| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:22:31
|
Poll Question:
Which team has taken the best approach to the rebuild and which will be the better team in the future?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
|
Edited by - Beans15 on 01/21/2011 14:25:44
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:23:25
|
just because 
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
 |
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:46:37
|
This is loaded poll and obviously the high Leaf population will be in full force. However, it will be interesting to see what the non-Leaf and non-Oiler fans believe.
I don't see how one can't say the Oilers based on their skill and their age. Talking about TO being young, the Oilers are as young and TO does not include as many players over the age of 30 the Oilers have. So in the next few years the Leafs will age and the Oilers will actually reduce in average age as the older guard move on.
Simply put, the Oilers have significantly more potential on the team today and down on the farm than the Leafs do. |
|
|
|
Guest9722
( )
|
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:50:26
|
I think in order to validate this question a few things need to be defined as some oiler fans may interrupt this differently than some leaf fans or vice versa
"Best approach" - draft picks vs fa signing and trades?
"Better team" - what is the measure of success? - playoffs, cups?
"Future" - 3-5years,5-10 years or other.
|
|
|
|
Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 15:01:54
|
The truth hurts, but I voted for Edmonton. Edmonton having Paajarvi, Eberle, Hall, Omark and Gagner plus will probably have a top 5 pick this year is pretty scary.
Sure they will lose some players because they probably wont be able to afford all of them at some point, but right now the future looks brighter in Edmonton.
I thought Toronto would be a little bit better by now, at least fighting for a playoffs spot. But really if they can't do it with this group, what can they add to improve the team big time? Not much except for hoping Kadri and Aulie become studs in the NHL and to pick up a free agent of the caliber of Brad Richards, and really there's not many great centers available. Other then that it would be a waiting game for them to start drafting again. A huge turnaround after firing Ron Wilson would be a possibility. I see them as fighting for a playoff spot in a near future (2-3 years) but I don't see them as a cup contender.
As for Edmonton they have the talent to be a contender in 4-5 years (if the chips are well played) They need a better goalie, in the long run, and a stronger defense, but some of that can be added through free agency, especially with all the cap space they have.
Also even though Edmonton has the history of players leaving and\or not wanting to go there, it will be a more promising market for players with young stars rising. |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 15:08:29
|
The Oilers.
Like I said in another thread, I dislike both teams pretty equally (as a former Flames fan from the 80's and early 90's, my dislike for the Oilers might be a bit more). But if the Canucks all died in a plane crash and the NHL said that Vancouver could have either the Oilers or the Leafs as a replacement franchise today, I'd want the Oilers.
I believe that they have taken the best approach, and built their future core via draft as opposed to free agency. Note I said "future core". Neither team has a really solid proven core right now, but at least EDM has a potential core to build around, and then fill in the blanks via free agency. TOR has a decent future in Kadri, Kessel, Phaneuf, and Aulie, but only 2 of them are proven at the NHL level right now.
The measure of any team's success is always a cup win - it has to be, if you're not playing to win it all in a highly competitive sport, then what are you playing for? However, you get to the ultimate success through little successes first - a winning season, then a playoff berth, then a division championship, then a conference championship, then a cup run. Those landmarks are not currently in sight for either team, but IMO the road is less bumpy and shorter for EDM. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 18:56:45
|
| It's not even close for me...Edmonton. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:53:50
|
On paper the Oilers have a deeper drafted pool and should end up with a great team 4 - 6 years down the road. On paper the leafs have one of the best D-Units in the NHL...like i said ON PAPER.
I think the leafs should be more sucessful than the Oilers over the next 2 - 3 years ....after that the Oilers should bypass the leafs.
But, really who knows ?? I love T.Hall, he is a great player, i do watch some Oiler games.
Honestly, after Hall and maybe Eberle, who knows how some of these draft picks will turn out ??
If Burke can lure B.Richards to Toronto and Reimer can play all season like he briefly showed recently, and Burke can aquire 2 more big and above average top 6 fowards.....THEN, the leafs will be just fine.
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 16:25:44
|
Always good for a laugh. It's hard not to poke fun at a post like this because it is so scarily jaded. But I love the optimism.
So, just to play along for a second. What happens IF Richards does not come to TO and Reimer does not play well. Then what????
What's plan B??? The Oilers currently have 7 rookies who have play in the NHL this season. They have only have 10 players on their active roster over the age of 25 and the have 21 additional players in their system at the age of 21 or younger. Plus, they get to keep their potential #1 overall draft pick for the 2nd consecutive year.
They don't need all of these players to pan out. They only need about 40% of these guys to be NHL players and they are in a significantly better spot than the Leafs and many other teams in the league today.
The Oilers plan B is to draft a ton and keep the players in the system. The Leafs do not have a plan B. Their plan B went to Boston.
|
|
|
|
Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 17:09:20
|
Ok its intermission and as yet an entertaining game, I have had a few pops and decided to keep up the PUH forum fun today.
Good point Beans, what is plan B for TO?
Clearly the Oil have established a strong core of 3 high potential young stars. Clearly they are going to get another high draft pick next year. This appears to be Plan B or C for the Oil for perhaps two more years.
Plan B for TO, continue to develop assets there is in the system, and try to add to them via trade or free agent signings. Should this fail, the plan is to totally tank it for the 2012 draft and finally get that 1st overall pick, who turns out to be the next Daigle.
Games almost back on gotta go. |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 17:21:44
|
quote:
If Burke can lure B.Richards to Toronto and Reimer can play all season like he briefly showed recently, and Burke can aquire 2 more big and above average top 6 fowards.....THEN, the leafs will be just fine.
If if's and but's were candy and nuts, every day would be Christmas  . One if you missed - if your defense can start playing NHL level hockey again. TOR needs a better defense before they have any shot of winning.
I think there is a good possibility of Richards ending up in TOR next year, given they will have a lot of cap space to sign him and desperately need a centre like him - no doubt Burke will pursue him, although its debatable as to whether or not he'd go to TOR. He won't solve all their problems, but he may provide some much needed playmaking for Kessel.
Reimer, he's played 4 games, 3 of which he did well in. Anything could happen next year, although I'd be surprised if he didn't get a chance with the monster in goal next year.
As for the other 2 big top-6 forwards...I don't know where you are going to get them. There are not many available (none as UFA's next year as far as I can tell), and all teams in the NHL want them if they become available via trade. TOR doesn't have much to offer other teams as trade material, except for the players that they want to keep to build around.
quote:
On paper the Oilers have a deeper drafted pool and should end up with a great team 4 - 6 years down the road. On paper the leafs have one of the best D-Units in the NHL...like i said ON PAPER.
Duke, seriously, you have to stop with the "we're better on paper thing", that paper is starting to look like Nortel stock certificates. We're 40 games into the season, its clear that the TOR defense is not very good at all. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/22/2011 18:29:40 |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:13:59
|
Nuxfan, you missed the point of this segment of the post, when i said ......the leafs have one of the best D-Units in the NHL on paper.....i was making fun, do you seriously think i actually meant the leafs do indeed have one of the NHL`s best D - Core ???
Just finished watching Tor / Wash...where did this young Wash. goalie come from ?? wow, highway robbery several times on the leafs tonight.....2 games for him now i think, 59 saves on 61 shots, not too shabby. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:33:13
|
Beans i would say that 75 % of the leafs core players, who they plan to build around and keep are between the ages of 20 - 26 years old. The leafs are also a very, very young team.
You talk about the Oilers youth when comparing them to the leafs as if TO`s roster is old and aging or something. Toronto`s young team is just as capable of making mistakes as any other young team....and believe me they do.
Besides Taylor Hall, ( maybe Eberle who is TINY ) can you honestly say that any of the other Oiler prospects will turn out to be better than lets say...Kessel, Graboski, Versteeg, Macarthur, Kulemin, Kadri, Bozak, Phaneuf and Schenn ??
These players are all very young and who the leafs will probably keep and build around. Besides the 2 i mentioned do the Oilers have another 7 - 9 prospects who will match this group ?? If you do say yes, then roll me your crystal ball.
TO has a lousy record i know but these players are a starting group with 90 % of them proven and getting better. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 20:54:54
|
Duke, maybe my last message was cloudly. What my point was in that 3 years the Leafs will be 3 years older. They will not be an average of 27 any longer. The Leafs will be adding to their roster by mostly free agents meaning 25 or older. The Oilers will be replacing older players with younger players from their farm system.So the teams today may both be the same average age, but the Leafs are aging and the Oilers are continuing to get younger.
As far as your comment about what Oiler prospects will be as good than the pile of names you set up, let me just give you a little something:
Taylor Hall is on pace for more goals, assist, and points as a 19 yr old rookie than Phil Kessel had in his 2nd year.
Jordan Eberle had more points in the first 2 weeks of his rookie season than Kadri has in his first 18 games.
Ryan Whitney is just 2 years older than Dion Phaneuf and appears to be getting better. Even thought Whitey has played less than 1/2 the season there is a good chance he will finish ahead of Phaneuf in scoring.
Paajarvi, who is known as the biggest disappointment of the Oiler rookies this season, is just 2 points off Tyler Bozak's current production.
That's just a few of the prospects. That does not include the likes of Gagner, Hemsky, and Penner, who are at least as good if not better than the likes of Grabovksi, Kulemin, and MacArthur.
And I am the one who has their abilities to be honest in question???? |
|
|
|
T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 21:47:46
|
It was only a matter of time before somebody started this thread. Can't say I didn't see it coming, what with all the bickering in Leafs threads.
Yes, I am a Leafs fan. And Yes, I can be optimistic at times. That being said, I didn't hire Burke, nor do I necessarily agree with all of his acquisitions. But he is supposedly trying to build a contending team in a "quick turn around", whereas the Oilers are trying to build a team through the draft.
I voted the Oilers for a brighter future. I'd love to have those prospects in my system. You'd have to be stupid not to.
But maybe, just maybe, when the Oil have to get rid of some of these young players due to cap issues in the near future...the Leafs will be there to give to 2 first round picks for them.
Peace and Respect |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 23:33:21
|
@T-RAV:
Unless the EDM management puts one of us on their financial team, they will not have any issue signing any of their rookies to 2nd contracts, who will all be RFA's
They only have 17 roster players signed for next season, and only 7 for the year after that.
The year in which Hall, Eberle, and Paajarvi become RFA's, only Horcoff and Gilbert are signed.
The year before Hall et al are RFA, Hemksy, Penner, Fraser, Foster are off the books, and Gagner, Brule and Omark become RFA's. By that time, it will be clear what they are worth to the organization moving forward(if they are still there), and what will be necessary to sign the aforementioned 3 touted rookies.
And, if Hall reaches near his potential, I dare the Leafs to make a trade for him. If kessel was worth 2 1st's, then what will he Hall be worth? |
|
|
|
Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 04:56:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
@T-RAV:
Unless the EDM management puts one of us on their financial team, they will not have any issue signing any of their rookies to 2nd contracts, who will all be RFA's
They only have 17 roster players signed for next season, and only 7 for the year after that.
The year in which Hall, Eberle, and Paajarvi become RFA's, only Horcoff and Gilbert are signed.
The year before Hall et al are RFA, Hemksy, Penner, Fraser, Foster are off the books, and Gagner, Brule and Omark become RFA's. By that time, it will be clear what they are worth to the organization moving forward(if they are still there), and what will be necessary to sign the aforementioned 3 touted rookies.
And, if Hall reaches near his potential, I dare the Leafs to make a trade for him. If kessel was worth 2 1st's, then what will he Hall be worth?
With all due respect to the sane Oil fans. The way some Oil fans are predicting the Hall, Eberle, and MPS trio will turn out, when there rookie salaries end then they all will be worth at least 10 mil a season. Thats 30 mil tied up in 3 players. Leaving only 30 mil to fill in the rest. Given the current salaries the Oil could not cover it without moving some of their youngsters. I think that is what some Leaf fans are arguing. |
|
|
|
T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 09:13:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
@T-RAV:
Unless the EDM management puts one of us on their financial team, they will not have any issue signing any of their rookies to 2nd contracts, who will all be RFA's
They only have 17 roster players signed for next season, and only 7 for the year after that.
The year in which Hall, Eberle, and Paajarvi become RFA's, only Horcoff and Gilbert are signed.
The year before Hall et al are RFA, Hemksy, Penner, Fraser, Foster are off the books, and Gagner, Brule and Omark become RFA's. By that time, it will be clear what they are worth to the organization moving forward(if they are still there), and what will be necessary to sign the aforementioned 3 touted rookies.
And, if Hall reaches near his potential, I dare the Leafs to make a trade for him. If kessel was worth 2 1st's, then what will he Hall be worth?
Polish, I made no reference to getting them as RFA's. And I was simply making light of an awful situation in Toronto. Go back and re-read my post before trying to correct me. Thank you.
Also, I am not a defender of the Kessel trade. I'm not saying he'll never be great, but he's not on the Leafs current roster.
So where does it end? If Kessel is worth 2 First rounds, then Hall is worth 4 first rounds, does that mean Crosby or Ovie is worth a Decades worth? or that Lemieux or Gretzky would have been or was worth a century's worth of first round draft picks?? At the end of the day there has to be a ceiling.
And as much as you love or hate Burke, he's not exactly brain-dead.
Peace and Respect |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 12:28:20
|
Porkchop, no player signs a $10 million deal as their first contract after their entry level deal unless their name is Alex or Sidney. Furthermore, I don't see anyone on here saying that any current Oiler pick is in that ball park. Hall is looking very good and is improvement almost by the game. If that continues, he will be in the Parise/Kessel money range which is around $5 million. Put in for inflation and cap changes, let's call it $7 million for the sake of argument. He will be the blue chipper for the Oilers will Eberle and Paajarvi behind that. So let's say they will be in the $5ish million range.
That means the 3 top Oiler prospects will be around $17 million. Even over-estimating the value is closer to $20 million, not $30 million. If all those guys pan out and are looking for that kind of money, they Oilers will still have another $30+ million to sign the remainder of the team. That is under today's cap rules. By that time, the cap will more than likely be in the $60-$70 million range meaning the Oilers will have $40+ million to sign the rest of the team.
Let's not forget the young talent the Oilers already have drafted that are in the 18-19 yr old range plus another 2 drafts between now and when the current Oiler prospects looking for raises. So there is a reasonable chance that the Oilers will still have 3-4 rookies in their line up at that time getting paid rookie salaries.
The Oilers staying together is not a question of finances. It's a question of the players wanting to stay together long term. |
|
|
|
Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:22:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Porkchop, no player signs a $10 million deal as their first contract after their entry level deal unless their name is Alex or Sidney. Furthermore, I don't see anyone on here saying that any current Oiler pick is in that ball park. Hall is looking very good and is improvement almost by the game. If that continues, he will be in the Parise/Kessel money range which is around $5 million. Put in for inflation and cap changes, let's call it $7 million for the sake of argument. He will be the blue chipper for the Oilers will Eberle and Paajarvi behind that. So let's say they will be in the $5ish million range.
That means the 3 top Oiler prospects will be around $17 million. Even over-estimating the value is closer to $20 million, not $30 million. If all those guys pan out and are looking for that kind of money, they Oilers will still have another $30+ million to sign the remainder of the team. That is under today's cap rules. By that time, the cap will more than likely be in the $60-$70 million range meaning the Oilers will have $40+ million to sign the rest of the team.
Let's not forget the young talent the Oilers already have drafted that are in the 18-19 yr old range plus another 2 drafts between now and when the current Oiler prospects looking for raises. So there is a reasonable chance that the Oilers will still have 3-4 rookies in their line up at that time getting paid rookie salaries.
The Oilers staying together is not a question of finances. It's a question of the players wanting to stay together long term.
Those are very realistic predictions Beans. Maybe a bit high for MPS. Also not evey Oil fan has to post on PUH to make crazy statements about there young stars.
Anyways thats why I gave the due respect to sane Oil fans. Some Oil fans thing the next Gretzky, Kurri, Messier trio is Edmonton in the form of Hall, Eberle, and MPS. I would be excited too though.
|
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:16:34
|
@T-RAV:
I read and understood you correctly the first time. You misunderstood my post. There is nowhere in my post that I say that that you intended to get the Oiler youth through RFA.
T-RAV, you said: quote:
But maybe, just maybe, when the Oil have to get rid of some of these young players due to cap issues in the near future...the Leafs will be there to give to 2 first round picks for them.
I didn't agree with your statement that there would be a time when the Oil would have to get rid of these young players due to cap issues.
I simply stated when their contracts are up current EDM rookies are RFA's and there aren't many players signed until then. Beans explained above how it won't be an issue of finances to keep them together.
So, before you correct me, re-read your own post and mine. Thank you. (Good point about draft picks, nobody would give up 4 1st rounders unless it was Gretzky, or maybe Crosby) |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:22:59
|
That would be very exciting, but not realistic. What I can more likely see is a trio that could be compared to (staying with current NHL players) Zach Parise(Hall), Miko Koivu(Paajarvi), and Martin St. Louis (Eberle).
Now, before anyone jumps all over me for the comparisons, I am not saying in any way that these three players will become as successful as the players I used to compare. What I am saying is they will be a similar TYPE of players. Hall will be a sniper type player, Paajarvi will be a responsible 2-way players with speed and offensive upside, and Eberle will be a complimentary player who can do just about everything from killing penalties to scoring on the power play.
The Leafs simply do not have players like this. As much as some want to throw out comments like Keith Aulie could be the next Chris Pronger and hope that some peope will believe the gibberish, it's just not likely. Keith Aulie has shown signs to be a big, shutdown type of players like a Robyn Regher. Aulie's career highs in Juniors was 6 goals and 33 points. Not often do players like that just turn into offensive players in the NHL. Never say never, but say very rarely.
Other than Kadri and Schenn, the Leafs cupboard is currently bare. Reimer could turn out to be the next Tukka Rask or could turn out to be the next Andrew Raycroft. Even saying that, it's not like Kadri is lighting up the AHL either. Realistically, Kadri can be compared to Omark today and Omark is maybe #5 or #6 in the depth chart of talented prospects in Edmonton when Kadri is #1 on the list in TO.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Oilers young talents are cutting their teeth in the NHL and showing improvements almost on a nightly basis. The Leafs young talents can not crack the night to night line up of a (like it or not) weaker NHL team. The Oilers have not only more young talent in their system then the Leafs, their talent is also better from top to bottom. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 01/23/2011 14:25:48 |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 15:36:37
|
Beans the leafs are a work in progress too, who knows who the leafs will pick up over the next 2 seasons. One things for sure with Burke, you never know what he has got up his sleeve.
Was only last season he shocked the hockey world by bringing in Phaneuf, no other GM, from what i`ve read, even knew he was available !!
You just don`t know what he is going to do.....thats the one thing i do like about him. He is not a stay pat and go with the flow loser as some GM`s are. Plus he has control in TO to pull the lever.
All you constantly do is say Burke had little to no influence with the Ducks cup win. This guy, that guy, some other guy just all flowed into Anaheim with pure luck. Just give the man credit, he won a stanley cup in the NHL with what was a LOUSY team before he got there. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 16:01:51
|
Hey Duke, so did Jay Feaster, but no one is saying much about him these days are they??
The Leafs are a work in progress. Working to stay being the exact same team they have been for the past 3 years.
Think about this, just for a second. Burke's magic moves in his time with the Leafs has been:
Trading away 2-1st round draft picks and a 2nd round draft pick for a 30-35 goal a year player. The Oilers got that from Anaheim for 1-1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and 3rd round pick on an offer sheet. So the Oilers made a similar move a few years ago and still get attacked for bringing Penner on board. The difference is the Oilers didn't drop 2-1st rounders, only 1, and they only play $4.25 million for their 30+ goal scorer.
Trading away a few under-achieving players for Phaneuf, Giguere, Aulie, and Sjostrom. Well, Phanuef is on pace for less then 20 goals, Aulie can't crack the line up, Giguere wants out, and Sjostrom is where?? Press box maybe.
He drafted Nazem Kadri, passing over various other players who were bigger, strong, and more NHL ready. Kadri was not even rated in the top 10 of Canadian players in the draft let alone the European players. Kadri has been sub-par to this point. Others from his draft class choosen after Kadri(Paajarvi, O'Reilly, Kulikov, Johansson, Ekman-Larsson) have proven (at least to this point) to be better players.
Burke signed Armstrong, Beauchimen, Komisarek, MacArthur, and Gustovsson as UFA's or bring overs from Europe. Pretty easy to say that other than MacArthur and perhaps Beauchimen from a limited perspective the rest have been below average. Armstrong and Komisarek are $7.5 million for the next few years at least. If they want to keep MacArthur it's going to cost them more than the $1.1 million he is getting this year.
Burke appears to be more than comfortable to watch the best offensive defensemen and one of the top 5-10 players of the same style to leave TO as a UFA and get nothing in return.
Burke continues down a path with a coach that has had challenges in improving special teams and overall performance regardless of the personnel. There are various players who have flourished under other systems and coaches who are on pace for career lows in production under Wilson.
So again, how is that plan good?? A work in progress usually has a goal and a direction. Sure, the goal is the Cup, but what is the direction??? Shuffle these players for those players and get the same result. Is that even a plan?? |
|
|
|
Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 16:24:02
|
38 to 5 in favor of edmonton..... hmmm says something in this amazing large Leafs nation!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 18:58:03
|
Beans how can you say the players you listed are going to be better than Kadri ? no-one can tell this. If i remember correctly the Sedin twins were horrible the first 3 - 4 seasons they were in Vancouver...30 - 40 point seasons maybe...8 - 12 goals each maybe....but look at them now..
Kadri plays ( don`t really know ) 15 games maybe and doesn`t get a goal and suddenly he is the next Wade Belak or something, give the kid a break.
As for the Wilson comment, couldn`t agree with you more, the man is an idiot and a moron personality. If not for his timing to be coaching them great SJ teams, his coaching record would SUCK. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 19:13:47
|
Funny you should bring that up Pasty. That certainly does tell something about this amazingly large leaf population. It means we are not voting for the leafs short term plan, meaning we like the Oilers plan better....meaning we are not as Leaf Bias and wear blue and white glasses all the time as leaf - haters say we do...doesn`t it now ??
It just shows that we are much more knowledgeable and hockey wise than people give us credit for. Leaf fans are not voting for the leafs just because we are leaf fans, that in itself speaks volumes for leaf fans here at PUH. |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 19:39:44
|
quote:
Beans how can you say the players you listed are going to be better than Kadri ? no-one can tell this. If i remember correctly the Sedin twins were horrible the first 3 - 4 seasons they were in Vancouver...30 - 40 point seasons maybe...8 - 12 goals each maybe....but look at them now
You remember incorrectly. I wouldn't call 30-40 point seasons, at the NHL level playing 2nd and 3rd line minutes, 1 year after they were drafted "horrible". We certainly wondered whether or not the Sedin's were going to emerge to be worthy of second/third overall pick status and be good enough to build a team around, but at no time did we think they were "horrible".
I'd love to compare the Sedin's first year to Kadri's...unfortunatly Kadri hasn't played one yet. |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 22:10:12
|
***Sidenote: The reason why others think leaf-nation has blue-and-white glasses on are remarks like this one DUKE: quote:
Beans how can you say the players you listed are going to be better than Kadri ? no-one can tell this. If i remember correctly the Sedin twins were horrible the first 3 - 4 seasons they were in Vancouver...30 - 40 point seasons maybe...8 - 12 goals each maybe....but look at them now..
That comment make it look like you think Kadri will be as good as the Sedins. Although I know you were not making the comparison, it would make for good cannon fodder.
End of side-note***
Back to topic:
One thing I'm glad about EDM is that they had the guts to face up to the fact that they stink and do an old-fashioned rebuild.
Why hasn't TO brass faced up to the fact they their team stinks and force a true rebuild is my question?
I truly feel sorry for Leaf fans because for the last decade or more(save for the 06 playoffs) EDM was basicallly in the same position as the Leafs, disappointing fans yearly.
|
Edited by - polishexpress on 01/23/2011 22:11:14 |
|
|
|
T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 06:45:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Duke, so did Jay Feaster, but no one is saying much about him these days are they??
The Leafs are a work in progress. Working to stay being the exact same team they have been for the past 3 years.
Think about this, just for a second. Burke's magic moves in his time with the Leafs has been:
Trading away 2-1st round draft picks and a 2nd round draft pick for a 30-35 goal a year player. The Oilers got that from Anaheim for 1-1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and 3rd round pick on an offer sheet. So the Oilers made a similar move a few years ago and still get attacked for bringing Penner on board. The difference is the Oilers didn't drop 2-1st rounders, only 1, and they only play $4.25 million for their 30+ goal scorer.
Trading away a few under-achieving players for Phaneuf, Giguere, Aulie, and Sjostrom. Well, Phanuef is on pace for less then 20 goals, Aulie can't crack the line up, Giguere wants out, and Sjostrom is where?? Press box maybe.
He drafted Nazem Kadri, passing over various other players who were bigger, strong, and more NHL ready. Kadri was not even rated in the top 10 of Canadian players in the draft let alone the European players. Kadri has been sub-par to this point. Others from his draft class choosen after Kadri(Paajarvi, O'Reilly, Kulikov, Johansson, Ekman-Larsson) have proven (at least to this point) to be better players.
Burke signed Armstrong, Beauchimen, Komisarek, MacArthur, and Gustovsson as UFA's or bring overs from Europe. Pretty easy to say that other than MacArthur and perhaps Beauchimen from a limited perspective the rest have been below average. Armstrong and Komisarek are $7.5 million for the next few years at least. If they want to keep MacArthur it's going to cost them more than the $1.1 million he is getting this year.
Burke appears to be more than comfortable to watch the best offensive defensemen and one of the top 5-10 players of the same style to leave TO as a UFA and get nothing in return.
Burke continues down a path with a coach that has had challenges in improving special teams and overall performance regardless of the personnel. There are various players who have flourished under other systems and coaches who are on pace for career lows in production under Wilson.
So again, how is that plan good?? A work in progress usually has a goal and a direction. Sure, the goal is the Cup, but what is the direction??? Shuffle these players for those players and get the same result. Is that even a plan??
Beans, I know it would kill you to look at the Leafs objectively, but I put together a list of my thoughts and opinions. As I already stated, I think the Oilers are taking the better path to rebuild, however you can't count the Leafs rebuild out until its over. Also I have mention in other threads that the Leafs historically have wasted their first round picks on guys who never play in the NHL. With a history like this why would anyone try to do it through the draft.(for the Leafs organization, I mean)
Firstly, I don't think Feaster is too highly coveted either, but Calgary seemed to find what they were looking for in him.
Secondly, getting Phaneuf, Sjostrum, and Aulie for Satjan, Mayers, Hagman, and White. I agree Phaneuf is not playing to his capability. However Aulie is touted to be an amazing Defensive D-man prospect(similar to Schenn) and Sjostrum is actually injured right now, but he is one of our best penalty killers. The only one of these guys I really miss is White.(and he's not having a good season this year).
Also, I live in the GTA and I haven't heard anything about Giggy "WANTING OUT". If you are referring to him waiving his NTC/NMC, is this really the same thing?? Heatly "wanted out" of Ottawa. I think Giggy just understands you don't get something for nothing.
Thirdly, I agree that Khadri isn't looking very good at this point. But who does he have to play with?? Not to mention the ice time he was getting doesn't compare to any of the oilers prospects.
Armstrong pulls his weight IMO. The Leafs need a guy like this. They haven't had an instigator since Tucker left.(and we're still paying him...Thanks JFJ!)
And Komisarek is a proven player at the NHL level. But with missing most of last season with an injury, and the quality of play he has put forth this season, he is really not helping our cause.
Gustuvson was supposed to be one of the best Goalies in the Swedish Elite League, but perhaps he had more that one solid D-man in front of him. Not to mention the differences with the ice size and what have you. Even taking this into account though, he has not played as well as we were led to expect.(my fault for believing the Toronto Media.)
And they will have plenty of capspace next year to sign MacArthur.
As for letting Kaberle go...I don't entirely agree with Burke for doing this. But it brings me to my final rebuttal.
I believe the BIGGEST problem with this team is the Coach. Yes, I let it sit squarely on Wilson's shoulders. I don't think the players respect him. And nobody plays well for a coach they cant stand. Kaberle could absolutely be our best puck moving, accurate shooting D-man. There is no question. But he and Wilson despise each other.(even Kaberle's dad has said this to the media)
In conclusion, the Leafs have a better team than we see night to night. But we wont see a lot of games where they all "leave it all out on the ice" as there is no reason to do so. When the boys play poorly they get thrown under the bus. When they win, Wilson take the credit. Not to mention, how could you expect a guy like this to bring your rookies along at a positive rate? The plan has to be the same, but "a work in progress" means you are working toward improvement. Maybe the reason for lack of improvement has to do with lack of respect from management.
Golf Leafs Golf!
Peace and Respect |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 06:58:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
38 to 5 in favor of edmonton..... hmmm says something in this amazing large Leafs nation!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
Yes, it does say something - that Leafs nation is willing to look at things with perspective, despite being a fan of their team, and vote another team as being better in terms of the plan going forward.
The poll reflects pretty accurately, from my observations and guess, what the consensus would be from a panel of hockey experts and hockey people in general who are not a fan of either team. This says to me, that Leaf fans do not, in fact, wear blue-tinted glasses.
All that being said, I voted Leafs. And just because I voted that way, does not mean I necessarily have "drunk the kool-aid" that Burke is selling . . . I just strongly disagree with people overvaluing young, newly drafted forwards, and having no solid plan for the defence/goaltending positions. Also, my projections for players like Hall, Eberle and Paajarvi are probably different than the dreams of Oiler fans . . .
And to retort to Beans on his point about "The Leafs simply do not have players like this" in reference to Hall, Paajarvi and Eberle . . . sure they do. Kessel, Kulemin and Kadri. Two out of three are better than what the Oil have RIGHT NOW, and the third is taking longer to develop . . . but that's ok with me - there is no guarantee that despite Eberle's skill, he can handle the NHL - just too small, and the injuries are already happening.
I like the plan of building goalie/defence out better, rather than developing flashy, small offensive players.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 08:15:48
|
Well of course I am going to say something about this!!
Kessel = Penner (like it or not, production talks)
Kulemin is not as skilled as Hemsky, maybe more stable with injuries, but not as skilled. Not even close.
Kadri is smaller than Eberle(who won't stand up to the NHL game according to you), not as good as Hall, and not as good as Gagner.
This still leaves Paajarvi, Omark, Horcoff, Whitney, Foster, Cogliano, Smid, Peckham, and Brule as legitimate NHL players today. All but Horcoff are under the age of 30.
You can name 3 Leafs, I can name 3 current Oilers as good and 3 Oiler prospects to be better.
And I fail to understand this 'no goaltending plans' comments when comparing the two teams. Please tell me how Gustovsson has proven to be so much more effective than the Oilers current #1 prospect of Dubnyk??
There still is some Blue and White undertones to the comments, as much as they are trying to be hidden. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 16:15:06
|
Beans i don`t think too many leafs fans are exactly looking at the Monster as Toronto`s future net-minder anymore, i know i sure ain`t. Reimer ( hopefully ), J.Rynass and B.Schrivens are more likey sucessor`s.
As for team prospects, the majority of the leaf players playing right now are not much older than prospect age, so they`re there already. It`s the rest of the team that needs changing.
As for all these young players waiting in the wings on both teams, well only time will tell who will be the next boom or bust.
What is so special about S.Gagne, Cogl. and Bruile anyway ?? I`ve seen them play, good young players but nothing exactly to blow you away.........now Hall, thats a diffrent story. |
|
|
|
sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 17:40:48
|
burke can pick a good team, like he did in the olympics,however, he just made a bad trade which pretty much slowed down the leafs by 2 years
Go OILERS Go!!! |
|
|
|
OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 18:25:26
|
Building from the goaltender out is not realistic in today's NHL. Look at the goalies from the final four in last year's playoffs. T.O. pays more for their (as of yesterday 3) tenders than any team in the league! Top goalies in the league; Thomas, Miller, Lundquist, Rinne, Backstrom, Price. Which of these do you see winning the cup?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
Edited by - OILINONTARIO on 01/24/2011 18:27:12 |
|
|
|
sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 22:57:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans i would say that 75 % of the leafs core players, who they plan to build around and keep are between the ages of 20 - 26 years old. The leafs are also a very, very young team.
the leafs core is kessel phaneuf schenn grabovski and macarther
the oilers core is hall eberle paajarvi hemsky whitney petry peckham and the list goes on. Just because your young doesn't mean your future is good.
Go OILERS Go!!! |
|
|
|
Guest5806
( )
|
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 22:58:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
Building from the goaltender out is not realistic in today's NHL. Look at the goalies from the final four in last year's playoffs. T.O. pays more for their (as of yesterday 3) tenders than any team in the league! Top goalies in the league; Thomas, Miller, Lundquist, Rinne, Backstrom, Price. Which of these do you see winning the cup?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011.
that's what the preds do
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 09:11:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well of course I am going to say something about this!!
Kessel = Penner (like it or not, production talks)
Kulemin is not as skilled as Hemsky, maybe more stable with injuries, but not as skilled. Not even close.
Kadri is smaller than Eberle(who won't stand up to the NHL game according to you), not as good as Hall, and not as good as Gagner.
This still leaves Paajarvi, Omark, Horcoff, Whitney, Foster, Cogliano, Smid, Peckham, and Brule as legitimate NHL players today. All but Horcoff are under the age of 30.
You can name 3 Leafs, I can name 3 current Oilers as good and 3 Oiler prospects to be better.
And I fail to understand this 'no goaltending plans' comments when comparing the two teams. Please tell me how Gustovsson has proven to be so much more effective than the Oilers current #1 prospect of Dubnyk??
There still is some Blue and White undertones to the comments, as much as they are trying to be hidden.
Wow. All I can say is . . . wow.
Well, ALMOST all!
1) False Argument #1
You name three young rookies, and say the Leafs have no one compareable. Then out of nowhere, after my response has you bubbling at the mouth, you compare Penner to Kessel.
Hunh?!?
2) False Argument #2
You then go on to compare Hemsky to Kulemin . . . hunh?!? You are saying Hemsky is as young as Kulemin, and put him in the same category of youth building?!? Talk to Kulemin in three years, when he reaches his apex of development - THEN we can compare, maybe.
3) Incorrect Factual Information
Kadri (6' 188 lbs) is NOT smaller than Eberle (5'10", 185 lbs) . . . if anything, they are comparable weight (both have bulked up considerably before this year) by Nazem is taller.
4) More False Argumentation
You then go on to compare Kadri to whoever you think might stack up better than him, as if I am holding him up on this pedestal . . . uh, NEWSFLASH: I never compared Kadri to Hall, and Gagner was never in the discussion.
Brutal.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:22:44
|
Slozo, Eberle is a midget compared to NHL size players, every1 knows this. He has amazing skill and hopefully will have M. St. Louis`s luck when it comes to injuries. Eberle may be bigger than Theron Fleury but he is retired
One things for certain, when you are 5`9...5`10...in todays NHL you are very exposed to the average players elbow on head shots. The corners aren`t a very friendly place with those monster like D-men in todays game. Smaller players now seem to get their head squashed againist the boards these days by the opposing D-mans hip. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 10:42:17
|
Typical rebuttle from Slozo. Can't believe I would expect anything less. False arguments??
Let's clarify.
Penner = 390 games played, 0.58 PPG average, 0.30 GPG average.
Kessel = 340 games played, 0.63 PPG average, 0.33 GPG average.
Kessel has speed in spades over Penner. Penner has size in spades over Kessel.
Both are equally productive. How is that a false arguement. If you argue that Kessel is younger and has more potetial, than I would agree. However, until that potential is reached, Kessel is Dustin Penner with speed and youth. Dustin Penner is Kessel with size and experience. You can't tell me Kessel is a better player as he has not proven it.
Kadri, as listed on NHL.com today, is 72"(6 feet) and 188 lbs. Eberle is listed as the exact same height and 3 lbs lighter. How is it a false argument that they are the same size??
I initially argue with names like Hall, Eberle, and Pajaarvi. All 20 years old are less. You come back with Kessel and Kulemin to argue who are all 4-5 years older than the players I choose. Then you have the stones to stay that Hemsky, 3yrs the sr to Kulemin is not comparable??? Who is that greek dude again?? That's right, it's Hippocrates..................
Finally, the point I was making (which again was completely missed) is that the Oilers are stacked with potential talent. It's not just Eberle and Hall. It 3-4 of their sr players in Penner, Hemsky, Whitney, and Horcoff. They also have super potential in players like Hall, Eberle, Pajaarvi, Omark who are all 20 or less, and then there are players in the middle of that grou, between 20-25 like Gagner, Cogliano, Gilbert, Brule. The Leafs have some talent in the same areas as the Oilers with the massive difference in young talent.
I don't expect for a die hard Leaf fan to roll over and die, but c'mon. This is asinine.
|
|
|
|
Guest5806
( )
|
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 11:56:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans how can you say the players you listed are going to be better than Kadri ? no-one can tell this. If i remember correctly the Sedin twins were horrible the first 3 - 4 seasons they were in Vancouver...30 - 40 point seasons maybe...8 - 12 goals each maybe....but look at them now..
Kadri plays ( don`t really know ) 15 games maybe and doesn`t get a goal and suddenly he is the next Wade Belak or something, give the kid a break.
the oilers still have 3 elite prospects to toronto's one |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Edmonton vs, Toronto 
