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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2009 : 08:07:27
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Watching the Was vs Phi game got me thinking, who has scored the most empty net goals in their career? Who has scored the most empty netters in recent years? Who has the most empty netters this year?
I haven't researched to much into this because basically I don't have the time but I'm sure someone out there keeps these stats.
The reason for the curiosity is from watching Ovechkin score his empty netter last night. Philly had the man advantage, and Washington was already breaking out on a 2 on 2 rush. I would have to think the other players on Was would see this and realize it's no time to take any chances offensively and let the two already breaking out carry the puck up as far as they could and dump it in. This wasn't the case, Ovechkin really went out of his way to join in on this rush even down a man just to make an attempt to get on the score sheet again. This is just how I saw it.
Thoughts, ideas, issues, stats?
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 09:47:59
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So all of a sudden its taking a huge 'chance' to give the puck to the league's top scorer to put a game away? Ok....... Ovechkin receieved the puck right around the red line and protected the puck from pronger when he dumped it in. Even if he didnt score he would have ate another 15-20 seconds and the game would have ended anyways.
I don't have stats, but empty-netters seem to be a wash among the better players in the league. I believe Iginla had a pile of them a couple of years ago, but even then more than 4 in a season is unusual. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:05:28
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I think you missed the point. A third player jumping into the rush (any player) in a dumping situation while while short handed even though the rush is already a 2 on 2 situation with the lead seems fairly irresponsible. Pronger could have just as easily been the one to win the puck along the boards. Now all of a sudden Was is in a situation with Ovechkin, Backstrom and Semin out of the play and some questionable d-men in front of a more then questionable goalie defending against a Richards, Carter, Briere/Giroux/Hartnell combination.
At the end of the day that one play isn't what the topic is about. I want to know the actual stats involving the open netter and who exactly has taken advantage of the situation. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:37:48
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I remember a couple years ago heatley had like 5. Not sure about all time though, I agree it would be interesting to know. Im definatly going to be doing some research on that.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:53:05
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Turns out http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20092ALLAASAll&sort=emptyNetGoals&viewName=goals keeps yearly stats.
Ovechkin led last year with 5 empty netters. Kovulchuk and Malkin the year before with 5 each.
I find it odd that these guys were the leaders because they aren't exactly on shut down lines. I expected to see guys more along the lines of Jordan Staal and other effective 2 way/defensive minded players at the top of the list since that's who I'd have out there for that part of the game.
Still curious about all time stats if anyone can find them. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:57:40
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Hey Lazy Bones, take a look in NHL.com. Under stats, there is a tab called "Goals" and once in there, you can select from various different options (by team, position, season, playoffs, reg, etc). The final column in the chart is ENG (empty net goals).
Last season, OVechkin lead the NHL with 5 ENG. 5 players (Iginla, Nash, Demitra, Havlat, J. Staal) had 4 each. 7 more players had 3, etc.
This season, Parise as 2, and 23 other players have 1.
Career wise, that number is a little harder to find. NHL.com has a great career and single season tool but ENG is not part of the criteria you can search for. I have been digging around and can't seem to find anything on career number yet. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:59:24
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On a side note, this is a perfect example of Ovechkin's selfish attitude. He would rather put the 2 points for the team at risk and go for a single point for himself, then assure his team the win and not go for the point.
Crosby would have been hanging back here. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 11:01:08
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Just read this on hockeydraft.com about Brett Hull
Did not register his first NHL empty-net goal until St. Louis' Jan. 13, 1994, game vs. Edmonton -- his 500th NHL game. Prior to that game, Hull had refused to shoot into an empty net because he didn't want such goals included in his career stats. He was forced to shoot the puck at the empty net on Jan. 13, 1994, because there was nobody else to pass it to.
Having read that when he had his 86 goal season there wasn't an empty netter to be had.
Any idea how many (if any) Gretzkey had when he broke the goal record?
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 11:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Lazy Bones, take a look in NHL.com. Under stats, there is a tab called "Goals" and once in there, you can select from various different options (by team, position, season, playoffs, reg, etc). The final column in the chart is ENG (empty net goals).
Last season, OVechkin lead the NHL with 5 ENG. 5 players (Iginla, Nash, Demitra, Havlat, J. Staal) had 4 each. 7 more players had 3, etc.
This season, Parise as 2, and 23 other players have 1.
Career wise, that number is a little harder to find. NHL.com has a great career and single season tool but ENG is not part of the criteria you can search for. I have been digging around and can't seem to find anything on career number yet.
A little redundant Beansy, no? |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 12:09:00
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Im pretty sure Gretzky holds the all time ENG record, i have the DVD Ultimate Gretzky and im pretty sure they mention it there. I think its some crazy number like 84 or something.... dont quote me on that though
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 12:25:24
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Ovechkin was not being selfish: he finished the game out. In fact, I think that ENG's are an important stat, and don't inflate goal totals. I don't think I can even begin to count how many times Edmonton hasn't been able to score an empty-netter in the past few years. (Eg. when Edm beat Van 2-1, didn't score on the empty net, and Kyle Wellwood scores, but it doesn't count because it is milliseconds after the buzzer sounds.)
Beans15, Ovechkin is pretty selfish, but he is good enough to be selfish: its his job! For crying out loud, stop comparing Crosby to Ovechkin. Ovechkin is a scorer and entertainer, while Crosby is a playmaking team leader. Don't compare apples and oranges.
Besides, Bruce Boudreau put his top line out there so that they would get the job done, finish the game, and score an empty netter. If you can put a player that scores 51goals a season with a goalie in the net, why not put him in when there is no goalie? He is statistically more likely to score than any other player. And guess what? That Ovechkin scored on the empty net with Pronger right on him. I doubt David Steckel or Quintin Laing could have done that. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 13:06:49
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What do you mean apples to oranges??? They are hockey players. I can compare any two hockey players I want.
Selfish play puts personal stats ahead of team success. That's Ovechkin to a tee in my opinion.
There is not a player in the league that gets paid to do that! |
Edited by - Beans15 on 10/28/2009 13:07:26 |
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Guest9973
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Posted - 10/28/2009 : 13:16:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What do you mean apples to oranges??? They are hockey players. I can compare any two hockey players I want.
Selfish play puts personal stats ahead of team success. That's Ovechkin to a tee in my opinion.
There is not a player in the league that gets paid to do that!
Touche, but I may have been a bit misunderstood. I guess I'm of the opinion that the issue of who's better Ovie or Crosby is a bit overdone, and any comparing of the two players is unfair. Sure makes for a good read, though.
And I think Ovechkin is being paid to be a scorer and entertainer: I'm pretty sure whoever is ponying up the dough to pay Ovechkin (and I don't mean who truly pays for everything, the fans) doesn't care what his attitude is as long as it is not detrimental to the bottom line. After all, the NHL is an entertainment industry... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 14:41:21
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I didn't see the play, but if i'm carrying the puck out of my zone 2 on 2 late, up a goal and down a man, i gain center and dump it in as soon as i get a chance! I don't care if it goes at the net or not. As for a guy jumping into the rush, well, if it's me with the puck, i don't care who's coming up with me, i still dump it in when i get past the red line. I could have Ovie and Crosby joining my rush or i could have Beans and Slozo, bottom line, none of them are getting it.....  |
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 15:00:03
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Selfish or not Ovie entertained! Paycheck = earned!
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 20:47:37
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I remember reading once that it was in fact Gretzky that held the record for ENGs, with something around 50 or so.
MSC, your hate for Ovechkin is showing so thinly through this thread . . . just say you hate him and be done with it. Enough with this lame premise to try and make the greatest goal scorer in the game today less awesome.
Shame on you . . . just appreciate the hockey for once, will ya?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 07:27:20
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I don't hate Ovechkin, in fact I just drafted a team in NHL10 last night and my Edmonton Oilers were proud to take him with the 3rd overall selection.
My issue is that I don't appreciate the way he plays the game which is really here nor there from the actual point of the thread. The fact is he was just involved in a less then routine empty net goal in my eyes and it got me thinking about it's place in hockey history. More to the point I'm really curius about the top three season goal totals now. If you take away Gretz's ENG's in his 2 seasons where does that leave him in comparison to Hull's season? |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 10:42:52
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Beans, sorry but you are wrong on this topic.
Point of reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJj04MhX4g
Shows ovechkin highlights from the philly game. Backstrom leads the puck out, is pressured well before the red line, sees ovechkin streaking out wide, and has three options facing him:
1) Try and stickhandle to the red line then clear it down- risky, since a defender is all over him
2) Ice it- pretty bad, since it gives the flyers another offensive faceoff late in the third
3) Throw it to the NHL's leading scorer, with speed, who has 1 guy to beat. And even if he is going to lose it, he'll be over the red line and able to dump it down.
As it turned out, not only did he make sure it went down the length of the ice but he put it in. Nothing about this play was selfish, and he didnt 'rush up' to join a 2 on 2, he was simply following the play. People that consider Ovechkin a selfish player are hilarious to me, since he cheers as hard if not harder when his teammates score compared to when he himself scores. The guy loves hockey, and his energy carries over to his teammates. If it was the correct play to hang back, he would have. Want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAaqI9QrfBI
K I'm done |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 11:53:46
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Hugh, thanks for the link(s). I hadn't seen the replay nor the game and i have to say, the original post seems so wrong now that i've seen it.
MSC, you claim that "Washington was already breaking out on a 2 on 2 rush" when Ovie "went out of his way to join in on this rush"? It certainly didn't appear as that in Hugh's clip? Looked to me that Ovie was the first one out of the zone when Semin passed to Backstrom who in turn fed Ovie at or just over the red line? I see absolutely nothing wrong with what any of the Caps did on this play. You might wanna check out the clip? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 12:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Beans, sorry but you are wrong on this topic.
Point of reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJj04MhX4g
Shows ovechkin highlights from the philly game. Backstrom leads the puck out, is pressured well before the red line, sees ovechkin streaking out wide, and has three options facing him:
1) Try and stickhandle to the red line then clear it down- risky, since a defender is all over him
2) Ice it- pretty bad, since it gives the flyers another offensive faceoff late in the third
3) Throw it to the NHL's leading scorer, with speed, who has 1 guy to beat. And even if he is going to lose it, he'll be over the red line and able to dump it down.
As it turned out, not only did he make sure it went down the length of the ice but he put it in. Nothing about this play was selfish, and he didnt 'rush up' to join a 2 on 2, he was simply following the play. People that consider Ovechkin a selfish player are hilarious to me, since he cheers as hard if not harder when his teammates score compared to when he himself scores. The guy loves hockey, and his energy carries over to his teammates. If it was the correct play to hang back, he would have. Want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAaqI9QrfBI
K I'm done
You must be new to the site. You haven't realized that I am never wrong!!
Maybe I was premature in my judgement as I never did see the play. I was trusting the detail provided. However, I am not wrong in my opinion that IF a team is ahead by a goal and playing one skater down, jumping in to try to make an odd man rush is a risky play and lends it self to be selfishly stat driven rather than unselfish, team driving dump the puck and win the game.
And you might be right. In fact, I completely agree. Ovechkin cheers the loudest for his team mates scoring. I've seen him do this regardless of them winning or losing.
Maybe he should be cheering the loudest when they win??? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 10/29/2009 12:45:11 |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 13:02:54
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| Well I'll have to check the clip when I'm home because I can't at work. But from what I recollect Semin had broke out with Backstrom to his left around center of the rink, Ovechkin was the third man over racing up the left wing against Pronger. For the time being I will ignorantly stand by my stance that the 2 skaters (the one with the puck and the one closest to him) were more then enough to gain the red line and finish off the game. If a third person were to join the rush he still should of held back and not rush ahead of the other 2 for a forward pass in that situation. I'm now trying to discuss good hockey strategy not who did what when and where since no one feels like continueing with the conversation of what the ENG's place in history is. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 13:03:20
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Beans, i agree with this part of what you say, at least for the most part "jumping in to try to make an odd man rush is a risky play", however, it appeared to me on this play that Ovechkin simply went out with one of the opposition and got into an area where he gave Backstrom an option. If he hung back, Backstrom's only choices would be to chip the puck towards the other blueline to avoid icing, ice it, or try to beat his guy which is obviously very risky. IMO, on this play, Semin is the one who should have hung back after his pass to Backstrom leaving the zone.
While i'm not the biggest Ovie fan by any means, i do love the highlight reel goals and his enthusiasm and consider him to be an incredible talent. Is he the most responsible defensively? NO! Does he maybe try to pad his stats? Perhaps? But on this play, i see him doing nothing wrong..... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 14:46:06
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Here's the deal Alex.
If Ovechkin doesn't skate in, Backstrom's has more than enough options to make a play. Dumping the puck in with less than a minute left and no goalie is ALWAYS a smart play.
Ovechkin skating in to join an already 2 skater rush creates a few positives. Another option for a pass is there. However, there are also negatives along with this. It basically means that any lapse what so ever creates a 2 or 3 on 1 against Semin, who is a pylon defensively.
That being said, Ovechkin hanging back creates ZERO negative consequence. Sure, it worked this time, but that doesn't make it a good hockey play. If you suicide pass to your team mate through the neutral zone with his head down and he doesn't get "Boothed" it is still a crap play and your coach will make you skate for mile to make sure you don't forget it.
I am not talking about this specific play. I mean over all, Ovechkin is a selfish-me first player and his decisions show that. He is brilliant and has the game to back up his play so he can get away with it.
If it was a different player in the same situation, people would agree that it's a crap play to join the rush.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 16:34:52
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Beans, i think you're missing my point here. Where in the clip do you see quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ovechkin skating in to join an already 2 skater rush
???????
I still fail to see this part, at least in the clip provided here. Unlike you, i'm talking about this specific time. To be honest, i've not seen enough of him to judge his overall game as being too "me first". I've seen him live twice and on tv maybe 7 times. On tv it's not always easy to make these judgements and the two times live, well, one was here in Van and i was out with the boys having a good ol' time and not just focussing on him and the other was in DC having just gotten off a west to east coast flight and was pretty tired. Enjoyed both games, but didn't really focus on Ovechkin's play nor did the opportunity come in either game to see how he played in with a late one goal lead?
Anyway, i'm just talking about this one play, i saw nothing wrong with what he did. However, does Washington not have a better set of forwards to put out there to defend the lead? Ovie, Backstrom and Semin? C'mon, you'd think they were the ones down a goal? Was Green out there too???
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 16:51:40
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Alex, the reason you don't see anything wrong with the play is there is NOTHING WRONG with what Ovechkin did. It was not a selfish play, at all. Beans was just proven wrong and now is constantly backpeddling instead of just admitting he misread a play he admittedly never even saw firsthand before drawing conclusions on.
If you dont believe me, skip to 1:50 of the first youtube clip and pause it. Would you consider Ovechkin 'jumping into a 2 on 2'? I, along with everyone with a working set of eyes, would probably realize that Ovechkin was already ahead of the puck, anticipating the breakout.
He did not 'rush up' to join anything, they actually rushed up to join him. As mentioned above, Backstrom didnt have the option to ice the puck as he was being pressured well before the red line. So either give it to Ovechkin or ice the puck with 50 seconds left.
Also, sorry Ovechkin is really, really good at scoring goals. I guess that makes him a 'selfish, me-first player'. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 17:50:56
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Alright Folks, as soon as you learn how to read, things will make a lot more sense.
I conceded that I didn't watch the play. I was trusting that the detail provided by another poster was accurate. In this case, Ovechkin was the lead break out player. He was not selfish in this specific play. I agreed to that.
Now, this is where the learning how to read part comes in.
Based on the various games, highlights, interviews, etc over the past 4+ years, I think Ovechkin is a very selfish player.
He gets away with this because he is as good as he is.
If any other player took nearly double the shots than anyone else in the league, they would be called a puck hog. If anyone else cheered and jumped into the boards after scoring during a blow out (either blowing out or getting blown out) he would be ridiculed by the masses.
Ovechkin would rather score goals than win hockey games.
I think Ovechkin is a selfish player. You don't have to agree with me as much as I don't have to agree with you. I have not backpedelled at all. I did admit that I did not watch the play, twice now. But really, if it makes you feel better, smarter, bigger, faster, whatever to tell me I am wrong, fill your boots.
But NOTHING you say will tell me Ovechkin is not a selfish player. Until he starts to sacrifice his own glory for the better of the team, he is selfish. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:12:58
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Ovie is selfish, love him as a player don't get me wrong he is one of the best today. But nonetheless this is what separates Crosby from the pack and makes the saying "mature beyond his years" oh so true.
With time Ovie will realize this difference and mature as he grows into a more all around player. Its just like Kobe Bryant, if anyone has seen the movie/documentary called 'Kobe doin' work' you will understand what I mean.
At the start of Kobe's career he was a good player, one of the best in the league because he had the ability to drop 80 pts a night and change the outcome of the game, much like Ovie.
Kobe himself admits now that he was selfish but he is now much more mature and explains that he does not need to score 80 pts to win a game because he has the tools around him that allow him to score 20 pts and still get the win (and championships) and feel great about it. This is why Kobe was MVP over 'The King' in 2008 hands down. This is when he became a 'great' player.
Now not to turn this into a basketball thread but you get my point, and I think Kovalchuk now is in the same bout as Kobe where he realizes he cannot do it himself and NEEDS players around him, this comes with maturity and the true desire to win. Ovie will someday wake up and realize this as well. |
Edited by - Axey on 10/29/2009 18:13:51 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:14:44
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Al Iafrate had an interesting take on empty net goals when asked why he shot the puck around the boards instead of into an empty net. These days not so politically correct.
"Empty net goals are for (insert term for cigarette)" - Al Iafrate
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:23:47
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Hey Beans, not sure if i'm one of the guys you figure needs to learn how to read, but i can assure you i can. How else would i be able to argue with you?
Now, in your post on 10/29/2009 at 14:46:06, you still say, amongst other things, that, and i quote - "if Ovechkin doesn't skate in, Backstrom's has more than enough options to make a play. Dumping the puck in with less than a minute left and no goalie is ALWAYS a smart play."??? Well, sorry, but at that point i assumed that you'd have at least viewed the clip that was provided before that? Considering you hadn't seen the play and were commenting only based on another posters opinion, i'd have thought you'd have taken the time to view it? My bad i guess? And you're the one calling someone "lazy bones" earlier in the thread? Ironic, no?
You also claim that "He was not selfish in this specific play. I agreed to that." Where exactly did you agree to that??? Until this last post of yours, it doesn't seem to me that you'd see the play yet and you certainly hadn't agreed to anything that i could see??? Trust me, if you'd watched the clip and seen my point that on "that particular play my opinion was that he'd done nothing wrong", this thread would likely have ended long ago....
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:42:25
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Here, beans, take 3 minutes of the 10 you've probably already dedicated and watch the link ill put up again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJj04MhX4g
If you are too lazy then you should probably stop commentary on that particular play. As for selfishness, I would argue Ovechkin cares much more about winning games (especially cups and gold medals) than he does scoring personally. Add in the fact he has never had less than 45 assists in a season (10th in assists last year) and suddenly he doesnt seem like a total puckhog.
Also, if he truly was a selfish arrogant player, do you really think his teammates would like him as much as they do? Didnt think so. Also, why would he risk injury (and scoring more goals) by throwing himself into hits like he does (see Richards the other night). He's just an intense, and immsensely talented hockey player. Selfish because he doesnt get more assists than goals? If that's your argument than fine, I just don't buy it.
Does he shoot alot? yes. If you were his coach, would you take him aside and say 'you really should have dished it to brooks laich back there, wtf are you thinking?' Im guessing not. If you score that freaking much you might as well take every chance you can get.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 18:57:19
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If I am going to make the same posts again and again we are not going to get very far. In fact, I am not going to waste my time. Look back on the post where I start it out where you should learn how to read and read it again.
Now, to case at point. Is Ovechkin a brilliant hockey player? Yes. He has the potential to not only be the best in the league today, but one of the best players of all time. However, if you could take off the blinders for a second and see one simple opinion.
Ovechkin would rather look good and lose than look bad and win.
That makes him selfish. It has nothing to do with how much he scores, how many assists he gets, or anything else.
That's my entire point. Although I will have to post it 5-6 more times before some might realize that.
I'm done. The people that can comprehend will understand my opinion. They don't have to agree with it or like it, but they will understand it. Others will continue to make points that are irrelevant to the conversation and bring up stats and numbers. Bottom line, MY opinion is that Ovechkin is a brillaint hockey player, amazing to watch, tons of fun and great for hockey. But he's still still selfish and will be until he sacrifices some of his own personal glory to win.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 10/29/2009 20:13:01 |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 19:18:32
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Get off your high horse. Don't talk down to people saying they can't read or understand your arguments, because I'm willing to bet I've taken english at a higher academic level than you.
I've also taken philosophy courses, specifically ones dealing with logic.. You know what I learned?
Just because you bold a sentence doesn't make it irrefutable proof
You say I'm claiming irrelevant statistics and numbers to back my argument up, when you offer absolutely nothing at all.
Would ovechkin rather win or look good? You present this evidence as a fact, when in fact it is your opinion.
Your arguments include:
1) its my opinion (probably Don Cherry's too)
2) you are all idiots who can't read or understand arguments
3) ??
It is the equivalent of me claiming the 'fact' that Sidney Crosby hates Jews and that's why he's good at hockey. And nothing you can say can change that. See how retarded that is? Now either backup your 'facts' or stop making stupid claims altogether. Thanks. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 20:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Hugh G. Rection
Get off your high horse. Don't talk down to people saying they can't read or understand your arguments, because I'm willing to bet I've taken english at a higher academic level than you.
I've also taken philosophy courses, specifically ones dealing with logic.. You know what I learned?
Just because you bold a sentence doesn't make it irrefutable proof
You say I'm claiming irrelevant statistics and numbers to back my argument up, when you offer absolutely nothing at all.
Would ovechkin rather win or look good? You present this evidence as a fact, when in fact it is your opinion.
Your arguments include:
1) its my opinion (probably Don Cherry's too)
2) you are all idiots who can't read or understand arguments
3) ??
It is the equivalent of me claiming the 'fact' that Sidney Crosby hates Jews and that's why he's good at hockey. And nothing you can say can change that. See how retarded that is? Now either backup your 'facts' or stop making stupid claims altogether. Thanks.
The bolded portion of your sentence is rather comical. I guess the irrefutable proof of your statement is in your oh so clever user name. I wonder though how your "higher level of english" allowed you to make a simple grammatical error in the very same sentence. Ironic.
Now as for the derailed discussion going on here, I ask you this. Is it out of the realm of possibility that Beans is correct in his statement that Ovechkin is selfish? Let me give you an historical example of this very thing.
A player by the name of Ken Hodge, played for the big bad Bruins of the 70's, was oft booed by Boston fans. He had a couple of 100 point seasons and a 50 goal season. Yet his own team's fans booed him. Why do you suppose that was? It was because he cared more about personal stats than winning and the fans could sense it. Cherry who coached him said he was happier when he scored a goal but the team lost the game than if he went without a point but won.
So history shows that Beans position is indeed very plausible.
It is his opinion as you point out but the beauty of opinions is the very fact that you do not have to have facts to have an opinion. Now if you have proof that Ovechkin is not selfish then by all means bring it forward. If not, your argument is going nowhere and the thread in danger of being locked for that reason.
Also your last paragraph is ridiculous as everyone carries on about how close Bettman and Crosby are.
Might I suggest everyone get back to the topic the OP actually wanted to have discussed - EMPTY NET GOALS.
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Edited by - willus3 on 10/29/2009 20:08:29 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 20:15:37
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I just wanted to end this off by saying Thanks to the significantly higher educated members of the site.
I did use the word 'fact' in the wrong context. I have since went back and replaced the word 'fact' with the word 'opinion'.
And by the way, my OPINION is that players such as Ovechkin who chase down empty net goals are selfish. As well as players who do not put the teams success ahead of themselves.
This is clearly an opinion and I have absolutely no stats to back this up. So if you wish to provide stats, please do so. It will do nothing to change my opinion. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 23:28:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And by the way, my OPINION is that players such as Ovechkin who chase down empty net goals are selfish. As well as players who do not put the teams success ahead of themselves.
Ok I gotta call BS on this Beans, are you telling me that if an Oiler has a chance to either go to the net and score an empty net goal or dump the puck in and he chooses to score putting his team up by 2 instead of 1 he is selfish?
i would much rather see a Canuck try and get the goal, especially when all he has to do is hit an open net and ice the game then just dump the puck in and have the other team come back with a 6 on 5 and have a chance of scoreing the tying goal.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 23:52:30
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Beans, i have to assume we're on a similar page believe it or not. I agree that jumping into a rush while up a goal but down a man is not good. However, if you've finally taken the time to watch the clip, i'll assume you see this wasn't the case here. Now, i understand it's your opinion that Ovechkin is a selfish player, would rather score a goal than win, etc and i don't exactly agree with that, but that's fine with me. As for proof, there's none out there to back up either side of the argument/opinion. Maybe sometimes he plays selfishly, but not always, or he'd have very few assists. If he were always selfish, his only assists would be off rebound of his shots as he would never pass. Do you understand what i mean? Whatever, it's your opinion, thanks for that.....
Willus....nice of you to jump in and support your fellow moderator! Good job! I offer you the same proof. Ovechkin gets assists. This means what? Ummm, he passes the puck! Wow! Does this mean he's NEVER selfish? No. Does it means he's unselfish more often than selfish? No. Why should anyone have to "prove" anything here? Beans gave an OPINION. He's not able to "prove" an opinion, so why should Hugh need to "prove" his opinion? Get it? As for his screen name, get over it. You've prob seen it before, had a chuckle the first time, now are using it against him. Whatever.
As for Ken Hodge, i never really saw him play so i shouldn't comment. However, if this is your proof that Beans' take is plausible, so be it, really, being an opinion, there's no need for proof. I do offer you this though. How many Caps fans do you hear booing Ovechking? I swear, i turned my volume up the other night in case i was missing them, still didn't hear any. Then again, after a minute or so, my neighbours were knocking on my door complaining about the loud TV so i didn't listen long.
Oh, and as for your last statement..."Might I suggest everyone get back to the topic the OP actually wanted to have discussed - EMPTY NET GOALS.", why don't YOU take the time to re-read the OP and see what it says? Here, lemme remind you..... Aside from the question regarding empty net goals, the last paragraph is entirely about the Ovechkin empty net goal that we have in fact been debating this whole time! The last sentence in fact says: "Thoughts, ideas, issues, stats?". That's a question mark at the end of it btw....Guess what that makes it??? A "question"......You wanna use your moderator powers and lock a thread that hasn't gone anywhere close to off topic, have at'er....... 
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Edited by - Alex116 on 10/29/2009 23:58:57 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 08:04:18
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Wow . . . heady stuff here kids, heady stuff. Argumentation? Use of logic? English comprehension and fluency?
It's a bloody miracle I wasn't in the middle of this one! lol Well, I better get to it then, hmm?
Quick notes:
MSC - I am continuing to try and research Gretkey's empty net goals in his 92 goal season versus Brett Hull's 86 goal season with 0 empty netters. It's tough going, surprisingly, despite the wealth of stats for Gretzky, nearly impossible to locate boxscores for a season more than 25 years ago, when the keeping of statistics wasn't as prolific as it is today. I would like to continue on the ENG's place in history, so you haven't lost me there. Another post to come.
Beans - I feel some serious hate from you towards a player I think you merely find "too flashy". I certainly don't share your opinion, and would love to see what utube video you can find where Ovechkin has scored a selfish empty net goal. Myself, the more I watch Washington games (I make a point of doing so when I can), the more I respect Ovechkin's game. He is not only the most talented and gifted scorer since Bure in my mind, but he is a one man wrecking crew with the joyful attitude of a young boy. He is a gift to our favourite sport, and I find him about as selfish as any other talented scorer, which is to say - not that much.
And, if you are offering your opinion on something with no stats to back it up, it would be unfair and unrealistic to expect others to have to back-up their opinions, no?
Willus - Pointing out that a situation is plausible - that a high scoring star could be selfish and unliked by the fans - is redundant in this case, as clearly, even beyond the hype machine that the NHL has for all its stars, Ovechkin is very much adored by the majority of hockey fans in Washington and the league.
And, our humourously monikered poster here has a point about having to prove opinions. If a statement is being made that Ovechkin is selfish, however, it would be nice to see some evidence of it so that we don't relegate that opinion to the pile of opinions titled "bull$hit". No poster here was going on about how unselfish Ovechkin is, so why would any justification have to be made on their part to defend against your (and others)unsubstantiated claim? It's illogical, plain and simple.
Alex 116 - dead on. Nicely said.
Hugh G. Rection - I must admit, the little boy inside me lost it when I read your moniker the first time, funny stuff. Do take note that it is very borderline in terms of what would be allowable here, and that it does colour other people's opinions about your maturity level. Even if they were on their "high horse" as you say, giving yourelf a name like "I.P. Upwind" will only garner laughs, not respect.
Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree with what you've stated here.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 09:52:15
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A couple of solid posts are at the end of this trainwreck. Well said Alex and MSC, I agree with both. My moniker was chosen only because Beans15 was taken, and I had to think of something really quickly on my feet. Sorry if it doesn't; meet your standards, I can change it to something less provocative if you'd like.
I'd just like to point out how awful the Ken Hodge comparison is. When Ovechkin entered the league, Washington was near the bottom in attendance figures. Nowadays every game is a sellout, and most of the fans are wearing red ovechkin jerseys. If they hate him, they have a very peculiar way of showing it. Ask his teammates as well, they all love the guy, since he goes even more crazy when they score goals themselves. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 09:57:30
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I could care less if anyone else agrees with me or not. MY OPINION is that Ovechkin's game is condusive to many positive things. I would never argue that he is not a one man wrecking crew, the most talented goal scorer in the game today, a ton of fun to watch, and really really awesome overall.
But that's not the arguement. My arguement is that although all of the things he does are fun to watch, I don't think they are productive to winning. He does things to help his team win, which is score a TON of goals. But if his team needs him to do something else to help them win, can he, and more importantly will he do it??? I don't think so.
I could care less how flashy he is. Some of my all time favorite players were the flashiest guys of all time. But those guys were also winners. They might have been flashy, but they were NEVER flashy at the expense of their team.
I'm no so sure about Ovechkin.
And the assists comment is neither here nor there for me. One could argue that Ovechkin gets a lot of assists and that makes him unselfish. But one could also argue that many of his assists have come based on rebounds of shots he has taken. I don't think many if any could argue that if he has a average shot or a pass to a more open player, he will shot 99% of the time. Watch him closely if you don't believe me and see how many times he will shoot in traffic while a team mate is open.
And for the record, as much as I might dislike Ovechkin's style, I have the utmost respect for his skills. How can you not?? I have stated in the past that I think Ovechkin will end up at a top 5 scorer in league history and that if anyone can break Gretzky's goal scoring records, it's Ovie. And I do want to see that stupid haircut and the toothy grin with the Cup hoisted over his head.
Although, I would not be surprised in the least to see him break a ton of records and go down in history something like Marcel Dionne. You know, the best hockey player to never win a Cup. |
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Mikey Boy
Rookie
Canada
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 10:06:45
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selfish or not...if i was in Ovechkins skates...i would be exactly the same! It not about individual stats, its about winning. Ovechkin knows he is the best goal scorer in the league, we all know that, so why give the puck to someone that isn't. Its like basketball...10 seconds left in the game are you going to give the ball to Fisher? No, Kobe Bryant is getting the ball because that is your best chance to put the game away.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 10:40:56
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Beans, i'm not trying to be sarcastic here, that was by far, your best post in this thread!
I appreciate your opinion and while i don't entirely agree with it, there are some points i do agree with!
Thank you for making it clear that it's your opinion and getting away from this one particular play that was in question!
Seriously, i mean this.....  |
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Empty Net Goals 
