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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 05/11/2010 : 21:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
NEWSFLASH BEANS:
Phoenix is still a failing franchise. Please show us how much money they made this year if you attempt to disprove this!
Filling the seats for 4 playoff games didn't save them.
Is the NHL so ready to go to bat for a team that went to the playoffs and lost to Detroit? Oh wait, that EXACT same thing happened to Winnipeg in 1995/96 . . . and that was for a team that had made the playoffs 11 out of the last 15 years, making the second round twice during the Oilers dynasty.
And the NHL rolls out totally garbage rationalisation about drastic moves, stability, etc?!? Where the heck is the logic?
Answer: there is no logic when dealing with the NHL.
Goodluck to you Winnipeggers . . . Winnipegans?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Hey Captain Obvious, thanks for the Tip!!
I never said that the Frachise was safe and secure. What I did say is that the City fronted $180 million for a franchise and the teams has sucked for the better part of a decade. Now they have a decent product on the ice, maybe a little momentum, and a potential ownership group committed to making a go of a team in Phoenix. One could argue that Phoenix has never had this opportunity in their time in Arizona. All I said is it would be short sighted and ignorant saying a team would not have a shot.
Edmonton, which is a crazy hockey city, went well over a decade without turning a profit until an ownership group committed to producing a quality product got involved.
And let's not misquote why the Jets left in the first place. They had ZERO support from their City and no owner will willing to stay there and front the cash for a new arena when that franchise(regardless of their success) was not a money maker either. |
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impropriety
Top Prospect
Canada
78 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:44:15
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Interesting the way you worded that, Beans. Zero support from the city of Winnipeg? Do you mean financially, or fan support?
Iirc, 35,000 people showed up at the 'Save the Jets' rally. I watched the CoG council meeting last night. There are 285 seats in their viewing gallery, and it was not full. I counted 12 people in the seats wearing Coyotes merch (which, admittedly, was a large portion of their fanbase). The chair of a Coyotes fanclub got up to speak when they opened the floor to questions, and she said they have 385 members after 3 years. This, Beans, is -after- their miraculous year and increased fan support, and -after- their 4 consecutive playoff sell-outs.
Liebermann, the council member who vowed to oppose the movement at all costs, tore apart the people proposing the movement with questions about the legality and practicality of the CFD (a district of businesses around the arena that would see a portion of their profits funnelled into the $25MM that would end up in the NHL's pockets). He then promptly changed his tune after a ~7 year old boy in a Coyotes jersey asked him to keep them in Glendale. He supported the movement from that point onward. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 16:47:15
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I am talking about the City of Winnipeg back in 96 when they left.
Where was the City with a new arena and a local ownership group a la the Edmonton group or Calgary group to save the Jets??
They were not there.
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 07:32:21
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Back in 96, where was Bettman taking over the Winnipeg franchise until they could find a suitable owner? Where was Bettman, trying to keep the stability of the league and trying to appease the huge swell of fan support at the time?
He was not there . . . or rather, he WAS there - stabbing them in the back, and quickly setting things up to move them to an american city in the desert with not even a remote connection or fanbase for hockey.
I think Liebermann has a side deal with Bettman, or has been paid off. I have no proof of this, but situationally, that's what it looks like.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 07:56:43
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Hey Slozo, you should be asking the correct questions.
Where was the Board of Governor's directing Bettman to get involved in Winnipeg's issues??
It very easy to forget that Bettman is not the Boss, just an employee of the NHL. He doesn't get to make that call. |
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impropriety
Top Prospect
Canada
78 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 10:08:41
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http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Dont-give-up-NHL-tells-city--93667974.html
Summary of comments made by NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly regarding Winnipeg's desire (and ability) to host an NHL team in the near future. There's also a few comments from the mayor of Winnipeg, Sam Katz, about his optimism regarding a franchise relocating to Winnipeg in the near future.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Load-of-landmines-on-road-to-keeping-Coyotes-in-desert--93668139.html
Quotes from the Goldwater Institute's attorney regarding potential lawsuits against the City of Glendale for contravention of the state's laws that prohibit public grants going to private business. Main issue the Goldwater Institute is facing is that the lawsuit cannot actually be filed until the money is given to the NHL (which would not happen unless a purchaser could be found by the June 30 deadline). Looks like they're going to try the angle that the city is in the wrong to even authorize the city manager to try and secure the funds for this purpose.
I don't know if I would go so far as to say that Liebermann has been paid off, but he definitely says one thing while doing another. He vocally opposed both Memorandums of Understanding that have been proposed, and voted for them despite what he said. I didn't get the feeling (while I was watching the live video coverage of the Glendale meeting) that he'd been paid off, but I did get the distinct feeling that the whole thing with Logan, the young kid in the Coyotes jersey, was staged. It was a little too 'feel good' to happen spontaneously.
A quick word about Bettman 'not being the boss'. While it's true in theory, you could say the same about any elected official. The Prime Minister answers to the voters, so you could argue that certain decisions are not his to make if they are not in the best interests of the public, but he can still make them. It's within his authority (see Klein, Ralph).
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Edited by - impropriety on 05/13/2010 10:16:44 |
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Gusteroni
Rookie
Canada
225 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 11:28:58
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I sure hope the people of Winnipeg don't get their hopes up too high as there could be a huge disappointment when the Coyotes don't return to the Peg next season. I can see how their hopes can be high as the NHL made an alternate schedule including Winnipeg in place of Phoenix. If Winnipeg did get the Coyotes would they play in the Northwest division and the Canucks would move to the Pacific division?
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there too. |
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impropriety
Top Prospect
Canada
78 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 11:55:44
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@ Gusteroni:
I don't think "when the Coyotes don't return this year" is quite accurate. It's still a big 'if'.
The NHL can't take another year of losses in Glendale. Bettman, as Beans has pointed out, is accountable to the Board of Governors, and they won't buy into it. Until Glendale comes up with the cash, the BoG is on the hook for the losses because the team is operating on their dollar. If there are any delays in the city providing the guarantee (ie problems securing financing or Goldwater's lawsuit over the legality of covering the losses at all), the team is gone.
The NHL needs to know soon because of things like the draft (coming up in a little over a month) and the scheduling issues, as well as the July 1 free agency deadline. True North's offer to purchase also comes with a deadline because they need to know whether they have to plan the upcoming year with the Moose (recruitment, etc).
As far as I know, the idea of an 'alternate schedule' involving the new Jets has been exaggerated. The NHL has suggested that what they had was a 'matrix' that determines who would play whom, but doesn't go so far as to name dates and whatnot. It's essentially a preliminary schedule, as a contingency. It's also been postulated that the Jets would join the Northwest division, with Colorado joining the Pacific. |
Edited by - impropriety on 05/13/2010 11:57:50 |
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Gusteroni
Rookie
Canada
225 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 12:40:59
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Impropriety:
I was just expressing my concern for the people on Winnipeg if this does not come to fruition as many will feel like they were just kicked in the Sami Salo's. I have a feeling if it does not happen for them this year they will have a team there within a few years.
There is no doubt that the NHL cannot lose anymore money to the failing Coyotes and the teams paying for them to survive aren't going to have this continue on. As long as Jerry Reinsdorf is in the mix the Coyotes could be staying put but there are conflicting stories about his involvment. The only thing at the moment that might point to the Coyotes staying is that the City of Glendale is putting up the 25 Million to keep the team playing at Jobing.com arena for the 10 - 11 season and in truth I did not expect them to go ahead with it. They need an owner by June 30th though and until that happens I believe this is still up in the air.
When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there too. |
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Radoria
Top Prospect
Canada
17 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 18:15:31
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Here is an interesting article as to why the Jets left which kind of sums it up:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/glendale-repeats-our-long-ago-mistakes-93661829.html
It lends some creedence to what Beans has been saying regarding lack of support from the city (not the fans). What it doesn't expand upon is that the frontrunner of potential ownership groups (Manitoba Entertainment Complex, or MEC) was able to secure the funds to build a new arena but not enough to purchase the team. |
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impropriety
Top Prospect
Canada
78 Posts |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2010 : 19:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by impropriety
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Bettman---more-patience-95131794.html
Summary:
Bettman says the MTS Centre is an NHL-calibre facility. This is in spite of the fact that it seats approximately 15,000 people.
Bettman acknowledges by name the offer made by True North as a bona fide offer.
Does this settle some of the points we've been discussing in this thread?
No. Not at all. The question never was how valid the offer from True North is. The question is 'how likely is the puck dropping at the MTS Centre in 2010 season?"
The answer to that is now absolutely zero. Especially as the NHL has made the deal with Glendale for the City to cover the loses. Part of that agreement was that the EARLIEST date the NHL could seek relocation is December which means that the EARLIEST the team would actually relocate is for the start of the 2011 season.
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Guest4666
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Posted - 05/28/2010 : 19:51:58
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| Weren't you suggesting that the biggest factor working against Winnipeg was the size of the arena? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2010 : 06:17:47
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I don't recall saying the arena was an issue. I recall saying that expanding a small arena by 3000 seats is a mistake and they will have to build new sooner than later. This is based on my experience in Edmonton and my dislike for Rexall Place.
My argument has always been that Winnipeg is still on the outside looking in and it's a pipe dream to think this Phoenix franchise is moving to Winnipeg this year. It's simply not happening with the City of Glendale, Ice Edge, and the NHL as road blocks. |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2010 : 06:36:24
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If Reinsdorf becomes the majority owner...within a couple years, he'll look to move the team to Chicago and create a North Siders vs. South Siders battle similar to the Cubs vs. White Sox...
Bettman would ok it as long as it was another American team :D |
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Guest9169
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Posted - 05/31/2010 : 07:20:26
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| Gary Bettman is an idiot. I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth and never will. |
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Guest6189
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Posted - 05/31/2010 : 07:49:03
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Winnipeg would have the smallest NHL arena, for sure. But I don't think that means anything. Altlanta, Nashville, Dallas, the Floridas, all have bigger arenas, but how many tickets do they give away? Or for at least very cheap? I heard Phoenix had specials where you get a free ticket with a bottle of booze. In Florida you can get parking, food voucher, and a ticket for something like $20.
I don't see this type of marketing happening in Winnipeg. It may have the smallest arena, but when you add up the ticket sales, it should by far surpass the larger arenas in the southern States.
I'd be way more concerned about corporate support in Winnipeg than the arena size and fan support. But the fact that Thompson is involved is encouraging.
Go Jets Go in 2011!! |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2010 : 10:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6189
Winnipeg would have the smallest NHL arena, for sure. But I don't think that means anything. Altlanta, Nashville, Dallas, the Floridas, all have bigger arenas, but how many tickets do they give away? Or for at least very cheap? I heard Phoenix had specials where you get a free ticket with a bottle of booze. In Florida you can get parking, food voucher, and a ticket for something like $20.
I don't see this type of marketing happening in Winnipeg. It may have the smallest arena, but when you add up the ticket sales, it should by far surpass the larger arenas in the southern States.
I'd be way more concerned about corporate support in Winnipeg than the arena size and fan support. But the fact that Thompson is involved is encouraging.
Go Jets Go in 2011!!
Agree...$14 gets you 10 rows up in Tampa...same seats at the Air Canada Centre are $250...if you get them from a friend lol otherwise...season tickets only |
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Guest7113
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n/a
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 05:18:37
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Thanks for that update guest.
Is everybody done defending the greatest LIAR the world has ever known, Gary Bettman, The Count? Ice Edge and Reisendorf were bull sh-- the whole time, just fronts to keep out Balsillie at the time and later stave off a sale.
But reality has caught up to the commissioner's ploy, and eventually, this team HAS to move out of the desert.
Go Winnipeg! Go Quebec City! Go southern Ontario!
Go away, Bettman.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 10:05:33
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Again, as always, people point the blame in the wrong direction.
30 other fingers need to be points. Gary Bettman has bosses that direct him what to do.
And one who so quickly throws out the Liar label and yet talks solidly about Balsillie??
That's a joke right??? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 10:30:33
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See, the argument you make - that 30 bosses can somehow constantly arrive at a consensus and direct Bettman on what to do and how to do it - this is just not possible. Nor is it logical or realistic to assume that all ideas and proposals for initiatives, strategies with how to deal with matters, etc are directed by a huge and very fragmented group (Board of Governors).
In this business environment, my guess is that Bettman proposes major initiatives to the BoG and gets them approved, and that minor matters are entirely directed by himself. And, being the lying, slimy lawyer, most of the time he is able to spin and misdirect any blame for any of his initiatives away from himself and onto others, and he is able to aptly sell his ideas to the BoG by mentioning that every one of them will make money or be to their benefit.
The key to a position like Bettman's isn't that you are so successful at what you do; it's successfully selling/representing yourself to the BoG that you are successful at what you do.
So yes, I do put a large part of the culpability on Bettman. Because the problem actually IS that there are 30 bosses, and not just one or two.
And I never talked about how honest Balsillie is . . . and am confused as to how that has anything to do with Bettman's handling of his job and his performance. The two things are entirely seperate issues. From what I saw of Balsillie, he was pretty straightforward, but I don't know him personally. From what I have seen, Balsillie's bid should have clearly gotten a few teams by now, but they were all semi-illegally thwarted by Bettman and his cronies.
At any rate, Balsillie is beside the point - Bettman is the slimy liar who let Canadian teams leave and doesn't want any other teams to get back to Canada, and anything he is saying now about Winnipeg is probably pure hogwash as he prepares a place in Kansas City or elsewhere.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2010 : 14:40:17
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To an old point, who is more guilty:
The person suggesting the action
or
The people who approve the action.
And it does not require a 30 person consensus, it required the majoirty of the Board agreeing to something, to which, I will add again, Bettman has zero vote on.
If the Board, being all these horrible, horrible businessmen, wanted actions anything other than those Bettman is involved in, he would be fired.
You can blame Bettman all you want, but all it really does it lend to an opinion that you are ill-informed. He is the puppet. The Puppetmaster is the Board.
Put the blame in the correct place.
Finally, my comment
"And one who so quickly throws out the Liar label and yet talks solidly about Balsillie??"
The intention behind that was that in EVERY involvement Balsillie was has with the NHL he has been deceitful and underhanded.
Every-single-one. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 00:37:41
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Let's rephrase you question:
Who is more guilty?
The person who suggests the action, sells it under false pretences, gets it approved, then blames everyone else but himself when it blows up - and convinces his bosses fairly well of this?
Or, the people who were sold the lie, approved the action, and then bought the reasons for the failure as well
Do I think any of the BoG were smart to try hockey in the desert? No, it was a greedy move filled with lies about tv deals, expansion and more US dollars. But when you have snake-oil salesman Bettman selling it to deluded owners, and you only need a majority, well, the intelligence of a group we all know is usually the lowest common denominator, especially when you have powerful corrupt members leading the group (see: Toronto).
I won't respond to your ridiculous comment about Balsillie and further sidetrack this discussion . . . it is both wildly incorrect and totally beside the point.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 11:43:05
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This is a completely sensationalized, media drivin, Hollywood opinion of how the real world works. It can not be proven which opinion is more accurate as neither you nor I are anywhere near the BoG, Bettman, or anything within the framework of the NHL. However, one of the opinions is based on some kind of logic and reason. The other is based on wild accusations and media propaganda.
I just can't seem to understand how multimillionaires and billionaires who own hockey teams and run the BoG are all complete morons who can't see that Bettman is a complete tool yet millions upon millions of Canadian Hockey Fans can???
Seriously, is that the argument???
And I only brought up Balsillie because you did. If you wish, I can prove 6 ways to Sunday that Balsillie's attempts at purchasing the Penguins and the Predators was under false pretenses to keep the teams in their respective cities when it has been proven with various legal documents that he intended to move both to Hamilton once he owned them through loop holes in the NHL Constitution.
Beside the point?? Yes. Wildly incorrect?? Not at all.
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Winnipeg Jets v2.0 
