| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mikey Boy |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 06:52:42
Assuming that the obvious makes team Canada ( Crosby, Nash, Thornton, Iginla, Heatley, Getzlaf, M Richards, Carter, Perry) who will the last three be?
MP |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 12:51:27
I'll take the extremist position then, I think it would be smart to spearate Niedermayer and Pronger. Like you said Pronger can play with anyone and that goes for Niedermayer as well. I maintain that Pronger and Bouwmeester as your number one pairing is the best shutdown defensive pairing in the tournament.
There will be guys like Lidstrom and Chara in the tournament but having Pronger and Bouwmeester against Russia's or Sweden's top line is Canada's strongest game plan. Both guys are capable of playing in excess of 30 minutes a game and without knocking Niedermayer he's getting on in age and has lost some speed and is less physical thatn those two guys. Pronger is a beast and bouwmeester is a big body that is quite capable of facilitating the rush.
I like the Idea of Niedermayer playing with Phaneuf or Weber one of the younger guys with boyle rounding out the top 6. I have Keith as my seventh guy but he could easily fill in on the 2nd and 3rd pairing. I think after Pronger and Bouwmeester just go with whoever meshes best. A pairing I could see emerge is Phaneuf and Weber from the 05 Word Juniors.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest1756 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 12:42:06
Credibility was definitely lost by not putting Heatley on the roster. His name probably hasn't even been mentioned in Stevie's office for weeks because he is such a guarantee. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 10:54:57
I wouldn't say the person lost all credibility by leaving off Heatley. Some people might not think he should be there. People shouldn't lose credibility based on differing opions. They lose credibility by giving false information or plagerizing. The guest lost no more credibility from his post than the post accusing him of losing credibility.
And I don't think it's crazy to put Neidermayer and Pronger on different lines. Even in Anahiem, Neidermayer played most of his regular minutes with Beauchemin. He played with Pronger on the PP/PK and late in close games.
I think Neidermayer would look pretty sick with Keith, and I don't think (with the exception of Bouwmeester) you could find a better skating defensive duo in all of the world.
Pronger can literally play with anyone. Weber and Pronger might be one of the most physical pairings possible. I also think that Pronger and Boyle would look nice.
The guest isn't that crazy. Well, no more crazy than I am I guess. |
| Guest5382 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 10:40:29
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
You lost all credability by leaving Heatley off the roster. Are you crazy? In your world does he have the ebola virus? Hes better than Stamkos, both Richards, Perry Morrow Doan and Toews. How can you leave off the #2 guy in goals, #5 in points this year. Only Brad Richards from my list has more points and he doesn't usually find himself at the top of league standings.
That and separating Pronger from Nieds in defensive pairings. They are used to playing together and separating them makes no sense. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 08:12:52
quote:
Originally posted by Guest3781
Nash Crosby Iginla
Marleau Thorton Carter
Richards Getzlaf Perry
St.Louis B.Richards Stamkos
Toews(can play in any situation, Morrow and Doan not having great years)
Niedermayer Weber
Pronger Keith
Bouwmeester Seabrook
Boyle( Strong Consideration given to Green and Doughty)
You lost all credability by leaving Heatley off the roster. Are you crazy? In your world does he have the ebola virus? Hes better than Stamkos, both Richards, Perry Morrow Doan and Toews. How can you leave off the #2 guy in goals, #5 in points this year. Only Brad Richards from my list has more points and he doesn't usually find himself at the top of league standings. |
| Guest3781 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 07:35:38
Sorry Made an error on my post just above
Niedermayer Weber
Pronger Bouwmeester
Keith Seabrook
PP1
Nash Crosby Iginla
Pronger Boyle
PP2
Getzlaf Thorton B.Richards
Niedermayer Weber
PK1
Richards Carter
Keith Seabrook
PK2
Marleau St.Louis
Bouwmeester Pronger
|
| Guest3781 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 07:26:41
Nash Crosby Iginla
Marleau Thorton Carter
Richards Getzlaf Perry
St.Louis B.Richards Stamkos
Toews(can play in any situation, Morrow and Doan not having great years)
Niedermayer Weber
Pronger Keith
Bouwmeester Seabrook
Boyle( Strong Consideration given to Green and Doughty)
|
| Guest6823 |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 00:25:02
Thornton - Heatley - Iginla
Getzlaf - Perry - Richards
St. Louis Stamkos - Carter
Crosby - Staal - Nash <-- only because I like the name of that line :-) |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 22:52:21
yep he definately does, but i'm confident he won't too many setup men on that team already Crosby, Thorton, Getzlaf I cant take any of them off for Richards but only Stevie Y knows the answer
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 22:48:54
Tiller, that's more ballsy than my offer! I'd say B. Richards has a lot better shot at the team than Penner!!  |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 22:28:41
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
My third line i maintain is Getzlaf with Perry and St. Louis (if not, J. Carter or B. Richards). Didn't have B. Richards on my radar till just the other day. He continues to put up offensive numbers and i know he's responsible in his own zone.
Beans, i know you're not saying that Penner WILL make it, just that he should be considered. Tell you what, if he makes it, even the taxi squad, i'll change my 'Nucks avatar to an Oilers crest for a month, in your honor of course....
Echo that on Brad Richards but I don't see how having him on a line with Getzlaf, another set up man, works. St. Louis, Toews, or even Eric Staal despite his poor start and injury is a better fit. Believe me its taken a serious effort from Brad for me to even consider him for this team, just read above.
However likewise if Richards is selected i'll swipe out the buds logo for anoilers one
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 22:16:59
Slozo....very well said in regards to your comments about familiarity. I too don't get the exposure to some of these guys as much as others.
Tiller, i agree, it's Crosby with Nash and Iginla and Thornton with Marleau and Heatley as the 1 and 2 lines, in whichever order (to be determined by performance throught the round robin?).
My third line i maintain is Getzlaf with Perry and St. Louis (if not, J. Carter or B. Richards). Didn't have B. Richards on my radar till just the other day. He continues to put up offensive numbers and i know he's responsible in his own zone. Still think it'll be hard to keep Carter and his goal scoring (46 last year, on pace for 35 this year) off this squad.
Still like Morrow/M.Richards/Doan as line 4 but could see either of the wingers switched out for someone else as well? Maybe Carter on line 3, St. Louis on line 4?
Too many choices, and sorry Beans, but a few too many guys ahead of Penner on the depth chart. Would really love to be a fly on the wall in Stevie Y's office to see how much Penners name has come up, cuz he's gotta have their attention!
Beans, i know you're not saying that Penner WILL make it, just that he should be considered. Tell you what, if he makes it, even the taxi squad, i'll change my 'Nucks avatar to an Oilers crest for a month, in your honor of course.... |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 19:50:08
Beans, you made me laugh my ass off with the Penner stuff. Glad we can all be jovial about this . . . I tell ya, sometimes I get too serious about this hockey stuff!
Toews . . . Brad Richards . . . you know, I think there is a little thing called familiarity bias at work with all of us, and I'll take Yzerman's decision over mine, Seriously - I haven't seen Toews that much, and haven't watched a lot of Brad Richards since TB won the cup. But, I know some of these other guys better . . . it's a tough decision that is better made by people who can treat the decision fairly - because they have seen just as much of all the players we debate.
I will make a point to watch more Chicago games when I can, but Dallas? Jeesh . . . long, boring nights . . . yawn.
And, I know we've all pretty much come to a consensus on some of these line combos, as we start to convince ourselves - but it's a fluid game, and there is a guarantee we see a line combo work out that we never saw coming. Another topic maybe once the team is picked?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 17:54:21
Don't worry Josh I'll take it easy on you because I understand what you mean with Penner in that role, however there is too many guys ahead of Penner at this point I just can't see him being ahead of guys like Carter, Stamkos or at this point, as much as it pains me to say, Brad Richards (I still don't see him on the team). Toews deserves a bit of time to continue the roll he has developed as his season was slightly interrupted by a big blueliner from Vancouver. To me Toews has more raw talent and speed than any of these guys, Penner is bigger
Stamkos is more of a sniper i think Jonathan Toews is the perfect inbetween more of a gifted scorer than Penner and bigger and heavier than Stamkos.
Also I agree the San Jose line and the Nash/Crosby/Iginla line are 1a and 1b they will have virtually the same ice time, basically its who will take the opening face off of each game that will determine which is the first line thats about it.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 15:26:37
You know Bean's Ive been thinking about the old line of Penner, Getzlaf and Perry. I know I'm gonna get lambasted by Tiller and the like, but maybe that wouldn't be a bad line. Not as offensive as Heatley, Marleau and Thorton but size wise, and skill wise they are comparable. Im figuring Iginla, Nash and Crosby for a lock on the 1st or second line. I really wont have a problem with who the 4th line is between all of the suggested players so far. I would like to see Doan, Smyth and either of the Richards suggested. Toews and the Richard not selcted to fill the taxi squad.
|
| Sensfan101 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
quote:
[i]
Couldn't agree more about Thorton over Savard as the Setup man for that team.
Also perfect analysis about the 2 snipers thats why I feel the number one line should be Crosby flanked by Nash and Iginla, Two Richard trophy winners centered by one of the games most elite setup men.
I'd like to see the line of Getzlaf Nash and Heatley from the world Juniors kept together
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:15:07
Penner plays road hockey infront of rexall during the Olympics.
As for Staal I'd love nothing more than for him to elevate his play to a level worthy of making the team because I think it was crimnal he wasnt on the turin team.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:11:32
Ok Tiller, I can agree with that.
But where does Penner play?? He's a lock right??
I would really like to see Eric Staal there and for him to play well. He's got the skills to be a difference maker more so (in my opinion) than Carter or Richards.
I don't know where my head goes with Carter and Richards. Philly is a team I can see do really well in the playoffs and these guys are the pistons on that team. I just don't see them over other guys like Staal(when he's on), Brad Richards, et al. |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 13:08:00
Toews does have that ability I agree, my big thing is that it would be foolish to break up Getzlaf and Perry as well as the San Jose line there is so much pre-made chemistry there and ya the accompanying winger on the thrid line could go to a host of guys:
St. Louis
Stamkos
E. Staal (outside chance unless he lights it up over the next month)
Carter
Toews
The same goes for the 4th line you know my opinions on Richards (lock as 4th line centre) but anyone of:
Smyth (unlikely now being on IR)
Morrow
Doan
Lucic
Carter
Toews
J. Staal
My feeling is that Toews and Carter could be interchanged on those 2 lines depending on the game situation and opponent.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:59:49
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Wow, full moon tonight?? Completely agree with Tiller. With the exception of Toews. I put him 4th line centre. Has the skills to absolutely shut down ANYONE. I like Toews with Morrow and Penner.
KIDDING....
How about Toews with Morrow and Doan and put St. Louis with PennerPerry and Getzlaf. Put a little speed and stank on that line.
Hey, what do you guys think about Penner
LOL Gold.
Toews is a great player with a bright future. Having said that, I still don't have a spot for him on my line up. I don't envy Stevie Y one bit.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:56:55
Wow, full moon tonight?? Completely agree with Tiller. With the exception of Toews. I put him 4th line centre. Has the skills to absolutely shut down ANYONE. I like Toews with Morrow and Penner.
KIDDING....
How about Toews with Morrow and Doan and put St. Louis with PennerPerry and Getzlaf. Put a little speed and stank on that line.
Hey, what do you guys think about Penner |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 12:34:56
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
In my opinion, Thorton and Savard on the same team is not needed, let alone the same line. They have both proven to be pure offensive set up players. Neither will see a minute of PK time if they made the team, so they are there purely to set up the snipers (Nash/Heatley/Etc).
That being said, I take 6'3" and 235 lbs with speed and strength over 5'10" and 195 lbs with speed.
It's very much the same as (to me) Getzlaf and M.Richards. Both are very very similar players in ability and skill. I would rather take one of the two and use the other spot for a players with a different skill set over having 2 players very much the same.
The ONLY places where I would want to have 2 players with the similar skill sets is the Snipers(I want a couple at least) and on defense. Having 3 defensive pairing with one offensive and one defensive focused player is the most effective as well as the most versitile for PK and PP situations.
All other positions, I want a balance of different talent. I want some fast, some strong, some passing, some scoring, some shut down, some of everything.
But not two of anything.
Couldn't agree more about Thorton over Savard as the Setup man for that team.
Also perfect analysis about the 2 snipers thats why I feel the number one line should be Crosby flanked by Nash and Iginla, Two Richard trophy winners centered by one of the games most elite setup men. Similar situation I believe is leaving the San Jose line intact with Thorton flanked by Heatley and Marleau this also brings size with all guys being over 6'2 220lbs. And then the Third line with Getzlaf (Anaheim's Thorton) at centre with his red hot linemate Perry and Jonathan Toews who has come back great from his concussion.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 10:14:23
In my opinion, Thorton and Savard on the same team is not needed, let alone the same line. They have both proven to be pure offensive set up players. Neither will see a minute of PK time if they made the team, so they are there purely to set up the snipers (Nash/Heatley/Etc).
That being said, I take 6'3" and 235 lbs with speed and strength over 5'10" and 195 lbs with speed.
It's very much the same as (to me) Getzlaf and M.Richards. Both are very very similar players in ability and skill. I would rather take one of the two and use the other spot for a players with a different skill set over having 2 players very much the same.
The ONLY places where I would want to have 2 players with the similar skill sets is the Snipers(I want a couple at least) and on defense. Having 3 defensive pairing with one offensive and one defensive focused player is the most effective as well as the most versitile for PK and PP situations.
All other positions, I want a balance of different talent. I want some fast, some strong, some passing, some scoring, some shut down, some of everything.
But not two of anything. |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 08:09:42
Some good thoughts there, guest 1462.
Some quick points though:
1) Savard was not invited to the Team Canada training camp, and was specifically referred to in many questions to Steve Yzerman. Stevey Y stated that he wants players to fulfill different roles, and that is why he invited guys like Cleary and Lucic and stiff-armed Savard. So, if he didn't want him then, he is very likely to not want him now.
I understand that many may have wanted him on THEIR team Canada, but he isn't going to be on THE team Canada - so there's no point in pushing something that ain't gonna happen.
2) Your Stamkos on the second line idea - intriguing. Can't find fault with it, other than arguing for a player one thinks will do better. Myself, I'd put someone else there (Marleau) who also has the familiarity, experience, and skill - but Stamkos is flying these days, so it's a fair enoug pick. Still, for a short tournament, I'd go with familiarity if all the skill is there - which it is.
3) As others have mentioned, playing on NHL ice this time.
4) Interesting . . . Richards and Richards with St.Louis. I like it! Brad Richards has played wing before if I remember correctly, and that right there is a very dangerous defensively responsible forward line right there!
At any rate, you have two out of the three I'd have there (M.Richards and St.Louis) and really, after that it's pretty interchangeable. Brad Richards has lots of experience, he's back on top of his game, and he's got everything you'd need from this line.
5) Disagree with Doan or Jordan Staal as your 13th . . . somehow, I don't see Doan getting in, and I'd have to think Jordan is a very longshot with all the other guys around with more experience and better stats.
Agree with E.Staal, Morrow, Lecavalier. But not Smyth . . . he has definitely found his game again. May have lost a step, but experience, willing to play any position (versatility), and playing once again with a high skill level - on the NHL ice, I'd take him over Doan as the 13th.
The one person I'd leave the door open for is Eric Staal - if he really starts to pick it up once more coming into December, he might be the 13th guy.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 07:59:44
guest 1462..... As the other guest pointed out, the games are going to be played on NHL sized ice. GM Place in Vancouver is not changing the surface to the usual European sized ice. This surely must make you rethink your roster seeing as some of the decisions you made were based directly on the ice size? |
| tbar |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 07:09:43
Guest 1462 I would get sick of watching Thornton and Savard pass the puck 20 times to each other because nobody wants to shoot and then loosing the puck. Joe needs to play with Heater because he will shoot and one other player who likes to put the puck on the net. |
| Guest5382 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 06:34:50
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1462
My take:
Heatley-Thornton-Savard
Where's Marleau? Marleau doesn't carry a team, Savard does... he is a skill player that is underrated. He has a shot and can make plays -the only quesiton would be whether or not he can play RW. Heatley-Thornton has been the greatest duo this year. Thornton feeds, Heatley scores -the top pure goal scorer in the nation (still). Savard adds defensive mindedness and alot of poise (how many Bruins forwards do you know besides Savard? Thought so.)
B.Richards/Doan-M.Richards-St.Louis
The hardest line for me to pick; I've noticed alot of you guys throwing in a 'grinder' line with Smyth/Morrow/Richards/Staal or whatnot. Don't forget about how much bigger the surface is and the premium placed on puck movers and skaters... I don't like Morrow's lack of offense production (same with Smyth..)
Defense
Pronger-Niedermeyer
Boyle-Green
Keith-Doughty
.... but remember how open the ice is in Olympic hockey. A pairing like Boyle and Green will shoot he lights out and move the puck like no other pairing we've seen before. Keith-Doughty are solid stay at home blue-liners who are having career seasons.
So Savard is more defensive minded than Marleau? This is based on what? Marleau is the better fit with the Thornton - Heatley duo than Savard.
They are playing on NHL ice.
Smyth is not producing? Last I check he had more points than Crosby. Morrow is only 0.7PPG. If that is not production please tell what is?
So Green who is not such a defensive defensemen gets in but Marleau who is more a defensive forward than Savard is out. How about some consistency? |
| Guest1462 |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 02:43:03
My take:
Offense
Nash-Crosby-Iginla
This should be your top line, no matter who you are.
Heatley-Thornton-Savard
Where's Marleau? Marleau doesn't carry a team, Savard does... he is a skill player that is underrated. He has a shot and can make plays -the only quesiton would be whether or not he can play RW. Heatley-Thornton has been the greatest duo this year. Thornton feeds, Heatley scores -the top pure goal scorer in the nation (still). Savard adds defensive mindedness and alot of poise (how many Bruins forwards do you know besides Savard? Thought so.)
Stamkos-Getzlaf-Perry
Getzlaf and Perry have unquestionable chemistry; I'd have them as my second line if just Thornton and Heatley haven't developed instant chemistry. Now Stamkos is a pure scorer who has elevated his game; and represents the 'youth' as he continues to develop and have his career season. Bobby Ryan is good, now imagine this line with Stamkos or St. Louis. Too bad Marian Gaborik isn't Canadian.
B.Richards/Doan-M.Richards-St.Louis
The hardest line for me to pick; I've noticed alot of you guys throwing in a 'grinder' line with Smyth/Morrow/Richards/Staal or whatnot. Don't forget about how much bigger the surface is and the premium placed on puck movers and skaters. While 'grinders' are necessary, I think you'd want to veer more towards the 'gritty' forwards that can skate. As such, I don't like to throw on guys who simply grind; I would want them to be a threat in open ice as well... I don't like Morrow's lack of offense production (same with Smyth..) and Staal has been hurt and hasn't earned a spot on this roster based on his play in the last 2 seasons. Mike Richards... easily one of the top 3 two way forwards in the game. His offensive production isn't where it should be, but understand that he plays for the flyers and sees time on the 3rd line as a shutdown forward when the likes of Danny Briere are healthy and in the line-up.
13th man:Shane Doan / Brad Richards / Jordan Staal:
Staal gives the team an option against a high powered offense; slot him in with Richards or put him in a shutdown role on the 3rd. He's done it in the playoffs and he can dominate boards. Richards/Doan to me are interchangeable parts on that 4th line.
Notable Omissions:
Eric Staal - Has done nothing in the past 2+ seasons. Even when the Hurricanes won the cup, he was the best player... but wasn't MVP caliber (see Cam Ward). He has struggled in the last 2 seasons, injury or not, given the depth of Team Canada he does not deserve a spot on the roster.
Brendan Morrow / Ryan Smyth - He's lost a step offensively, and is overrated as a checking/grinding forward. Richards is easily a better choice, and Brad Richards is the cog that runs Dallas when he is healthy. Morrow is a utility player, and we have plenty of skill upfront already. Besides maybe Heatley, mostly all the guys above play defense exceptionally well for forwards. We do not need more stay at home forwards.
Vincent Lecavalier - Vinny has been struggling. Stamkos and St. Louis are a strong tandem. Until he finds his dominant-self back Vinny needs to stay at home. The only 'iffy' thing about my lines (I feel) is not having Stamkos and St. Louis on the same line. But would you break up Getzlaf-Perry or Thornton-Heatley for Stamkos-St.Louis? Didn't think so.
Defense
Pronger-Niedermeyer
Boyle-Green
Keith-Doughty
Pronger-Niedermeyer played together for Canada and won a Stanley Cup. Nieds has lost a step, but he's still defensive minded and has been Captain for a long time, bring the experience to the younger D. A lot of people have shy'ed away from Green because he's such a 'run and gun' defenseman, but remember how open the ice is in Olympic hockey. A pairing like Boyle and Green will shoot he lights out and move the puck like no other pairing we've seen before. Keith-Doughty are solid stay at home blue-liners who are having career seasons.
7th man: [b]Blake / J.Bo
Blake is overlooked -he had a monster year last year and has been injured most of this year. He brings experience and can still bang with the best of them. I'm worried about his health though. J-Bo would be his replacement.
[b]Goalies
Brodeur / Fleury / Luongo
Brodeur is consistent and has the experience. He is solid and consistently touted as the toughest goalie to play against by NHL'ers, despite his age. He has the experience and is a proven winner. Fleury is a close second -he is streaky, but has two Stanley Cup final appearances in the last 2 years, and plays great under pressure. Luongo.. needs to pick up his game.
|
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 21:25:30
Beans then put in your quote someone likely to fill that "spot" and stop giving the ol' "who me" song and dance when something is taken in the context you clearly meant it.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:21:06
What hurts my credibility is when people can't read. If you look back on any of my posts, not once did I say that Mike Fisher would make the team.
I quote:
"Don't be surprised to see a Mike Fisher/Jarrett Stoll type player make the squad"
That does not say that Mike Fisher will make the team. It says that a player with the mold of a Fisher or a Stoll wouldn't be a surprise.
|
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 13:02:20
Beans, you are entitled to your opinion on Penner (or anyone else) but it hurts your credibility when you go to such lengths to defend yoru argument about the Fishers/ Fischers.
Now the actual Mike Fisher to make team Canada remidns me too much of Zaumer making the team (at a time when argubale there was weaker offensive talent than now) and that was considered a diaster. I think there are better players, who may not be as good as Fisher is at skaing forechecking, defense, but are pretty good at those qualities and can also score. Mike Richards, Doan, Smyth (injured I know) and Morrow might fit that bill. Or who will be this teams Dale Hawerchuk who was a scorer converted to a third liner (and still an offensive threat) from the 87 canada cup... for whatever reason, I feel like Lecavalier could do that.
as far as the penner argument, it seems clear to me that players stock in Yzerman's eyes will rise and fall depending on how they are playing this year, but (and this is where Penner gets knocked out) only if they have played at a high caliber for a few years prior. No one is looking at Rich Peverly, and nor should they. Penner might turn his career around, or he might be like mark Parrish or Brian Savage used to get off to hot starts and fade badly. His failure to play well teh last few years, means he won't get significant consideration.
Now you might ask about the mistake not taking Crosby, but he did play at a igh level prior, and was a rookie, so its not the same thing as having played at a low level, which Penner has the past few years.
that doesn't mean he ought not to get some consideration, but i'd suggest only modest consideration at best and then quickly ruled out. |
| Mikey Boy |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 12:34:24
Everyone can sit here and talk bout Penner, Cammalleri, Mike Richards and Jeff Carter...but the one we should be talking about is the biggest surprise and thank god i took him very late in our draft is BRAD Richards. This guy better be on Team Canada if he stays healthy! I watched the Dallas game on Saturday...the guy can play with everyone in any situation. He is in the right spots at the right times, he's the first one back to backcheck, he penalty killed let lead the PP. 28 pts already, B.Richards should center our third line.
MP |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 12:06:13
Of course Mike Richards hasn't had to play the grinder role but to label him as anything but a power forward capable of doing the best job on an olympic fourth line is ridiculous. His numbers are better than all the guys mentioned for that role except for Ryan smyth or maybe brendan morrow. With Smyth's injury i think he's out of contention for the team although i'd like to see him there still, that leaves Richards and Morrow, both guys are capable of doing the job well. I give the nod to Richards based on higher scoring touch and better penalty killing ability.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Guest4687 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 11:06:07
Milan Lucic is going to be on the shut down line, i watched him as a Giant and now as Bruin, excellent all round player. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:52:38
Hey Alex, it's not just Olympic teams, it all International Teams. The Juniors always take a couple of non-offensive stars. The World Championships always take a couple of other stars. The Former Canada Cups always took a couple of non-offensive stars.
Take a look as what many consider to the be the greatest teams Canada has ever produced. I look back at the 87 Canada Cup team(the best team of my generation) and see names like Brent Sutter, Claude Lemieux, and Doug Crossman. They sure weren't on that squad to score!!
The formula has worked for decades. It's about balance and finding the right players to play in the right spots. That's my point. Who the player is going to be is irrelevant.
I am just saying that don't be surprised to see a non-typical name or two on the roster. All offensive does not win. All defense does not win. Balance wins.
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| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:30:52
Beans, i know you were being sarcastic with the comment to Tiller about Fisher vs Fischer, and i too was only kidding with the spelling correction comment. But, don't come back on here and try to convince us that you thought he was actually talking about some other guy on hockeydb. For the record, i looked and here's what's listed:
Mike Fischer (Def) 1964-1971 (minor pro)
Mike Fischer 1986-1987 (played one game in WHL)
Mike Fisher 1981-1983 (11 GP in the BCJHL)
Mike Fisher - The one who i believe we all know is the guy in this discussion
Surely you didn't think Tiller was referring to one of these other dudes?
Regardless guys, there's no point getting upset over peoples opinions on who will or who should make the team. I'd take Richards over Toews but Beans would take Toews over Richards? SO WHAT? We're not the ones picking the teams.
Beans, i still don't think that with guys like Morrow and Doan around that we're gonna see any real surprises like a Fisher/Stoll type player making it. The guys who had this chance would be guys like Lucic and Cleary who were invited to camp but have not impressed enough to this point in the season to have a very good chance.
While you mention " I think the one thing we are all missing is that the successful team Canada from the past all have a certain mix of grinder/defensive type forwards." i don't necessarily see that being the case. Like i said in my previous post, only Nolan and Peca helped Canada win gold. The others, if i recall correctly, helped them place 4th and 7th? Oh, and you could throw in the immortal Rob Zamuner as well and his copper 4th place medal from Nagano. I understand what you're saying in that you don't think they should take guys who will have to play out of the roles they play for their current teams, but that's gonna happen to some degree. It's not like M. Richards can't play at both ends. He was nominated for the Selke, no?
Guys like Penner and Cammalleri bring "stuff" to the table and could fit on this team. However, we can't ignore the fact that a hot start for a guy who wasn't on the radar in the past year or so won't be enough. If it was, we may very well find Rich Peverley centering our third line? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 09:38:31
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
Thanks for the spelling lesson beans i'll get the name of your personal support worker later. As for Mike Fisher do you just have an issue going with the best players available because back to your old buddy Mike Richards he has one less point than Fisher and plays much more on the penalty kill. Despite your percieved lack of leadership skills and winning peedigree (despite captaining a team to a world junior championship as well as winning a a Memorial Cup with the Kitchener Rangers and Calder Cup with the Philadephia Phantoms) Mike RIchards is a better player in the grinder role you feel Fisher is so suited for. Seeing as you like to use remote stats so much Fisher avg's 0.52 pts per game over his career where as Richards avg's 0.78. Richards is a captain, Fisher is an A. And Fischer has won precisely jack s*** over his career.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
ok, first of all it was not a spelling correction. There are 2 players listed on hockey DB as Mike "Fischer" so I thought we were talking about two different players. Let's not get too excited about it.
Secondly, if you talk about my first post it said 'Mike Fisher/Jarrett Stoll" type player. I never said either of them would make the team. I simply said a type of player who is very solid defensively and often called upon to shut down the other teams best forwards. Much like a Mike Peca did in 2002.
And again, if people can not comprehend the simple posts I am making, I could care less. If people think that Mike Richards is a better grinder/shut down type guy when he has never played that role in his entire career. So be it. We will agree to disagree.
I would put Mike Richards on my team, but not in the 4th line grinder/PK/shutdown role. He would be 2nd or 3rd line centre. Unfortunately, those spots are already filled on my team by Getzlaf and Thornton.
Richards is more than likely on my taxi squad, in case on of my top 9 forwards gets injured. |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 09:05:11
Hmm. My opinions on these "fringe players" to make team Canada:
1. Penner and Fisher are not true grinders at all. Fisher is closer than Penner ever will be, but still - not quite there. Fisher has been on occasion a decent second liner, same as Penner. This year, Penner has been playing like a true first liner, and Fisher a solid second liner. I wouldn't look much more deeply into their fast starts other than that.
2. Penner, Fisher, Cammalleri . . . do not have the special teams pedigree or ability, nor the toughness needed or required to make this team as a skilled forward who needs to fulfill a certain, specific role.
We are full up on pure skill players - see Thornton, Crosby, Heatley. We are really stacked up with very skilled forwards with grit/toughness - see Nash, Iggy, Getzlaf, M.Richards, Carter, Perry.
We need SKILLED ROLE PLAYERS.
Roles Needed?
- penalty kill, shorthanded situations
- forecheckers
- solid defensive forwards
If you are not a forward on the brink of making the cut who is EXCELLENT at one or more of these areas, you are not going to make the cut.
Because frankly, more than three players off the top of my head are excellent in two or all of these areas - Morrow, Doan, St. Louis, Smyth, Marleau, Cleary, MacDonald, Toews, etc etc etc. Only three of these guys can make it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Tiller33 |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 08:31:49
Thanks for the spelling lesson beans i'll get the name of your personal support worker later. As for Mike Fisher do you just have an issue going with the best players available because back to your old buddy Mike Richards he has one less point than Fisher and plays much more on the penalty kill. Despite your percieved lack of leadership skills and winning peedigree (despite captaining a team to a world junior championship as well as winning a a Memorial Cup with the Kitchener Rangers and Calder Cup with the Philadephia Phantoms) Mike RIchards is a better player in the grinder role you feel Fisher is so suited for. Seeing as you like to use remote stats so much Fisher avg's 0.52 pts per game over his career where as Richards avg's 0.78. Richards is a captain, Fisher is an A. And Fischer has won precisely jack s*** over his career.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 23:53:38
Beans, easy on the spelling mistake comments
I know where you're going with your comments about Fisher, however, he's another who i put in a class with Cammy and Penner. Not quite there. Not to say Canada couldn't win with these guys, nor am i saying they might not be better, but simply put, these guys were never really on the radar. Yes, they're having great seasons, but still have not done enough to unseat someone. I've maintained all along, if you need a grinder type line, it's Morrow, Richards (Mike) and Doan as they can play both defensive and offensive roles. Is Fisher a better fit here? Honestly, tell me if you think he is. I respect that he's a good player and certainly could fit in, but i just don't see him standing much of a chance.
Thing with Fisher is this....Guys like Cammy and Penner are having excellent first halves of the seaon (first third?). But, a guy like Fisher really can't simply show up on the scoresheet through 30+ games and make this squad. That's not the sort of role he'd play if he had a shot at playing for Canada. Pretty tough for him to get any consideration.
Bottom line is this (and correct me if i'm wrong).....Canada has taken some "role" players in the past. Of the ones you (Beans) just mentioned a couple helped them to a gold medal (Peca/Nolan) but the rest failed to do so. Now, i'm not blaming them for the countries failure, but when you have guys like Doan, Richards, Morrow, Smyth, etc, there's really no need for guys like Fisher IMO. |
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