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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2010 : 19:37:55
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Hey Duke, I could pick out a bunch of one off's who way over achieved and way under achieved too. Take a look at how many 7th round draft picks have any success in the NHL at all. We are talking about 300 players every 10 years. I bet fewer than 2% of those guys become NHL players at all.
However, looking back to my list above, you can not argue that it is far more likely to see a top 5 pick succeed than to bust. The higher the pick, the more likely to succeed. It is not a fluke that 19 of the top 20 picks in the past decade are studs.
If you can justify the trade to yourself to say that Seguin will tank great. However, I will gladly take the 95% chance of Seguin turn out to be a solid player, another 95% chance at another solid player, and about a 20% chance to get a player out of the 2nd round for Phil Kessel. I would suspect that most GM's would gladly take that. Specifically because when Kessel was traded, he was an RFA expecting a big raise that Boston was not going to give. So, ultimately, Boston got the trade for a player they were not keeping anyway. I am sure they wanted to keep him, but they simply couldn't.
Find me a GM in any sport in any league in the entire world that would not be elated to get 2-1st round and a 2nd round pick for a player they could not afford to sign.
What an absolute gift.
And he scores again??? In the preseason!! Geez, Nick Foligno has 4 goals, does that mean he should be good for about 75 goals in the regular season??? Maybe if he played for the Leafs, right??? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 22:00:14
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quote:
Burke was hoping TOR would do better, but he has a Harvard law degree, he should have at least had an escape clause based on team performance. (ie, leafs end in bottom 3, a first round pick turns into a 2nd & 3rd, or something...)
Interesting.....wonder if he could have done that? Guess it's no different than a "conditional draft pick" that we hear so much about?
Here's the thing, i think some of you are missing the point i'm making. I totally agree that at the time, the trade wasn't so bad. I clearly said, the way it turned out was bad for Burke as his team performed far worse than most thought it would.
Beans, your post with all the bold points is good. I'd agree with most of it. Maybe i'm a little off claiming that "NO" gm would make such and such a trade. However, for you to say "I would venture to say that ALL GM's would make a deal of 1st round draft pick for Kessel straight up." is not really fair in evalutating this trade. You're saying pretty much what i already said. If a gm figured their pick was no better than 5th, maybe even 3rd, they'd prob do it. I agree. BUT, with the hype around Hall and Seguin that built up for a couple of years, i still don't think there's a gm out there who'd trade a top two pick for Kessel. Same goes for your "1st and 2nd" pick. If you're in the middle of the pack, damn right i'd take Kessel for the two picks. What i'm arguing is there's still Leaf fans out there claiming that they would still do this trade knowing that Boston ended up with Seguin!!! I just don't see it....then again, i'm not an NHL gm....?  |
Edited by - Alex116 on 09/27/2010 22:04:15 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2010 : 22:17:00
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ok lets think for a second the leafs do not trade for Kessel,, but do everything else exactly the same,,,, this season they do not bring up Kadri or Seguin and finish lets say 14th in the conference draft lets say the 3rd overall pick then the following year bring up... Jarred knight Kadri and Seguin,, not to mention a 3rd overall pick.... match that with Vestreg Bozak and you have 4 potential top six players on entry level deals, and Vestreg on his first contract other than his entry level deal,,, this gives you plenty of money to go out and get a Kessel type player, wouldn't you prefere this route for your favorite team? having the chance to solidify prospects in order to maintain a dynasty like the Devils and the Red wings have done for the last decade?? I sure as hell would!
because the route the leafs are going in they at best are an 8th place team year in and year out and it will be another 40 some years before they win a cup!
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 09/27/2010 22:21:25 |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 09:18:05
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WOW, talk about beating a dead horse....
Burke screwed up trading all those picks for Kessel, but theres nothing he can do about that now. He has to work with what hes got.
Im a die hard leaf fan, and ive defended them to death in the past and will do so in the future but fellow leaf fans, dont twist yourself into a pretzel trying to defend the kessel trade or how the leafs are going to make the playoffs this year.
The damage done to this organization between 2003-2008 when JFJ was fired is going to take YEARS to undo. Think about it, there isnt 1 blue chip prospect in the system from JFJs tenure. 5 years on the job and left the team with nothing but overpaid veterans. Burke took over a team that was completley void of young talent aside from say Luke Schenn (Fletcher pick)
To think that Burke would have this team making the playoffs and competing for the Stanley Cup in 2 years is naive. Even if he said he was gonna do it, we all know that Burke says alot of things. I like him as a GM (kessel trade aside...) and hes done alot of good for this team in a short span already, but Its going to take at least another 2-3 years, in my opinion, of solid player development, solid cap management and smart UFA/RFA signings before this team can be considered a legit threat.
After this year, the Leafs will have their 1st round pick back and hopefully some of the kessel trade talk will be moved to the back burner.
So, I say, for your own sanity Leafs Nation, dont go getting your hopes up that this year is going to be vastly different than the least 2. Sure, we may see flashes of what may be on the horizon, I really like Kessel-Bozak-Versteeg-Kulemin up front, but the team still needs a legit #1 centre, a legit checking line centre and some semblance of in zone coverage.
Which brings me to my last point; Ron Wilson. His job is on the line this year imo, if the team continues to have the worst PK and PP in the league by say... new years, hes a goner. Theres no excuse to be so bad in your own zone with the personel they have on the back end.
Hey 7752, Gainey still sucks and Mats Sundin still kicks ass. ;)
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 09:21:48
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But Pasty, you are missing the point. They got Phil Kessel!
Kidding aside, Burke's move was risky and that we can all agree on. Most everyone have been saying the exact same thing for the past year. The deal is good if they are mid-late 1st round picks. If the deal was for lottery picks, it's simply bad. Slice and dice it anyway you look at it and it's still bad when you include lottery picks.
Your potential situation paints a very clear picture of what could have happened. However, if my Aunt was born with different plumbing she would be my Uncle. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time the deal was a risk but could turn out well for the Leafs. That didn't happen. For obvious reasons, Burke will never admit the trade didn't work. However, the entire hockey world can see through the act.
Two lottery picks for Kessel is too much. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 10:10:57
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I think the question is: If Burke knew it was Seguin, would he still have done it?
I say he still would have, just on the sense of urgency to win now, not develop later.
As for the coach: I think Wilson has to have a winning record in the first 20 games oe he's toast. There's no Olympics to save him this year or I think he would've been canned last season.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 10:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
I think the question is: If Burke knew it was Seguin, would he still have done it?
I say he still would have, just on the sense of urgency to win now, not develop later.
If in fact "he still would have" done the trade knowing it was Seguin, then he's arguably the dumbest GM since Mike Milbury! Or, he's been hired by someone to sabotage the Leafs!
As it's been pointed out before (scroll up), in this day and age, you need to have young talent on entry level contracts. There's simply no justification for signing one above avg guy and giving up your future. You're seeing the results, he's got very little to accompany Kessel and even less coming in the near future!
No way he'd have done this deal if he knew it would be a top two pick IMO. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 11:16:11
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See, I disagree with this 'if he knew it was Seguin," comment. As I said, one in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. Kessel was coming off a 30+ goal season in only his 2nd full NHL season and showed progress from 11, to 19, to 36. There is no doubt that Kessel is the real deal as far as a legitimate, top 20 in the NHL goal scorer and will be for the next 10ish years.
Seguin hasn't done anything yet.
Actual (Kessel) vs potential (Seguin) straight up, alway take actual.
However, when the potential is 3:1 on Actual, well that has been the argument for the past year. |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 11:24:36
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Which makes me question, Alex, why Burke didn't force a clause into the trade that change the picks based on team performance.
I know it is possible, because certain trades have done so, except basing it on player, not team, performance (they call the conditionals, don't they, so if a player reaches a certain plateau, ie 50goals, they give up the conditional pick) but usually those picks have not been very high.
For me, a GM has to strategize more than one possible way a team can go. There always has to be a Plan A and B. (If we win we..., if we lose we...)
So if you are making trades to win the Cup, they also have to be trades that will let you compete for the cup next year if you don't win. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 14:59:22
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Beans i didn`t say Seguin will tank, in fact i said he will probally ( not surely ) be a good player, as we leaf fans already have in kessel. We know what we`ve got...Boston doesn`t, they`re just hoping to bring back something of kessel`s value.
What do you mean when you say 2 lottery picks for kessel is too much ?? Wheres the 2nd lottery pick coming from ?
Anyway, leaf fans haven`t had much to cheer about over the last few seasons. Just let us cheer on a world class goal scorer for a change, something we haven`t had in a long,long time. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 15:10:21
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Toxx, what do you mean when you say Burke made this trade to win now and develop later ? ( i know what you mean but ) isn`t picking up a 20 - 21 year old like kessel developing later and winning now all in the one package ?
I would agree with your terminology if kessel was 30 + years old, but kessel isn`t that much older than Seguin, he is still a kid himself. Phil kessel went 5th overall, but could have easily been drafted in either T.Hall`s or T.Seguin`s draft spot.
Going into this season at the tender age of just 22, and accomplishing so much as a goal scorer already, Phil kessel`s potential is unlimited with his speed and skill. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 15:33:28
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Enough with the Kessel/Seguin, the debate will be not be solved until Seguin gets going in his career. I think Seguin will bring the same value to Boston as Kessel brings to the Leafs. Two young players that are talented with the puck. The trade breaker will be the next 1st rd pick that Boston also gets.
And there will always be people out there that just because it is the Leafs, they will never see a positive side of the deal for the Leafs. To some Seguin is the next frickin Gretzky just because the Leafs could have had him but didn't get him.
Anyways, both Kadri and Mitchell will be in the line up Wed against Ottawa, both vying for the 3rd line centre job, both having tanked miserably in camp. Who gets the job, or is it neither.?
I have a feeling Wilson is going to go with Kadri, but I don't think it is a wise move. Best move for Kadri is to go play some with the Marlies, take a year to develop more. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 15:42:17
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Welcome to the conversations Duke, nice of you to join us!! If you haven't figured out that I believe the Leafs will be one of the worst teams in the NHL this season, I don't know what else I can say for you to see that. I have said now 4 times in 3 days that IF the Leafs finish in the Lottery position, the trade is horrible and IF the Leafs finish in a mid-late 1st first round position the deal is still questionable.
Reposting over and over again that you think the deal is even is not proving anything. You might want to try a different angle.
What some Leaf Fans are missing in this trade is the comparison to a Lindros type deal. Although this deal is not nearly as significant, it is comparable in one team wanted to get their hands on a young player so deparately that they were willing to trade the potential of tomorrow for the potential of today.
We all know what Philly got out of that deal compared to Quebec City/Colorado. One had a core of one of the best teams in the NHL for a decade, the other had Lindros and had to work hard to get into a position to contend for a very short period of time.
TO is no different than Philly in this case. Kessel is a fine player and no one is arguing that. However, Kessel is only as good as he can be because the Leafs have no ability to build around him. Baring some magically trade that Burke makes to get his hands on a 1st round draft pick this coming year, the Leafs will have nothing but Nazem Kadri to build off of in a 3 drafts.
There is also the possibility that by the time the Leafs have a chance to put a few pieces around Kessel to grow and build a core, his contract will be up and he leaves. Losing doing gross things to players and makes them want to leave.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 21:20:32
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quote:
Which makes me question, Alex, why Burke didn't force a clause into the trade that change the picks based on team performance.
Polishexpress, you're making the assumption that Burke was able to force terms onto BOS in this trade. They were not.
Turn it around - why would BOS have accepted anything less than what Burke had to give up? |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 08:58:52
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What i meant by develop is, Kessel is already an established sniper vs waiting to see if Seguin is.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2010 : 07:58:26
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| Looks like kadri will be sent to the AHL., hoping he would play but maybe this is the best thing for his career right now. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2010 : 14:15:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Looks like kadri will be sent to the AHL., hoping he would play but maybe this is the best thing for his career right now.
Some Leafs fans won't agree but I agree with this move. Kadri has put on some size but he needs some time to develop pro level skills yet. Leaf management in the past would have tried to rush his development.
Some of the better teams always let players spend a year in the minors before bringing them up. The Redwings are well known for that. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2010 : 15:20:18
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I agree, and Seguin and also Hall. You guys may disagree, but, they all should go down and develop. Hall looks good, but.......... playing pre-season with rookies is a big diff in the majors.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2010 : 15:22:50
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To Alex:
You're dreaming. Toronto is and always has, and will always be a now situation. Never has T.O. waited on talent, never will either.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2010 : 22:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
To Alex:
You're dreaming. Toronto is and always has, and will always be a now situation. Never has T.O. waited on talent, never will either.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!"
Well, i guess i'm dreaming then? If they're really always a "NOW" situation, why have they struggled so badly lately? Better yet, why've they not won the cup in my lifetime? Someone obviously isn't doing their job unless a "now" team means not doing well "NOW"???
Don't wanna stir the pot here, but seriously, if they will "always be a now team", then they're not likely to compete anytime soon..... |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 05:41:22
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Bad management and bad decisions doesn't detract from what I said. The Leafs for as long as I can remember, have given away their draft picks and the future for a "now" team. Just because they haven't made it, doesn't mean they haven't tried.
You have to be delusional to think they're trying to win. The building is always full, tickets are always hard to find and they are always mediocre at best. Every year the future is traded for a half assed team on the ice. Line up, buy your tickets and book the golf course in March, the Leafs will meet you on the green.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 09:03:36
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Toxxik - what evidence leads you to believe the crap you are talking about?
1) The Leafs are one of the youngest teams in the league, probably only Edmonton will have a younger opening day line-up. We have Kaberle and Beauchemin and Giggy as our veterans, that's about it.
2) Yes, they traded away last year's draft pick and this year's for a player that can score now . . . but the point was to get a young, somewhat proven scorer in Kessel to begin the build-back. Those high draft picks, when Burke made the deal, weren't guaranteed to turn into a 35 goal scorer with even greater potential, and they STILL are not. If Seguin or this year's draft pick turn into a player of that calibre, then the deal still paid off - they just overpaid. If those draft picks turn into NHLers of less than first line quality, the Leafs win the trade hands down, IMHO. Bottom line, Kessel is YOUNG - key for a re-build.
3) Burke did not go out and try to sign Kovalchuk, a premier scoring machine who would have instantly given the Leafs front line credibility. Why? He wants the right players, and he wants them younger than 27, and he wants to build a team to be a great, competitive team, not just one to squeak into the playoffs when he's done. Yes, we have a chance to squeak into the playoffs this year, but we are probably a couple of years away from being a solid playoff contender.
4) Sending Kadri down isn't just a move to tell Kadri he neds to get better . . . all the players get the message: We won't rush things to try and win at all costs now - we want to build properly for the future.
5) Burke has a big ego, and he realises one great thing about Toronto: if he could ever build a championship team here and win the cup, his legacy would be carved in stone for all time. The opportunity is here for the greatest of glories, and he has his eye on the prize, make no mistake about it.
This is not the 70s and 80s . . . yes, the seats are always filled. But there is a legacy factor here, one that is up for grabs for anyone who can bring the cup here. And I think Burke is very hungry for it.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 16:22:58
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Toxx what you said is true pre - Burke. Hopefully those days are over. I`ve never seen a Toronto GM sign so many young players in my life time, so many good goal-tending prospects and also young college players. By doing this its a numbers game...you have to hit the jackpot with at least 1, maybe 3 of these signings one day.
Only future Burke gave away were those 2... 1st round picks and Kessel may very well out-weigh those yet, kessel is only 22 by the way, so the future was not sold...just swapped.
Leafs used to give away picks for 35 year olds...and older...i`d hardly put kessel in this category. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2010 : 17:29:16
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I think I get what Duke is getting at here.
To some the Leafs have already lost the Kessel deal because the could have Seguin (who may or may not be better then Kessel in the future), but the Duke has a point.
The Leafs have totally changed their hockey team and ultimately gave up very little for some decent prospects. At the same time they rid themselves of some overpriced talent like Blake (even non leaf fans have to marvel at that).
The Vertseeg deal is hands down a winner for the Leafs thanks to the Hawks cap problems.
The Phaneuf deal is still a winner for the Leafs when you look at what Stajan and company did with the Flames. (they could prove that wrong this year, maybe)
A few free agent, college player signings make up the rest.
So, I see Dukes point, for 23 new players in the Leafs organization they only gave up two first rounders and second rounder in draft picks. Management before that would have given away every last draft pick for someone like Owen Nolan. This way the only gave up three of the most important picks for 23 guys. If it could be looked at that way. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 08:14:54
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I see the point of the Leafs going young and in a different direction, but it still does not justify the early draft picks. That would be like saying the Blackhawks would have been wise to give up Kane and Keith for a Kessel type player. Or perhaps the Capitals would have been wise to give up Backstrom and Semin for a Kessel type player.
Granted, it is still on speculation that the Leafs will be giving up that early of a draft pick this year as well as last, however no one can argue that the teams that has successive years of early draft picks (LA, Wash, Chic, Pitt) are currently the best in the league and will be for a few more years to come.
People often miss the point that since the CBA changes, draft picks are significantly more impactful than in the past. Having a young, talented player for that entry level contract and then 1st RFA deal is worth HUGE. Furthermore, even a draft pick that did not pan out to their full potential can supply a less than top talent position for value. A la Gilbert Brule.
I absolutely agree that Burke has taken the Leafs in a direction then have not been in since before even Fletcher's time. However, they youth movement works when you have a few key points of skill on the squad. Kessel, Phaneuf, and Kadri have some huge weight on their shoulders as Burke has all but assured they are the only pieces being added to that puzzle for 2-3 seasons.
Time will tell. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 11:15:17
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Well, I am glad you SOME of the points we are making Beans . . . but it is disappointing that you keep framing the Kessel deal as "Kessel for the 2nd draft pick overall plus another 1st rounder" (I am paraphrasing).
We have to keep repeating ad nauseum, but when the deal was made, no one expected the Leafs to finish quite as badly as they did, and at that time, it's 2 first rounders (and a second, if I am not mistaken). Ok, so later we find out the Leafs have one of their worst seasons in quite some time, everything goes wrong, and it happens to be the second overall pick. Well, it's a tough pill to swallow afterward . . . but if anyone was projecting beforehand, most pundits would have guessed 6th or 7th pick overall, give or take a number.
And Burke has most definitely NOT assured that he is done adding pieces . . . quite the contrary! He knows as well as anyone that our top two lines need more skill, and alongside hopes of young players like Bozak, Versteeg and maybe Kadri to fill a couple of those roles, he knows he needs another player or two in the near future. And I have every confidence, despite Burke's other minor failings, that he is working very hard to make any deals to get us another one or two top 6 forwards.
Putting things into perspective and seeing what Burke has done so far, one has to be impressed with the crap he's gotten rid of and the quality he has brought in, alongside such out of the blue signings as Bozak and Gustavsson to the mix.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 11:34:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2772
Wow, I agree with Beans on this one. Do you really believe that Seguin's worth will amount to no more than a Stajan Caliber player, or do you mean its possible that all he will be is a Stajan type player? Take a look at some of those players on Beans list that were picked second overall.
Also as the deal stands right now it Tyler Seguin and Jared Knight GP63 G36 A21 PTS57 for Kessel. I would argue Knight has as good a future as Kadri(GP56 G 35 A 58 PTS 93) Based on their OHL careers.
Ummm, did you look at the math of your arguement. Jared Knight 57 points in 63 games is as good as Kadri with 93 points in 56 games. Not a real good arguement there bud. Its ok, maybe your better at darts! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 11:57:46
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| Btw, remind me when in the tenure of JFJ the leafs finished in the 29th position in the league? To say anything positive about Burkes tenure at this point vs. JFJ record is laughable, both have made dumbass managerial moves for the Leafs which sacrificed there future. I do however see greater things for the Leafs this year. Between 8-9 in the eastern conference. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 13:08:47
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No need to explain your paraphrasing Slozo, that is exactly what I am saying. But don't forget that I have also been the one stating the same as you, that hindsight is 20/20 and that at the time Burke was making a deal for Kessel(a very gifted hockey player) for what he projected to be 2 middle to late round draft picks. Agreed, Kessel is value IF that happens.
But it didn't happen.
My argument, even from the start, is the value of draft picks. For anyone to say this deal still favors the Leafs is delusional. If Seguin meets anywhere near his potential, the deal is even at best. If either of the other two draft picks become any type of NHL player, it's simply illogically to say the deal favors the Leafs. If all three draft picks become solid NHL players, well, you get my point.
That being said, your point about Burke adding pieces is difficult to agree with. Sure, he wants to add pieces, but I think this summer of trying to moving Kaberle for value will tell you the Leafs are limited in assets. Burke's moves last season for Phaneuf and Giguere were his asset trades and I would agree he got the better part of both of those deals.
However, with few marketable assets in the closet that Burke actually wants to move along with a very limited supply of top draft picks over 2 seasons (this year and next) it is hard to see anything other than an abundance of youth in the TO picture. Unlike other teams that have and abundance of youth AND talent. As I stated above using the Oilers as an example, they are starting 3 rookies on forward alone and have 5-6 more prospects they may see through the year. 6-9 NHL ready rookies that are 20 years old or less.
The Leafs simply do not have that nor look to be able to start building it for at least one more draft. |
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Guest2876
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Posted - 10/05/2010 : 13:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2772
Wow, I agree with Beans on this one. Do you really believe that Seguin's worth will amount to no more than a Stajan Caliber player, or do you mean its possible that all he will be is a Stajan type player? Take a look at some of those players on Beans list that were picked second overall.
Also as the deal stands right now it Tyler Seguin and Jared Knight GP63 G36 A21 PTS57 for Kessel. I would argue Knight has as good a future as Kadri(GP56 G 35 A 58 PTS 93) Based on their OHL careers.
Ummm, did you look at the math of your arguement. Jared Knight 57 points in 63 games is as good as Kadri with 93 points in 56 games. Not a real good arguement there bud. Its ok, maybe your better at darts!
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 05:04:50
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Sorry guys, been away. Anyhow, of course I was commenting on the past as the future hasn't happened, and has obviously changed in the age of this years team.
A couple of names that came to mind without looking it up were Boyes and Rask, traded away without playing a single game.
I'm hoping the Leafs do much better, as I've said before, the city and the fans deserve better than they have recieved in 40+ yrs.
"Can't see the forest for the trees? BUY A CHAINSAW !!" |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 16:09:54
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| Toxx that Rask trade killed me as a leaf fan, unbelieveable. I took P.Berg in our draft pool this year, i think he is going to have a big year. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2010 : 19:43:06
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well the leafs sure look competative out there this year maybe we are all underestimating them,, i still say when its all said and done they will be one of 5 teams fighting for the final three playoff spots,, but they will deffinetly be a tough team to play against as they were so fond of saying last year,,, this year it looks to be the truth
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 10/09/2010 19:46:00 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 07:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
well the leafs sure look competative out there this year maybe we are all underestimating them,, i still say when its all said and done they will be one of 5 teams fighting for the final three playoff spots,, but they will deffinetly be a tough team to play against as they were so fond of saying last year,,, this year it looks to be the truth
Pasty
Let's not plan the parade route too quickly. Let's take another look at this team after about the 20 games mark when they have had a chance to test their medal against the likes of Pittsburgh, Washington, Vancouver, New Jersey, and Philladelphia.
I agree that the Kessel like looked good but everyone expected them too. How do the lines outside of that look?? Admittedly, I have not watched much of the first two games.
But let's not get too excited about a one goal win against Montreal and a blow out against a completely un-inspired Ottawa team. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 09:10:44
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C'mon Beans, don't rain on the Leafs fans joyous start to the season! While it may be the only time the Leafs are atop the standings this year, 2pts in Oct are worth the same as 2 pts in March!
Same goes for the 1-0 Blues!  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 11:54:38
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Heh beans, the leafs do look good as i said they would. Your lottery pick prediction will be way off this season. I predicted Toronto to fight for the division title this year, i know its a long, long way off, but time will tell.
Remember you said they definitely will be a lottery team, we shall see who will be right. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 11:56:25
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| Don`t underestimate the power of a team with a real NHL goalie, great goaltending breads confidence and the leafs have this this year in J.S.Giguere. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 12:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Don`t underestimate the power of a team with a real NHL goalie, great goaltending breads confidence and the leafs have this this year in J.S.Giguere.
jigger looks like the hall of famer he was on pace to be before he go derailed the last few years im happy for him he has always been by far one of my favorite goalies i personnally hope the leafs lose every game of the year 1 to 0 so as i habs fan and a giguere fan i get the best of both worlds hahaa but really i still think the division is way out of the Leafs reach but i could see the north east sending 4 teams to the playoffs again and the leafs contending for one of those spots
Pasty |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 15:38:29
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So far attitude is the difference for the Leafs. It is a big confidence boost to the players to come out and win the opener against a long time rival and then follow it up with a dominating game against another big rival.
I like what has happened to start the season. Compared to last seasons start how could Leaf fans not be little more excited about their team.
I love how the parade route comments come out just because the Leafs won their first two games. I haven't seen one comment about the Leafs winning the cup yet.
However most of the Oil fans have the Cup already in Edmonton, Eberle carrying the Con Smythe, Hall taking the Calder Trophy while MPS scores 50 and taking the Rocket Richard Trophy. Not bad after a 4-0 win over the Flames. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2010 : 17:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Heh beans, the leafs do look good as i said they would. Your lottery pick prediction will be way off this season. I predicted Toronto to fight for the division title this year, i know its a long, long way off, but time will tell.
Remember you said they definitely will be a lottery team, we shall see who will be right.
Like I said, it is 2 games in and they have not faced any real competition yet. Let's see where they are at after the 20 game mark before any opinions are formed.
And please, tell me when I said the Leafs would definitely be a lotto team?? I actually made the bet (and the statement) that I could see the Leafs as high as 11th in the East. I did say that they could also be a lottery pick easier than a play off team. However, I don't recall making any kind of outright claim they will be a lottery team.
But if you feel better about it. Cool. I said it. You are still 80 games away from the finish line. |
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The 2010/11 Toronto Maple Leafs 
