| Author |
 Topic  |
|
HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
 Posted - 04/05/2010 : 08:27:29
|
I tend to agree with Slozo saying that assists don't hold as much weight as goals, which might very well put the Hart out of reach for Sedin.
Another thing that I feel is going to hurt him is the way he's perceived outside of Vancouver. I'll try to explain:
A lot of people I talk to around edmonton don't talk about Henrik, they talk about the Sedins. I find, and I could be very wrong in this, that the Sedins are talked about like they're a single entity. When people talk about the best players this season I hear this alot:
Ovie
Crosby
Miller
The Sedins
Stamkos
I wouldn't be surprised if the twin-syndrome hurts Henrik's chances as well.
I'm not sure if I said what I meant to say there, so if it doesn't make sense let me know.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
 |
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 08:41:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I see by the pile-up of comments on this sports writer that most of you here think that assists are just as important as goals?
Count me out of that one too - I definitely think goals are more important than assists.
I know many of you will point out the assist during a deflection goal as being more important, and the pretty assist resulting in a tap-in as more important - and you'd probably be right a lot of the time. But the majority of goals IMHO are more important, and require more skill, in my opinion, than an assist, and frankly - the goal is what changes the score, not the assist. So yes, I definitely do place a greater value on the goal scorer as opposed to the pure assist guy.
That's not to say a pure assist guy can't be the MVP - I was totally on board when Forsberg won. Foppa was a dominating player who created the chances to score by holding on to the puck for an unimaginable amount of time while being forechecked by two or three players at a time before dishing off a pass to one of his open teammates . . . he was a great example of an assist guy that really did create something out of nothing a lot of the time.
But I don't see Henrik Sedin as that kind of player, and that's fine - he is a great finesse player with awesome skills, I will give him that. And, I certainly think he deserves to be nominated . . . whether it is alongside any two of Crosby, Ovechkin, Miller, or Bryzgalov. But I don't think he's the mvp this year, myself . . . I see Crosby, Miller, Bryzgalov as more valuable to their team. And knowing that it's not me voting and picking, you'd have to think that Ovechkin will also stand a good chance of getting nominated as well, considering his star power and numbers.
But to say that assists overall are as important as goals . . . this is not something I can agree with.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Tough to argue with that logic Slozo, but i will . Well, sorta.....An assist isn't an assist if someone doesn't put it in the net, so really, you are correct. But, many times a goal wouldn't be there without an assist! Obviously they're both extremely valuable and to be honest, i don't know if the Hart will really come down to either on anyway. I don't think Henrik's got a real good chance to win it, but i'd be surprised if he's not nominated. However, it's kinda funny how no forward is having a stand out year (compared to other years) yet i still don't see Miller or Bryzgalov winning it either. Kind of a strange year. Those, mostly Canucks fans of course, who think he deserves it, point to Henrik's breakout year, the fact Daniel was hurt for almost 1/4 of the year and the fact that Luongo's had a less than spectacular year as being the proof that he's carried this team. Throw in the fact that Burrows is having a career year and anyone else who plays on that line seems to score (see Samuelsson) and i can't see how anyone would complain if he did steal this award somehow, unless of course, they simply can't stand anything Vancouver!
Sorry to bring this up again, but the thing that's really holding him back from a serious shot at it in my mind is still the eastern bias. I know you don't agree with this, and perhaps it's the wrong word? Bias tends to make it sound intentional, as though the voters have something against the west? A better word might be ignorance, and i don't mean that in an insulting way. Ignorance is usually a very negative word but what i mean is that due to the lack of exposure most stars in the west get back east due mostly to the time difference, the voters don't get much of a chance to appreciate them like they would if they were more local! Many voters who don't get to see Henrik play have already one thing in their minds when it comes to the Canucks. That is that it is Luongo's team and they'll go as far as Luongo will take them. That's something that people all over say about the Canucks, however, unless you've seen this team play this year, and i don't mean once or twice, you might not realize just how important Henrik has been to them and just how much Luongo's struggled. I'd be willing to bet that there are voters out there who don't even realize just how much Luongo's struggled!
Regardless, Miller or Bryzgalov are the one's who, by the wording of the award, should be battling for this award, but in the end will prob be lucky to be even nominated. I've always thought that since there's the Vezina and the Norris, there really should be an award for the best forward. That way, maybe the Hart would be awarded to the real MVP? Just seems that it takes an incredible year by a dman or a goalie, combined with a year where no forward really goes above the rest, to win the Hart. I don't see that being this year, but then again, i don't have a vote either.  |
|
|
|
Guest8605
( )
|
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 09:35:04
|
| Slozo.........Are you Ken Campbell? |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 10:30:40
|
For Alex 116:
A lot of the times a goal wouldn't be a goal without the assist, no . . . but conversely, a lot of the time, there wouldn't be two guys getting an assist without some great shot or snipe!
Hold up - let's track back . . . TWO guys?
That's right - most goals have two assists. So if about 2/3 of the time (I am sure it is more, but I am talking off the top of my head - so I am putting it low for argument's sake) there are two assists to one goal, doesn't that lower the value of the assist right there? See Alex, it's the second assist that is very often the "garbage" assist, the one players get by just being on the ice with the guy who deserves all the credit for the goal . . . whether it be the primary assist guy some of the time, or the goal scorer most of the time.
And no, I am not Ken Campbell, and I didn't even take the time to read his article, lol.
In terms of an ignorance bias . . . I can easily concede such a possibility. But I think the real thing against Henrik is the point about assists not being as valuable as goals, and that he would have to be a bit more dominant to win MVP. And, your point about "the twins" might be right as well, I often hear them as a pair, and it's only this year that I have been hearing them seperated.
But look at it this way . . . twins or not, whenever there is a "dynamic duo" that racks up the points, there is always something taken away from the top guy. Look at Hull and Oates back when they were playing together . . . was Hull given his due as a goal scorer? Not his fair share I'd reckon as he was getting all these great assists . . . and was Oates given his due? Not really, because he had an elite sniper. It is a bit of a no win situation at times, but depends on the style of player (Ovechkin doesn't get this with Backstrom, for instance).
I think Henrik is breaking away from the "he needs Daniel" stigma, but it takes time away from Daniel to truly prove that, and the sampling is still pretty small.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 17:06:25
|
Good points Slozo and we could debate this forever really but we're talking about little things now. Garbage goals vs rebound goals vs flukey goals (off a players skate or body for example) vs, etc, etc. I cannot say that an assist is more important, and in turn, you have a more valid point about a goal being more important. I'll admit, i've seen guys score some unreal unassisted goals where they've done ALL the work themselves. I've yet to see an "ungoaled" assist. Those are just simply referred to as unbelievable plays, with no finish! That's not really my argument anyway. All along, all i was trying to say was that IF Henrik somehow came out on top, there's an argument to be made. Assist guys have won before, Forsberg in 03 for example. Ironically, it was a Canuck who he beat (Naslund), one with 48 goals on the year. Forsberg has just 29, ironically, same as Henrik as of today. Hey, didn't Thornton have 29 in his Hart season as well? Maybe Hank shouldn't try to get his 30th?
Like i said, i don't see Henrik walking away with the Hart, but i don't think it'd be a travesty or a diservice to anyone else if he did. There are 4 or 5 legitimate candidates this season, and imo, he's one of them. I still say, i'll be quite surprised if he's not at least nominated!
I completely agree with you that for him to have a better shot, he'd have to be far and away (more dominant) the points leader. I do think it's mostly to be noticed more though, not just to make up for the assist to goal ratio. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 22:41:38
|
@ Slozo:
My big thing with Ken Campbell is not solely regarding his most recent crap about weighting goals and assists differently.
It's that he is always being inconsistent and writes garbage more often than not, while being a professional sports writer. Not writing on forums, but actually making a living talking the things he does.
He is often full of bias, inconsistency and self contradiction.
This week, he talks about assists not being as important as goals, yet next week he'll have an article about Joe Thornton being an amazing playmaker, who does not get enough credit because he doesn't up 40+ goals to go with it.
Which, drives me.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 05:19:40
|
Fair enough, Irvine . . . but you still mention that it's "crap" that someone weights goals and assists differently.
I actually don't know of many serious sports people who wouldn't weight them differently.
As I went through before, there are probably about 5 assists for every 3 goals, so that right away MUST weight them differently. And as much as one can tout all the times an assist is the thing that made the goal, more often than not a goal is scored by a skillful shot or deflection . . . and that doesn't count even the second assist, which is a gift stat in my mind.
Of course writers are inconsistent for the most part . . . they want to sound smart and savvy and generally they repeat what someone or everyone else is saying to do so. They'll brag on and on when they were right about (often reading into a vague statement as if it was a specific prediction alongside other contradicting statements) and never admit to being wrong. And I'll tell you why they do all this . . . they want to keep their jobs! Happens in every other workplace as well.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 09:26:06
|
It's hard to switch a measure after it has been used for so long, but I personally like the basketball method of assists. The assist only counts if the pass leads directly to a basket. So if I pass the Ball to Willus and he drops in a 3 pointer, assists for me. Or if I throw a lob pass to Alex116 for a rim rattling 2 hand jam, assist for me. But if I pass the ball to Slozo, he dribbles in with a couple of dazzling moves for a 360-Windmill Dunk, no assists for me. (Geez Slozo, don't you know I get bonus for assists!! Start shooting jump shots ya ball hog!! )
I don't think is would be right to simply weigh one higher than the other. For every garbage 2nd assist, there is a gabage tap in goal. In some cases, the breakout pass by the defensemen to start the 2-1 the other way is just as significant to the play as the text book pass to the goal scorer when the defender committs and the tap in goal by the goal scorer. The cross seam pass on the PP is as important or more important than the shot saved by the goalie to fall in front the the crease and jammed in by the forward.
I think assists should be more specific as to the impact of the play rather than who the last 2 players to touch the puck were.
|
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/06/2010 12:31:10 |
|
|
|
Guest2218
( )
|
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 10:14:42
|
| I think it should be Bryzgalov as well. There's so team that's so dependent on one singular player as Phoenix. The Coyotes have no business being in the playoffs, much less contending for the conference title, without him. |
|
|
|
irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 15:55:24
|
@ Slozo:
The reason I find weighting goals and assists differently is because in the game of hockey (nevermind basketball, different sport.) they are weighted the same!
Regardless of often more than not, a second assist is not very pretty of a pass, it is still an assist in the game of hockey. Thus, I weight them as they are. Simple as that for me.
If I take a guy like Joe Thornton, who often has a ton of assists, it's safe to say it's not luck or another player that is responsible for him getting so many points.... so why should I weight a guy like Ovechkin (who scores so many goals) higher than Joe Thornton, even if Thornton were to finish with more points. Something tells me, Joe did something rite to get that many assists.
It has been the same since I can remember... 1 Goal = 1 Point, 1 Assist = 1 Point. To me, they are equal.
To you, they are not. Which is fine, just differing opinions.
Irvine/prez. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Henrik Sedin and the Hart 
