?? Guess your are bashing Kessel then to, right?? Regardless, help me understand this. Here is your exact post:
And to retort to Beans on his point about "The Leafs simply do not have players like this" in reference to Hall, Paajarvi and Eberle . . . sure they do. Kessel, Kulemin and Kadri. Two out of three are better than what the Oil have RIGHT NOW, and the third is taking longer to develop . . . but that's ok with me - there is no guarantee that despite Eberle's skill, he can handle the NHL - just too small, and the injuries are already happening.
So, you can compare Kessel (23), Kulemin(24) and Kadri (20) to Hall (19), Pajaarvi (20), and Eberle) 20). Don't know about your math in Toronto, but Hall and Kulemin are 5 years apart.
So again, you compare Kulemin in a list of players that are 5 years younger and it's ok, but I say Penner and Kessel who are 5 years apart and I am dead wrong.
Nice argument.
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| Guest0750 |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 12:11:54
Magnus Paajarvi, Linus Omark, are two players you missed on edmonton there slozo, they are going to be very good, but guess you didnt see the sweden.
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 11:14:13
quote:
Hall is a telented player, Eberle is too but he may be too small/injury prone. Gagner has solid second line talent. Penner is a big slow grinder with decent hands.
Past that, I don't see a huge line-up of great potential talent.
And for the record, I don't think the Leafs have a huge cauldron of potential talent either, but it is easily compareable to what the Oil have right now, even though very few radio or tv personalities will tell you that.
Kessel, MacArthur, Grabovski, Kulemin, L. Schenn, Gustavsson, Reimer . . . this is not a terrible list. Yes, there is only Kessel there as the lone potential top-end talent (excluding Reimer, who has been playing amazing to start his NHL career), but who do the Oilers have? Hall, and Eberle.
slozo, I get the feeling that you don't watch the Oilers very much... |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/28/2011 : 11:08:51
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Typical rebuttle from Slozo. Can't believe I would expect anything less. False arguments??
Let's clarify.
Penner = 390 games played, 0.58 PPG average, 0.30 GPG average.
Kessel = 340 games played, 0.63 PPG average, 0.33 GPG average.
Kessel has speed in spades over Penner. Penner has size in spades over Kessel.
Both are equally productive. How is that a false arguement. If you argue that Kessel is younger and has more potetial, than I would agree. However, until that potential is reached, Kessel is Dustin Penner with speed and youth. Dustin Penner is Kessel with size and experience. You can't tell me Kessel is a better player as he has not proven it.
Kadri, as listed on NHL.com today, is 72"(6 feet) and 188 lbs. Eberle is listed as the exact same height and 3 lbs lighter. How is it a false argument that they are the same size??
I initially argue with names like Hall, Eberle, and Pajaarvi. All 20 years old are less. You come back with Kessel and Kulemin to argue who are all 4-5 years older than the players I choose. Then you have the stones to stay that Hemsky, 3yrs the sr to Kulemin is not comparable??? Who is that greek dude again?? That's right, it's Hippocrates..................
Finally, the point I was making (which again was completely missed) is that the Oilers are stacked with potential talent. It's not just Eberle and Hall. It 3-4 of their sr players in Penner, Hemsky, Whitney, and Horcoff. They also have super potential in players like Hall, Eberle, Pajaarvi, Omark who are all 20 or less, and then there are players in the middle of that grou, between 20-25 like Gagner, Cogliano, Gilbert, Brule. The Leafs have some talent in the same areas as the Oilers with the massive difference in young talent.
I don't expect for a die hard Leaf fan to roll over and die, but c'mon. This is asinine.
Oi vay.
1) Penner/Kessel
YOU brought this into a discussion about Penner vs Kessel, after I came back with a rebuttal on your original argument, which stated your top 3 rookies versus Kessel and two other on the Leafs.
The whole premise of this thread is based on rebuild, and future . . . and frankly, I don't think Penner is going to get one iota better than he is right now.
The same cannot be said of Kessel, who is 23 years old as opposed to 28 . . . an important 5 years younger.
2) How is it a false argument that Kadri and Eberle are the same size?
Jeesh, talk about constantly changing your argument so that in your mind you never lose!
Look back at what you said, please. You said that Kadri was smaller. He isn't - he's a bit bigger going by height, same weight.
3) You think I missed a point about the constant verbal diarreah concerning Oiler prospects for this distant, unseen glorious future? You even call it "potential talent", which is a joke . . . so you are not even sure they are talented? lol
Hall is a telented player, Eberle is too but he may be too small/injury prone. Gagner has solid second line talent. Penner is a big slow grinder with decent hands.
Past that, I don't see a huge line-up of great potential talent.
And for the record, I don't think the Leafs have a huge cauldron of potential talent either, but it is easily compareable to what the Oil have right now, even though very few radio or tv personalities will tell you that.
Kessel, MacArthur, Grabovski, Kulemin, L. Schenn, Gustavsson, Reimer . . . this is not a terrible list. Yes, there is only Kessel there as the lone potential top-end talent (excluding Reimer, who has been playing amazing to start his NHL career), but who do the Oilers have? Hall, and Eberle.
I really do not get this totally media-driven opinion that the Oilers talent blows away the Leafs . . . especially when a lot of our young talent (Kulemin, Grabovski, Schenn, Reimer, Brent now) is playing so damn well!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 14:41:24
Lol Chop I was in the office all day that Saturday when i threw that challenge at you and hadn't even bothered to look anything up prior. Plus i could tell you where just throwing random remarks out there. 7 - 10 guys on each team i was stretching it 5 - 7 players may have been difficult to disprove.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 14:30:04
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
By the way Chop i complete my bow to you for proving me wrong last week.
Lemieux owns Gretzky
all in good fun, Mario, I tend to just post crazy stuff sometimes just get things fired up. Especially when a particular forum member gets bull headed and can't see anyones pov except his own.
You reponded by giving me a challenged that proved to be harder then I thought it would be. I like that. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 14:02:35
By the way Chop i complete my bow to you for proving me wrong last week.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 14:00:59
Would this not be a more balanced and less obvious answer between the Oilers & Islanders? Sure it would be less talked about as the leafs are not involved but both teams are building through the draft with some potential elite level talent and some decent veterans to groom them along.
The leafs if nothing is accomplished / developed over the next two yrs will have no choice but to start from the bottom as their is not a lot of depth in their farm system / prospects especially with losing the picks to the bruins.
On paper the Oiler's are the heavy favorite to be the better team and until the time comes where the leafs become the clearly dominant team out of the two this arguement is null & void.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 13:59:18
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Kadri - so elite, he has not managed to crack the lineup on one of the shallowest NHL teams over the last 2 seasons.
Until he plays like, 8 games at the NHL level or something, the jury is still out on Kadri.
Not to be like, a jerk or something, but Kadri has played like, 17 games in the NHL with like, the shallowest team ever in the NHL. You were right though, the jury is still out and he sure has not convinced me yet either. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 13:36:16
Kadri - so elite, he has not managed to crack the lineup on one of the shallowest NHL teams over the last 2 seasons.
Until he plays like, 8 games at the NHL level or something, the jury is still out on Kadri. |
| Guest5806 |
Posted - 01/27/2011 : 13:10:15
[/quote]
The leafs have an elite prospect?
[/quote]
Kadri |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 09:28:18
quote:
Nuxfan, i see your points, if a team finishes dead last they can build great players through the draft. Do you realize how high all those players you listed were drafted ?
Yes. Many of them were drafted right around the same place as Kadri and Luke Schenn and Jiri Tlusty - in the first half of the first round in the past decade.
quote:
Nuxfan, i didn`t say TB did not do well through the draft...i said their team didn`t change from the 2009 / 2010 team........to the 2010 / 2011 team throught the draft.....big difference, Those players you listed for TB...were they not there last year ? Did Stamkos have 51 goals last season ? Did Stamkos and St, louis finish 5th and 6th respectively in NHL scoring last season ? Did Lecav. struggle last season, same as this season ( by his standards ) ?? was Hedman, Downie ans Malone there ?
TB signed Kubina, Brett Clark, Dan Ellis, Gagne, and a few others. They also were able to re-ink St Louis to a large extension. And they managed to get Roloson this year as well. Not significant moves you are correct, but the tinkering that they needed to do apparently. They have also had players mature: Hedman has moved from a pretty weak first year dman to an excellent and reliable player. Stamkos has settled into his new found superstar status. Downie has continued to improve and mature, Malone too. Their goaltending is marginally better. And best of all, they got Yzerman as their GM, who seems to have instilled a winning positive attitude there.
TB is perhaps not the best example of a team that takes advantage of EL deals - last year, everyone expected TB to do well and they did not - a sub-par year for a very good team (this year it's NJ's turn). This year, they are living up to expectations, and have performed well.
However, my point is - TB was able to tinker and add little bits here and there due to the flexibility they have in their payroll. Next year, they will not be so lucky, I'm convinced that Stamkos will sign for 7-8M per season, which will leave them approx 14M to sign 10 players to fill in the rest. But no worries, as they have new draft picks that can be signed to EL deals to help fill the void. If they had to sign only UFA's with that 14M, they would not get nearly the same calibre team as opposed to using some EL financials to help.
quote:
You let a smart hockey man like Steve Yzerman indentify 4 - 5 needs on a team, and fill those needs and you have a quick turn-around.
Thats the only point i`m trying to make here. Quick turn-arounds ( 2-3 years are possible ) but you have to bring in the RIGHT players. Look at the Thrashers, 4 - 5 several key personnel and right back in the mix of things.
Every team has a good idea of who the right players are to add - but only some teams have the cap space to do it. The Thrashers are a decent example, they were able to take on a lot of talent (and salary) from CHI, largely due to offloading Kovy, but also with the help of Evander Kane, Anthony Stewart, Burmistov, and Bogosian all still on EL deals. Those guys make a combined 3M per year, once their EL deals are done it will probably be closer to 10M. Thats 7M a year they're saving by not having to pay those players full value. What could the Leafs have done with 7M extra in cap space last offseason?
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 09:05:08
EL = entry level contract. Rookies all sign an EL deal for their first 3 years in the NHL, and are subject to a cap of 875K base salary (and up to 2M-ish in bonuses) |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 07:55:30
Well, I would think at the end of 4.5 yrs being here, if the team hasn't turned around, why would he still be here? Hypothetical, but nothing has changed so far in 2 n' change.....
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 07:48:57
Burke will be there Toxx, wilson maybe not..i hope. Who is going to fire Burke ?? The Ont.teachers pension fund ? thats who own him....I don`t think they will get mad unless they lose money and that ain`t gonna happen.
Burke has free reign in Toronto for a long time yet, as a leaf fan i hope that he has learned from a couple of his bad moves. I think he is capable of building a solid team with a good foundation, people have to give him more time. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 07:40:14
Nuxfan, i see your points, if a team finishes dead last they can build great players through the draft. Do you realize how high all those players you listed were drafted ?
Nuxfan, i didn`t say TB did not do well through the draft...i said their team didn`t change from the 2009 / 2010 team........to the 2010 / 2011 team throught the draft.....big difference, Those players you listed for TB...were they not there last year ? Did Stamkos have 51 goals last season ? Did Stamkos and St, louis finish 5th and 6th respectively in NHL scoring last season ? Did Lecav. struggle last season, same as this season ( by his standards ) ?? was Hedman, Downie ans Malone there ?
SAME CORE OF THE TEAM EXACTLY.....but what changed ?? Can`t say too much about S.Gagne regarding the turn-around ( great player ) he has been hurt all year.
You let a smart hockey man like Steve Yzerman indentify 4 - 5 needs on a team, and fill those needs and you have a quick turn-around.
Thats the only point i`m trying to make here. Quick turn-arounds ( 2-3 years are possible ) but you have to bring in the RIGHT players. Look at the Thrashers, 4 - 5 several key personnel and right back in the mix of things.
These days teams change like the flick of a switch in the NHL. Who knows even why sometimes. Didn`t Carolina and the Oilers both miss the playoffs the following season after they both played off for the Stanley Cup in 2006 ?? not 100 % but i think so. What the hell happened ? 2 top nhl teams one year, bums the next  .....change happens fast sometimes, doesn`t take as long as some people think. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 06:12:17
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
It will be interesting to see by the 2012 - 2013 season. ( season after next shall we pick ) two more years down the road to see which plan will work best, Edm...long draft rebuild...Tor..quick.. trade, UFA, build prospect pool through college.
I`m not picking either, although Edm. certainly does have a very deep prospect pool.
We will see in 2 more years if Burke can put a good squad together, or if he is a fool. I think Toronto is only 3 dam good ( 1st line ) forwards away from being a very solid team, with their young core getting better and more experienced. Burke certainly has the $$$ to work with to aquire their needs if he can find them.
Its a waste of time for anyone to use the arguement.....you can`t put a team together Burkes way quickly......look at Tampa Bay...12th in the east last season....2nd this season. They certainly didn`t change through the draft. Same players as last season ( core players ) but with the right tinkering, key additions, thats the difference. Burke had a decent plan maybe, but he signed some of the wrong UFA`s, wasted too much $$$$$ and cap on Komo and Beach.
By the way Beans, i was watching the pre-game tonight and the hockey panel gave TB`s record 30 - 15 - 5....guess what they said ? TB are rolling playing 15 games over .500 ........if your arguement was right they should have said 10.
I think you're making a huge assumption Burke's still going to be here in 2 years.
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
| Guest9052 |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 04:59:53
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
as a side note, should VAN go all the way this year and win it, they would be another example of a team with no significant EL deals that managed to win.
Hey dude, do you mind expanding on the "EL" for us dummies, please? I don't understand.
Also, Slozzo/Duke, I agree the Leafs have more "prospects" than anyone will give us credit for. That being said, I firmly believe that the Oilers prospects are more promising. At least the ones everyone is talking about... Hall, Eberle, MPS. |
| Guest9235 |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 02:19:10
Not that Im disagreeing with you Beans, just sayying that Omark is not under 20, he`s 23 |
| MrBoogedy |
Posted - 01/26/2011 : 01:09:09
No contest. Oil. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 21:46:19
as a side note, should VAN go all the way this year and win it, they would be another example of a team with no significant EL deals that managed to win. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 21:37:04
quote:
Its a waste of time for anyone to use the arguement.....you can`t put a team together Burkes way quickly......look at Tampa Bay...12th in the east last season....2nd this season. They certainly didn`t change through the draft. Same players as last season ( core players ) but with the right tinkering, key additions, thats the difference. Burke had a decent plan maybe, but he signed some of the wrong UFA`s, wasted too much $$$$$ and cap on Komo and Beach.
TB didn't change through the draft? In the last 3 years, they drafted Stamkos and Hedman (amongst others) - both of them combined, are making half of what Kessel makes. Do you not think that has been a huge benefit for them?
The reason that they could tinker, and make key additions this year, is because they are benefitting from EL deals, due to rebuilding via the draft. You are missing - what you have been missing this entire debate - the distinct financial advantage that teams rebuilding through the draft have. If you build well through the draft, eventually things line up beautifully for 1 or 2 seasons and you have a shot. You get a couple of good players that are making relatively little money, and it allows you to add players that you otherwise would not be able to add for that magical run, because you have cap space.
Look at CHI last year - Toews and Kane both making 875K per year, which allowed them to build a great team around them. They knew it was their last shot before a break up, and they made the most of it. This year, they may do well, but they're a long shot to win it all for sure.
Look at PIT a couple of years ago - Sid and Malkin making 875K each, allows them to add other pieces to the team that they can not afford the next year. Cup win.
ANA in 2007 - Getzlaf and Perry making 450K each. Cup win.
CAR in 2006 - Ward and Staal on the cheap (I don't know what their deals were, but it was EL for both).
(DET in 2008 bucks this trend - I don't know if they had any substantial EL deals, but they are usually the exception here, as they have managed to get some very good players signed to some very reasonable contracts and have a very well balanced team.)
For the most part, this is the model that teams will now try to follow in the cap world - get great players that are playing beyond their current contracts, either through EL or very smart signings. EDM is going to be able to take advantage of that in coming years. For the next 2 seasons after this one, their top rookie forwards will still be making 875K per year each - even though they may be producing at a level of a 5M player or more. That gives them a lot of financial latitude to make moves for a year, maybe two, in order to produce a winner.
For TOR, they are trying to rebuild through free agency. In this model, you tend to pay top dollar for your talent, all the time. There are very few deals to be had for quality UFA's, because there are a lot of teams pursuing them, driving cost up. It is nearly impossible to build a top-to-bottom solid team on the back of free agency alone. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 20:32:40
It will be interesting to see by the 2012 - 2013 season. ( season after next shall we pick ) two more years down the road to see which plan will work best, Edm...long draft rebuild...Tor..quick.. trade, UFA, build prospect pool through college.
I`m not picking either, although Edm. certainly does have a very deep prospect pool.
We will see in 2 more years if Burke can put a good squad together, or if he is a fool. I think Toronto is only 3 dam good ( 1st line ) forwards away from being a very solid team, with their young core getting better and more experienced. Burke certainly has the $$$ to work with to aquire their needs if he can find them.
Its a waste of time for anyone to use the arguement.....you can`t put a team together Burkes way quickly......look at Tampa Bay...12th in the east last season....2nd this season. They certainly didn`t change through the draft. Same players as last season ( core players ) but with the right tinkering, key additions, thats the difference. Burke had a decent plan maybe, but he signed some of the wrong UFA`s, wasted too much $$$$$ and cap on Komo and Beach.
By the way Beans, i was watching the pre-game tonight and the hockey panel gave TB`s record 30 - 15 - 5....guess what they said ? TB are rolling playing 15 games over .500 ........if your arguement was right they should have said 10. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 19:19:37
Just because one's argument is contrary to the vast majority does not mean it is indefensable.
I will take somewhat proven young NHLers over prospects anyday. The only sure-fire 2nd liner and above young gun I can see on the Oilers is Hall . . . and he could be your perrenial 40 goal guy, or he could be a flash in the pan - ya never really know, even when you think you know, with these kids. But yeah, he looks like he'll be a solid NHLer, sure.
Past that it's dreams and cupcakes. Potential . . . ugh, I am a Leafs fan, I have lived with potential for most of my adult life, I want some somewhat proven players who I know are at least half decent.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest5958 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 17:24:01
Now porky, stop being facetious. Slozo's having a tough time of it because his position is indefensible. The truth of the matter is mirrored in the results of the poll, where the Oilers have a resounding lead despite this poll taking place in a place that has a healthy population of leafs fans. The question is not even close. We might as well ask who has a better organization between the islanders and the redwings.
The question is basically this: which team has a brighter future: one that is chalk full of young prospects that have yet to develop, is in line for another top three pick, but is currently bottom of the league, or one that has weaker prospects, a couple solid players entering their prime, has no first round selection next year, and is also basically bottom of the league?
Best case scenario, Leafs snag the most prized and highly contested free agent in the off season and make the playoffs next year. Best case scenario for the Oilers is all or most of their prospects reach their expected potential and the Oilers are a strong contender in 2-5 years.
Pretty much the only way I can say that the leafs are the better team in the future is if I expect all of the Oiler prospects to tank. No, I can't guarantee 100% that they won't. But it's pretty unlikely. On the other hand, unless the leafs change their approach, I would say that them being a perennial 6-12 seed in the East, aka borderline, for the foreseeable future is extremely likely. And by the results of this poll, it would seem 90% of the people on this site agree with me. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 17:03:21
PC, did you even read the poll question? It has nothing to do with which team is better RIGHT NOW in case you didn't notice. It has everything to do with comparing the two teams approach to the future. Edm has been building through the draft. Toronto has hired Burke who has tried to deal his way into the playoffs and set his team up for the future.
Throw in your sarcastic comments to Slozo about how "not a single player the Leafs have in as good as ANYONE in the Oiler organization" and your entire post really was a waste of time, space and effort.
*note, i took out effort, cuz it really couldn't have taken any to conjure up that post. 
|
| Porkchop73 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 16:18:04
Leafs still have more points and are not last in their conference. Which means the Leafs are better then the Oilers.
Sorry everybody has got all the the other arguements covered. This is the best I can come up with.
Slozo, you should know by now that the Leafs have not a single player that is nearly as good as anyone in the Oiler organization. Just stop arguing with them. No matter what player you match up there is an Oiler with loads more talent that is supreme to any Leafs player biggest wishes. And they are all younger so therefor have a brighter future. Can't argue with that. Wish I could tell the future that well. If I could then Lottomax is all mine. |
| Guest4803 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 14:38:21
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5806
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans how can you say the players you listed are going to be better than Kadri ? no-one can tell this. If i remember correctly the Sedin twins were horrible the first 3 - 4 seasons they were in Vancouver...30 - 40 point seasons maybe...8 - 12 goals each maybe....but look at them now..
Kadri plays ( don`t really know ) 15 games maybe and doesn`t get a goal and suddenly he is the next Wade Belak or something, give the kid a break.
the oilers still have 3 elite prospects to toronto's one
The leafs have an elite prospect? |
| sahis34 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 14:06:08
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
really Slozo that argument was about as weak as, Thornton hit Perron's neck,,,,
Thornton did hit perron's neck, it just made his head snap back, I don't get how people don't see that. I read an article that said it was an elbow to the head, which is frankly ridiculous
Go OILERS Go!!! |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 13:26:41
really Slozo that argument was about as weak as, Thornton hit Perron's neck,,,, Kessel can be compared to any of Hall Eberle or Magnus in your books but the players beans named who are closer in age and games played in the NHL cannot well then you are wearing the deepest of blue tint.... The Leafs have a serious problem with prospects.. and in my books if you have played a complete season in the NHL you are no longer a prospect so don't give me Kessel as a prospect or Grabovski,, sure these guys show potential but tell me with a straight face you wouldn't trade Grabovski, Kulemin for Hall and Eberle well any GM would call you crazy,, Kessel well i could understand an argument why you wouldn't trade him for the any of Hall Eberle or Magnus i still would personnally but he is the only one perhaps worth more than any of the Oiler's prospects...
Now if you want to compare good prospects between Edmonton and Toronto, you are indeed comparing Kadri and Aulie to Hall Eberle Omark and Magnus and i do not think the leaf's measure up
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Guest5806 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 11:56:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans how can you say the players you listed are going to be better than Kadri ? no-one can tell this. If i remember correctly the Sedin twins were horrible the first 3 - 4 seasons they were in Vancouver...30 - 40 point seasons maybe...8 - 12 goals each maybe....but look at them now..
Kadri plays ( don`t really know ) 15 games maybe and doesn`t get a goal and suddenly he is the next Wade Belak or something, give the kid a break.
the oilers still have 3 elite prospects to toronto's one |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:42:17
Typical rebuttle from Slozo. Can't believe I would expect anything less. False arguments??
Let's clarify.
Penner = 390 games played, 0.58 PPG average, 0.30 GPG average.
Kessel = 340 games played, 0.63 PPG average, 0.33 GPG average.
Kessel has speed in spades over Penner. Penner has size in spades over Kessel.
Both are equally productive. How is that a false arguement. If you argue that Kessel is younger and has more potetial, than I would agree. However, until that potential is reached, Kessel is Dustin Penner with speed and youth. Dustin Penner is Kessel with size and experience. You can't tell me Kessel is a better player as he has not proven it.
Kadri, as listed on NHL.com today, is 72"(6 feet) and 188 lbs. Eberle is listed as the exact same height and 3 lbs lighter. How is it a false argument that they are the same size??
I initially argue with names like Hall, Eberle, and Pajaarvi. All 20 years old are less. You come back with Kessel and Kulemin to argue who are all 4-5 years older than the players I choose. Then you have the stones to stay that Hemsky, 3yrs the sr to Kulemin is not comparable??? Who is that greek dude again?? That's right, it's Hippocrates..................
Finally, the point I was making (which again was completely missed) is that the Oilers are stacked with potential talent. It's not just Eberle and Hall. It 3-4 of their sr players in Penner, Hemsky, Whitney, and Horcoff. They also have super potential in players like Hall, Eberle, Pajaarvi, Omark who are all 20 or less, and then there are players in the middle of that grou, between 20-25 like Gagner, Cogliano, Gilbert, Brule. The Leafs have some talent in the same areas as the Oilers with the massive difference in young talent.
I don't expect for a die hard Leaf fan to roll over and die, but c'mon. This is asinine.
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| The Duke |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:22:44
Slozo, Eberle is a midget compared to NHL size players, every1 knows this. He has amazing skill and hopefully will have M. St. Louis`s luck when it comes to injuries. Eberle may be bigger than Theron Fleury but he is retired
One things for certain, when you are 5`9...5`10...in todays NHL you are very exposed to the average players elbow on head shots. The corners aren`t a very friendly place with those monster like D-men in todays game. Smaller players now seem to get their head squashed againist the boards these days by the opposing D-mans hip. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 09:11:08
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well of course I am going to say something about this!!
Kessel = Penner (like it or not, production talks)
Kulemin is not as skilled as Hemsky, maybe more stable with injuries, but not as skilled. Not even close.
Kadri is smaller than Eberle(who won't stand up to the NHL game according to you), not as good as Hall, and not as good as Gagner.
This still leaves Paajarvi, Omark, Horcoff, Whitney, Foster, Cogliano, Smid, Peckham, and Brule as legitimate NHL players today. All but Horcoff are under the age of 30.
You can name 3 Leafs, I can name 3 current Oilers as good and 3 Oiler prospects to be better.
And I fail to understand this 'no goaltending plans' comments when comparing the two teams. Please tell me how Gustovsson has proven to be so much more effective than the Oilers current #1 prospect of Dubnyk??
There still is some Blue and White undertones to the comments, as much as they are trying to be hidden.
Wow. All I can say is . . . wow.
Well, ALMOST all! 
1) False Argument #1
You name three young rookies, and say the Leafs have no one compareable. Then out of nowhere, after my response has you bubbling at the mouth, you compare Penner to Kessel.
Hunh?!?
2) False Argument #2
You then go on to compare Hemsky to Kulemin . . . hunh?!? You are saying Hemsky is as young as Kulemin, and put him in the same category of youth building?!? Talk to Kulemin in three years, when he reaches his apex of development - THEN we can compare, maybe.
3) Incorrect Factual Information
Kadri (6' 188 lbs) is NOT smaller than Eberle (5'10", 185 lbs) . . . if anything, they are comparable weight (both have bulked up considerably before this year) by Nazem is taller.
4) More False Argumentation
You then go on to compare Kadri to whoever you think might stack up better than him, as if I am holding him up on this pedestal . . . uh, NEWSFLASH: I never compared Kadri to Hall, and Gagner was never in the discussion.
Brutal.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest5806 |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 22:58:12
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
Building from the goaltender out is not realistic in today's NHL. Look at the goalies from the final four in last year's playoffs. T.O. pays more for their (as of yesterday 3) tenders than any team in the league! Top goalies in the league; Thomas, Miller, Lundquist, Rinne, Backstrom, Price. Which of these do you see winning the cup?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011.
that's what the preds do
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| sahis34 |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 22:57:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans i would say that 75 % of the leafs core players, who they plan to build around and keep are between the ages of 20 - 26 years old. The leafs are also a very, very young team.
the leafs core is kessel phaneuf schenn grabovski and macarther
the oilers core is hall eberle paajarvi hemsky whitney petry peckham and the list goes on. Just because your young doesn't mean your future is good.
Go OILERS Go!!! |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 18:25:26
Building from the goaltender out is not realistic in today's NHL. Look at the goalies from the final four in last year's playoffs. T.O. pays more for their (as of yesterday 3) tenders than any team in the league! Top goalies in the league; Thomas, Miller, Lundquist, Rinne, Backstrom, Price. Which of these do you see winning the cup?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
| sahis34 |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 17:40:48
burke can pick a good team, like he did in the olympics,however, he just made a bad trade which pretty much slowed down the leafs by 2 years
Go OILERS Go!!! |
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