| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| hkalirah |
Posted - 01/31/2008 : 09:35:42
Lets fast forward, it’s now 2010, and you’re Wayne Gretzky. Who do you put on Team Canada?
Here’s my picks.
Forwards
Crosby, Iginla, Lecavalier, Spezza, Heatley, Thornton, Getzlaf, St. Louis, Savard, Staal, Nash, Smyth
Defence
Pronger, Phaneuf, Phillips, Campbell, Redden, Jovanovski
Goalies
Luongo, Brodeur, Ward
I’ve left guys like Niedermayer, Brindamour, and Shanahan off the list because I’m not sure if they will have retired by then.
Go Wings Go! |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 15:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9651
Gents,
It's Stevie Y here.
Here is our team.
Get ready to dominate.
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Staal-Getzlaf-Perry
Heatley-Thornton-Marleau
Morrow-M.Richards-Toews
Stamkos
Pronger-Niedermayer
Keith-Boumeester
Weber-Boyle
Doughty
Brodeur
Luongo
Fleury
taxi
Carter
B.Richards
Phaneuf
Was reading through this old thread, some very interesting debates, picks, arguments, etc. Having read the last few pages, i have to give this guest above (guest 9651) credit for probably the best forecasted team. Nailed all the forwards except had Stamkos as the extra instead of Bergeron. On D, only missed by one by naming Boumeester over Seabrook, which for the record, was the topic of a big debate by a few people in this thread (i won't name names, you'll have to look for yourself). Even had Doughty who many thought was a surprise pick!
Not sure if you're still around Mr. Anonymous guest poster, but if you are, give yourself a pat on tha back.  |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 11:19:47
0961 - interesting stuff indeed. Is that in this thread in the earlier pages? I'll have to have a read. Agreed, some very good insight by whoever the dude was who brought up Fisher back then. I can honestly say, if i was around here then, i'd have had a good laugh at him. I almost feel i should still apologize?
Don't recall making a bet, rather just having friendly debate with Beans. Actually, i think maybe it wasn't a bet? Didn't i volunteer / offer to change my 'Nucks avatar if Penner made it (with nothing in return if he didn't) or was that something else? Can't seem to recall? Maybe it was just something i thought about offering then chickened out as Penner continued his strong play ? Regardless, doesn't matter now. Having said all that, give the kid credit, he's had an amazing first half considering what most pegged him for. I say most, cuz Beans had him on his radar and his "gift" to us (telling us to take him as our sleeper), was left unopenned by me  ........
HawkInOilCountry..... I've seen quite a few LA games and i think many people are going to be surprised at how good Doughty already is. I will not be the least bit surprised if he ends up playing more than sitting and possibly even end up as a regular (top 6) before the tournament is out. He's just THAT good. |
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 09:14:37
When you consider how much people have debated whether Green was good enough for team Canada in these forums alone it should be indirectly telling of how the decision process went for Stevie Y et al. He wasn't good enough in most minds to be called a lock, and throughout the year a lot of people on this site have been leaving him either off their teams completely or having him as the back up Dman.
He looks better than most on paper to be sure. But you don't pick your national team based only on numbers. Green deflated in the playoffs last year. I watched almost every game washington played in the 09 playoffs and he was... uninspired, probably 60-70% of the time he was on the ice.
I don't see the fight in him to be a top line Dman. Every guy picked yesterday, with the possible exception of Doughty, could easily pay top line D for team Canada. And the only reason I leave out Doughty is because I don't know much about him.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 09:02:19
Yes, the bet was that the Leafs would be ahead of both the Oilers and the Senators in the standings at the end of the season. Loser basically changes allegiance for a couple of months.
I definately had Ranger on my squad. Talk about a guy that completely fell of the map!!
It's also interesting that people were arguing Mike Green making the team even back then. |
| Guest0961 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 08:51:31
no I think that bet was about the playoffs this year. |
| Guest1758 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 08:27:14
I believe there was a bet earlier on in this forum about which players would make the team and which ones wouldn't. I don't rmemeber who was in the bet but I think Alex116 was one person and Beans might have been another, maybe Tiller. The bet was that the other person would change there profile pic. I wanna say that Beans had picked Penner as a lock but not even sure about that. Hopefully this sparks some memories, i looked quickly to find the posts but there are way to many pages to go through..hopefully someone remembers |
| Guest0961 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 08:15:56
It's interesting to look back at the predictions from 2008. A lot of the team is as people thought it would be, but there were also some great and not so great insights.
In Feb 2008 for goalies Beans said: Luongo, Doesn't Matter, Doesn't Matter, then followed with Giguere and Leclaire. Pasty agreed but put Brodeur as 3rd and followed with "Giggy is our next best goalie... in my mind he is already better than Brodeur and in 2 years definately will be!". That goes to show you the staying power of one of the greatest ever.
A guest (7010) had Fisher on the team, citing him as being underrated and would make a great 4th line player on an Olympic team, a great prediction I'm not sure many people would have made, almost came true. I doubt in the 07/08 season many people even considered him to be in the hunt.
An interesting conversation between guest 9656 and leafsfan_101 about Green vs other guys including Doughty, the best quote from the guest: "Dude, Drew Doughty isn't even playing in the NHL yet and you're comparing him to a guy who IS in the NHL (Green)?" Looks like leafsfan was right about this one.
Kovy_Sniper included Bergeron on his team in Feb 2008. Not sure was he out for the year at this point?
ThorntonisTHEMAN included Kariya
A bunch of people had Philips, Ranger and Burns somewhere on the team.
... great stuff, It's been a long hard wait eh guys...
|
| Guest7157 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 07:44:06
quote:
Originally posted by Rambo2305
Not too much to say...couple questions though...wheres Marc Savard, Milan Lucic, Steve Stamkos or Shane Doan?
Lucic has done nothing this year to merit a selection - give it up. He was a flash in the pan last season. Savard has had his injuries and don't think he is playing to his potential right now.
Stamkos cooled down. If St-Louis wasn't named neither will Stamkos.
Doan is a little bit of a shocker and would have placed him over Bergeron. |
| Matt_Roberts85 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 05:51:35
You cant bring everyone, you could make an arguement for a ton of guys, but someone was going to be disapointed. I like the team, I have no problems with it.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
| Rambo2305 |
Posted - 12/31/2009 : 00:57:21
Not too much to say...couple questions though...wheres Marc Savard, Milan Lucic, Steve Stamkos or Shane Doan?
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
| Guest3652 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 10:10:50
I like the pick of Bergeron. I've watched him the last few week and he is back on track. He is very versatile and that's a good thing on the 3rd or 4th line. The pick I disagree is Morrow. This guy is not playing at his best since his injury. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:56:29
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Could be the most versitile team they could have iced. I still like Brad Richards and Vinny Lecavalier over Mike Richards and Eric Staal and I take St Louis 6 ways to Sunday over Patrice Bergeron. I also drop Seabrook for Bouwmeester.
Overall, I believe that with any kind of chemistry, this team competes and beats most teams in the world.
Look out Russian, the monsters off this Canadian line up will be dropping you on your junk early and often.
I'm not sure if I can wait the 6 weeks to get this going!
Beans, i still like M. Richards over any guy who was omitted. He's one of, if not the top penalty killer in the league. Great on faceoffs, plays both ends of the ice, etc. St. Louis can do similar, but i'll take the size of Richards over him at this point. With Richards, he's likely to be your 4th line center (or winger?) and pk specialist.
Brad Richards, well, i'd have taken him over Bergeron, but like i said, i don't know a lot about Bergeron's game so i don't know the role he's there for? It must be something that B. Richards didn't fit in? |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:49:51
Slozo, it appears that Bostonian Clam knew something we all didn't! I didn't see it coming but had heard over the past few weeks that Bergeron had a really good chance? I personally don't see it but don't see him play much either. I always thought he was basically a forward who put up points and then post concussion, hadn't gotten to the level that he may have been had he not been injured? I'm curious what sort of role he will play on this team? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:47:38
Could be the most versitile team they could have iced. I still like Brad Richards and Vinny Lecavalier over Mike Richards and Eric Staal and I take St Louis 6 ways to Sunday over Patrice Bergeron. I also drop Seabrook for Bouwmeester.
Overall, I believe that with any kind of chemistry, this team competes and beats most teams in the world.
Look out Russian, the monsters off this Canadian line up will be dropping you on your junk early and often.
I'm not sure if I can wait the 6 weeks to get this going! |
| Guest3652 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:44:57
Forwards:
Nash - heatley - Crosby - Morrow - E. Staal - P.Bergeron - Thorton - Marleau - Getzlav - Perry - Iginla - M.Richards - Toews
Defense:
Niedermayer - Pronger - Weber - Seabrook - Keith - Doughty - Boyle
Goalie
Fleury - Brodeur - Luongo |
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:41:29
Somebody post it when it's done as I'm stuck at work and can't watch
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:35:09
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Here comes the announcement.....
Just before it starts, i'm picking Staal (Eric) as the surprise, if you can call it that. FIsher's a possibility for a surprise as well.
I could see Staal getting the extra wing spot with Getzlaf and Perry and possibly Fisher fitting in on the 4th line. I don't have Carter on my squad anymore.
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Heatley-Thornton-Perry
Staal-Getzlaf-Perry
Doan-M.Richards-Morrow
Extra: Fisher
Pronger-Nied's
Weber-Boyle
Keith-Boumeester
Doughty
Announcement starting now.....see ya in a bit
OOPS....the first Perry was meant to be Marleau |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 09:06:59
Here comes the announcement.....
Just before it starts, i'm picking Staal (Eric) as the surprise, if you can call it that. FIsher's a possibility for a surprise as well.
I could see Staal getting the extra wing spot with Getzlaf and Perry and possibly Fisher fitting in on the 4th line. I don't have Carter on my squad anymore.
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
Heatley-Thornton-Perry
Staal-Getzlaf-Perry
Doan-M.Richards-Morrow
Extra: Fisher
Pronger-Nied's
Weber-Boyle
Keith-Boumeester
Doughty
Announcement starting now.....see ya in a bit |
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 08:52:55
I heard it too actually, they were talking between periods durign the edmonton game on sportsnet. All three comentators were talking about him as if he already ahd a spot on the team.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 08:47:15
Bergeron?!?
Are you serious, Beans? Who told you this rumour, a walking clam on the streets of Boston?
I really don't see that at all . . . especially since we haven't mentioned in him in all 20 odd pages worth of discussions!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 08:44:52
I say Penner doesn't get in for the same sort of reason that Savard doesn't get considered:
We already have lots of those guys, and the guys we already want who have that skill set, bring more to the table.
Yeah, I had Eric Staal pencilled in as my 13th forward when we first started this discussion, then I rubbed him out, and now? Crap, he's showing some serious heart right now . . . and of course Yzerman and his group have taken notice.
Agonizing decisions, anyone?
Does anyone still have Carter on their team? Lecavalier? Perry? If any of these guys are included on the team now, despite them being pretty sure picks earlier, it could be counted as a surprise . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 08:42:18
Penner does not make this team from his play in the past 2-3 weeks. He has fallen back asleep and became lazy all of a sudden.
Lecavalier has done well recently as well as Staal. Both could be there.
What about a Lecavalier, St. Louis, B.Richards 3 line shut down??? Sick, sick, sick.
I hear rumors that Bergeron is basically a lock. I don't see much Boston hockey out here in Edmonton, but I would have to think this is a surprise to many.
All our questions will be answered in 20 minutes.
|
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 07:39:03
Penner may still sneak in there. Pairing him with Perry and Getzlaf would be great.
Three weeks ago I would've laughed at anyone who told me Eric Staal would get in, but now.... He could very easily steal somebody's spot.
Stamkos and Doughty are darkhorses for me.
Brad Richards has been playing like a guy that belongs on team Canada. Mike not so much. Both could get it, but Brad has done more this season to earn it.
And I still maintain that Keith should be paired with Seabrook because of thier chemistry. I put him in the running with Green and Bouwmeester.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 07:38:53
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
So: any predictions for who might be the surprise pick for the team?
We all know that there will be half a dozen players left off that easily COULD have been included, but who will make the team as the upstart/surprise? Fisher? Penner? Stamkos? Eric Staal? Brad Richards?
I am going to go out on a limb and say that both Richards make it, that's my 'suprise pick'. What's yours?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I'm going out on a limb an say both Penner and Eric Staal make the team. Staal making a point I think to the Olympic brass has been skating on the wing for the last 2-3 games in Carolina. I know the last 2 games he has 7 points. Penner is just too much of a standout this year on a crappy team and is finally playing to his potential. Could you imagine a 3rd line with Getzlef centering these 2 or a 4th line with St Louis on the wing. |
| Sensfan101 |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 07:29:48
Apparentley the top five D are locked
Niedermeyer Boyle
Pronger Weber
Keith
I think the last two will be Bouwmeester and Green
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/30/2009 : 06:35:04
So: any predictions for who might be the surprise pick for the team?
We all know that there will be half a dozen players left off that easily COULD have been included, but who will make the team as the upstart/surprise? Fisher? Penner? Stamkos? Eric Staal? Brad Richards?
I am going to go out on a limb and say that both Richards make it, that's my 'suprise pick'. What's yours?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| redneck76ca |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 17:01:05
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Sensfan101[/i]
[br]I think Fisher deserves to be on the team in my opinion he has played his way ahead of Savard, Spezza, Lucic, Gagne, Carter, Lecalvalier, and E. Staal
I know this would never happen but it would be cool to see this line
Fisher Crosby Iginla
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
If Fischer makes this team, it as the fourth line center. He has played well but no way in hell would he be on the top lines. |
| Sensfan101 |
Posted - 12/21/2009 : 06:25:58
I think Fisher deserves to be on the team in my opinion he has played his way ahead of Savard, Spezza, Lucic, Gagne, Carter, Lecalvalier, and E. Staal
I know this would never happen but it would be cool to see this line
Fisher Crosby Iginla
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
| n/a |
Posted - 12/20/2009 : 19:09:15
I basically agree with Beans . . . the only players of recent note that I can think of off the top of my head who have played with nobody and still reached a 90+ season are Ovie in 07/08 (50 more points than a rookie Backstrom) and both Crosby and Malkin playing on seperate lines mostly (last year, both players had MORE than 50 points over their next best linemate). Except for these three very special players, I can't think of anyone else currently playing who has pulled that off.
To further defend Spezza, he is having a linemate hangover . . . must we bring up the fact that the former best line in hockey (Heatley, Spezza, Alfredsson) was the most dominant and dynamic line in hockey for a good while? The argument about Spezza needing his linemates could just as easily be turned around to Heatley . . . who has always played with a talented passer. Well, this makes sense of course, because he is a talented sniper . . . but give him lesser linemates, and his production is sure to drop - he's no Ovechkin or Crosby.
But all this is a moot point, as it originated around Spezza, who is not even being considered for the team.
I'll leave my thoughts on whether Spezza would look good on the Leafs when hell freezes over and both the Sens organisation and the Leafs do a deal like that, lol. Never going to happen.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 20:06:50
It only makes no sense if you have never watched Paul Coffey play. No different that Esposito dropping when he got traded and did not have Orr(another defensemen) to play with. You have to remember, there are 14 seasons in the history of the NHL where a defenseman had more than 100 points. Of those 14, Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey have 11 of those together. Only Brian Leech, Dennis Potvin, and Al MacInnis have 100 points season, and they only did it one. Coffey had 5 and Orr had 6.
Not only that, Coffey and Orr have a combined 12 seasons of more than 80 assists.
I didn't get a chance to see much of Orr, but I did see a ton of Coffey. He was that good and you could easily see how Gretzky's point totals dropped by 20-40 points a season once Coffey left. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:39:00
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well of course a player will benefit from another playing with skill, but that benefit is not one sided. Both players receive the benefit, not just one. Even players as brilliant as Gretzky and Esposito had drops in production when their dynamic duo broke up. Esposito never had another 100 points season of a 50 goal season after going 5 consecutive seasons with both and Gretzky dropped from 183 to 149 points the season Coffey went to Pittzburgh.
Now, here's mt difference between Horton and Penner. Penner started the season hot and stayed there. Horton has just recently gotten hot. Furthermore, Penner has little to no help with the next closest Oiler forward having 22 points(Hemsky) and Penner hasn't seen him in 12 games. Horton is playing with Weiss(I beleive) who also has 32 points. Why are we not talking about him for the Olympics as well??
Fine agree to disagree but how can you compare a defenceman leaving a centreman's team to a 50 goal right winger leaving a centreman's line, that makes absolutely no sense.
Well I'd argue the Penner has 2 more pts than Horton with 22 games playing with Hemsky but like you said you watch him more. I haven't watched either much and am simply going on numbers. I think playing in FLA we as hockey fans don't hear Horton's name thrown around as much as Penner's because he plays in a hotbed like Edmonton.
Weiss and Horton are both centreman I don't know who he plays with but I'd hazard a guess he plays with Frolik and Stillman. I could be wrong but I thought Horton was playing with Booth before his injury too. |
| hanley6 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:20:14
This is the team I would personally go with, doesn't mean its the team
Dustin Penner, Joe Thornton, Jarome Iginla
Dany Heatley, Sidney Crosby, Martin St. Louis
Rick Nash, Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry
Michael Cammalleri, Patrick Marleau, Nathan Horton
Mike Green, Dan Boyle
Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer
Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty
Martin Brodeur
Roberto Luongo
extras
Steve Mason
Vinny Lecavalier
Mike Fisher he's on fire this year
Rene Bourque
Patrick Sharp
Jeff Schultz
Brent Seabrook
That to me looks like a winning Canadian team
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 16:04:30
Well of course a player will benefit from another playing with skill, but that benefit is not one sided. Both players receive the benefit, not just one. Even players as brilliant as Gretzky and Esposito had drops in production when their dynamic duo broke up. Esposito never had another 100 points season of a 50 goal season after going 5 consecutive seasons with both and Gretzky dropped from 183 to 149 points the season Coffey went to Pittzburgh.
Your arguement is simply not fair. If two great players are separated, they will not do as well unless their new partners are also great hockey players.
I would agree with a single season of 90+ points as a fluke, but 4 straight?? One with 71 assists??? It's simply just not fair.
Dislike him for what ever reasons you wish. But to say the guy is not a good hockey player and is overrated is far off.
Now, here's mt difference between Horton and Penner. Penner started the season hot and stayed there. Horton has just recently gotten hot. Furthermore, Penner has little to no help with the next closest Oiler forward having 22 points(Hemsky) and Penner hasn't seen him in 12 games. Horton is playing with Weiss(I beleive) who also has 32 points. Why are we not talking about him for the Olympics as well??
More than anything, I watch Penner a heck of a lot more so I am bais that way. Not in a bad bias, in a bias in I have watch him dominate so many games this year. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/19/2009 : 12:04:17
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Tiller, you have me completely confused.
Let's look at your arguement.
Iginla won the Art Ross with Crag Connroy = I guess Conroy with 48 assist and 75 points is??? That's right, tied for 9th in the league that year. His next season of 90+ in 08 was with 4 players with more than 60 points. Guess give you that one as there wasn't one single player that was a PPG guy, but 4 at 60 is some pretty decent support.
Let's continue.
Jagr won the Art Ross in 95, 98 ,99, 00, 01. Let's look at his closest producing team mate in each of those years .
95 -Ron Francis - Not much to say here
98 - Ron Francis - Ditto
99- Martin Straka - With 83 points, including 35 goals. PPG
00 - Alexi Kovalev/Robert Lang/Straka - Pick one, anyone
01- Same as above as well as Lemieux for 43 games.
So again, pretty effin talented players riding shotgun.
Who else, Joe Thorton in Boston right. Murray, with 92 points?? What a complete plug. I can't believe that Thornton has 101 points when his closes partner had a pathetic 92 points. I mean WOW!
Should we continue???? You have proved my point and I appreicate it. It's is nearly exclusive to a player with 90+ point season to have shotgun rider with Talent. I bet you will be able to find a couple in there where it appears that a player did it all himself, but it's few and far between. The vast majority of 90+ point players have support. How can you fault a player for being around better talent??
My the way, I like Lecavalier on the team. Not sure if he will make it, but he's not far off. Canada is just too deep at Centre and there will be great players left off for that reason. Horton??? Many of his points have come recently. He's a career 60 point player. Maybe. I see your point that if we are talking about players like Bergeron, Cammallerri, and Penner, then Horton should be in there as well.
Beans the point I've been making the entire time is that Spezza's number's are inflated because of who he played with. Conroy's, Murray's, Straka's and Lang's number's were all inflated because of playing with Iginla. Thorton and Jagr respectively. And to clarify I only quoted the 2 years Jagr played without Lemieux and Francis.
All the players you mentioned had career years in the year their elite linemates scored 90+ . Conroy's best production was 66pts without Iginla. Murray's only other year to crack 70pts came the year he was traded from LA and 60 of those pts came courtesy of playing with Thorton after arriving in Beantown. Straka's best production was 76 in New York without ... oh wait he was with Jagr. The only other time Robert Lang cracked 70 was with Washington and oh Jeeze Jagr was with him there too. Kovalev only scored 90+ once in his career and oh look it was in his last year with Jagr. None of these guys are elite players.
I’m not faulting him for being around better players but it does make him exactly what I’ve called him the whole time – overated.
As for Horton I never said I thought he should be on the team just said with Bergeron and Penner etc. getting so much attention he deserved his fair due. Beans, you've been hard on the Penner train this year and he is a career 50pt player so by that logic Horton is a more reliable player. Don't think either guy will be on the team and I agree I don't think Vinnie will be on the team either, like you said too much depth at centre and I don't see him being a viable option on the wing.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest2643 |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 18:58:24
Yes Jason Spezza has been one of the top offensive players in the game since the lockout, but he was coming of a sub-part 2008-09 campaign, and he hadn't played well at all this season prior to his recent injury.
While without question Spezza is more talented than a lot of the centers on that list from last page, the truth is i have to agree that with the way Spezza has performed this season, right now, for a short 2 week tournament, i would take the majority of those guys ahead of Spezza. And i've been one of Spezza's biggest supporters over the years. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 12:43:36
Tiller, you have me completely confused.
Let's look at your arguement.
Iginla won the Art Ross with Crag Connroy = I guess Conroy with 48 assist and 75 points is??? That's right, tied for 9th in the league that year. His next season of 90+ in 08 was with 4 players with more than 60 points. Guess give you that one as there wasn't one single player that was a PPG guy, but 4 at 60 is some pretty decent support.
Let's continue.
Jagr won the Art Ross in 95, 98 ,99, 00, 01. Let's look at his closest producing team mate in each of those years .
95 -Ron Francis - Not much to say here
98 - Ron Francis - Ditto
99- Martin Straka - With 83 points, including 35 goals. PPG
00 - Alexi Kovalev/Robert Lang/Straka - Pick one, anyone
01- Same as above as well as Lemieux for 43 games.
So again, pretty effin talented players riding shotgun.
Who else, Joe Thorton in Boston right. Murray, with 92 points?? What a complete plug. I can't believe that Thornton has 101 points when his closes partner had a pathetic 92 points. I mean WOW!
Should we continue???? You have proved my point and I appreicate it. It's is nearly exclusive to a player with 90+ point season to have shotgun rider with Talent. I bet you will be able to find a couple in there where it appears that a player did it all himself, but it's few and far between. The vast majority of 90+ point players have support. How can you fault a player for being around better talent??
My the way, I like Lecavalier on the team. Not sure if he will make it, but he's not far off. Canada is just too deep at Centre and there will be great players left off for that reason. Horton??? Many of his points have come recently. He's a career 60 point player. Maybe. I see your point that if we are talking about players like Bergeron, Cammallerri, and Penner, then Horton should be in there as well.
|
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 11:35:06
Actually Beans you said name players who scored 90+ without top tier linemates which is what that was a list of. It has nothing to do with the individual talent of the players on that list. They are all top tier players and that is precisely why they were able to amass those point totals without having elite linemates. None of that disputes the fact that Spezza's numbers are elevated due to the fact that he played 4 seasons with Alfredsson and Heatley...
I repeat in my opinion Spezza is over-rated
Back to the subject, a guy that most of us had written of of the 2010 roster is Vinny Lecavilier, who has quietly regained his elite form and has 29 pts in 33 games this year. Not sure if he is "back on the team" yet but he is definately a much more serious consideration now than he was a month ago.
Another guy that none of us, myself included, ever considered for this team is Nathan Horton who has 34pts in 35 games, not to mention he is doing it in FLA with a lesser supporting cast than alot of other players in consideration. Horton is starting to look like the player the Panthers thought they were drafting 3rd overall in '03.
I think these guys deserve alot more attention than some guys that have been thrown around in the media such as Patrice Bergeron 24pts, Mike Cammalleri 30pts, Jeff Carter 25pts, Mike RIchards 26pts, Jonathan Toews 21pts.
Personally I still take a guy like Mike Richards or Jonathan toews for their defensive and penalty killing abilities but Vinny and Horton should see some consideration i think.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 12/17/2009 : 10:29:03
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I take Spezza over any one of the Swedish Sisters.
And Spezza with Kessel would be a nice fit.
OK if i'm getting ripped for Toronto bias that is straight up Western bias. Sedin's best linemate is Anson Carter so i think that speaks for itself.
You want me to name guys in the last decade with 90+ who played with garbage - Jarome Iginla, won the Art Ross with Craig Conroy centring him and 90+ again in 08 with no line mates, Jaromir Jagr won 2 Art Ross Trophy's after Francis and Lemieux left and scored 90+ twice with the Rangers with Michael Nylander centring him. Thorton scored 100+ while getting Glen Murray to his only year over 70 pts. Pavol Demitra did it with the hapless Blues in '03 ... Keep going? Ok ... Eric Staal scored 100 playing with Whitney and Cole, Olli Jokkinen did it in FLA with Marty Gelinas and the post "Steve Moore incident" Bertuzzi, Last year Getzlaf had 91 next guy on the ducks (Perry) had 72.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
Sure, keep going because you are proving my point. Every name you listed is or was a top teir talent. It doesn't take both players to be +90 point to be top teir. You are posting all players that have serious offensive skills, or at least did when their player notched their 90+ point season. |
| Guest5438 |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 17:56:07
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Sedin's best linemate is Anson Carter so i think that speaks for itself.
H. Sedin's best linemate is D. Sedin and vice versa. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 12/16/2009 : 15:19:35
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I take Spezza over any one of the Swedish Sisters.
And Spezza with Kessel would be a nice fit.
OK if i'm getting ripped for Toronto bias that is straight up Western bias. Sedin's best linemate is Anson Carter so i think that speaks for itself.
You want me to name guys in the last decade with 90+ who played with garbage - Jarome Iginla, won the Art Ross with Craig Conroy centring him and 90+ again in 08 with no line mates, Jaromir Jagr won 2 Art Ross Trophy's after Francis and Lemieux left and scored 90+ twice with the Rangers with Michael Nylander centring him. Thorton scored 100+ while getting Glen Murray to his only year over 70 pts. Pavol Demitra did it with the hapless Blues in '03 ... Keep going? Ok ... Eric Staal scored 100 playing with Whitney and Cole, Olli Jokkinen did it in FLA with Marty Gelinas and the post "Steve Moore incident" Bertuzzi, Last year Getzlaf had 91 next guy on the ducks (Perry) had 72.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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