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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2010 : 02:41:10
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First off, I didn't just come out of the woodwork. Second, ya, you're damn right the fans have a right to complain. What the hell was that? I'm not a fan by any stretch of the imagination, and only due to no other games teleivised, watched that train wreck. When the Leafs are charging regular prices for a pre season game, they really need to turn out an effort...... Average price: 250 per, average play? Not even close.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2010 : 05:30:04
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Toxxik1:
You are brand new here, and most welcome to post your opinions and comments . . . but when a new poster with the Bruins logo attacks a team for a 5-0 loss in the VERY FIRST PRE-SEASON GAME, it comes off as . . . presumtuous. Hateful. Ridiculous.
And try to get your facts straight, please.
Yes, the Leafs overcharge . . . it is supply and demand. But that first pre-season game? It was a freebie, sponsored by Coke Zero, ironically. All fans got in free.
Also, the Leafs are playing the most preseason games of anyone - 9 - and that means the opening day talent will be spread out even more, and we know it's fairly thin, so you have to take all the results with a grain of salt.
Everyone jumped on Phaneuf and Kaberle for a poor first game showing . . . but no one mentioned the goalie that let in three very soft goals that our starters would have stopped easily (Gustavsson was out at that point).
And finally, no one will give credit with a pre-season win (like last night), because they will cite the non-NHL goalie for the opposition, or the lack of starters, etc, and say the games mean nothing. But if the Leafs lose, and a couple of starters have a so-so to bad game? The Leafs are terrible, and it's a strong indication of the season to come.
So tell me this: what does pre-season mean to you? Then, stick with it, and be prepared to get called out on it.
From your comments of earlier, I expect a huge applause for the Leafs this morning after a fantastic game . . . and I am still waiting! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2010 : 07:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Yes, the Leafs overcharge . . . it is supply and demand. But that first pre-season game? It was a freebie, sponsored by Coke Zero, ironically. All fans got in free.
Slozo, thanks for filling us in on that and providing me with a morning laugh. That really is kinda funny all things considered!
How ANYONE can worry about a game like this is beyond me. There's so many different things going on it ridiculous to take anything, other than maybe an individual's performance, too seriously. Funny thing is, most "non Leaf fans" prob didn't see any of it including highlights, prob didn't look at a box score, don't know the line up (may have been all prospects), etc. yet will still reckon the Leafs are terribly brutal again just from the 5-0 score!
Well Slozo, at least no one was saying that your teams is brutal after they lost inter squad games to each other during split squad training camp games? |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2010 : 13:50:43
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Didn't see it, but, i assume there were many different players on both sides? And. since when is telling the truth "turned in a stinker" attacking another team when they did turn in stinker? Hateful? Really?
As for pre season, I could care less, but, all I heard last season after the leafs went 6 for 9 I believe was how great this team was going to be. We know how that turned out. So, in short, last year pre season meant a lot and now on a loss, who cares? I'm confused. I'm not saying any of you did this, but the media did.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 09/23/2010 13:56:25 |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2010 : 16:10:42
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ToXX relax its only pre-season, Leafs were fine Wed. night. I feel good about last nights team with a few insertions from Tue`s nights team at a later date. You should worry more about M.Savard as a Bruin`s fan, they ain`t gonna face C.Price every night.
Damn did Kessel look quick last night, think he is in for a big season. T.Seguin has BIG shoes to fill, people still talk about this trade, Toronto may still come out big with this trade, who knows.
Truth is the Rask for Raycroft trade disturbes me a whole lot more than Kessel ( a high proven first round pick )....... for a high first rounder and hopefully a not so good first rounder. The day J.Ferg. made this trade i nearly threw up.
T.Seguin is a very young guy, who`s to say he is going to out do kessel ? only time will tell. All i can say is that TO got a damn good proven player in kessel, Boston is yet to find out what they received. Could be a Stamkos...could be a A.Daigle. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2010 : 18:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
ToXX relax its only pre-season, Leafs were fine Wed. night. I feel good about last nights team with a few insertions from Tue`s nights team at a later date. You should worry more about M.Savard as a Bruin`s fan, they ain`t gonna face C.Price every night.
Damn did Kessel look quick last night, think he is in for a big season. T.Seguin has BIG shoes to fill, people still talk about this trade, Toronto may still come out big with this trade, who knows.
Truth is the Rask for Raycroft trade disturbes me a whole lot more than Kessel ( a high proven first round pick )....... for a high first rounder and hopefully a not so good first rounder. The day J.Ferg. made this trade i nearly threw up.
T.Seguin is a very young guy, who`s to say he is going to out do kessel ? only time will tell. All i can say is that TO got a damn good proven player in kessel, Boston is yet to find out what they received. Could be a Stamkos...could be a A.Daigle.
Couple of things. Firstly, Kessel for what has turned to be Seguin, another 1st round pick AND a 2nd round pick is a lot. Kessel needs to be a 35+ goal player at the least for the deal to be even. Furthermore, if Seguin comes anywhere close to his potential (which play say is a Jonathan Toews type) it will be hard to say the Leafs win the trade at all.
And you are right. Rask for Raycroft is a very hard pill to swallow.
Finally, to Tox: Pre season means the same this season as it did last season, which is absolutely nothing. Rarely if ever does the full opening day line up play together in the pre-season and there is zero corrolation between a pre-season record and the regular season. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2010 : 21:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Damn did Kessel look quick last night, think he is in for a big season. T.Seguin has BIG shoes to fill, people still talk about this trade, Toronto may still come out big with this trade, who knows.
T.Seguin is a very young guy, who`s to say he is going to out do kessel ? only time will tell. All i can say is that TO got a damn good proven player in kessel, Boston is yet to find out what they received. Could be a Stamkos...could be a A.Daigle.
While this is def true as anything is possible, lemme ask you this.......If you were gm of the Leafs and could have "do over" on the Kessel trade, would you?
I thought so...... |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2010 : 00:50:07
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For Savvy, it's not surprising after watching him in the playoffs last year. He was out of step, not sharp, on another planet. He shouldn't have played. It took Bergeron over season to shake the cobwebs from his conc, and I don't expect any less for Savvy. He'll be off for quite a while I suspect and it now gives room to Seguin to play in the line up providing he makes the team. Rest up and get well Savvy !!
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 09/24/2010 02:19:01 |
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Guest9023
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Posted - 09/24/2010 : 02:17:59
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I do think Kessel is a great player but....
I think Seguin will be awesome... We will soon know, right?
Boston's first round draft pick next year might make me even more nauseous, considering the caliber of talent that has been coming into the league over the past few years.
Sigh;
At least the Leafs are crazy deep in D men which may land us a good trade or two, and that makes me happy (as i'm holding my knees having a hot shower screaming "Why me, Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy")
I'll just dream about 1967 and how I wasn't alive then.... |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2010 : 05:06:32
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As a pick-up hockey amateur analyst, and as a human being, I should be allowed to change my mind, no?
So here it is: Kadri may not play a full season for the Leafs. He may not even play half the season.
He has bulked up like management said they wanted him to, but it looks like it was too much, too fast, and he has lost his dangle. I'm not saying it couldn't also be a result of the pressure of people now EXPECTING him to make it, rather than last year no one expecting it . . .
Doesn't look good right now for Kadri to make opening line-up. Which may be a good thing, but tempers my enthusiasm for the kid.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2010 : 23:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
As a pick-up hockey amateur analyst, and as a human being, I should be allowed to change my mind, no?
So here it is: Kadri may not play a full season for the Leafs. He may not even play half the season.
He has bulked up like management said they wanted him to, but it looks like it was too much, too fast, and he has lost his dangle. I'm not saying it couldn't also be a result of the pressure of people now EXPECTING him to make it, rather than last year no one expecting it . . .
Doesn't look good right now for Kadri to make opening line-up. Which may be a good thing, but tempers my enthusiasm for the kid.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Before we see any " I told you so" comments or people start coming out of the woodwork Bashing Kadri and leafs i would like to say first, Kudos Slozo for the objective point of view, and Kadri was what a 7th overall?? i think if memory serves right?? It is 100% normal if he doesn't make the big club next year. Take St Louis for example how they handled Eller (a 12th overall pick) he played in the swedish elite league the year after his draft and then a full season in the AHL. Now this year he should be stepping into the NHL at 22 years old with 2 seasons of pro hockey under his belt. He has had time to grow into his size and wasn't feeling pressure to put on 20 lbs over the course of a summer. Now look at how NHL ready he looked, i know it is just 1 pre season game but he looked like one of the better players on the ice and controlled the puck quite often creating chances, why he was given time to develop. Kadri personnaly i think will be a much better offensive player than Eller but he will benifit greatly from a seaon with the Marlies, Not every top 20 draft pick should be playing in the NHL by 19 thats just expecting to much. Not to mention this way his entry level contract lasts longer!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 09:18:16
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Alex i honestly don`t know what to say about a do-over on the Kessel trade. Who can say wether Boston received the better player here ?...i guess only time will tell. Who`s to say kessel has reached his full potential ?...he may hit 50 one day, isn`t he still only 22 years old ?...just a young kid himself.
Looking at Burkes point of view, i`m sure he didn`t expect TO to finish 29 overall. IF he knew this, he may not have made the trade, but Kessel is a great player and i`m glad TO has him.
I guess we will all know who won this trade in 5 years time, for now we can just give opinions on it, and thats it. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 09:33:54
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Beans you say Seguin is suppose to be a J.Teows type player...can you see J.Teows ( at junior level of course ) not making Canada`s national Junior team ?....remember T.Seguin DID NOT make the team, i don`t know why but he did get cut if you remember.
Did T.Seguin only have 1 point in his last round of OHL playoff play last season ?...maybe this is incorrect as i haven`t checked any stats, just heard this somewhere.
Maybe Seguin will never be Kessel material, who knows ?
As an example, Kadri loaded up on OHL playoff points last season. As a leafs fan he hasn`t impressed me very much so far in pre-season play. So-So but certainly no greatness. Any-one who sez Seguin will be just as good or better than kessel is just making a comment based on nothing, only time will tell. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 10:36:26
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| I think the point everyone is missing is it doesn't matter what 2-3 years down the road brings Boston from the draft picks. Kessel was without a doubt Toronto's best offensive threat last year and should fill the shoe which Burke wants him to fill. Sequin may not see action regularly this year in Boston. One day Sequin could become an impact player like Kessel, but Toronto IMO wins cause they got the player they needed now and have the luxury of knowing they dont have to develop a player to appraise if he's a stud or a dud, in the NHL. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 13:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans you say Seguin is suppose to be a J.Teows type player...can you see J.Teows ( at junior level of course ) not making Canada`s national Junior team ?....remember T.Seguin DID NOT make the team, i don`t know why but he did get cut if you remember.
Did T.Seguin only have 1 point in his last round of OHL playoff play last season ?...maybe this is incorrect as i haven`t checked any stats, just heard this somewhere.
Maybe Seguin will never be Kessel material, who knows ?
As an example, Kadri loaded up on OHL playoff points last season. As a leafs fan he hasn`t impressed me very much so far in pre-season play. So-So but certainly no greatness. Any-one who sez Seguin will be just as good or better than kessel is just making a comment based on nothing, only time will tell.
There have been various players who were not part of their countries Junior Program as soon as they were eligible. Like Seguin, Taylor Hall was cut off his first chance as well. It means nothing.
Same as how many points Seguin has on possibly the worst team to make the OHL playoffs last season. What about the league leading points he produced through the regular season??? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 16:07:04
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I agree Seguin was not rated so high by central scouting for nothing. He will probally be an impact player some day. I still can`t see how people say the leafs lost big-time with this trade, Phil kessel is an awesome player, a win for both sides here i think.
I know Boston had some key injuries last year but boy did their offense disappear when kessel left. kessel`s speed and quick release of the puck is unbelieveable and as i said before, he is still just a youngster, hockey wise. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 16:54:45
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P.S...was going to mention that Matthew Barnaby had 5 more regular season points in junior ( 1992-1993 ) than Seguin had last year. Barnabys 111 compared to Seguins 106, theres no guarentees in a prospect. kessel is already NHL proven, Seguin is not, big difference
Anyway, getting sick of kessel vs Seguin ( plus picks ) debate, hope they all have good NHL careers. Remember Boston gave up a lot to get those picks ))). |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2010 : 17:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
P.S...was going to mention that Matthew Barnaby had 5 more regular season points in junior ( 1992-1993 ) than Seguin had last year. Barnabys 111 compared to Seguins 106, theres no guarentees in a prospect. kessel is already NHL proven, Seguin is not, big difference
Anyway, getting sick of kessel vs Seguin ( plus picks ) debate, hope they all have good NHL careers. Remember Boston gave up a lot to get those picks ))).
you keep forgetting this trade wasn't Kessel for Seguin it was Kessel for Seguin and next years 1rst rounder and wasn't there a second rounder in there too? in 2 years we will be able to decide weather the Buds win or lose in this trade, and don't forget Kessel is a 5.5 million $ cap hit for the next 3 years Seguin is a 800 thousand $ cap hit
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 03:11:28
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Pasty.....save it dude! A battle with an unarmed opponent is futile. 
C'mon Duke, just answer the question......If you could have a "do over" on the Kessel trade, would you???
Really, it's not that difficult? And, don't gimme the Barnaby comparisons, unless you wanna make yourself look foolish?
Don't get me wrong, Kessel's a stud, no doubt. Just simply not worth what they gave up to get him. Here's the funny thing, Seguin and the other picks they gave up could be s***e in the end, and you'll claim the Leafs won. You'll still be wrong, cuz if that's the case, Boston simply drafted wrong.
Bottom line, horrible trade Burke......... |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 05:58:36
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Alex, if in your opinion i`m wrong and no matter what i`m gonna be wrong, why should i give you an answer ??
Remember opinions are like a$$-holes, every1s got one. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 06:25:50
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p.s.....a battle with an unarmed opponent is futile.....
that is so funny, - where did you find that one ?? Barns & Noble ?
Sounds like something our idiotic town mayor would say. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 11:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Alex, if in your opinion i`m wrong and no matter what i`m gonna be wrong, why should i give you an answer ??
Remember opinions are like a$$-holes, every1s got one.
FYI, it's your opinion, it can't be wrong. It can be silly, stupid, ridiculous, etc, but not really wrong. Well, then again, maybe it can be?
Apologies if i offended you, i tend to get bitter when someone argues something that i feel is ridiculous. Some posters, like Beans, are much better than i at expressing their feelings towards what they / i feel are ridiculous posts/opinions.....my bad |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 14:53:24
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Hey Alex, enough said by both of us. Guess we all can`t agree on everything, be a pretty boring world if we all did.
Truce ? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 14:53:31
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Guys, keep the personal comments out of it. They have no place in the argument.
That being said, I would be shocked to see too many Leafs fans after this coming season who would say the Kessel deal is a win. Specifically, when I am correct about the Leafs being a Lottery pick team again!
Seriously, it's simple math. I looked at the 10 draft seasons between 1998 and 2007. I didn't go in the 08-10 seasons as it is common for a player to take 2-3 players to make it to the big league.
Of the 50 players drafted through those seasons in the 1-5 positions, all but a handfull of players are everyday NHL players. I count 8 players from that list that turn out to be a complete bust(the list is below if you would like to see including draft year). That means there is an 80% chance that a Lotto pick will be a regular NHL player. Furthermore, I would say that at least 1/2 of these players are the stars in the NHL today.
Specifically about Seguin, of the 20 players drafted 1st or 2nd overall, only Patrik Stefan in the past 10 years would be considered a flop. There is a far higher change that Seguin will be a stud rather than a dud.
Finally, IF (and I am saying if respectfully) the Leafs do finish in a lottery pick position next season, there is not a chance this deal would be a considered even. Not even close. There is not a GM in the league that would give up 2-top 5 picks for just about anything. There are only 2-3 players in the game today that would command that kind of deal and Kessel is not one of them.
Furthermore, what exactly are the Leafs building on for the future?? Oh, right. Nazem Kadri.
Bottom line, the Wizard of Oz made a risky deal. Hidesight is always 20/20 and if the Leafs were as good as Burke figured they were the deal would be ok. If it was Kessel for 2 middle to late 1st round picks that's a far more fair deal. However, Burke made the mistake of misjudging his team not making a poor trade. However, it will be very difficult for anyone to be able to justify this trade in about 10 months.
Overall Pick Player Draft Year
1 Vincent Lecavalier 1998
1 Patrik Stefan 1999
1 Rick DiPietro 2000
1 Ilya Kovalchuk 2001
1 Rick Nash 2002
1 Marc-Andre Fleury 2003
1 Alexander Ovechkin 2004
1 Sidney Crosby 2005
1 Erik Johnson 2006
1 Patrick Kane 2007
2 David Legwand 1998
2 Daniel Sedin 1999
2 Dany Heatley 2000
2 Jason Spezza 2001
2 Kari Lehtonen 2002
2 Eric Staal 2003
2 Evgeni Malkin 2004
2 Bobby Ryan 2005
2 Jordan Staal 2006
2 James Van Riemsdyk 2007
3 Brad Stuart 1998
3 Henrik Sedin 1999
3 Marian Gaborik 2000
3 Alexandr Svitov 2001
3 Jay Bouwmeester 2002
3 Nathan Horton 2003
3 Cam Barker 2004
3 Jack Johnson 2005
3 Jonathan Toews 2006
3 Kyle Turris 2007
4 Bryan Allen 1998
4 Pavel Brendl 1999
4 Rostislav Klesla 2000
4 Stephen Weiss 2001
4 Joni Pitkanen 2002
4 Nikolai Zherdev 2003
4 Andrew Ladd 2004
4 Benoit Pouliot 2005
4 Nicklas Backstrom 2006
4 Thomas Hickey 2007
5 Vitaly Vishnevsky 1998
5 Tim Connolly 1999
5 Raffi Torres 2000
5 Stanislav Chistov 2001
5 Ryan Whitney 2002
5 Thomas Vanek 2003
5 Blake Wheeler 2004
5 Carey Price 2005
5 Phil Kessel 2006
5 Karl Alzner 2007
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 15:20:00
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Well Beans, after a horrible season where everything went wrong, I am not unhappy about Seguin being part of the Kessel deal . . . not at all. The other part is to come, but so far, I stick with the deal.
Players of Kessel's value don't come cheap, and Burke had to pay full value unfortunately. If the Leafs had finished even one or two spots better, and contend for the playoffs and just miss out this year, everyone calls it a solid win right away for the Leafs. The way it went down, I think the it will turn out pretty even if this year's pick becomes a full time NHLer of third line quality, and Seguin turns out to what I think he will - a solid second line player, like a Stajan.
So yes, I'm sticking with the deal as a win still for the Leafs. Like I have said a hundred times since that fateful trade though, we'll see.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2010 : 16:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Well Beans, after a horrible season where everything went wrong, I am not unhappy about Seguin being part of the Kessel deal . . . not at all. The other part is to come, but so far, I stick with the deal.
Players of Kessel's value don't come cheap, and Burke had to pay full value unfortunately. If the Leafs had finished even one or two spots better, and contend for the playoffs and just miss out this year, everyone calls it a solid win right away for the Leafs. The way it went down, I think the it will turn out pretty even if this year's pick becomes a full time NHLer of third line quality, and Seguin turns out to what I think he will - a solid second line player, like a Stajan.
So yes, I'm sticking with the deal as a win still for the Leafs. Like I have said a hundred times since that fateful trade though, we'll see.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Did you say Stajan compared to Seguin??? Wow, are you ever unvaluing the kid when most people who comment on him see him with significantly more than that!! Wow. Really, I kind of think you are telling yourself that Seguin will be a bust to make the Kessel deal better that what it is. If Seguin turns out to be a Stajan, it will be a complete bust.
Paid full value?? What??? Look that that list of players!! You might want to try paid "over value." Kessel is a fine player, but let's put this into perspective. He has not produced more than 60 points in a season, has not played a healthy season(saying nothing about his cancer battles in the negative at all, I am refering to other injuries) and he really hasn't shown the ability to make players around him better.
I know he is still young but c'mon. Kessel is a not worth 2-Top 5 picks. Period. Unless the players name is Sidney or Alexaner, no current NHLer is worth 2-Top 5 draft picks. This deal is in Boston's favor unless the Leafs make the playoffs this season and the other 1st round pick becomes a mid to late rounder.
Even at that point, it's arguable if the deal is even. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 04:25:31
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But Beans, I have to project Seguin's real worth, just like we all do, when evaluating this trade. And that is where I predict Seguin - ok, we disagree. I don't look at other players who were picked 2nd overall to judge Seguin, I judge Seguin on his own. Your list gives us an impression of a trend, but each year you have to look at it differently.
And you rage about my projection of Seguin as a severe undervalue, but continue to throw out that the Leafs will finish about the same as last year, the very bottom of the heap. It is quite unlikely to happen, and even the lowest prognosticators in all the poolie mags I collect have the Leafs 7th or 8th worst overall and 3rd worst in the conference (McKeen's Hockey Pool Yearbook).
That will almost certainly not get a player of assured NHL quality, but again, we'd have to wait and see - every year is different, and it relies on how good/lucky the Boston scouting staff is that year.
But your reaction suggests I must be way off, and I just don't see my prediction as so divergent from expert opinions.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2772
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Posted - 09/27/2010 : 05:15:20
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Wow, I agree with Beans on this one. Do you really believe that Seguin's worth will amount to no more than a Stajan Caliber player, or do you mean its possible that all he will be is a Stajan type player? Take a look at some of those players on Beans list that were picked second overall.
Also as the deal stands right now it Tyler Seguin and Jared Knight GP63 G36 A21 PTS57 for Kessel. I would argue Knight has as good a future as Kadri(GP56 G 35 A 58 PTS 93) Based on their OHL careers. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 06:12:41
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i think what none of you get when you say the LEafs won in this deal is this is a salary cap world we live in!you simply have to have players on entry level deals producing like stars the, the leafs are at the cap next year, what are they going to do,, they only have Kabby and Giguere`s contract coming off the books,, they will need to replace Giguere.How are they going to compete for more than one year? Even if they do well this year how are they going to improve? they have third liners making second line money and with the exception of Kadri and Gunnerson liturally no blue chip prospects and no high draft picks untill the 2012 2013 season,,, even if they draft as high as 10th or so in 2012 2013 that player is 2 years from being anything in the NHL. The fact is the leafs should have rebuild, have an impact player like Seguin play in the minors this year finish in the lottery next year than for the 2011 2012 season bring up Kadri Seguin and X loterry player at entry level deals and then start buying a supporting cast! Even if the leafs have success this year it will not last their prospects are simply nowhere near deep enough.
All in all my question for leaf fans who think the Kessel deal was a good one is:
How are you going to improve your team for next year? you have not enough cap room for a top six player, and only Kadri up and coming..... what can you do?
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Guest7924
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Posted - 09/27/2010 : 08:44:07
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The Leafs are pretty shallow when It comes to depth in prospects. The Versteeg trade didn't help either. So for Kessel and Versteeg the Leafs have drained their pool for the next couple years. The one thing I do give Burke credit for is the fact that he's very active in signing young free agents. Bozak, Hanson, Scrivens, Gustavsson, Mueller, Rynnas and Irwin to name a few. Although personally I agree that the draft and entry level contracts is the best formula for succes I think Burke is doing all he can to try and balance that out. Not every free agent signing will be a success but every once in awhile you'll strike gold a.k.a Bozak.
The Kessel trade demands that the Leafs become as good as possible as quick as possible. Kessel is a stud. I love watching this guy play. If the leafs can finish in the 8 spot say 15/16 overall that will mean the Leafs traded Seguin, Knight, and 2011 15/16th overall pick. From what I hear 2011 isn't supposed to be a very deep draft.
I think alot of people forget that Kessel at one time was rank to go 1st overall and alot of people were very suprised to see him drop to 5th overall. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 10:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
But Beans, I have to project Seguin's real worth, just like we all do, when evaluating this trade. And that is where I predict Seguin - ok, we disagree. I don't look at other players who were picked 2nd overall to judge Seguin, I judge Seguin on his own. Your list gives us an impression of a trend, but each year you have to look at it differently.
And you rage about my projection of Seguin as a severe undervalue, but continue to throw out that the Leafs will finish about the same as last year, the very bottom of the heap. It is quite unlikely to happen, and even the lowest prognosticators in all the poolie mags I collect have the Leafs 7th or 8th worst overall and 3rd worst in the conference (McKeen's Hockey Pool Yearbook).
That will almost certainly not get a player of assured NHL quality, but again, we'd have to wait and see - every year is different, and it relies on how good/lucky the Boston scouting staff is that year.
But your reaction suggests I must be way off, and I just don't see my prediction as so divergent from expert opinions.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
The thing that got me the most was the Seguin comparison to Stajan. I mean, it's not even fair to say that. Seguin, by at least 1/2 of the draft experts, was the best player and had the highest potential of any player in this draft. He produced as many points as Hall playing on a far inferior team and most everyone comments on how much more of a complete game than Hall.
Matt Stajan was a 2nd round pick who was an above average junior player when he played, not one of the top 1-4 junior players in the league. They are virtually the same size today with Seguin having potential to be bigger. Most are using comparisons of Toews and Yzerman when speaking of Seguin's potential, not Stajan. Even if the Toews and Yzerman comparisons are a stretch and premature, one could more easily look at Seguin as a Brad Richard's type of player. PPG potential 2 way player.
That is far more reasonable than Matt Stajan!!
Finally, the biggest difference between our arguments can not be solved for about 10 months. I think even your die-hard dedication to all things Blue and Leafy could not find an sound argument to say the trade is even IF the Leafs are a lottery pick team. As I stated above, a mid-1st round pick, 2nd round pick, and Seguin would still be difficult to argue as favorable to the Leafs but it far more realistic.
But yes, my reaction is that your assessment of the Leafs is way off. They were a bad hockey team last season who did not do enough to get better. Hence, my reaction.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 12:20:42
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Here's the thing. I will give Burke this much....he, nor many of us, expected TO to be so terrible last year. Therefore, the trade at the time, while risky, prob seemed pretty fair considering Kessel's level of play at the time?
However, and this is a HUGE however, i just can't fathom how any fan, Leafs fan or other, could possibly think that this deal is still fair with the way it turned out. I'd venture to guess that there are a total of ZERO gms out there who'd trade Seguin today, for Kessel today. So, not even taking into consideration the draft pick to be determined from this year, it's advantage Boston!
Like i said, at the time of the trade, perhaps you could excuse Burke for the deal, but if he had Seguin's rights today, you can't for a second think he'd swap'em for Kessel? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 13:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
I'd venture to guess that there are a total of ZERO gms out there who'd trade Seguin today, for Kessel today. So, not even taking into consideration the draft pick to be determined from this year, it's advantage Boston!
I quote a very old proverb that states, "One in the hand is worth 2 in the bush."
I don't believe you would be accurate using the statement above. Although I believe that Seguin will prove to be a top notch NHL player, all-star for years, and really solidify Burke's reputation as the most successful hockey moron in history, it is just a belief. Seguin, with all his upside and potential, is not worth a proven 35+goal scorer who is in the very, very early stages of his career.
I would venture to say that ALL GM's would make a deal of 1st round draft pick for Kessel straight up. I would venture to say that MANY GM's would make a deal for a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for Kessel. I would venture to say that a very FEW GM's would trade 2-1sts and a 2nd for Kessel.
I would venture to say that no more than 1 current NHL GM would trade Kessel for Seguin, a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 14:08:09
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Switching gears for a second but staying with the Leafs. I have been doing a ton of smack talk about how bad this team is and I really haven't stayed close to what the starting line-up is looking to be for opening night.
Help me out here Leaf Fans. Who is looking to be the 13 forwards, 7 defensemen and 2 goalies. (Including pressbox players)??
How far off am I??
Forwards
Kessel
Versteeg
Armstrong
Bozak
Kulemin
Grabovski
Brown
Orr
Sjostrom
Kadri
Brent
Mitchell
MacArthur
Defense
Phaneuf
Kaberle
Beauchemin
Komisarek
Schenn
Gunnarsson
Lebda
Goalies
Giguere
Gustavsson
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 14:43:32
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All right, first of I will say what every non Leafs fan wants to hear. Yes due to today's circumstances I would do over the trade. I would go for Seguin, Jared Knight and next year first rounder over Kessel. And this is just because building on youth is the winning formula lately.
But last year when Burke did the trade, It was a proven young NHL star player for a few draft picks. Yes although really risky, the first rounders are never proven, especially if you believe your team can make it out of the bottom 10. Burke had good reasons to believe his team would be better then the year before with the additions of Kessel, Gustavsson, Beauchemin and Komisarek. Considering that the 2 years prior to last season they finished 7th worst.
It's really s***ty that the years they were supposed to finish in the bottom 5 they finished 7th worst. And the year they were supposed to fight for a playoff spot they finished in the lottery draft. Which when you're their it's still not a given that you will have the 1st or 2nd pick. This trade just went out perfect for the Bruins and the worst case scenario for the Leafs. So yes I would do over the trade, but at the time it wasn't a bad trade from Burke. Risky yes but not bad.
Also I'm really glad that we have Phil Kessel. Only 23 players last year scored 30 goals. Kessel did it missing the first part of the season coming off a shoulder surgery, And he did it with no supporting cast what so ever. He did it with the worst team in the NHL on the pp and the 25th team for goals for. He did all that at 22 years old. So his potential is big, and yes Seguin might be a big time player (B.Richards) type player but he could also be the next Patrick Stefan. You never know it's a risk. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 14:50:42
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You got it nailed down pretty good Beans. Here's what I believe will be the starting lineup.
Armstrong, Bozak, Kessel
Kulemin, Grabovski, Versteeg
MacArthur, J.Mitchell, Caputi
Sjostrom, Hanson, Orr
Brown
Phaneuf, Beauchemin
Kaberle, Komisarek
Schenn, Gunnarson
Lebda
Gigučre
Gustavsson |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 15:27:06
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Gentlemen, I am not sure John Mitchell makes the club. He is having a horrible camp.
Problem is, who do they if he doesn't pick it up? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 16:19:20
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Love these heated debates, Kessel vs Seguin. First off the Leafs got a proven NHL goal scorer. Boston has received a 2nd round pick in Seguin who should be a good player...but not proven.
When you draft a prospect, ( unless he is Crosby or Ovie ) who the hell knows how is going to turn out.
Luc Robitaille was the highest scoring left winger of all time, yet drafted in the 9th round, who seen this coming ?
Look at Datsyuk, went in the 6th round, David Legwand went 2nd overall that year, who knows how they are going to turn out ? not that legwand is not good...but no phil kessel
Don`t give this bull that all top ten picks will be good, nonsense. Look at the 1999 draft for instance. I will go so far as the top 15.
1st.. Patrick Stefan...then the 2 Sedins ( great picks by burke and staff by the way ), from 4th on...Pavel Brendl, Tim connolly ( good pick ), then Brian Finley, Kris Beech, Taylor Pyatt, Jamie Lundmark, Branislav Mezei, Oleg Saprykin, Denis Shuidki, Jani Rita, Jeff Jillson, Scott Kelman.
Who the hell are most of these guys ?? Only point i`m trying to make is unless you are a superstar youngster...NOTHING IS FOR SURE.....KESSEL IS.
anyway gotta go leafs are on...kessel just scored...oouuff..oouuff |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 16:36:37
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| and he scores again... |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 19:37:10
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Arguing about draft picks is a moot point, unless you use some actual statistical math, anyone one of us can keep citing examples of picks that panned or didn't pan out until the cows come home.
But you yourself have pointed out Duke, that top picks usually become good players.
Here's a list of Top 3 picks since 01:
2001: Kovalchuk, Spezza, Svitov
2002: Nash, Lehtonen, Bouwmeester
2003: MA Fleury, E. Staal, Horton
2004: Ovie, Malkin, Cam Barker
2005: Crosby, B. Ryan, Jack Johnson
2006: Erik Johnson, Jordan Staal, Toews
2007: Kane, van Riemsdyk, Kyle Turris
2008: Stamkos, Doughty, Z. Bogosian
2009: Tavares, Hedman, Duchene
Looking at the state of the Leafs, there is no way the trade for Kessel will ever be weighted in the Leaf's favour.
Burke was hoping TOR would do better, but he has a Harvard law degree, he should have at least had an escape clause based on team performance. (ie, leafs end in bottom 3, a first round pick turns into a 2nd & 3rd, or something...) |
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The 2010/11 Toronto Maple Leafs 
