| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SuperSakic |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 06:54:03
Pronger is not as good as everyone thinks he is....I think he is way over-hyped. Look at the results of the playoff games in which he was suspended. His team dominated without him in the lineup. And why is that? Not because the Ducks are just that good, but rather that he is a crappy-one-trick-pony that has a hard shot. He eats up so much ice-time and people are like "wow, he's a work-horse!". Give me a break! The reason his team does better when he's not there is because then the other defensemen get to play and they are more quicker and agile than he is. Not to mention better defensively! Pronger has always played alongside great defensemen so that his defensive ineptness is not so apparant. But when the team does better without him in the lineup, it justifies my theory that Pronger is a crappy-one-trick-pony with no defensive skills whatsoever. All he does is deliver cheapshots when he is trying to play "defense"....What do you all think? |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 21:33:17
quote:
Originally posted by manninm
FYI 4462 Pronger had 5 more points this year in 12 less games and had a +27 rating, good for tops on his team and top 15 in the league. Zubov was even and was tied for 13th on his team. Granted, Pronger plays on Anaheim, which helps, but I fail to see how Zubov was or is better than Pronger. Pronger's career PPG avg is 1.69, Zubov's is 1.38. Peak performance, Zubov had a 66 point season compared to Pronger's 62 point season. That season Pronger's plus minus was 52 compared to Zubov's 28.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden
stats central right here,,, i defencemans first job however is to prevent goals personaly a guy like souray is the worst case senerio for me i'll take a guy like dany markov before a high scoring d man,, and i think pronger does a exceedingly good job at both ends of the rink,,,, and thats what puts him as a top three d man in the league
Pasty |
| manninm |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 05:46:26
FYI 4462 Pronger had 5 more points this year in 12 less games and had a +27 rating, good for tops on his team and top 15 in the league. Zubov was even and was tied for 13th on his team. Granted, Pronger plays on Anaheim, which helps, but I fail to see how Zubov was or is better than Pronger. Pronger's career PPG avg is 1.69, Zubov's is 1.38. Peak performance, Zubov had a 66 point season compared to Pronger's 62 point season. That season Pronger's plus minus was 52 compared to Zubov's 28.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
| Guest4462 |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 10:54:19
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
pronger is deffinetly the 3rd best d man in the league,, i mean its ridculous to even argue that ,, hes proven himself far more then zubov boyle campbell and any others mentioned there are only and only 2 d man better than pronger today,, scotty and lidstrom period,,,,, i dont like pronger at all but i won't kid myself just cuz of my lack respect for him,,, and the next person whos says he just big,,,, well thats part of what makes him good,,,, thats like when people say vancover didn't deserve to make it as far as they did it was all roberto but the goalies a part of the team you can;t blame them for having a good goalie same as you can't blame pronger for being 6.6 p.s last year when lidstrom won the norris,,, if you went by stats it should have been dion he exceeded all the bars set by lidstrom they just didn;t give it to him cuz hes a rook!
Pasty
We're all allowed our opinions. :) I have my opinion based on what I see him do, what I see him not do, and what strengths and weaknesses he has compared to other defensemen. You can think he's the 3rd best, but I strongly put him further down the list. I stand by my statement that Zubov is a better dman now, and a *much* better dman in his younger years. There is no argument here that Chris is a fantastic player, that's not what is being debated. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 08:51:03
pronger is deffinetly the 3rd best d man in the league,, i mean its ridculous to even argue that ,, hes proven himself far more then zubov boyle campbell and any others mentioned there are only and only 2 d man better than pronger today,, scotty and lidstrom period,,,,, i dont like pronger at all but i won't kid myself just cuz of my lack respect for him,,, and the next person whos says he just big,,,, well thats part of what makes him good,,,, thats like when people say vancover didn't deserve to make it as far as they did it was all roberto but the goalies a part of the team you can;t blame them for having a good goalie same as you can't blame pronger for being 6.6 p.s last year when lidstrom won the norris,,, if you went by stats it should have been dion he exceeded all the bars set by lidstrom they just didn;t give it to him cuz hes a rook!
Pasty |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 15:22:28
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4666
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
...At least that's what the homers are hoping for.. eh Leigh? 
hahaha! you go t that right TCT! 
Technically though I'm not a homer...never lived in Calgary or Alberta.  How the heck did I become a flames fan again???
Probably dropped on your head as a child
Haha! thanks guest 4666. notice the "666" in your guest handle? That explains the mean streak!  |
| Guest4666 |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 14:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
...At least that's what the homers are hoping for.. eh Leigh?
hahaha! you go t that right TCT!
Technically though I'm not a homer...never lived in Calgary or Alberta. How the heck did I become a flames fan again???
Probably dropped on your head as a child |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 12:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
...At least that's what the homers are hoping for.. eh Leigh?
hahaha! you go t that right TCT!
Technically though I'm not a homer...never lived in Calgary or Alberta. How the heck did I become a flames fan again??? |
| tctitans |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 11:29:19
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0944
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
OK I have a man-crush on Dion. But you've convinced me. Not in top 5. Bump him and replace with Bouwmeester.
Phaneuf will be a top 5 d-man within 5 years, but not today. Too many veterans to choose from for this short list.
At least that's what the homers are hoping for.. eh Leigh? |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0944
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
OK I have a man-crush on Dion. But you've convinced me. Not in top 5. Bump him and replace with Bouwmeester.
Phaneuf will be a top 5 d-man within 5 years, but not today. Too many veterans to choose from for this short list. |
| BigShow |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:10:33
Pronger may be a little over rated, but he is still an elite dman.
My top 5:
1. Lidstrom
2. Niedermeyer
3. Boyle
4. Pronger
5. Zubov |
| SuperSakic |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 06:57:04
Here's my top 5 picks:
1. Niedermayer - 4 stanleys, what can you say?
2. Lidstrom - don't need to say why
4. Boyle - awesome puck movement and a good eye for the game
3. Zubov - great movement of the puck and great defensively
4. Campbell (Brian) - he's fun to watch (love his spin-o-rama move)
5. Visnovsky - very underrated (no one seems to know who he is, but he got more goals than Pronger in the regular season) He seems to be a consistent point getter |
| manninm |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 05:40:02
I think we're forgetting about somebody here....
WADE BELAK!!!
Just kidding. I'm a little biased, and I'm not saying he's top 5, but Brian Campbell is young and he's quite the package. I don't think I've ever seen him get beat 1-1. And he QB's the power play, has speed and that spinorama move that despite how many times you've seen it you still get fooled by it.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
| Guest0944 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 18:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
OK I have a man-crush on Dion. But you've convinced me. Not in top 5. Bump him and replace with Bouwmeester. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 18:21:37
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8372
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
Souray can't hit like Dion nor is he as positionally sound. Souray is not as fast as Dion. Souray is not the guy you send out to protect a one goal lead for Montreal. That's Markov.
I think Phaneuf is positionally sound, fast and intimidating. He is as good at shutting the offense down as he is capable of taking them down. He's the guy you want out there for the one goal leads or deficits.
Sounds like top 5 to me.
mike komisarek is the guy the canadiens send out to protect a lead!!
Pasty |
| tctitans |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 17:54:08
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Completely agree. Phaneuf has no right being close to this list. Perhaps in 5+ years if he can learn the defensive side of the game better, but certainly not now. |
| manninm |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:13:38
I agree. I have a man-crush on Dion for the physical game he plays. However, he still has some maturing to do as a d-man. He's not top 5 right now. Perhaps in a year or two he will be, but not now.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:55:29
See, I think you might be judging with your heart a little on this one. Phaneuf was not the best shut down d-man for Calgary. That would go to Regher or Hamerlik. Looking at Hamerlik and Phaneuf who played together often, Hamerlik's +/- was double Phaneuf's. Dion lead Calgary's defensemen offensively, but not defensively. I also think his defensive abilities are greatly enhanced by playing with Hamerlik who is a very sound defensive player and can cover up many mistakes.
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| Guest8372 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:38:11
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
Souray can't hit like Dion nor is he as positionally sound. Souray is not as fast as Dion. Souray is not the guy you send out to protect a one goal lead for Montreal. That's Markov.
I think Phaneuf is positionally sound, fast and intimidating. He is as good at shutting the offense down as he is capable of taking them down. He's the guy you want out there for the one goal leads or deficits.
Sounds like top 5 to me. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:14:59
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| Guest8372 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:58:57
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Beans15[i]
Just to decide if people think the is over rated, who would you put ahead of him? Here is my list of top 5 d-men today.
1) Lidstrom
2) Neidermayer
3) Pronger
4) Chara
5) Boyle
Top 5:
Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Pronger
Phaneuf
Chara
Honourable mentions:
Bouwmeester
Pitkanen
Zidlicky
Visnovski
Beauchemin |
| tctitans |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:20:37
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I would take Zubov over Pronger in a heartbeat. Now there's a guy (Zubov) who I think is highly underrated!
Perosnally, i'm not sure how Poti got into this conversation of great Dmen. ;)
I think it's fantastic you and I have agreed on something. 
Alright Willus!! Let's go for a beer and celebrate! |
| willus3 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I would take Zubov over Pronger in a heartbeat. Now there's a guy (Zubov) who I think is highly underrated!
Perosnally, i'm not sure how Poti got into this conversation of great Dmen. ;)
I think it's fantastic you and I have agreed on something.
As for Poti, I only said he was undervalued. Not great.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| tctitans |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:11:08
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I would take Zubov over Pronger in a heartbeat. Now there's a guy (Zubov) who I think is highly underrated!
Perosnally, i'm not sure how Poti got into this conversation of great Dmen. ;)
|
| tctitans |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:09:05
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
I think people are confusing their "loss of respect" for him with thinking he is a bad d-man. I think people are letting their emotion fog their judgement. Hey it's a natural reaction to try to distance yourself from the less popular. But really, let's face it, the guy is phenomenal. His reach is obvious and is his most potent weapon next to his rocket of a shot. He's a monsterous man who hits like a freight train. He's been putting up incredible numbers his whole career and is almost always a significant plus player. He's brought every club he has played for to the finals. And he has represented Canada at every level. The most important people in hockey think he is worthy of playing at the biggest competitions. He plays in almost every clutch situation (when he is not suspended - haha!) The reason the Ducks are even in the finals this year is because of Neidermayer and Pronger. One of those guys was on the ice at all times this year and every team in the NHL wishes they could have that! Pronger is an ELITE player. An elite player with a mean streak.
I completely disagree. I have thought he was overrated long before the several cited 'loss of respect type' incidents. I think Pronger showed his true value to the Ducks in the 2 games that he was suspended from could be considered the Ducks 2 strongest of the playoffs. I'm not saying he's a bad player, not even an average player. He's a great defenseman and any team would be happy to have him, however, he's is *not* an elite defenseman and shouldnt be categorized with Lidstrom or Niedermayer. |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:56:46
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Did I mention that Pronger is also a Stanley Cup Champion!
So is Dipenta. 
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Smart ass! |
| willus3 |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 06:36:40
A little piece of trivia. Pronger one his Hart trophy by one vote over Jagr.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| willus3 |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 20:14:25
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Did I mention that Pronger is also a Stanley Cup Champion!
So is Dipenta.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 19:46:07
Did I mention that Pronger is also a Stanley Cup Champion! |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 17:23:20
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I sure would.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I'm not sure right now. Like I said, I need to watch him more closely and see how it is that he gets the results that he does.
I'm not saying Poti is elite but I do think he is under valued.
Zubov is rock solid. Steadily goes about his business.
Kaberle has fantastic skills.
And Jovanovski's name is too hard to spell. I had it wrong earlier too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Off-topic sorry ----- Willus, having lived in Vancouver for the last 8 years and watching him play, I have to say that Jovo is very overrated in my opinion and is an incredible defensive liabilty. He is strong, has great speed and can score a few goals but I think vancouver fans feared that he was going to pinch and give up a goal at any moment. If he can fix that part of his game then he is a solid d-man (he's also got one hell of a knock-out punch!) |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 14:08:54
As an Oilers' fan, I was absolutely enthralled with Pronger's play in last years' playoff. Obviously, my opinion of him is somewhat skewed due to the circumstances surrounding his leaving Edmonton, but it seems to me as though his role has changed since he joined this Anaheim team. I'd hate to say that he has become a thug by design, but, as was stated earlier in this thread, the Ducks could have waddled through the first three rounds quite handily without his talents, both offensive and defensive. His mauling of Holmstrom actually proved to be quite an effective vehicle as it neutralized him, somewhat. McCammond? Well, maybe it sent some kind of message, but all in all, what I saw in him in last years' playoff has been tainted. An absolute disgrace for a guy who could have finished out his career with respectability. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 13:14:33
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I sure would.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I'm not sure right now. Like I said, I need to watch him more closely and see how it is that he gets the results that he does.
I'm not saying Poti is elite but I do think he is under valued.
Zubov is rock solid. Steadily goes about his business.
Kaberle has fantastic skills.
And Jovanovski's name is too hard to spell. I had it wrong earlier too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:53:05
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I sure would.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| willus3 |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:11:07
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
I think people are confusing their "loss of respect" for him with thinking he is a bad d-man. I think people are letting their emotion fog their judgement.
Not at all. I remember thinking the same thing last year when he was with Edmonton.
Maybe I'm just having a hard time getting past the fact that he looks completely ridiculous on skates and then when he actually moves he looks even worse.
It has to be attributed to his reach. His height combined with the length of his stick must give him about a foot of reach advantage on the average player.
I have to say though that it does appear that he is having trouble adapting to the new NHL. Much like Derrien Hatcher is completely useless now because he just can't keep up.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| willus3 |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:55:25
Top 5 is a good question. I only see a couple guys who really stand out. That's Lidstrom and Niedermeyer. A few that are overlooked I think are Kaberle, Jovanoski, Zubov and Poti. I've always liked watching Zhitnik too.There are quite a few whose playing I like and I think will be top tier for many years.
Corvo
Andrew Ference
Boyle
Carle
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:28:53
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
...The reason the Ducks are even in the finals this year is because of Neidermayer and Pronger. One of those guys was on the ice at all times this year...
To be clear I think Anaheim is a well rounded team who would make it to the 2nd or maybe 3rd round even without Pronger. |
| leigh |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:25:12
I think people are confusing their "loss of respect" for him with thinking he is a bad d-man. I think people are letting their emotion fog their judgement. Hey it's a natural reaction to try to distance yourself from the less popular. But really, let's face it, the guy is phenomenal. His reach is obvious and is his most potent weapon next to his rocket of a shot. He's a monsterous man who hits like a freight train. He's been putting up incredible numbers his whole career and is almost always a significant plus player. He's brought every club he has played for to the finals. And he has represented Canada at every level. The most important people in hockey think he is worthy of playing at the biggest competitions. He plays in almost every clutch situation (when he is not suspended - haha!) The reason the Ducks are even in the finals this year is because of Neidermayer and Pronger. One of those guys was on the ice at all times this year and every team in the NHL wishes they could have that! Pronger is an ELITE player. An elite player with a mean streak. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:42:25
I just don't see how he is overrated. Definately not the quickest foot speed in the game, but the guy doesn't make mistakes with the puck. He holds his own in all areas of the ice, and I don't think there is a better breakout passer in the league. He can come from behind his net, make one stride and go tape to tape with a forward on the other blue line.
Does anyone disagree that he is not a top 5 defenseman in the league??
Just to decide if people think the is over rated, who would you put ahead of him? Here is my list of top 5 d-men today.
1) Lidstrom
2) Neidermayer
3) Pronger
4) Chara
5) Boyle
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| tctitans |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:20:57
To me it's pretty clear that Pronger is still a great defenseman, but he isnt the same player he used to be and I agree that at this point in time he's quite overrated. |
| SuperSakic |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 06:29:08
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I was actually going to post something very similar.
I am of the opinion that Pronger is completely overrated. I can't tell you exactly why I think this yet, but whenever I watch him play I'm not seeing it. In fact I see al ot of mistakes every game from him. I've never seen a defenseman stand as still as he does either. He looks completely lost at times.
He uses his reach to full advantage, there is no doubt there.
I haven't yet figured out how he gets the results he does, but I will. I need to watch him a little more.
His 7 suspensions aren't helping him getting my respect either.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
I totally agree....it was just a feeling for me. Whenever I saw him play I just would not see the "star quality" show through which always gave me a sense that he was overrated. Even in the series against Minnesota I saw guys speed right around him when I thought "what the hell was that? Why does everyone think he's so great?". Whenever you watch a game with him playing you don't ever hear the commentators say "that was a great DEFENSIVE play by Pronger....". All you hear is "he's great on the powerplay".....another time that I saw how useless he was defensively was the World Cup (or was the olympics?), in which Canada lost. The ice surface was just too big for his style of play. He just looked like a big slug out there! |
| Canucks Man |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 22:44:06
I think he is a little overrated but still one of the top dmen in the game and he deserves to be in the running for the norris. The only thing I can say about prongers game that I dont like is he doesnt skate the greatest but why need to skate like niedermeyer when you can reach as far as he does and get the puck. I dont like him as a person, Cheating on his wife, not wanting to be in canada and his couple of dirty plays in this playoffs, but to say he sucks would be like saying Crosby sucks, or Gretzky sucked, its just not true.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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