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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2007 : 06:54:03
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Pronger is not as good as everyone thinks he is....I think he is way over-hyped. Look at the results of the playoff games in which he was suspended. His team dominated without him in the lineup. And why is that? Not because the Ducks are just that good, but rather that he is a crappy-one-trick-pony that has a hard shot. He eats up so much ice-time and people are like "wow, he's a work-horse!". Give me a break! The reason his team does better when he's not there is because then the other defensemen get to play and they are more quicker and agile than he is. Not to mention better defensively! Pronger has always played alongside great defensemen so that his defensive ineptness is not so apparant. But when the team does better without him in the lineup, it justifies my theory that Pronger is a crappy-one-trick-pony with no defensive skills whatsoever. All he does is deliver cheapshots when he is trying to play "defense"....What do you all think?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 06:58:00
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I think nothing could be further from the truth. I have lost some respect for Pronger with his recent suspensions, however he is one of the top 5 defensemen in the league. He took a fairly weak defensive Edmonton team to the finals last year and he did the same in St. Louis. He played along side of MacInnis for year, who is not as good defensively and was used primarily as an offensive threat. Pronger's defensive game is strong in all aspects other than foot speed, which his size and reach overcome. Not as good as everyone thinks?? He is just as good as everyone thinks. There is not a GM in the league that wouldn't want him in their blue line.
He the only defenseman in the past 25+ years to win the Hart Trophy and he has been a Norris caliber player almost every year. You think that is just a fluke???
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 06/05/2007 06:59:14 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I think nothing could be further from the truth. I have lost some respect for Pronger with his recent suspensions, however he is one of the top 5 defensemen in the league. He took a fairly weak defensive Edmonton team to the finals last year and he did the same in St. Louis. He played along side of MacInnis for year, who is not as good defensively and was used primarily as an offensive threat. Pronger's defensive game is strong in all aspects other than foot speed, which his size and reach overcome. Not as good as everyone thinks?? He is just as good as everyone thinks. There is not a GM in the league that wouldn't want him in their blue line.
He the only defenseman in the past 25+ years to win the Hart Trophy and he has been a Norris caliber player almost every year. You think that is just a fluke???
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Bingo bango dodge durango
you can;t say that about a guy like chris pronger hes is too proven to take this kind of argument even remotly seriously...
Pasty |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 15:23:44
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Pronger has the wing span of a condor says Jim Hughson But how many times do you hear in a game''And he couldn't get by Pronger'' many times. He plays good offesiveley with his shot and deffeceviley he is always a plus player. What's so bad about him, yeah he does play aggresive and a little dirty but that's his game. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 15:28:12
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Pronger took two teams to the cup in two years and is a Norris calibre player. I think that Pronger has lost respect this year for his suspensions but he is a premier player in the NHL. He has played with great defenceman because he IS great. I see no arguments against him.
Second place is only first place of the losers. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 15:43:47
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I was actually going to post something very similar.
I am of the opinion that Pronger is completely overrated. I can't tell you exactly why I think this yet, but whenever I watch him play I'm not seeing it. In fact I see al ot of mistakes every game from him. I've never seen a defenseman stand as still as he does either. He looks completely lost at times.
He uses his reach to full advantage, there is no doubt there.
I haven't yet figured out how he gets the results he does, but I will. I need to watch him a little more.
His 7 suspensions aren't helping him getting my respect either.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 16:42:02
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Maybe slightly overrated but still a great defenseman in my book.
The main thing I want to say though is that just because the Ducks can win without Pronger does not necessarily lend support to the "overrated" argument. Remember, in 2001 the Avs won the Cup without a guy named Peter Forsberg (his spleen or something exploded after a game in the second round as I recall). Also, Team Canada won in '72 without Bobby Orr. Does that mean Orr is overrated? |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:04:16
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Most of my friends say that Pronger got lucky, thats why he made finals twice in a row, but I think that he was the one who carried them there, although Anaheim has some great players, other than him unlike edmonton, so yeah hes not overrated
what do Calgary and a tea bag have in common- they're both only good for one cup |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 22:44:06
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I think he is a little overrated but still one of the top dmen in the game and he deserves to be in the running for the norris. The only thing I can say about prongers game that I dont like is he doesnt skate the greatest but why need to skate like niedermeyer when you can reach as far as he does and get the puck. I dont like him as a person, Cheating on his wife, not wanting to be in canada and his couple of dirty plays in this playoffs, but to say he sucks would be like saying Crosby sucks, or Gretzky sucked, its just not true.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 06:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I was actually going to post something very similar.
I am of the opinion that Pronger is completely overrated. I can't tell you exactly why I think this yet, but whenever I watch him play I'm not seeing it. In fact I see al ot of mistakes every game from him. I've never seen a defenseman stand as still as he does either. He looks completely lost at times.
He uses his reach to full advantage, there is no doubt there.
I haven't yet figured out how he gets the results he does, but I will. I need to watch him a little more.
His 7 suspensions aren't helping him getting my respect either.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
I totally agree....it was just a feeling for me. Whenever I saw him play I just would not see the "star quality" show through which always gave me a sense that he was overrated. Even in the series against Minnesota I saw guys speed right around him when I thought "what the hell was that? Why does everyone think he's so great?". Whenever you watch a game with him playing you don't ever hear the commentators say "that was a great DEFENSIVE play by Pronger....". All you hear is "he's great on the powerplay".....another time that I saw how useless he was defensively was the World Cup (or was the olympics?), in which Canada lost. The ice surface was just too big for his style of play. He just looked like a big slug out there! |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:20:57
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| To me it's pretty clear that Pronger is still a great defenseman, but he isnt the same player he used to be and I agree that at this point in time he's quite overrated. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 10:42:25
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I just don't see how he is overrated. Definately not the quickest foot speed in the game, but the guy doesn't make mistakes with the puck. He holds his own in all areas of the ice, and I don't think there is a better breakout passer in the league. He can come from behind his net, make one stride and go tape to tape with a forward on the other blue line.
Does anyone disagree that he is not a top 5 defenseman in the league??
Just to decide if people think the is over rated, who would you put ahead of him? Here is my list of top 5 d-men today.
1) Lidstrom
2) Neidermayer
3) Pronger
4) Chara
5) Boyle
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:25:12
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| I think people are confusing their "loss of respect" for him with thinking he is a bad d-man. I think people are letting their emotion fog their judgement. Hey it's a natural reaction to try to distance yourself from the less popular. But really, let's face it, the guy is phenomenal. His reach is obvious and is his most potent weapon next to his rocket of a shot. He's a monsterous man who hits like a freight train. He's been putting up incredible numbers his whole career and is almost always a significant plus player. He's brought every club he has played for to the finals. And he has represented Canada at every level. The most important people in hockey think he is worthy of playing at the biggest competitions. He plays in almost every clutch situation (when he is not suspended - haha!) The reason the Ducks are even in the finals this year is because of Neidermayer and Pronger. One of those guys was on the ice at all times this year and every team in the NHL wishes they could have that! Pronger is an ELITE player. An elite player with a mean streak. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
...The reason the Ducks are even in the finals this year is because of Neidermayer and Pronger. One of those guys was on the ice at all times this year...
To be clear I think Anaheim is a well rounded team who would make it to the 2nd or maybe 3rd round even without Pronger. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:55:25
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Top 5 is a good question. I only see a couple guys who really stand out. That's Lidstrom and Niedermeyer. A few that are overlooked I think are Kaberle, Jovanoski, Zubov and Poti. I've always liked watching Zhitnik too.There are quite a few whose playing I like and I think will be top tier for many years.
Corvo
Andrew Ference
Boyle
Carle
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
I think people are confusing their "loss of respect" for him with thinking he is a bad d-man. I think people are letting their emotion fog their judgement.
Not at all. I remember thinking the same thing last year when he was with Edmonton.
Maybe I'm just having a hard time getting past the fact that he looks completely ridiculous on skates and then when he actually moves he looks even worse.
It has to be attributed to his reach. His height combined with the length of his stick must give him about a foot of reach advantage on the average player.
I have to say though that it does appear that he is having trouble adapting to the new NHL. Much like Derrien Hatcher is completely useless now because he just can't keep up.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 12:53:05
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Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I sure would.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 13:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I sure would.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I'm not sure right now. Like I said, I need to watch him more closely and see how it is that he gets the results that he does.
I'm not saying Poti is elite but I do think he is under valued.
Zubov is rock solid. Steadily goes about his business.
Kaberle has fantastic skills.
And Jovanovski's name is too hard to spell. I had it wrong earlier too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 14:08:54
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| As an Oilers' fan, I was absolutely enthralled with Pronger's play in last years' playoff. Obviously, my opinion of him is somewhat skewed due to the circumstances surrounding his leaving Edmonton, but it seems to me as though his role has changed since he joined this Anaheim team. I'd hate to say that he has become a thug by design, but, as was stated earlier in this thread, the Ducks could have waddled through the first three rounds quite handily without his talents, both offensive and defensive. His mauling of Holmstrom actually proved to be quite an effective vehicle as it neutralized him, somewhat. McCammond? Well, maybe it sent some kind of message, but all in all, what I saw in him in last years' playoff has been tainted. An absolute disgrace for a guy who could have finished out his career with respectability. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 17:23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I sure would.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I'm not sure right now. Like I said, I need to watch him more closely and see how it is that he gets the results that he does.
I'm not saying Poti is elite but I do think he is under valued.
Zubov is rock solid. Steadily goes about his business.
Kaberle has fantastic skills.
And Jovanovski's name is too hard to spell. I had it wrong earlier too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Off-topic sorry ----- Willus, having lived in Vancouver for the last 8 years and watching him play, I have to say that Jovo is very overrated in my opinion and is an incredible defensive liabilty. He is strong, has great speed and can score a few goals but I think vancouver fans feared that he was going to pinch and give up a goal at any moment. If he can fix that part of his game then he is a solid d-man (he's also got one hell of a knock-out punch!) |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 19:46:07
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| Did I mention that Pronger is also a Stanley Cup Champion! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 20:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Did I mention that Pronger is also a Stanley Cup Champion!
So is Dipenta.  
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 06:36:40
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A little piece of trivia. Pronger one his Hart trophy by one vote over Jagr.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Did I mention that Pronger is also a Stanley Cup Champion!
So is Dipenta.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Smart ass!  |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
I think people are confusing their "loss of respect" for him with thinking he is a bad d-man. I think people are letting their emotion fog their judgement. Hey it's a natural reaction to try to distance yourself from the less popular. But really, let's face it, the guy is phenomenal. His reach is obvious and is his most potent weapon next to his rocket of a shot. He's a monsterous man who hits like a freight train. He's been putting up incredible numbers his whole career and is almost always a significant plus player. He's brought every club he has played for to the finals. And he has represented Canada at every level. The most important people in hockey think he is worthy of playing at the biggest competitions. He plays in almost every clutch situation (when he is not suspended - haha!) The reason the Ducks are even in the finals this year is because of Neidermayer and Pronger. One of those guys was on the ice at all times this year and every team in the NHL wishes they could have that! Pronger is an ELITE player. An elite player with a mean streak.
I completely disagree. I have thought he was overrated long before the several cited 'loss of respect type' incidents. I think Pronger showed his true value to the Ducks in the 2 games that he was suspended from could be considered the Ducks 2 strongest of the playoffs. I'm not saying he's a bad player, not even an average player. He's a great defenseman and any team would be happy to have him, however, he's is *not* an elite defenseman and shouldnt be categorized with Lidstrom or Niedermayer. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I would take Zubov over Pronger in a heartbeat. Now there's a guy (Zubov) who I think is highly underrated!
Perosnally, i'm not sure how Poti got into this conversation of great Dmen. ;)
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I would take Zubov over Pronger in a heartbeat. Now there's a guy (Zubov) who I think is highly underrated!
Perosnally, i'm not sure how Poti got into this conversation of great Dmen. ;)
I think it's fantastic you and I have agreed on something. 
As for Poti, I only said he was undervalued. Not great.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:20:37
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, would you not put Pronger ahead of Zubov, Poti(wow, I don't consider him elite at all!), Kaberle and Jovonoski??
I would take Zubov over Pronger in a heartbeat. Now there's a guy (Zubov) who I think is highly underrated!
Perosnally, i'm not sure how Poti got into this conversation of great Dmen. ;)
I think it's fantastic you and I have agreed on something.
Alright Willus!! Let's go for a beer and celebrate! |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 06/07/2007 : 11:58:57
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Beans15[i]
Just to decide if people think the is over rated, who would you put ahead of him? Here is my list of top 5 d-men today.
1) Lidstrom
2) Neidermayer
3) Pronger
4) Chara
5) Boyle
Top 5:
Lidstrom
Niedermayer
Pronger
Phaneuf
Chara
Honourable mentions:
Bouwmeester
Pitkanen
Zidlicky
Visnovski
Beauchemin |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:14:59
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To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 06/07/2007 : 12:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
Souray can't hit like Dion nor is he as positionally sound. Souray is not as fast as Dion. Souray is not the guy you send out to protect a one goal lead for Montreal. That's Markov.
I think Phaneuf is positionally sound, fast and intimidating. He is as good at shutting the offense down as he is capable of taking them down. He's the guy you want out there for the one goal leads or deficits.
Sounds like top 5 to me. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 13:55:29
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See, I think you might be judging with your heart a little on this one. Phaneuf was not the best shut down d-man for Calgary. That would go to Regher or Hamerlik. Looking at Hamerlik and Phaneuf who played together often, Hamerlik's +/- was double Phaneuf's. Dion lead Calgary's defensemen offensively, but not defensively. I also think his defensive abilities are greatly enhanced by playing with Hamerlik who is a very sound defensive player and can cover up many mistakes.
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:13:38
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I agree. I have a man-crush on Dion for the physical game he plays. However, he still has some maturing to do as a d-man. He's not top 5 right now. Perhaps in a year or two he will be, but not now.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 17:54:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Completely agree. Phaneuf has no right being close to this list. Perhaps in 5+ years if he can learn the defensive side of the game better, but certainly not now. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 18:21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8372
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
To put Phaneuf in a top 5 list is criminal in my mind. Because the guy can hit and has a hard shot does not make him a good defenseman. For that matter, if that is the measurement, Souray would be the best in the league.
Souray can't hit like Dion nor is he as positionally sound. Souray is not as fast as Dion. Souray is not the guy you send out to protect a one goal lead for Montreal. That's Markov.
I think Phaneuf is positionally sound, fast and intimidating. He is as good at shutting the offense down as he is capable of taking them down. He's the guy you want out there for the one goal leads or deficits.
Sounds like top 5 to me.
mike komisarek is the guy the canadiens send out to protect a lead!!
Pasty |
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Guest0944
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Posted - 06/07/2007 : 18:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
OK I have a man-crush on Dion. But you've convinced me. Not in top 5. Bump him and replace with Bouwmeester. |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 05:40:02
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I think we're forgetting about somebody here....
WADE BELAK!!!
Just kidding. I'm a little biased, and I'm not saying he's top 5, but Brian Campbell is young and he's quite the package. I don't think I've ever seen him get beat 1-1. And he QB's the power play, has speed and that spinorama move that despite how many times you've seen it you still get fooled by it.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 06:57:04
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Here's my top 5 picks:
1. Niedermayer - 4 stanleys, what can you say?
2. Lidstrom - don't need to say why
4. Boyle - awesome puck movement and a good eye for the game
3. Zubov - great movement of the puck and great defensively
4. Campbell (Brian) - he's fun to watch (love his spin-o-rama move)
5. Visnovsky - very underrated (no one seems to know who he is, but he got more goals than Pronger in the regular season) He seems to be a consistent point getter |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:10:33
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Pronger may be a little over rated, but he is still an elite dman.
My top 5:
1. Lidstrom
2. Niedermeyer
3. Boyle
4. Pronger
5. Zubov |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0944
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
OK I have a man-crush on Dion. But you've convinced me. Not in top 5. Bump him and replace with Bouwmeester.
Phaneuf will be a top 5 d-man within 5 years, but not today. Too many veterans to choose from for this short list. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 11:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0944
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I do like Phaneuf, don't get me wrong. But he is not a top 5 in the league player in my opinion.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
OK I have a man-crush on Dion. But you've convinced me. Not in top 5. Bump him and replace with Bouwmeester.
Phaneuf will be a top 5 d-man within 5 years, but not today. Too many veterans to choose from for this short list.
At least that's what the homers are hoping for.. eh Leigh? |
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Topic |
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Pronger is not as good as everyone thinks he is... 
