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Guest9184
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 Posted - 03/28/2012 : 17:21:37
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Poll Question:
What stat best determines the overall value of a goalie?
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rross
Top Prospect
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 07:04:27
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Save % far outweighs any other statistical measure. It is the only stat that determines quality, consistency, and ability of the goalie. The others can be influenced by team attributes.
Not to say that save % isn't influenced by good team defence(ie getting loose pucks, clearing rebounds etc), but overall, this is minor compared to how team strategies and abilities can affect GAA, Wins etc.
Go Habs Go!! |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 08:05:04
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WINS. I give you Grant Fuhr. Made the saves when he HAD to. That's what ANY team needs to go all the way...a goalie who comes up with the big save when it's needed most. The rest of the stats just look nice.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
Edited by - Lee Marshall on 03/29/2012 08:05:42 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 08:14:20
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I'm with rross, but save% def does have something to do with the team in front of you as well. Not just clearing pucks and rebounds, etc, but also where the shots come from (quality of chances) is big. A goalie can make 50 saves in a game, but if they're all from the outside or the blue line with no traffic in front, it may be a very easy night. Conversely, a goalie can allow 3 goals on 20 shots, but if he's facing 8 two on one's and a coulple breakaways, is it fair to say he's not done as well?
Lee, i completely disagree with "wins". Fuhr was a great goalie, but if you look at his wins and cups, etc, it makes him look better than he is! I don't need to remind you of the offensive talent he had in front of him, right?  |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 08:32:40
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Nor do you need to remind me of the confidence that "offensive talent" had in him in order that they could take off at will for the opposing goal knowing full well that Grant would bail them out if things went south.
There's a term you don't hear as much these days. "Money goalie". Those were the guys who didn't necessarily win the Vezina...just the cup.
I'm staying with WINS. The goalie who wins the last game of the season is the best...every time. [or do they hold Vezina Trophy parades that I'm not aware of?]
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 10:31:53
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Lee, i don't for a second think that "confidence in their goalie" had ANYTHING to do with being a reason for the Oilers dynasty teams to feel free to play that style! If you do, so be it. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying he was a scrub or anything, but i don't think he was the best goalie in the NHL at any point of his career no matter how many games or how many cups he won.
Your "money goalie" in my mind, is a guy who is CONSISTENTLY good when he needs to be. In your post, you allude to a guy like Anti Niemi being a "Money Goalie" since he won the cup. Personally, i think he's a goalie who got hot at the right time, played his best hockey to a level he may never match again, and won a cup.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 11:17:55
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Grant Fuhr did not have a single season with the Oilers of better than 3.00 GAA or a save percentage of above .900. I know, it was different times and there were definitely games where Fuhr saved the Oilers. However, let's not forget that out of 820 potential games in 10 seasons with the Oilers, he played 423 of them. Almost 1/2 the time it was another goalie in net for the Oilers and their success did not change.
Point being, the Oilers made Grant Fuhr not the other way around. Any other goalie would have likely won, kind like Andy Moog did when ever he played the games that Fuhr did not.
Want a few more examples of why wins doesn't measure a goalie?? Chris Osgood, Mike Vernon, and Tom Barrasso. All goalies with a lot of wins and absolutely amazing teams in front of them.
Nope, I think wins is not the most telling stat at all. I too like save % with a little GAA sprinkled in. A goalie, at least in today's NHL, does not win without a save % above .900 and a GAA of less than 2.60. Statistically speaking, Chicago and Philly are the only teams in the NHL's top 10 who rank in the bottom 10 in Save % and GAA. Conversely, 8 of the worst teams in the NHL also rank worse than 20th in both GAA and save %.
Coincidence?? I think not. |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 13:27:06
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| i said save percentage. because although one can say that is influenced depending on the team in front of the goaling. the save percentage is the only one that actually calulates how often he stops the pucks that make it to him. |
Edited by - mandree888 on 03/29/2012 13:27:57 |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 14:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Point being, the Oilers made Grant Fuhr not the other way around.
Couldn't agree more with beans, the answer to me is save % as well, for obvious reasons
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 16:40:44
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| Wins and GAA as % is a little deceiving as shots from the perimeter, center ice, bad angles are all counted in this cat. when say, 40 shots a game a fired, how many are real scoring threats? |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 10:23:39
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Grant played well for Toronto...got us Dave Andrychuk and all those goals in a trade with Buffalo. I believe he also did reasonably well for the Blues. At any rate...belittle him, or not, you guys are welcome to your opinions and I'm not trying to change 'em. I'm staying with wins though. Most wins...wins.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 10:58:37
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, obviously there are a lot of good young Goalies out there Lundquvist is clearly the best goalie in the world Followed closely the likes of Rinne and Quick. then you have the group that you could make an argument to put in any order Rask Thomas Price Howard Miller are all great and any given year these guys are great.
a guy i would like to mention is Braden Holtby, i really think this guy will be a big big big time goalie, he has the demeanor he has the skill and the size his technique is great, plus he never seems to give up on a a play, at 22 look for this kid to develop into a great one over the next 4 years,,
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Guest4465
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Posted - 03/31/2012 : 05:26:02
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| Save % for sure. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 10:26:12
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| I am gonna go with Wins. The great goalies find a way to win regardless of what team is in front of them and where the shots are coming from. I remember when Irbe would stand on his head in front of a crappy team let in a few but win the game. You look at the greats from recent memory and they didnt always have the best defensive team in front of them and that is why they standout. A average goalie with a great defensive team with have inflated stats. Take that goalie and put him on a weak defensive team or a offensive team and you can usually find out whether its the team or the goalie who deserves the stats. Either way an average team with an outstanding goalie will find a way to win. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 11:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I am gonna go with Wins. The great goalies find a way to win regardless of what team is in front of them and where the shots are coming from. I remember when Irbe would stand on his head in front of a crappy team let in a few but win the game. You look at the greats from recent memory and they didnt always have the best defensive team in front of them and that is why they standout. A average goalie with a great defensive team with have inflated stats. Take that goalie and put him on a weak defensive team or a offensive team and you can usually find out whether its the team or the goalie who deserves the stats. Either way an average team with an outstanding goalie will find a way to win.
Well, seeing as Miika Kipprusoff has had one of the best seasons of his career, surely the flames must be one of the favorites for the cup, right? Wait a minute....what'd'ya mean they're not gonna make the playoffs???
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 14:13:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall
Nor do you need to remind me of the confidence that "offensive talent" had in him in order that they could take off at will for the opposing goal knowing full well that Grant would bail them out if things went south.
There's a term you don't hear as much these days. "Money goalie". Those were the guys who didn't necessarily win the Vezina...just the cup.
I'm staying with WINS. The goalie who wins the last game of the season is the best...every time. [or do they hold Vezina Trophy parades that I'm not aware of?]
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
Are you saying that when Edmonton won their first cup in 84 and Andy Moog was in net for the last game, that he was better then Grant Fuhr?
I think wins has something to do with a goalies greatness and especially playoffs wins (look at Luongo) But I don't think the best goalie is the goalie with the most wins. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2012 : 16:37:50
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I think of it this way:
Winning is a symptom of a good save%, a good GAA, and playing on a decent team.
A good save %, a good GAA, and playing on a decent team are not symptoms of winning. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2012 : 07:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall
Grant played well for Toronto...got us Dave Andrychuk and all those goals in a trade with Buffalo. I believe he also did reasonably well for the Blues. At any rate...belittle him, or not, you guys are welcome to your opinions and I'm not trying to change 'em. I'm staying with wins though. Most wins...wins.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
Well Lee, I don't think anyone was trying to belittle Grant Fuhr, or a guy like Osgood - we mostly respect those guys, they won a lot of hockey games, and got hot at times to allow their stacked teams to win games when they couldn't score 4 goals that night! I kid, I kid . . . they were very good goalies, AT TIMES.
But fact is, comparing their save percentage to their compatriots in the same year and era, their numbers don't stack up - and that is on a great team, a championship team, one which makes all your stats better, in fact.
So bottom line Lee, I strongly disagree that judging wins above all else is what determines a goalie's greatness.
For measure,
first think of your top 10 best goalies of ALL TIME, during your "watching live" era. Write it down . . . got it?
no peeking!
Now here are the top 10 winningest goalies of our era:
Brodeur (1st - 625 wins and counting)
Roy (2nd - 551 wins)
Belfour (3rd - 484 wins)
Joseph (4th - 454 wins)
Fuhr (9th - 403 wins)
Osgood (10th - 401 wins)
Hasek (11th - 389 wins)
Vernon (12th - 385 wins)
Vanbiesbrouck (13th - 374 wins)
Moog (14th - 372 wins)
Barrasso (15th - 369 wins)
Yep, a lot of the true greats are there, no doubt . . . and in two more seasons, Luongo will surely pass Barrasso and start making his way up this ladder. In another 4 seasons, ditto for Lundqvist.
But seriously now, did your top ten greatest goalies of your generation include Grant Fuhr, Andy Moog, Mike Vernon, John Vanbiesbrouck and Chris Osgood?
'Cause mine didn't.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2012 : 09:12:22
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Slozo - The goalies from the past era played to ties Slozo. The current generation has the opportunity to win in shootouts. That is a lot of extra w's. The numbers above are skewed.
Beans - a good team can keep shots to the outside and mitigate scoring chances. This can make a save % look pretty good.
Just playing devil's advocate. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2012 : 12:59:06
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And just who are the top ten losingest goalies of our era? I will try to find it, but I imagine that man of the same names will appear, simply due to volume of games played.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013. |
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Guest6495
( )
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Posted - 04/01/2012 : 13:37:32
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Slozo - The goalies from the past era played to ties Slozo. The current generation has the opportunity to win in shootouts. That is a lot of extra w's. The numbers above are skewed.
Beans - a good team can keep shots to the outside and mitigate scoring chances. This can make a save % look pretty good.
Just playing devil's advocate.
Agree with you on this. But then conversely, wouldn't his GAA, wins and save % all be good? How then Leigh would you determine the best statistical measue for a goalie based on this?? How can you argue that save % is not the best statistical measue of a goalie based on these factors??
Just playing devils advocate |
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rross
Top Prospect
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2012 : 13:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6495
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Slozo - The goalies from the past era played to ties Slozo. The current generation has the opportunity to win in shootouts. That is a lot of extra w's. The numbers above are skewed.
Beans - a good team can keep shots to the outside and mitigate scoring chances. This can make a save % look pretty good.
Just playing devil's advocate.
Agree with you on this. But then conversely, wouldn't his GAA, wins and save % all be good? How then Leigh would you determine the best statistical measue for a goalie based on this?? How can you argue that save % is not the best statistical measue of a goalie based on these factors??
Just playing devils advocate
Sorry, forgot to login
Go Habs Go!! |
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rross
Top Prospect
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2012 : 14:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall
WINS. I give you Grant Fuhr. Made the saves when he HAD to. That's what ANY team needs to go all the way...a goalie who comes up with the big save when it's needed most. The rest of the stats just look nice.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
"a goalie who comes up with a big save when it's needed most". I think most people in the hockey world would have more confidence in a goalie with a high save % and save % alone. Are you telling me that a goalie with a sub .900 save % is going to be the guy consistently to come up with the big save?? Probably not. Maybe once in awhile like Grant Fuhr, but not consistently.
When talking about "value" of a goalie, I'll give you this.
Arguably, the top 3 goalies of all time are:
Martin Brodeur, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek. I personally think a few of today's goalies are better, but for practicality, I will use these 3 since they have had full careers and their stats speak for themselves.
All have save %'s above .900 and are ranked 2nd, 1st and 10th respectively in playoff wins.
Furthermore, whether a goalie gets more quality chances against him or not, it all boils down to how well the goalie is positionally, and plays a contained game. If he's in the right position, and is in control of his game ie. containment, he will make the save. I don't care what kind of shot it is, breakaway, 2 on 1 whatever. He will make the save if he is in control of his game. If he's getting beat because his team is giving up too many chances, I don't buy it that it's the "team's" fault. He's out of position, or not reading the play, or not tracking properly.
nuff said.
BTW, I have been a goalie coach/instructor for over 10 years at various levels, so I'm not just making this stuff up.
Go Habs Go!! |
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Goalie Judgement 
