| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MSC |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 08:07:27
Watching the Was vs Phi game got me thinking, who has scored the most empty net goals in their career? Who has scored the most empty netters in recent years? Who has the most empty netters this year?
I haven't researched to much into this because basically I don't have the time but I'm sure someone out there keeps these stats.
The reason for the curiosity is from watching Ovechkin score his empty netter last night. Philly had the man advantage, and Washington was already breaking out on a 2 on 2 rush. I would have to think the other players on Was would see this and realize it's no time to take any chances offensively and let the two already breaking out carry the puck up as far as they could and dump it in. This wasn't the case, Ovechkin really went out of his way to join in on this rush even down a man just to make an attempt to get on the score sheet again. This is just how I saw it.
Thoughts, ideas, issues, stats?
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| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 16:49:08
Well, perhaps it was too long ago for people to remember, but Gretzky was ALWAYS a pass first player. Even in his 92 goals season he had 369 shots. That's a solid week end for Ovechkin.
Ok, ok, I know I embelished that. It as a joke.
The year Gretzky scored 92, he lead the league in shots, by 18. Unlike Ovechkin's 528 shots last year, which was 150 more than the next highest.
Also, the season Gretzky had 163 assists, few would say he was selfish. However, he took only 19 fewer shots that season as he did when he scored 92.
Is it so hard to think that Gretzky was that eff'n good???
I still don't think that the comparison to Gretzky is valid and I definately disagree that Gretzky was a selfish player. 11 consecutive seasons of more than 100 assists is IMPOSSIBLE to acomplish being selfish. He has to pass off the puck to make that happen. He shot a lot, scored a lot, but passed off significantly more.
I also have stated at least 5 times that I was not correct about Ovechkin in the empty net situation. You want me to say it one more time?? I was wrong. Happy now??
I won't admit that I don't like Ovechkin. In fact, I LOVE watching the guy play. I think he has more talent than any other players in the NHL today. But that doesn't make him unselfish. He's a shoo first/pass second player. I also think he has a beyond arrogant attitude for a guy that has not won anything yet and I think he has more flash than passion to win. That's my opinion, and I can say it as many times as I want to.
On a side note.
I found a website siting the Gretzky had 55 empty net goals in his 20 yr career. Meaning he averaged less than 3 a season. Lemieux had 33. I'm still digging up to see if I can find any other information.
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| shazariahl |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 14:23:36
Um... despite logging in first, the above post still went under some random guest name. But that was actually me.
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| Guest4328 |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 14:22:15
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans, as to your argument, I will take it apart by talking about our beloved Gretzky. When Gretzky was putting up his records before Edmonton was winning the cups, you do remember the flak he got for being a selfish player, don't you? You do remember that much was written about him not being tough enough, not a good enough leader, etc until he won the cup, right?
Was Gretzky being asked to backcheck then? No.
Was it Gretzky's job to start laying out hits? No.
It was Gretzky's job to provide all the offense he could, period. He'd score goals, set up goals, and draw top assignments away from the second and third lines which were freed up to have more opportunities as a result.
Same with Ovechkin. Or Kovalchuk. Or even Crosby.
Calling a player selfish because he happens to be the best goal scorer on the team, and he makes the decision to shoot the puck at the empty net rather than risk passing it is ridiculous.
I agree here. However, I think Beans does have a valid point about Ovechkin - for some reason he's always struck me as being a little selfish too. That doesn't mean he isn't great, or that his accomplishments are in any way diminished. I just think he'll realize with time that maybe he can get more done by being a better teammate sometimes than by doing it all himself.
To continue your Gretzky example - Gretzky got his 92 goals, 212 points, and 50 in 39 games all in the same year. Many would consider this his best season ever. Yet the Oilers didn't win the cup, and the Islanders, none of whom were individually as good as Gretzky but as a TEAM functioned better than Edmonton, continued their 4 year rule of the NHL. In later years, Gretzky went on to focus more on passing, and his teams actually had more success as a result. He even managed to beat his own points record with a 215 point season - by putting up 163 assists. He'd already proven he was the best goal scorer - even better than Kurri, Messier, etc, but it wasn't about him proving himself better at scoring, it was about the team winning.
Yes Ovechkin is the best goal scorer on his team and in the entire league, but he shoots from anywhere, any time. Just because he's a better goal scorer in general, doesn't mean he has a better opportunity from some obscure angle, when there are players on his team open in better possitions.
However, I think that Ovechkin will start to realize this. He finally is getting some better teammates, and I think that will help too. When he begins to honestly believe they can score goals as well, I think we'll see him concentrate less on his own personal glory, and more on team success as a whole. In Ovechkin's defense, he hasn't always had quality teammates to rely on like he does now either.
So to conclude, I think he's "a little selfish sometimes" - you don't take 500+ shots on net without being so. But I think he'll start to change too and take a more team-first attitude.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 12:31:56
Guys, i too thought this thread was almost done, apparently not.....
Lemme see if we can't clear this up. First off, i think Beans has in fact made it clear that on this particular play in question, he didn't have a prob with what Ovie did. He commented before he'd seen the play and went on what someone else had said in describing the play, which turned out to be inaccurate. When he heard the description, it was easy for him to assume it was correct and due to the fact that he feels (his opinion) Ovechkin's a selfish player, he agreed with it. Once he saw the play, he changed his tune and admitted it was a mistake what he'd said (on that play). However, it didn't change his views that Ovie is selfish. Also, i think he made it clear he doesn't HATE Ovie, he simply thinks he puts stats in front of team goals and feels he could be a better player overall if he'd pass a little more often than he does? Beans, please accept my apology if any of this is inaccurate, but that's how i've interpretted your posts to this point!
I think the whole prob in this thread began with the OP'er claiming that "Washington was already breaking out on a 2 on 2 rush..........and Ovechkin really went out of his way to join in on this rush......". MSC, that couldn't be more inaccurate. I can totally see why Beans would find this realistic considering his opinion of the way Ovie plays. Now, why MSC said that, is beyond me. It's just so far off.......  |
| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 11:12:06
Alright Beans, I thought this topic was over and done with, apparently not....
Slozo had an excellent post, and I don't think he misinterpreted your argument at all. The Gretzky comparison IS valid, and people actually did call him selfish, especially when he was relentlessly scoring 50 in 39 and 92 in a season. Its fine if you think empty net goals are legit- because they are. Its the correct play to try and score to put the game away.
Your argument is that Ovechkin has a penchant for joining a rush in an empty-net situation when it puts his team at a defensive risk. On the play that prompted this discussion, its been proven that this wasn't the case. Can you give any examples of him doing this when it was an unacceptable defensive risk?
Can you give any examples at all of him trying to put his own personal tallies and achievements above the teams? If you can, you haven't demonstrated any concrete examples. Constantly repeating your opinion is fine, but its not an argument. Referring back to your original opinion as proof is a logical fallacy. Every argument you are making against Ovechkin could be used against Oilers-era Gretzky, which is why Slozo's analogy is perfect.
The truth is, Ovechkin is a die-hard competitor and I believe is more concerned with winning than personal statistics. However, he takes great pride in these as well (so did Gretzky, and Crosby, and most great players), but I believe he'd rather win a gold medal and stanley cup than score 100 goals in a season. Except if he could do all three, he would.
Beans, just come out and say you don't like Ovechkin, because its become blatantly obvious from your posts that this is the case. If he was the kind of player you describe, he wouldn't be making the players around him better, be beloved by his teammates/fans, and he would have way less assists/hits that puts up on a nightly basis. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 10:40:05
OK, let's dance.
I never argued anything about a player being selfish for scoring empty net goals. If they are there, they are there. Nothing wrong with them at all.
The issue I brought up was a player making a 2 on 1 into a 3 on 1 against a team with an empty net and that is selfish.
The stats you provided are all great and interesting, but I think you missed the arguement I was making.
And regards to Gretzky, I'd like for anyone to tell me a time where he put his personal stats ahead of the team's success??? I don't think you can. Sure, there were games where he had a hot start and got a couple of goals he would push for more. But Gretzky was very responsible with the puck. Rarely did a mistake by Gretzky put his team in jeopardy and he did not make risky plays to benefit himself.
And I don't recall Gretzky being called selfish. How could he be when he passed the puck more than he shot. Opposite to what Ovechkin does, Gretzky would almost always pass to an open player rather than taking a less than open shot.
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| n/a |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 10:08:12
What's even funnier is that scoring baskets late in the game has nothing to do with empty net goals.
Isn't the basketball net ALWAYS empty anyways? 
Beans, as to your argument, I will take it apart by talking about our beloved Gretzky. When Gretzky was putting up his records before Edmonton was winning the cups, you do remember the flak he got for being a selfish player, don't you? You do remember that much was written about him not being tough enough, not a good enough leader, etc until he won the cup, right?
Was Gretzky being asked to backcheck then? No.
Was it Gretzky's job to start laying out hits? No.
It was Gretzky's job to provide all the offense he could, period. He'd score goals, set up goals, and draw top assignments away from the second and third lines which were freed up to have more opportunities as a result.
Same with Ovechkin. Or Kovalchuk. Or even Crosby.
Calling a player selfish because he happens to be the best goal scorer on the team, and he makes the decision to shoot the puck at the empty net rather than risk passing it is ridiculous.
Firstly, they are on the ice at the end of a close game, so that must mean they are entrusted to some degree with decent defence, and certainly some skill at stripping the puck from others. It's actually not a "gimme" that your top goal-scorer will be on the ice in this situation. So, my point is, you have to be good enough to be on the ice in that situation, and you have to have the opportunities to score an empty net goal, meaning, your team has to be a decent amount of close games while leading by one or two goals.
Last year's leaders in Empty Net Goals:
Ovechkin - 5 (56 goals) - 8.9%
Iginla - 4 (35 goals) - 11.4%
Nash - 4 (40 goals) - 10%
Demitra - 4 (20 goals) - 20%
Havlat - 4 (29 goals) - 13.8%
J.Staal - 4 (22 goals) - 18.2%
As you can see, in terms of a percentage of his goals, Ovechkin has lower number than players that are often characterised as solid defensive players who are pretty unselfish - Iginla, Nash, J.Staal
Among the other goal scoring leaders with less than 4 ENGs:
Carter - 2 (46 goals) - 4.3%
Parise - 2 (45 goals) - 4.4%
Kovalchuk - 2 (43 goals) - 4.6%
E.Staal - 2 (40 goals) - 5%
Hossa - 1 (40 goals) - 2.5%
Vanek - 1 (40 goals) - 2.5%
So, mulling through all these stats, does this mean that Hossa and Vanek are very unselfish players? Does it mean that Demitra, J.Staal, Havlat and Iginla are selfish players?
Not necessarily.
As you can figure out, some of those guys probably don't get a lot of playing time in the last minute (Vanek), some were on bad teams with little chance to pump up their empty net chances (Kovalchuk), and some just happened to be good defensive players as well as being a top scorer and had a lot of close games (Iginla, Nash). And sometimes, it's just luck of the draw (Demitra) that you happen to score 4 empty netters in a season where you score 20 goals (or worse, there's PJ Axelsson with 3 ENGs, 6 goals total for last year).
Looking at years previous, the empty net goals stat continues to provide no insight into a player's "selfish play". Jere Lehtinen led the league in 2006/07 with 4 empty netters while only scoring 26 goals . . . but we all know him as a defensive specialist, and sound defensive player with some scoring punch. A lot of the time, it just means there were plenty of close games where that player was on the ice, and - they have to have some skill to score an empty-netter too, don't forget.
In closing, I don't think Ovechkin was selfish on this play in question- he was supporting the puck, something you need to do in general to score an empty netter down a man (players need passing options with lots of pressure). And although I have seen Ovechkin frustrated in some games and doing one too many lone man rushes, I don't consider him a selfish player at all, especially when compared to the other top snipers in the league.
When you're one of if not the best at scoring, it pays for you to be the first option to shoot a puck in the net.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Axey |
Posted - 10/31/2009 : 07:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by Mikey Boy
selfish or not...if i was in Ovechkins skates...i would be exactly the same! It not about individual stats, its about winning. Ovechkin knows he is the best goal scorer in the league, we all know that, so why give the puck to someone that isn't. Its like basketball...10 seconds left in the game are you going to give the ball to Fisher? No, Kobe Bryant is getting the ball because that is your best chance to put the game away.
MP
Whats funny is Fisher was the one in Game 6 who won the game basically with 3 clutch 3's, first one putting it into OT, second tying it in OT and third taking the lead. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 19:52:45
quote:
Originally posted by Mikey Boy
selfish or not...if i was in Ovechkins skates...i would be exactly the same! It not about individual stats, its about winning. Ovechkin knows he is the best goal scorer in the league, we all know that, so why give the puck to someone that isn't. Its like basketball...10 seconds left in the game are you going to give the ball to Fisher? No, Kobe Bryant is getting the ball because that is your best chance to put the game away.
MP
Sure, with 10 seconds left, I want Kobe to have the ball as well.
But if Kobe goes 4 for 35 and doesn't play defense, I don't have a chance to win anyway, so what's the point if he hits the bucket in the last 10 seconds?
Ultimately, I think Ovechkin would be as productive as he is now, with a higher shooting percentage, if he took the pass to the open player over the shot on net in traffic. I also think the Caps are more successful as well. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 12:32:02
Beans I see what you wer saying about people not understanding the points being made. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 10:40:56
Beans, i'm not trying to be sarcastic here, that was by far, your best post in this thread!
I appreciate your opinion and while i don't entirely agree with it, there are some points i do agree with!
Thank you for making it clear that it's your opinion and getting away from this one particular play that was in question!
Seriously, i mean this.....  |
| Mikey Boy |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 10:06:45
selfish or not...if i was in Ovechkins skates...i would be exactly the same! It not about individual stats, its about winning. Ovechkin knows he is the best goal scorer in the league, we all know that, so why give the puck to someone that isn't. Its like basketball...10 seconds left in the game are you going to give the ball to Fisher? No, Kobe Bryant is getting the ball because that is your best chance to put the game away.
MP |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 09:57:30
I could care less if anyone else agrees with me or not. MY OPINION is that Ovechkin's game is condusive to many positive things. I would never argue that he is not a one man wrecking crew, the most talented goal scorer in the game today, a ton of fun to watch, and really really awesome overall.
But that's not the arguement. My arguement is that although all of the things he does are fun to watch, I don't think they are productive to winning. He does things to help his team win, which is score a TON of goals. But if his team needs him to do something else to help them win, can he, and more importantly will he do it??? I don't think so.
I could care less how flashy he is. Some of my all time favorite players were the flashiest guys of all time. But those guys were also winners. They might have been flashy, but they were NEVER flashy at the expense of their team.
I'm no so sure about Ovechkin.
And the assists comment is neither here nor there for me. One could argue that Ovechkin gets a lot of assists and that makes him unselfish. But one could also argue that many of his assists have come based on rebounds of shots he has taken. I don't think many if any could argue that if he has a average shot or a pass to a more open player, he will shot 99% of the time. Watch him closely if you don't believe me and see how many times he will shoot in traffic while a team mate is open.
And for the record, as much as I might dislike Ovechkin's style, I have the utmost respect for his skills. How can you not?? I have stated in the past that I think Ovechkin will end up at a top 5 scorer in league history and that if anyone can break Gretzky's goal scoring records, it's Ovie. And I do want to see that stupid haircut and the toothy grin with the Cup hoisted over his head.
Although, I would not be surprised in the least to see him break a ton of records and go down in history something like Marcel Dionne. You know, the best hockey player to never win a Cup. |
| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 09:52:15
A couple of solid posts are at the end of this trainwreck. Well said Alex and MSC, I agree with both. My moniker was chosen only because Beans15 was taken, and I had to think of something really quickly on my feet. Sorry if it doesn't; meet your standards, I can change it to something less provocative if you'd like.
I'd just like to point out how awful the Ken Hodge comparison is. When Ovechkin entered the league, Washington was near the bottom in attendance figures. Nowadays every game is a sellout, and most of the fans are wearing red ovechkin jerseys. If they hate him, they have a very peculiar way of showing it. Ask his teammates as well, they all love the guy, since he goes even more crazy when they score goals themselves. |
| n/a |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 08:04:18
Wow . . . heady stuff here kids, heady stuff. Argumentation? Use of logic? English comprehension and fluency?
It's a bloody miracle I wasn't in the middle of this one! lol Well, I better get to it then, hmm?
Quick notes:
MSC - I am continuing to try and research Gretkey's empty net goals in his 92 goal season versus Brett Hull's 86 goal season with 0 empty netters. It's tough going, surprisingly, despite the wealth of stats for Gretzky, nearly impossible to locate boxscores for a season more than 25 years ago, when the keeping of statistics wasn't as prolific as it is today. I would like to continue on the ENG's place in history, so you haven't lost me there. Another post to come.
Beans - I feel some serious hate from you towards a player I think you merely find "too flashy". I certainly don't share your opinion, and would love to see what utube video you can find where Ovechkin has scored a selfish empty net goal. Myself, the more I watch Washington games (I make a point of doing so when I can), the more I respect Ovechkin's game. He is not only the most talented and gifted scorer since Bure in my mind, but he is a one man wrecking crew with the joyful attitude of a young boy. He is a gift to our favourite sport, and I find him about as selfish as any other talented scorer, which is to say - not that much.
And, if you are offering your opinion on something with no stats to back it up, it would be unfair and unrealistic to expect others to have to back-up their opinions, no?
Willus - Pointing out that a situation is plausible - that a high scoring star could be selfish and unliked by the fans - is redundant in this case, as clearly, even beyond the hype machine that the NHL has for all its stars, Ovechkin is very much adored by the majority of hockey fans in Washington and the league.
And, our humourously monikered poster here has a point about having to prove opinions. If a statement is being made that Ovechkin is selfish, however, it would be nice to see some evidence of it so that we don't relegate that opinion to the pile of opinions titled "bull$hit". No poster here was going on about how unselfish Ovechkin is, so why would any justification have to be made on their part to defend against your (and others)unsubstantiated claim? It's illogical, plain and simple.
Alex 116 - dead on. Nicely said.
Hugh G. Rection - I must admit, the little boy inside me lost it when I read your moniker the first time, funny stuff. Do take note that it is very borderline in terms of what would be allowable here, and that it does colour other people's opinions about your maturity level. Even if they were on their "high horse" as you say, giving yourelf a name like "I.P. Upwind" will only garner laughs, not respect.
Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with what you've stated here.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 23:52:30
Beans, i have to assume we're on a similar page believe it or not. I agree that jumping into a rush while up a goal but down a man is not good. However, if you've finally taken the time to watch the clip, i'll assume you see this wasn't the case here. Now, i understand it's your opinion that Ovechkin is a selfish player, would rather score a goal than win, etc and i don't exactly agree with that, but that's fine with me. As for proof, there's none out there to back up either side of the argument/opinion. Maybe sometimes he plays selfishly, but not always, or he'd have very few assists. If he were always selfish, his only assists would be off rebound of his shots as he would never pass. Do you understand what i mean? Whatever, it's your opinion, thanks for that.....
Willus....nice of you to jump in and support your fellow moderator! Good job! I offer you the same proof. Ovechkin gets assists. This means what? Ummm, he passes the puck! Wow! Does this mean he's NEVER selfish? No. Does it means he's unselfish more often than selfish? No. Why should anyone have to "prove" anything here? Beans gave an OPINION. He's not able to "prove" an opinion, so why should Hugh need to "prove" his opinion? Get it? As for his screen name, get over it. You've prob seen it before, had a chuckle the first time, now are using it against him. Whatever.
As for Ken Hodge, i never really saw him play so i shouldn't comment. However, if this is your proof that Beans' take is plausible, so be it, really, being an opinion, there's no need for proof. I do offer you this though. How many Caps fans do you hear booing Ovechking? I swear, i turned my volume up the other night in case i was missing them, still didn't hear any. Then again, after a minute or so, my neighbours were knocking on my door complaining about the loud TV so i didn't listen long. 
Oh, and as for your last statement..."Might I suggest everyone get back to the topic the OP actually wanted to have discussed - EMPTY NET GOALS.", why don't YOU take the time to re-read the OP and see what it says? Here, lemme remind you..... Aside from the question regarding empty net goals, the last paragraph is entirely about the Ovechkin empty net goal that we have in fact been debating this whole time! The last sentence in fact says: "Thoughts, ideas, issues, stats?". That's a question mark at the end of it btw....Guess what that makes it??? A "question"......You wanna use your moderator powers and lock a thread that hasn't gone anywhere close to off topic, have at'er.......
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| Canucks Man |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 23:28:47
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And by the way, my OPINION is that players such as Ovechkin who chase down empty net goals are selfish. As well as players who do not put the teams success ahead of themselves.
Ok I gotta call BS on this Beans, are you telling me that if an Oiler has a chance to either go to the net and score an empty net goal or dump the puck in and he chooses to score putting his team up by 2 instead of 1 he is selfish?
i would much rather see a Canuck try and get the goal, especially when all he has to do is hit an open net and ice the game then just dump the puck in and have the other team come back with a 6 on 5 and have a chance of scoreing the tying goal.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 20:15:37
I just wanted to end this off by saying Thanks to the significantly higher educated members of the site.
I did use the word 'fact' in the wrong context. I have since went back and replaced the word 'fact' with the word 'opinion'.
And by the way, my OPINION is that players such as Ovechkin who chase down empty net goals are selfish. As well as players who do not put the teams success ahead of themselves.
This is clearly an opinion and I have absolutely no stats to back this up. So if you wish to provide stats, please do so. It will do nothing to change my opinion. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 20:06:15
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Get off your high horse. Don't talk down to people saying they can't read or understand your arguments, because I'm willing to bet I've taken english at a higher academic level than you.
I've also taken philosophy courses, specifically ones dealing with logic.. You know what I learned?
Just because you bold a sentence doesn't make it irrefutable proof
You say I'm claiming irrelevant statistics and numbers to back my argument up, when you offer absolutely nothing at all.
Would ovechkin rather win or look good? You present this evidence as a fact, when in fact it is your opinion.
Your arguments include:
1) its my opinion (probably Don Cherry's too)
2) you are all idiots who can't read or understand arguments
3) ??
It is the equivalent of me claiming the 'fact' that Sidney Crosby hates Jews and that's why he's good at hockey. And nothing you can say can change that. See how retarded that is? Now either backup your 'facts' or stop making stupid claims altogether. Thanks.
The bolded portion of your sentence is rather comical. I guess the irrefutable proof of your statement is in your oh so clever user name. I wonder though how your "higher level of english" allowed you to make a simple grammatical error in the very same sentence. Ironic.
Now as for the derailed discussion going on here, I ask you this. Is it out of the realm of possibility that Beans is correct in his statement that Ovechkin is selfish? Let me give you an historical example of this very thing.
A player by the name of Ken Hodge, played for the big bad Bruins of the 70's, was oft booed by Boston fans. He had a couple of 100 point seasons and a 50 goal season. Yet his own team's fans booed him. Why do you suppose that was? It was because he cared more about personal stats than winning and the fans could sense it. Cherry who coached him said he was happier when he scored a goal but the team lost the game than if he went without a point but won.
So history shows that Beans position is indeed very plausible.
It is his opinion as you point out but the beauty of opinions is the very fact that you do not have to have facts to have an opinion. Now if you have proof that Ovechkin is not selfish then by all means bring it forward. If not, your argument is going nowhere and the thread in danger of being locked for that reason.
Also your last paragraph is ridiculous as everyone carries on about how close Bettman and Crosby are.
Might I suggest everyone get back to the topic the OP actually wanted to have discussed - EMPTY NET GOALS.
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| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 19:18:32
Get off your high horse. Don't talk down to people saying they can't read or understand your arguments, because I'm willing to bet I've taken english at a higher academic level than you.
I've also taken philosophy courses, specifically ones dealing with logic.. You know what I learned?
Just because you bold a sentence doesn't make it irrefutable proof
You say I'm claiming irrelevant statistics and numbers to back my argument up, when you offer absolutely nothing at all.
Would ovechkin rather win or look good? You present this evidence as a fact, when in fact it is your opinion.
Your arguments include:
1) its my opinion (probably Don Cherry's too)
2) you are all idiots who can't read or understand arguments
3) ??
It is the equivalent of me claiming the 'fact' that Sidney Crosby hates Jews and that's why he's good at hockey. And nothing you can say can change that. See how retarded that is? Now either backup your 'facts' or stop making stupid claims altogether. Thanks. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:57:19
If I am going to make the same posts again and again we are not going to get very far. In fact, I am not going to waste my time. Look back on the post where I start it out where you should learn how to read and read it again.
Now, to case at point. Is Ovechkin a brilliant hockey player? Yes. He has the potential to not only be the best in the league today, but one of the best players of all time. However, if you could take off the blinders for a second and see one simple opinion.
Ovechkin would rather look good and lose than look bad and win.
That makes him selfish. It has nothing to do with how much he scores, how many assists he gets, or anything else.
That's my entire point. Although I will have to post it 5-6 more times before some might realize that.
I'm done. The people that can comprehend will understand my opinion. They don't have to agree with it or like it, but they will understand it. Others will continue to make points that are irrelevant to the conversation and bring up stats and numbers. Bottom line, MY opinion is that Ovechkin is a brillaint hockey player, amazing to watch, tons of fun and great for hockey. But he's still still selfish and will be until he sacrifices some of his own personal glory to win.
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| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:42:25
Here, beans, take 3 minutes of the 10 you've probably already dedicated and watch the link ill put up again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJj04MhX4g
If you are too lazy then you should probably stop commentary on that particular play. As for selfishness, I would argue Ovechkin cares much more about winning games (especially cups and gold medals) than he does scoring personally. Add in the fact he has never had less than 45 assists in a season (10th in assists last year) and suddenly he doesnt seem like a total puckhog.
Also, if he truly was a selfish arrogant player, do you really think his teammates would like him as much as they do? Didnt think so. Also, why would he risk injury (and scoring more goals) by throwing himself into hits like he does (see Richards the other night). He's just an intense, and immsensely talented hockey player. Selfish because he doesnt get more assists than goals? If that's your argument than fine, I just don't buy it.
Does he shoot alot? yes. If you were his coach, would you take him aside and say 'you really should have dished it to brooks laich back there, wtf are you thinking?' Im guessing not. If you score that freaking much you might as well take every chance you can get.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:23:47
Hey Beans, not sure if i'm one of the guys you figure needs to learn how to read, but i can assure you i can. How else would i be able to argue with you?
Now, in your post on 10/29/2009 at 14:46:06, you still say, amongst other things, that, and i quote - "if Ovechkin doesn't skate in, Backstrom's has more than enough options to make a play. Dumping the puck in with less than a minute left and no goalie is ALWAYS a smart play."??? Well, sorry, but at that point i assumed that you'd have at least viewed the clip that was provided before that? Considering you hadn't seen the play and were commenting only based on another posters opinion, i'd have thought you'd have taken the time to view it? My bad i guess? And you're the one calling someone "lazy bones" earlier in the thread? Ironic, no?
You also claim that "He was not selfish in this specific play. I agreed to that." Where exactly did you agree to that??? Until this last post of yours, it doesn't seem to me that you'd see the play yet and you certainly hadn't agreed to anything that i could see??? Trust me, if you'd watched the clip and seen my point that on "that particular play my opinion was that he'd done nothing wrong", this thread would likely have ended long ago....
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| willus3 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:14:44
Al Iafrate had an interesting take on empty net goals when asked why he shot the puck around the boards instead of into an empty net. These days not so politically correct.
"Empty net goals are for (insert term for cigarette)" - Al Iafrate
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| Axey |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:12:58
Ovie is selfish, love him as a player don't get me wrong he is one of the best today. But nonetheless this is what separates Crosby from the pack and makes the saying "mature beyond his years" oh so true.
With time Ovie will realize this difference and mature as he grows into a more all around player. Its just like Kobe Bryant, if anyone has seen the movie/documentary called 'Kobe doin' work' you will understand what I mean.
At the start of Kobe's career he was a good player, one of the best in the league because he had the ability to drop 80 pts a night and change the outcome of the game, much like Ovie.
Kobe himself admits now that he was selfish but he is now much more mature and explains that he does not need to score 80 pts to win a game because he has the tools around him that allow him to score 20 pts and still get the win (and championships) and feel great about it. This is why Kobe was MVP over 'The King' in 2008 hands down. This is when he became a 'great' player.
Now not to turn this into a basketball thread but you get my point, and I think Kovalchuk now is in the same bout as Kobe where he realizes he cannot do it himself and NEEDS players around him, this comes with maturity and the true desire to win. Ovie will someday wake up and realize this as well. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 17:50:56
Alright Folks, as soon as you learn how to read, things will make a lot more sense.
I conceded that I didn't watch the play. I was trusting that the detail provided by another poster was accurate. In this case, Ovechkin was the lead break out player. He was not selfish in this specific play. I agreed to that.
Now, this is where the learning how to read part comes in.
Based on the various games, highlights, interviews, etc over the past 4+ years, I think Ovechkin is a very selfish player.
He gets away with this because he is as good as he is.
If any other player took nearly double the shots than anyone else in the league, they would be called a puck hog. If anyone else cheered and jumped into the boards after scoring during a blow out (either blowing out or getting blown out) he would be ridiculed by the masses.
Ovechkin would rather score goals than win hockey games.
I think Ovechkin is a selfish player. You don't have to agree with me as much as I don't have to agree with you. I have not backpedelled at all. I did admit that I did not watch the play, twice now. But really, if it makes you feel better, smarter, bigger, faster, whatever to tell me I am wrong, fill your boots.
But NOTHING you say will tell me Ovechkin is not a selfish player. Until he starts to sacrifice his own glory for the better of the team, he is selfish. |
| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 16:51:40
Alex, the reason you don't see anything wrong with the play is there is NOTHING WRONG with what Ovechkin did. It was not a selfish play, at all. Beans was just proven wrong and now is constantly backpeddling instead of just admitting he misread a play he admittedly never even saw firsthand before drawing conclusions on.
If you dont believe me, skip to 1:50 of the first youtube clip and pause it. Would you consider Ovechkin 'jumping into a 2 on 2'? I, along with everyone with a working set of eyes, would probably realize that Ovechkin was already ahead of the puck, anticipating the breakout.
He did not 'rush up' to join anything, they actually rushed up to join him. As mentioned above, Backstrom didnt have the option to ice the puck as he was being pressured well before the red line. So either give it to Ovechkin or ice the puck with 50 seconds left.
Also, sorry Ovechkin is really, really good at scoring goals. I guess that makes him a 'selfish, me-first player'. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 16:34:52
Beans, i think you're missing my point here. Where in the clip do you see quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ovechkin skating in to join an already 2 skater rush
???????
I still fail to see this part, at least in the clip provided here. Unlike you, i'm talking about this specific time. To be honest, i've not seen enough of him to judge his overall game as being too "me first". I've seen him live twice and on tv maybe 7 times. On tv it's not always easy to make these judgements and the two times live, well, one was here in Van and i was out with the boys having a good ol' time and not just focussing on him and the other was in DC having just gotten off a west to east coast flight and was pretty tired. Enjoyed both games, but didn't really focus on Ovechkin's play nor did the opportunity come in either game to see how he played in with a late one goal lead?
Anyway, i'm just talking about this one play, i saw nothing wrong with what he did. However, does Washington not have a better set of forwards to put out there to defend the lead? Ovie, Backstrom and Semin? C'mon, you'd think they were the ones down a goal? Was Green out there too???
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 14:46:06
Here's the deal Alex.
If Ovechkin doesn't skate in, Backstrom's has more than enough options to make a play. Dumping the puck in with less than a minute left and no goalie is ALWAYS a smart play.
Ovechkin skating in to join an already 2 skater rush creates a few positives. Another option for a pass is there. However, there are also negatives along with this. It basically means that any lapse what so ever creates a 2 or 3 on 1 against Semin, who is a pylon defensively.
That being said, Ovechkin hanging back creates ZERO negative consequence. Sure, it worked this time, but that doesn't make it a good hockey play. If you suicide pass to your team mate through the neutral zone with his head down and he doesn't get "Boothed" it is still a crap play and your coach will make you skate for mile to make sure you don't forget it.
I am not talking about this specific play. I mean over all, Ovechkin is a selfish-me first player and his decisions show that. He is brilliant and has the game to back up his play so he can get away with it.
If it was a different player in the same situation, people would agree that it's a crap play to join the rush.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 13:03:20
Beans, i agree with this part of what you say, at least for the most part "jumping in to try to make an odd man rush is a risky play", however, it appeared to me on this play that Ovechkin simply went out with one of the opposition and got into an area where he gave Backstrom an option. If he hung back, Backstrom's only choices would be to chip the puck towards the other blueline to avoid icing, ice it, or try to beat his guy which is obviously very risky. IMO, on this play, Semin is the one who should have hung back after his pass to Backstrom leaving the zone.
While i'm not the biggest Ovie fan by any means, i do love the highlight reel goals and his enthusiasm and consider him to be an incredible talent. Is he the most responsible defensively? NO! Does he maybe try to pad his stats? Perhaps? But on this play, i see him doing nothing wrong..... |
| MSC |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 13:02:54
Well I'll have to check the clip when I'm home because I can't at work. But from what I recollect Semin had broke out with Backstrom to his left around center of the rink, Ovechkin was the third man over racing up the left wing against Pronger. For the time being I will ignorantly stand by my stance that the 2 skaters (the one with the puck and the one closest to him) were more then enough to gain the red line and finish off the game. If a third person were to join the rush he still should of held back and not rush ahead of the other 2 for a forward pass in that situation. I'm now trying to discuss good hockey strategy not who did what when and where since no one feels like continueing with the conversation of what the ENG's place in history is. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 12:16:05
quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Beans, sorry but you are wrong on this topic.
Point of reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJj04MhX4g
Shows ovechkin highlights from the philly game. Backstrom leads the puck out, is pressured well before the red line, sees ovechkin streaking out wide, and has three options facing him:
1) Try and stickhandle to the red line then clear it down- risky, since a defender is all over him
2) Ice it- pretty bad, since it gives the flyers another offensive faceoff late in the third
3) Throw it to the NHL's leading scorer, with speed, who has 1 guy to beat. And even if he is going to lose it, he'll be over the red line and able to dump it down.
As it turned out, not only did he make sure it went down the length of the ice but he put it in. Nothing about this play was selfish, and he didnt 'rush up' to join a 2 on 2, he was simply following the play. People that consider Ovechkin a selfish player are hilarious to me, since he cheers as hard if not harder when his teammates score compared to when he himself scores. The guy loves hockey, and his energy carries over to his teammates. If it was the correct play to hang back, he would have. Want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAaqI9QrfBI
K I'm done
You must be new to the site. You haven't realized that I am never wrong!!
Maybe I was premature in my judgement as I never did see the play. I was trusting the detail provided. However, I am not wrong in my opinion that IF a team is ahead by a goal and playing one skater down, jumping in to try to make an odd man rush is a risky play and lends it self to be selfishly stat driven rather than unselfish, team driving dump the puck and win the game.
And you might be right. In fact, I completely agree. Ovechkin cheers the loudest for his team mates scoring. I've seen him do this regardless of them winning or losing.
Maybe he should be cheering the loudest when they win??? |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 11:53:46
Hugh, thanks for the link(s). I hadn't seen the replay nor the game and i have to say, the original post seems so wrong now that i've seen it.
MSC, you claim that "Washington was already breaking out on a 2 on 2 rush" when Ovie "went out of his way to join in on this rush"? It certainly didn't appear as that in Hugh's clip? Looked to me that Ovie was the first one out of the zone when Semin passed to Backstrom who in turn fed Ovie at or just over the red line? I see absolutely nothing wrong with what any of the Caps did on this play. You might wanna check out the clip? |
| Hugh G. Rection |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 10:42:52
Beans, sorry but you are wrong on this topic.
Point of reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJj04MhX4g
Shows ovechkin highlights from the philly game. Backstrom leads the puck out, is pressured well before the red line, sees ovechkin streaking out wide, and has three options facing him:
1) Try and stickhandle to the red line then clear it down- risky, since a defender is all over him
2) Ice it- pretty bad, since it gives the flyers another offensive faceoff late in the third
3) Throw it to the NHL's leading scorer, with speed, who has 1 guy to beat. And even if he is going to lose it, he'll be over the red line and able to dump it down.
As it turned out, not only did he make sure it went down the length of the ice but he put it in. Nothing about this play was selfish, and he didnt 'rush up' to join a 2 on 2, he was simply following the play. People that consider Ovechkin a selfish player are hilarious to me, since he cheers as hard if not harder when his teammates score compared to when he himself scores. The guy loves hockey, and his energy carries over to his teammates. If it was the correct play to hang back, he would have. Want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAaqI9QrfBI
K I'm done |
| MSC |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 07:27:20
I don't hate Ovechkin, in fact I just drafted a team in NHL10 last night and my Edmonton Oilers were proud to take him with the 3rd overall selection.
My issue is that I don't appreciate the way he plays the game which is really here nor there from the actual point of the thread. The fact is he was just involved in a less then routine empty net goal in my eyes and it got me thinking about it's place in hockey history. More to the point I'm really curius about the top three season goal totals now. If you take away Gretz's ENG's in his 2 seasons where does that leave him in comparison to Hull's season? |
| n/a |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 20:47:37
I remember reading once that it was in fact Gretzky that held the record for ENGs, with something around 50 or so.
MSC, your hate for Ovechkin is showing so thinly through this thread . . . just say you hate him and be done with it. Enough with this lame premise to try and make the greatest goal scorer in the game today less awesome.
Shame on you . . . just appreciate the hockey for once, will ya?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 15:00:03
Selfish or not Ovie entertained! Paycheck = earned!
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 14:41:21
I didn't see the play, but if i'm carrying the puck out of my zone 2 on 2 late, up a goal and down a man, i gain center and dump it in as soon as i get a chance! I don't care if it goes at the net or not. As for a guy jumping into the rush, well, if it's me with the puck, i don't care who's coming up with me, i still dump it in when i get past the red line. I could have Ovie and Crosby joining my rush or i could have Beans and Slozo, bottom line, none of them are getting it..... |
| Guest9973 |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 13:16:04
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What do you mean apples to oranges??? They are hockey players. I can compare any two hockey players I want.
Selfish play puts personal stats ahead of team success. That's Ovechkin to a tee in my opinion.
There is not a player in the league that gets paid to do that!
Touche, but I may have been a bit misunderstood. I guess I'm of the opinion that the issue of who's better Ovie or Crosby is a bit overdone, and any comparing of the two players is unfair. Sure makes for a good read, though.
And I think Ovechkin is being paid to be a scorer and entertainer: I'm pretty sure whoever is ponying up the dough to pay Ovechkin (and I don't mean who truly pays for everything, the fans) doesn't care what his attitude is as long as it is not detrimental to the bottom line. After all, the NHL is an entertainment industry... |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 13:06:49
What do you mean apples to oranges??? They are hockey players. I can compare any two hockey players I want.
Selfish play puts personal stats ahead of team success. That's Ovechkin to a tee in my opinion.
There is not a player in the league that gets paid to do that! |
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