| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2015 : 11:40:15
|
Poll Question:
Did the Toronto Maple Leafs make the right move in firing Head Coach Randy Carlyle?
|
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2015 : 14:19:47
|
I was looking for "c"
C.) It's a start!
 |
 |
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2015 : 20:38:47
|
Yes . . . and Yes (C - it's a start!)
I am still left shaking my head why such a blatantly stupid move would be made in keeping Carlyle while firing his assistants for him, knowing with near certainty you'd be firing him mid season or at the very least at the end of it. It's not like I was the only one shaking my head, wondering "why keep him?"
At any rate, better late than never. Even if it doesn't have a pallpable effect on winning percentage, hopefully it assists in not engendering a further downward slide for young developing guys like Reilly, and even Gardiner (I know he's not that young anymore, but he's a D-man). Needed to happen.
Now about Kessel and the other core members . . .
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
markliso
Rookie
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2015 : 08:02:22
|
At the time of the firing, both Calgary and Toronto had the exact same record.
Calgary renewed their head coach, Toronto fired theirs.
Is Calgary overachieving? Possibly. Is Toronto underachieving? Hardly.
I think the roster they are skating at this time, they are doing pretty good this season and in the playoff hunt. Obviously, if they tank it again in the second half like they always do, here is the pre-emptive move to possibly avoid that. I personally wouldn't have fired him in the middle of the season like this and waited it out, but being out here in Alberta, I don't fully keep up on everything the leafs do and the details of the organization.
Just my opinion. I think expectations of this particular core group are way too high considering the talent level they are currently skating with.
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2015 : 11:00:48
|
There will always be unreasonable expectations on the Leaf players and management. That's I just the way it is. But as far as unfair pressure, I disagree. I think the rationale provided by Nonis is pretty clear in that the team was and has been very inconsistent. The team went through periods where they looked like a top 5 in the league squad to stretches of performing like a bottom 5 team. Carlyle had ample time to prove he could get this team off that roller coaster and he couldn't do it. Time for a new perspective behind the bench.
I think it could have and should have happened in the offseason when the assistants were all punted.
What's interesting is that Leaf fans are starting to talk about Kessel as a guy that needs to go. I don't necessarily agree as I think the issue isn't Kessel as much as what's still missing. Kessel is not a player that a team should be built around. He is a great #2 or #3 piece but he is not the guy. Not only do I think he doesn't want to be the guy by I think he isn't good enough to be the guy. If they were to move him for someone that can be the cornerstone of their franchise then I would agree to move him. But if they move him for someone similar they are not really moving their franchise ahead.
|
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2015 : 12:55:35
|
I agree with the firing, but think the timing was off. The Leaf's are contending, but are at risk of losing this season now. Not saying the team wasn't in jeopardy of losing the playoff positioning, if they kept him, but there was little chance this team could do damage in the post season, if they kept staying the course. The problem is this firing was long overdue and I don't see a new coach coming in before the end of the season and changing things enough to help now. This is a move for future seasons.
I don't know where all the Kessel hate is coming from now and the timing of it is coming on the back of a long overdue firing of a coach who cant get his entire team to perform possession wise, not a single players underperformance. Kessel is doing exactly what Kessel has done for his entire career and unless people are now having unreal expectations of him, they shouldn't heap a coaches firing on Kessel. There are a lot of reasons outside of one offensive player, why this team has poor possession numbers and is trending downwards in the standings. A lot of that could be the coach, but I am of the opinion that the roster is not strong enough behind a very talented forward and a few other reasonably decent players. Another coach and implemented system might be what this team needs. Could it hurt, yes for this season, but long term this will only help. Plus the coach has lost fan opinion and in Toronto that's not gonna last long. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2015 : 09:37:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
There will always be unreasonable expectations on the Leaf players and management. That's I just the way it is. But as far as unfair pressure, I disagree. I think the rationale provided by Nonis is pretty clear in that the team was and has been very inconsistent. The team went through periods where they looked like a top 5 in the league squad to stretches of performing like a bottom 5 team. Carlyle had ample time to prove he could get this team off that roller coaster and he couldn't do it. Time for a new perspective behind the bench.
I think it could have and should have happened in the offseason when the assistants were all punted.
What's interesting is that Leaf fans are starting to talk about Kessel as a guy that needs to go. I don't necessarily agree as I think the issue isn't Kessel as much as what's still missing. Kessel is not a player that a team should be built around. He is a great #2 or #3 piece but he is not the guy. Not only do I think he doesn't want to be the guy by I think he isn't good enough to be the guy. If they were to move him for someone that can be the cornerstone of their franchise then I would agree to move him. But if they move him for someone similar they are not really moving their franchise ahead.
Those points you brought up are all good and fine, if we weren't working under a cap system. But we are. So, having an $8 million plus player on your roster means he necessarily has to be "the guy".
Those teams who have elite contracts need to be getting elite performance...otherwise they are doomed to failure. And as much as Kessel puts up elite NUMBERS, I think it's time to admit finally that his 'leadership' quotient isn't just negligible...it's detrimental to the team. That, coupled with terrible defense, a blatant disregard for systems, and his utter fear (no other way to describe it) of physical contact, makes him - in this Leaf fan's humble opinion - exactly what his +/- always hovers at: an ordinary player.
Which is why he is EXACTLY the problem. Leadership - work ethic, dedication, good habits, accountability - flows top-down.
Bring almost any other $8 mil + player here to replace Kessel, and ask yourself how much better the players around him would be?
Ironically, one of the very few who wouldn't improve the team significantly perhaps is Seguin, the other superstar Boston booted out of town. Not a coincidence.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2015 : 15:11:45
|
Come on, Slozo. You cant blame a guy for not giving it all hes got when you have halfass efforts going throughout the lineup. Why should he be the best all around player on the team when he is giving 100% to what makes him the best player in Toronto, offense. To many players have tried to be the whole damn show and end up on highlight reels making piss poor efforts at being 2way players. Last year Spezza made a big commitment to be a 2way player and had one of the worst seasons of his career. Lots of mixed feeling about his only season of captaincy, but in his career in Ottawa he was the playmaker, not the 2way playing shutdown guy. Too many players loose there edge trying to be something they are not.
The hate on Seguin is not fair either. This guy is lighting up the league right now and has a 2way game. Boston moved away from this guy because he doesn't fit the gritty mold they wanted of him and he had a party lifestyle which the team didn't like. I bet if you asked them to undo that trade now, Boston would. Just like if you asked a Toronto fan if they would undo the Kessel trade knowing Seguin was the guy they would end up with, most would. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2015 : 22:21:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Come on, Slozo. You cant blame a guy for not giving it all hes got when you have halfass efforts going throughout the lineup. Why should he be the best all around player on the team when he is giving 100% to what makes him the best player in Toronto, offense. To many players have tried to be the whole damn show and end up on highlight reels making piss poor efforts at being 2way players. Last year Spezza made a big commitment to be a 2way player and had one of the worst seasons of his career. Lots of mixed feeling about his only season of captaincy, but in his career in Ottawa he was the playmaker, not the 2way playing shutdown guy. Too many players loose there edge trying to be something they are not.
The hate on Seguin is not fair either. This guy is lighting up the league right now and has a 2way game. Boston moved away from this guy because he doesn't fit the gritty mold they wanted of him and he had a party lifestyle which the team didn't like. I bet if you asked them to undo that trade now, Boston would. Just like if you asked a Toronto fan if they would undo the Kessel trade knowing Seguin was the guy they would end up with, most would.
I can indeed, especially when I know that the entire team effort would be a night and day difference if Kessel had anything close to the work ethic and accountabiity of a Toews. Those other players necessarily WOULDN'T be giving in those half-assed efforts.
Leadership runs top - down. Kessel, by the very fact that he is the best, most skilled player, is one of the de facto leaders of this team, even if only on the ice. And he sets a horrible example, gets special treatment (dosumented by coaches and players), and in general allows a laissez-faire attitude to creep in.
If it were any of our past best players - Sundin, Gilmour - they'd never let complacency creep in, they were real pros and always gave their 100%, Gilmour especially so.
Eve if we acquired a bigger star than Kessel to have on our team, I'd still want him gone.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2015 : 11:08:19
|
To be honest, Kessel if moved to my team the Sen's, would be the stats leader by a stretch. Not that it would be possible, but just comparing stats to stats. It would totally change the dynamic of my teams offense. Don't know what my team would have to give up to get him, but he would be a huge step up on offense. My team is just getting by with career 2nd and 3rd liners and has nobody at or near his offensive level, including Ryan and Karlsson.
My point is you just don't throw away an offensive talent like Kessel, just because he isn't skilled at both ends of the ice. Bure, Kovalchuk, Hall, etc are not 2way players either yet some are viewed as some of the best offensive players to play the game recently. You can ask them to improve there game, but don't expect a Datsuk or a Toews. Its just not in the skill set of this type of player. |
|
|
|
The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 01/15/2015 : 05:26:20
|
Joshua, there is no doubt about Kessel's offensive talents. the trouble is keeping him consistent game in game out. if he were to apply to same effort level in every game he could be a 50 goal scorer & 100 pt player every year. he already gets 80 pts by sleeping walking through a fair portion of the season.
so as Slozo is saying, I think, is with the good comes the bad. and where this Leaf team currently sits, the bad part of his game is out weighing the good. which is why trading him now may be the best option. we are certainly not going to win with him (at least not with the current group we have), and we don't have the means to acquire the assets it would take to make this team a winner before Kessel's prime years are done.
he needs to be with a team like Chicago, LA, Anaheim, Pittsburgh, etc. that has top end talent to complement him and make up for his inconsistent play and defensive lapses. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2015 : 05:50:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
To be honest, Kessel if moved to my team the Sen's, would be the stats leader by a stretch. Not that it would be possible, but just comparing stats to stats. It would totally change the dynamic of my teams offense. Don't know what my team would have to give up to get him, but he would be a huge step up on offense. My team is just getting by with career 2nd and 3rd liners and has nobody at or near his offensive level, including Ryan and Karlsson.
My point is you just don't throw away an offensive talent like Kessel, just because he isn't skilled at both ends of the ice. Bure, Kovalchuk, Hall, etc are not 2way players either yet some are viewed as some of the best offensive players to play the game recently. You can ask them to improve there game, but don't expect a Datsuk or a Toews. Its just not in the skill set of this type of player.
Bure was a huge plus player 5 on 5.
Kovalchuk was looked at much more positively than Kessel - big guy who was occasionally physical, and who wasn't afraid of the boards.
Hall is WAY more physical than Kessel - to his detriment probably, since I consider him a bit reckless.
Kessel has a terrible work ethic (even worse than Kovie's was) and that's miles away from Hall, and a world away from HOFer Bure. Honestly you have the gall to compare a Hall of Fame player like Bure to Kessel, a guy who always gets 30 goals, but is consistently looked at as a guy with way more talent than that?!?
You are totally deluded dude.
And who's saying you have to throw him away? I want at least a very good first round pick, plus a player or two...but the huge thing is, guaranteed to have to take some salary back.
Kessel is essentially an 8 million dollar a year power play specialist who is a minus player 5 on 5. A player who relies on natural speed and skill to fly down the wing, but who has 'boardophobia' and is deathly afraid of physical contact.
And I'll make a prediction - just like what happened to Heatley, when Kessel's speed and skills begin to diminish with age, his stats will nosedive. Except that unlike Heater, Kessel has never gotten close to 50.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2015 : 15:34:49
|
I don't like Carlyle , glad his gone. Fresh face would be good for the team.
Nonis should be fired in my opinion , he is the one who overpaid all these so called stars , this is why the leafs are under achieving ... Their star players are killing them , not the 3rd and 4th line sluggers.
Why is it that the leafs payroll is the same as the leagues best ( chi- Pitt- LA-st Louis etc...) but their team sucks ??....it's the star players ...they're all overpaid and Nonis is the payout master... He gave them big bucks and they can't live up to it because they just aren't worth it ... Nonis fked up on luongo. And didn't pursue miller. Big mistake |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2015 : 17:59:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper
he needs to be with a team like Chicago, LA, Anaheim, Pittsburgh, etc. that has top end talent to complement him and make up for his inconsistent play and defensive lapses.
Kessel is the highest paid player on the team - he IS the top end talent for TOR. Which is really the crux of the problem with TOR paying 8M per year to a one-dimensional player. Which I think many people (myself included) pointed out when he signed that contract... |
|
|
|
nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2015 : 18:03:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I don't like Carlyle , glad his gone. Fresh face would be good for the team.
Nonis should be fired in my opinion , he is the one who overpaid all these so called stars , this is why the leafs are under achieving ... Their star players are killing them , not the 3rd and 4th line sluggers.
Why is it that the leafs payroll is the same as the leagues best ( chi- Pitt- LA-st Louis etc...) but their team sucks ??....it's the star players ...they're all overpaid and Nonis is the payout master... He gave them big bucks and they can't live up to it because they just aren't worth it ... Nonis fked up on luongo. And didn't pursue miller. Big mistake
1. Nonis didn't screw up Luongo - Luongo would not waive his NMC to go to TOR at the time the deal was offered. Hard to blame Nonis for that.
2. Pursuing Miller would have been pointless for TOR last season. They already have a great goalie in Bernier, why piss him off by going for a veteran starter that is not going to be your backup? |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2015 : 13:16:36
|
Hey Slozo, I wasn't comparing Kessel to Bure, Kovalchuk and Hall, because he isn't the better goalscoring player of the group. I was comparing him to them because they all had the knock on there resume for being a 1 dimensional player, slanted to offense first.
Don't try and tell me Bure was well rounded. The guy sat just outside of his teams defensive zone for most of his career, taking stretch passes in for 1 on 1 with the goalie, just like Kariya. I am not hacking on Bure, just pointing out his short comings as not a defensive player.
Kovalchuk did much the same, with floating at the top of the defensive zone waiting for those breakout passes. You told me about his willingness to dish out a check or go to the boards, but these were in the offensive zone, not the defensive zone.
Hall is trying to round his game, but he just doesn't have the all around skills and I personally think his stats are lacking from the effort to become more 2way. He needs better linemates with those 2way skills so he can release his true skills in the offensive zone. Actually I think if Edmonton found those linemates for Hall there 5/5 numbers would go up along with there winning percentage. I am judging this on the pre-Nelson era, because something good is happening in Edmonton at the moment and I hope it lasts. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/19/2015 13:17:17 |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2015 : 07:22:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Hey Slozo, I wasn't comparing Kessel to Bure, Kovalchuk and Hall, because he isn't the better goalscoring player of the group. I was comparing him to them because they all had the knock on there resume for being a 1 dimensional player, slanted to offense first.
Don't try and tell me Bure was well rounded. The guy sat just outside of his teams defensive zone for most of his career, taking stretch passes in for 1 on 1 with the goalie, just like Kariya. I am not hacking on Bure, just pointing out his short comings as not a defensive player.
Kovalchuk did much the same, with floating at the top of the defensive zone waiting for those breakout passes. You told me about his willingness to dish out a check or go to the boards, but these were in the offensive zone, not the defensive zone.
Hall is trying to round his game, but he just doesn't have the all around skills and I personally think his stats are lacking from the effort to become more 2way. He needs better linemates with those 2way skills so he can release his true skills in the offensive zone. Actually I think if Edmonton found those linemates for Hall there 5/5 numbers would go up along with there winning percentage. I am judging this on the pre-Nelson era, because something good is happening in Edmonton at the moment and I hope it lasts.
I lived and died hockey in the era these players played, so I remember VERY well.
But you may not believe me, so I lifted this from the Wikipedia entry on Bure - and you can further check up on the quotes provided:
Early in Bure's career, he was noted for playing a strong two-way game. Having joined head coach Pat Quinn's defensive-minded Vancouver Canucks in 1991, his transition to the NHL was cited as being much easier than that of his countryman, Igor Larionov, due to his quick adjustment to the team's defensive demands.[149] Regarding Bure's first NHL game against the Winnipeg Jets, reporter Mike Beamish explained that "hockey fans marvelled at his offensive thrusts, but hockey people were taken by a singular display of jet-powered defensive diligence. On one play, after the Canucks were caught deep in the Winnipeg zone, the Russian winger raced back and almost singlehandedly foiled a two-on-one Jets' rush, making up a half-rink disadvantage."[150] Bure was used on the team's penalty kill for his entire tenure with the Canucks, and was proficient at generating shorthanded chances, pressuring the opposition with his quickness and positioning in the defensive zone.[151][152] During the 1992 Stanley Cup playoffs, commentator and ex-NHL coach Harry Neale commented, "I like the effort he gives it when he doesn't have the puck. We all know what he can do when he thinks he can score, but he's killing penalties, he's checking, doing a lot of things."[153] Bure tied for second-place on Bob McKenzie's 1993 coaches poll for the NHL's best penalty killer.[147] He was also voted the league's second-best stickhandler that season and garnered recognition as one of the smartest players in the NHL.[147]
DO NOT slander one of the greatest talents of all-time, Pavel Bure. He was an absolute marvel, the greatest skater of all-time perhaps in the HHOF, and among the top 3 all time best goal-scorers. He was actually a beast defensively too . . . something that another speedy winger should be taking note of and emulating (looking at you, Kessel!!!).
Anyways, I could go through all your other points, but . . . we should really cut this off, as we've gotten off topic.
This thread should really be about Carlyle folks, and whether it was the right move to fire him.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2015 : 08:36:40
|
Off topic reply - Slozo is 100% correct, Bure was in fact a good 2 way player. The problem is, his offense was so exciting and off the charts that it tended to overshadow his defensive game!
On topic reply - The Leafs ought to clean house and rebuild. Keep a couple of the young pieces, esp if the returns aren't there for them and start over. In fairness to Carlyle, I'm not sure Scotty Bowman could have had this team in the playoffs. He was not necessarily the problem, however, it's one of those cases where a new face may help. We will see who that is?
|
Edited by - Alex116 on 01/20/2015 08:42:29 |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2015 : 11:51:18
|
| Back to the topic then, if you look at the results I cant see how the Carlyle firing was a good thing at the time. Love it or hate it Toronto now has a worse record and is now out of playoff contention by a larger margin. There doesn't seem to be a fix to the problem with the current roster and they now seem leaderless. Right now there seem to be only 2 teams in a free fall to match Toronto's and that's Buffalo and LA. I am starting to think with the roster Toronto has now Carlyle was milking it for all it was worth. |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2015 : 12:02:18
|
I know its off topic but I only have a fuzzy memory or Bure in Vancouver and of the highlights I can remember were all highlight reel offense. I do however remember clearly his Florida time and when the speed diminished he was not a 2way player or at least from my memory an effective one.
If you look back I am a huge Bure fan and have often referred to him as one of the best talents to play the game, but like I said his time in Vancouver is a fuzzy memory. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2015 : 20:39:52
|
| Pavel Bure was one of the best hockey players I've ever seen play the game. Unbelievable talented player. He made watching an hockey game a pleasure has a fan |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Carlyle Fired 
