| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PuckNuts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 10:06:44
Below is a list of the top 15 point getters in the past ten seasons. (1996-97 to 2006-07)
If you see some one that you think should be up there post his name...
Player Games Goals Assists Points P/Game
Jaromir Jagr 750 402 588 990 1.32
Joe Sakic… 729 325 518 843 1.16
Teemu Selanne 782 377 416 793 1.01
Mats Sundin 784 332 447 779 0.99
D Alfredsson 783 291 468 759 0.97
Paul Kariya 692 298 421 719 1.04
Mike Modano 737 286 428 714 0.97
Peter Forsberg 568 203 502 705 1.24
Mark Recchi 792 257 441 698 0.88
Markus Naslund 792 318 380 698 0.88
B Shanahan 785 339 357 696 0.89
Jarome Iginla 778 324 340 664 0.85
Doug Weight 719 174 474 648 0.90
Keith Tkachuk 668 329 308 637 0.95
Alexei Yashin 674 271 348 619 0.92
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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| 34 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 16:52:05
In all honesty, if Jagr wore the red leaf, I'd probably say he's misunderstood and moody just because he wants to win so badly.
With that admission, I will add that there have been very few Canadian players of that stature who have been problematic to coaches or organizations. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 14:42:28
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
I just thought I'd mention this...less than five minutes ago, ex-GM Mike Milbury called Jagr a moody coach-killer who quits on plays when things are not going his way. This was on NESN during the first intermission of the NYR - Bruins game.
Now granted, Milbury is not an all-time great GM, but it proves my point earlier.
Maybe I do know a thing or two, willus.
You got me thinking, do you ever remember hearing what Scotty Bowman thought about Jagr? Kinda curious to know hat he thinks of him.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 14:30:53
I would take Mibury's word about the same as I would trust Al Eagleson. Milbury is on TV for the shock value more than his hockey knowledge in my opinion.
Hey Fly, you have said it yourself. You are like Cherry without a loud coat.
How would you feel about Jagr if he wore a Red Maple Leaf??
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 14:16:28
It's all good. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 14:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Joe Sakic was a prolific scorer on the Nordiques when the only thing they were winning was the chance to draft first overall every year.
And willus, as for the savant comment, why is it such a crime to say I know a lot about hockey? Are we communists, where everyone has to have the same level of knowledge and insight? That I am neck deep in every aspect of the game is not something I'm bragging about, it's just who I am. I don't get how that puts a target on my back (a GM poll? savant?).
Fly
It was all in jest. No intent to injure there. It's actually a bit of a compliment.
Even without posting your credentials It's obvious you love hockey and you are definitely knowledgable. I quite enjoy your posts and quite often we agree.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 13:50:59
I just thought I'd mention this...less than five minutes ago, ex-GM Mike Milbury called Jagr a moody coach-killer who quits on plays when things are not going his way. This was on NESN during the first intermission of the NYR - Bruins game.
Now granted, Milbury is not an all-time great GM, but it proves my point earlier.
Maybe I do know a thing or two, willus. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 06:09:08
Nux Fan, as a newer member, please take a minutes to look at the three threads below.
Personally, I don't care if you call me an idiot. I've been called worse by better. But, the rules are the rules.
Please keep the posts about the opinions and not the people with this opinions.
Thanks, and welcome!
http://pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2160
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=609
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=608
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 22:37:34
quote:
Originally posted by nux_fan
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I don't really want to dog Sakic, because I think he's amazing. But I think he's got a thing for Sweds!
He had an amazing 2nd year that I will give him all the credit in the world and last year he did most of it on his own. But the rest of his best seasons have a Swedish Flavour. Either Sundin or Forsberg.
Granted, Jagr's best seasons had a French Canadian flavour.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
anyone who can't see that Sakic makes other great and doesnt need any help is an idiot. Open thy eyes and thee will be enlightened.
I'd rather disagree with someone who respectfully explains their opinion than be on the side of someone who uses name-calling in order to try and prove a point.
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| nux_fan |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 21:43:14
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I don't really want to dog Sakic, because I think he's amazing. But I think he's got a thing for Sweds!
He had an amazing 2nd year that I will give him all the credit in the world and last year he did most of it on his own. But the rest of his best seasons have a Swedish Flavour. Either Sundin or Forsberg.
Granted, Jagr's best seasons had a French Canadian flavour.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997.
anyone who can't see that Sakic makes other great and doesnt need any help is an idiot. Open thy eyes and thee will be enlightened. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 20:44:23
I guess I just have to admit it, I have a problem with Jagr personally. I won't argue the guy is an all-time talent, and has scored some goals that will be etched in my memory forever. I just don't like the guy. I don't like his stupid gloves-off celebrations, his streaks of laziness, his attitude with certain coaches and systems. With that said, if a Canadian does the same thing, I'm easier on them. It's true.
I'm terrible. I dislike Europeans. I'm Don Cherry with better clothes. I'm admitting this freely. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 20:18:13
I don't really want to dog Sakic, because I think he's amazing. But I think he's got a thing for Sweds!
He had an amazing 2nd year that I will give him all the credit in the world and last year he did most of it on his own. But the rest of his best seasons have a Swedish Flavour. Either Sundin or Forsberg.
Granted, Jagr's best seasons had a French Canadian flavour.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 16:21:28
Joe Sakic was a prolific scorer on the Nordiques when the only thing they were winning was the chance to draft first overall every year.
And willus, as for the savant comment, why is it such a crime to say I know a lot about hockey? Are we communists, where everyone has to have the same level of knowledge and insight? That I am neck deep in every aspect of the game is not something I'm bragging about, it's just who I am. I don't get how that puts a target on my back (a GM poll? savant?).
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| Guest5909 |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 14:09:53
Joe Thornton may not have played all ten seasons but he still has more total points than the last three guys on the list |
| nux_fan |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 10:52:07
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Let's not forget that Sakic has been very fortunate. He has played for the most part with an excellent team.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
D'em fightin' words Willus. ;)
I'd have a VERY difficult time choosing between Jagr or Sakic. They both bring so much to the table it's not even funny. Jagr not only has amazing talent, but he's a brute too. He can overpower you to get to the front of the net. Sakic is no doubt incredibly skilled, but he also has the cerebral part of the game, is 'quicker', and makes the team around him better. It's no easy chore to choose either of these two guys, and it's a win-win situation no matter who is chosen.
If I was really really forced to make a choice however, I'd have to give the slight edge to Sakic, as I believe that the overall team as whole would be better with him on the team.
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| willus3 |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 09:25:20
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Jagr is/was an incredible talent. Then again, so is/was Alexi Kovalev. If a guy could go back in time, I'd still take Sakic, and so would most NHL people.
You took a poll did you?
Kovalev is one of the biggest wastes of talent I've ever witnessed. There is no comparison between Kovalev and Jagr.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Dude, I don't need to take a poll. The only TV I watch is NHL hockey related. The only magazines I read are NHL hockey related. When I get together with my buddies, 98% of our conversation is about NHL hockey (leaving 2% to catch up on the wives and kids).
I live it. I breathe it. I never forget a comment made by a GM or coach. Am I normal? Nope, but I do know a lot about this beautiful, wonderful, fantastic, amazing, gift-from-the-good-lord-above game.
It's been said more times than once, Jagr is a coach-killer. Sakic is a franchise dream.
The Kovalev comment was made for effect. He's useless, I agree. But some of his tendencies are comparable to Jagr's, and I highlighted them above.
Dude! Sorry, I didn't realize you were a hockey savant.
Jagr has proved to be the more talented of the two players. With a talent like that you find a coach that meshes. You don't keep the coach and get rid of a generational talent.
There is only one player from the 90's I would choose ahead of Jagr and that was Lemieux.
Let's not forget that Sakic has been very fortunate. He has played for the most part with an excellent team.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 21:46:59
Andyhack I hear ya. I said it would be a really tough call. This is just a preference difference between you and I. Your view on hockey, very similar to Willus, is that a great two way player with and offensive upside is the ultimate player. My view is that phenom offensive player is one in a million, and I can find other players for the defensive part.
I think it came up in previous conversations about Gretzky and such and players such as Trottier come up as a guy that some might take over Gretzky if building a team.
Plus, it's hard to be a Canadian and not love a guy like Sakic.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| andyhack |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 21:29:31
Beans, I agree with analyzing it the way you do, and would also acknowledge that Jagr gets the check mark over Sakic in the "harder to find someone like this" category. But EVEN THEN (and that's why I say this is more of a pro-Sakic comment than anything else), I'd stop and ask myself, "Yeah, but do I want to pass on this Sakic guy who just plays solid all the time, is very very smart, is a significantly better player defensively, and maybe most importantly, is usually VERY good in the clutch (perhaps underated that way). I can watch that wrist shot he made in Game 7 against the Devils to make it 3 to 1 again and again! |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 21:21:52
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Jagr is/was an incredible talent. Then again, so is/was Alexi Kovalev. If a guy could go back in time, I'd still take Sakic, and so would most NHL people.
You took a poll did you?
Kovalev is one of the biggest wastes of talent I've ever witnessed. There is no comparison between Kovalev and Jagr.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Dude, I don't need to take a poll. The only TV I watch is NHL hockey related. The only magazines I read are NHL hockey related. When I get together with my buddies, 98% of our conversation is about NHL hockey (leaving 2% to catch up on the wives and kids).
I live it. I breathe it. I never forget a comment made by a GM or coach. Am I normal? Nope, but I do know a lot about this beautiful, wonderful, fantastic, amazing, gift-from-the-good-lord-above game.
It's been said more times than once, Jagr is a coach-killer. Sakic is a franchise dream.
The Kovalev comment was made for effect. He's useless, I agree. But some of his tendencies are comparable to Jagr's, and I highlighted them above. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:53:56
Honestly, I think if I had to pick between the two it would be really hard. I think I would look at it in the way in that what skills do each have that I can get with other player and what skills can I not get with other players. Sakic does bring it every night on both ends of the rink. But I can find a guy with heart a lot easier than I can find a guy with Jagr's skills offensively. I think I would take the night he takes off every 10 games for the 40 goal and 100 points pretty much for sure.
All due respect to Captain Canada, but I can find a guy that can dig and fight to the end easier than I can find a guy that can put up 100 points a year in the lowest scoring period of hockey.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:50:38
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Jagr is/was an incredible talent. Then again, so is/was Alexi Kovalev. If a guy could go back in time, I'd still take Sakic, and so would most NHL people.
You took a poll did you?
Kovalev is one of the biggest wastes of talent I've ever witnessed. There is no comparison between Kovalev and Jagr.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 20:34:00
Jagr is/was an incredible talent. Then again, so is/was Alexi Kovalev. If a guy could go back in time, I'd still take Sakic, and so would most NHL people. That's why he's been on the same team his entire career, while Jagr has bounced around a bit, fought with coaches, been moody, questioned team strategies...blah...blah...blah. Just shut up and play already. If he had done that, he'd be above Sakic, but he didn't. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 19:11:10
Look, I really like Sakic. I think he's an amazing player. I have all the respect in the world for him.
But I have never seen Sakic dominate a game like Jagr. There aren't many players who I can honestly say had the ability to control any given game. Jagr posseses that ability. He's an incredible playmaker and if he doesn't have decent players with him he'll do it by himself.
I agree that he didn't always show up (Washington years especially) but even so he has managed better numbers than anyone in the last 10 years.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 15:48:20
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
I didn't mean to build a team now. I meant if you had each of them in their primes, I think I'd rather have Sakic. Or to keep the conversation more in tune with the topic, looking back at the last 10 years, if I had to say who I would have rather had on my team, I'd probably say Sakic (of course, in either case, it depends a bit on the overall makeup of the team, etc).
If u didn't mean right now than of course sakic
GO PREDATORS GO |
| leafsfan_101 |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 15:38:52
quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
Personally I wouldn't build a team around either of them. I'd probably build a team around an amazing veteran player who has cup experience and won't retire in the next 2 years. Probably like Patrick Elias, not exactly a great example but you know what I mean.
GO PREDATORS GO
I think that Sakic will go three years, but I would much rather build around Sakic then Jagr.
As for the list, it credits Jagr's ability but look at Sundin. A point per game without decent linemates. Naslund is there too, which somewhat surprises me but overall shows the offensive abbility he has. Nice list Puck . |
| andyhack |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 15:15:08
I didn't mean to build a team now. I meant if you had each of them in their primes, I think I'd rather have Sakic. Or to keep the conversation more in tune with the topic, looking back at the last 10 years, if I had to say who I would have rather had on my team, I'd probably say Sakic (of course, in either case, it depends a bit on the overall makeup of the team, etc).
This is not to say that I don't see the unbelievable skills of a guy like Jagr, but I just find Sakic to be the steadier of the two, and I believe that Sakic has more heart (or haaaat for the Beantowners out there). And I agree that Jagr doesn't necessarily "show up" every game. Sakic, on the other hand, definitely shows up every game. He just does it in a quiet, consistent and effective way. If he gets 3 points or if he gets 0 points, it's sometimes hard to tell the difference in terms of assessing the overall quality of the game he played that night.
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| nashvillepreds |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 14:05:06
Personally I wouldn't build a team around either of them. I'd probably build a team around an amazing veteran player who has cup experience and won't retire in the next 2 years. Probably like Patrick Elias, not exactly a great example but you know what I mean.
GO PREDATORS GO |
| andyhack |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 10:27:45
I am not saying this so much as a knock on Jagr as much a compliment to the other guy, but I think that I'd have a very tough time taking Jagr over Sakic if I were building a team. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 19:09:09
Jagr in Gretzky's era would not be a whole lot different, in my opinion. Let's not forget that Jagr is a power play specialist, and does not come to work every night. Power plays in the 80's were not nearly as well coached as they are now. It was more like, "Okay, we got an extra guy, let's go score." |
| Guest4132 |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 11:36:25
And add to the fact Jagr won an Art Ross trophy the one year, while missing nearly a quarter of the season. Other things were getting 54 goals at the age of 34, or 123 points the same year. There was only one year he actually won the award with Lemieux on his line (2000-2001 I believe). I always wondered how well he would have done playing in Gretzyky's era. |
| PuckNuts |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 07:21:18
Other notable players.
I am working on a list of D men, I will post it sometime today.
Player Games Goals Assists Points P/Game
Tony Amonte 804 285 330 615 0.76
Alexei Kovalev 721 253 359 612 0.85
Miroslav Satan 805 303 307 610 0.76
Sergei Fedorov 695 248 326 574 0.83
Jeremy Roenick 728 228 346 574 0.79
Patrik Elias 670 244 329 573 0.86
Rod Brind'Amour 733 222 345 567 0.77
Bill Guerin 747 290 272 562 0.75
Peter Bondra 690 316 241 557 0.81
John LeClair 624 281 274 555 0.89
Pierre Turgeon 622 197 351 548 0.88
Jason Arnott 708 227 307 534 0.75
Eric Lindros 515 211 297 508 0.99
Owen Nolan 651 219 271 490 0.75
Vaclav Prospal 712 146 337 483 0.68
Joe Nieuwendyk 628 236 242 478 0.76
Chris Drury 628 193 271 464 0.74
Scott Mellanby 720 168 238 406 0.56
Gary Roberts 571 174 209 383 0.67
Trevor Linden 712 137 210 347 0.49
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 15:27:36
Hey Puck, couple of guys I thought of:
Drury
Guerin
Elias
Lidstrom
Blake
Brind'Amour
Zubov
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 13:36:52
Jagr is the most dominant player of the last 10 years. No question.
It isn't only his numbers either. It's how he can control games. His puck protection is second to none. His puck control is also amazing. He plays like Peter Stastny's twin, who, I suspect was his boyhood hero.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| PuckNuts |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 11:33:31
The next best players with 300 + goals in the past ten seasons.
Player Games Goals Assists Points P/Game
Peter Bondra 690 316 241 557 0.81
Miroslav Satan 805 303 307 610 0.76
It looks like Jagr has been the dominant force in the past ten seasons, 402 goals is impressive...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 11:19:35
One thing from this list proves is Jagr's offensive ability. He produced an average of 99 points/season through the dead puck era, and the majority of which was without Mario on his line. That's pretty special. Puck, is is 402 goals the highest in the past 10 years as well?? That's averaging 40 goals/year in the lowest scoring era in hockey.
Many people discredit Jagr's skills as he had Super Mario with him, but this proves the opposite. Jagr, in my opinion, belongs in the top 10-15 all time offensive players.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
