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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:05:33
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I actually just looked it up, Brian Burke was indeed the GM that brought Teemu Selanne back to Anaheim.
Burke joined the Ducks on June 20th, 2005...Selanne signed as a FA 2 months later, August 22nd, 2005.
I can't stand Burke, but i think he deserves A LOT of credit for that championship. For me the 5 most important players during that playoff run were Selanne, Niedermayer, Pronger, Getzlaf & Giguere...Burke brought in 3 of the 5. And as already stated he managed to deal away Sergei Fedorov, opening up the salary space for the above 3, and he was responsible for bringing in numerous members of the supporting cast as well. The teams strength was in their defense, and 3rd/4th defensemen Francois Beauchemin & Sean O'Donnell were both the results of Burke trades. |
Edited by - ryan93 on 01/23/2011 13:19:30 |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:13:34
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| Overlooked to is that Brian Burke was the one who hired rookie head coach Randy Carlyle. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:04:16
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Ok, I stand correctly. However, and I am just asking here, didn't Selanne basically say he wanted to go back to Anaheim at that point??? Same and Neidermayer wanting to play with his brother regardless of the team?? And Pronger was a gift.
Regardless, I disagree that Burke was the driving factor of that team winning. Getlaf, Perry, MacDonald, Kunitz, R. Neidermayer(and defacto S. Neidermayer), Giguere, Penner, and Bryzgalov were there and Burke has zero impact on that. In the case that Selanne wanted to come back to Anaheim I have a hard time giving that to Burke either.
Regardless, this battle will continue for decades. The point being discussed is the Leafs currently plan. I think we can all agree that the moves that Burke was credited with in both Vancouver and Anaheim have not manifested in Toronto. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 14:25:51
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He very well could of (Selanne wanting to go back to Anaheim that is), i honestly have no clue. And while i agree that yes there were a lot of the pieces already in place, without Burke coming on board & making those moves happen, who knows. As you said, perhaps we'd see both Niedermayer & Selanne both end up in Anaheim regardless of who the GM is. Without Burke though, maybe the Ducks don't pursue Pronger seeing as they already have 1 highly paid defensemen (assuming of course that S.Niedermayer would still have signed in ANA). Maybe they don't add the defenseive depth with important defenders such as Beauchemin & O'Donnell, etc etc etc. While by no means does Burke deserve all of the credit, IMO he still deserves a lot.
As for Toronto, they have always been my 2nd favorite team, but that team is a mess! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 15:22:20
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Ryan its hard to clean up a mess when you inherit a monster mess. Remember what Burke had to work with upon his arrival in TO, i sure do.
Sure all of his moves have not been perfect, but who is perfect ?? Sundin just walking away sure didn`t help the leafs. If he would have waived a great draft pick and prospect surely would have came back TO`s way.
He inherited a team with no guts, ( remember cancer ridden Blake getting punched in the face with no help from his team-mates, Stagen looking on and skating away ), no desire to win, No goaltender, terrible defense, no toughness, no center ice-man, no power forwards, and over-paid contracts with no-trade clauses given by JFJ. Along with this the Marlies under JFJ`s guidence were dead last in the AHL as usual with NO POTENTIAL talent to bring up and help out.
Antropov just scored his first goal in 15 games for the thrashers. When Stagen scored againist the leafs last week it was his first goal in 19 games....these were Burkes building blocks when he arrived in Toronto.
Although he has made a couple of bad moves since arriving, he has made multiple great ones. When you pull off 15 - 20 moves it is only natural that 2 - 3 will back-fire...only common sense.
The leafs do have many prospects now, before they had ZERO. The Marlies finally have a pool to pick from and are fighting for FIRST in their division, major, major improvement. I do see several bright spots in the leafs roster, before there was NOTHING. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 15:45:43
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Who are all of these Leafs prospects? I just looked through the Marlies roster and without using anything but stats, I don't see anything there. Their best prospects (Kadri, Mueller, Aulie) are no where near the top players in the AHL. Not even close. Heck, they are not even the best players on the Marlies!!
Who are all these prospects and why are the prospects?? Because TSN said so??
And we all know the past. Or the perceived past. Burke has done what to improve things?? Different players but the same results. Below average performance on the ice and below average talent on the farm.
Really, is this team much different than under the JFJ regime???
And don't act like the Leafs were the only team with issues. Anyone want to dig up what Tambellini had to work with when he took over? Nothing but overpaid, underacheiving players. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 18:31:07
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Beans you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph...what did Tambellini have to work with in Edmonton...??
Nothing much i guess, but does anyone in any of these forums analyze him to death or call him an idiot. This is what Slozo is constantly talking about, leaf bashing is a national past-time.
Maybe some of us are not in love with the Burke overall picture but sometimes you do ( as a leaf fan ) have to defend the guy with so much negative comments towards him.
Really, have the leafs gone backwards in your opinion ?? Maybe if another GM took over after JFJ they would be worse off than what they are now.
Nuxfan has posted a couple of times regarding ( in his opinion ) Burkes great additions while in Van. & Ana., adding greatly to both these teams successes. Do you agree with any of these comments ? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 18:52:54
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Yep, I agree that Burke did do some good stuff in Van and he did add some key pieces to Anaheim to help win that Cup.
He also traded away 2-1st round draft picks for a 30 goal scorer and banked his team on a 26 yr old premadonna defensemen who would rather make a big hit than play defense and is on pace for a killer 18 points just 2 years after scoring 60.
Each GM has good and bad moves in their career. Even Ken Holland is not perfect. Burke is not perfect either, but it is incredibly easy to be critical of a guy who made such blatant mistakes. And it's not Leaf Bashing. It's Leaf Fan bashing. You are the same person who was making outrageous claims of the Leafs winning the NE division at the start of the year. You are now the one making these' it's a work in progress' comments.
Why can't Leaf fans see the world as it is? The Leafs have not gotten better in the past 2 seasons under Burke's rule and they are not getting better unless they are doing through free agency. Burke did make some moves that were unexpected but his cards are played. He brought in Phaneuf and Kessel as his core and most hockey people can see that those two guys simply don't have the chops to lead a team anywhere. There is only two options. Go through UFA's or gut and rebuild again. So, if Richard's and the likes are not interested in Toronto this summer, what's next?? That's the entire point of this thread. What is the plan??
Leaf Bashing is not a national past time. It the Leaf Fans that make things so easy. No one is trashing the Sens or the Flames and both are in very similar situations as the Leafs. But they also do not have dilusional fans making outrageous claims about how good their team is or how good their team can be if this or if that. |
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Lunchbox
Top Prospect
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 01:29:58
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I think the problem in Leafs nation is that they always seem to think (sometimes rightly) that they are a marginal playoff team... but then they think all they have to do is slip into 8th, and they can go on a Cinderella run to the cup,
The problem is that this rarely (if ever) happens...I noticed a lot of posts at the beginning of the year saying that the Leafs were playoff bound this year blah blah blah, only need a few more pieces yadda yadda.
What usually happens? the leafs end up around 9th or 10th in the conference (besides last year), get a weaker position in the draft, and they get fooled into thinking the next year, they only need to turn a few more close losses into wins and they would have done it.
The thing is, if my team misses the playoffs, I want them to be the worst team in the league, because at least they can get a lottery pick (again, besides this year, which is different for Toronto obviously).
So it seems like Burke is trying the same thing Toronto's brass has been trying for the last decade: to push an 11th - 9th place team into the playoffs with a few quick fixes. If it had worked, good for him, but its been two years now, and as some Canuck fans have posted previously, Burke knows how to work a draft and rebuild scenario.
I really think that this would be the way to go if third time isn't a charm for these guys, which its looking like it won't be. |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 10:50:29
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Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Leafs are going to be cup contenders any time soon, but when you compare the team of today with the team from two years ago, there is a HUGE difference.
The team of a few years ago wasn't going anywhere. Just the amount of dead weight Burke has managed to shift to other teams is incredible. This new team might not have the genuine star power you need to make a cup winner, but they are young and improving. Looking at the Marlies is one thing, and the picture there isn't great, but you have to think that a lot of the players currently on the ice are still quite young, and many are only going to get better.
Kulemin, Grabovski and Macarthur have been among the most productive lines in the league for the past couple months. I doubt they will continue at that pace, but they are decent second line material. Bozak has barely played a full season, and he is really improving lately; I don't think anybody will have issues with a third line of Bozak, Versteeg and Armstrong. As for grinders, they have those a-plenty. So that leaves the fact that Kessel doesn't have the center he needs to really start lighting things up. I still don't know if it will happen, but plug the one major hole by adding a guy like Brad Richards to that lineup, and then try telling me this is not a huge improvement over the likes of Stajan, Antropov and Hagman.
As for D, consider Schenn, Gunnarsson, Beauchemin and Aulie as solid defenders (no, not an army of Mini-Prongers, just solid defenders) hope that Phaneuf can get closer to his early career form, and then hope that Komisarek did indeed punch that woman in LA so the team has an excuse to buy him out, and then all you're looking for is a replacement for Kaberle. I would honestly just try and re-sign him. But, you say, "thats pretty much the same D the Leafs have now, and they suck" Fair point. That's why the most obvious thing Burke needs to do is get a new coach, one better suited to developing younger players. I've watched and played enough hockey in my day to know that Wilson has lost a good part of the dressing room. These aren't bad defensemen, but this is a bad defense corps. Who's fault do you think that is?
As for goal, well, with young goalies who the hell knows what will happen? That's not particularily encouraging, but probably two thirds of the teams in the league have worries in net, and at least there are solid prospects in the system.
I watch most Leaf games, and I see a decent upside for this team in the next couple years. I never saw that during the JFJ years. Cup team in the making? Again, no. But it's not like if they aren't champions in next year or two the whole process is a failure and the Leafs will be doomed to sit at the bottom of the standings for all eternity.
Say what you want about Burke, he's not the miracle worker many have hyped him up to be, he's made a few mistakes, and he's misjudged the quality of some of his players and his coach. I'm still impressed with how quickly he blew out the absolutely horrible team he started with, I think several of the players he's brought in still have an upside, and I respect that he plays to win. You can roll over and play dead for a few years and then emerge with a good young core through the draft, but I'm sorry, that lacks, what's the word... truculence?
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
Edited by - TheRC on 01/24/2011 10:52:11 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 14:29:17
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I was waiting for the sage wisdom of the most impartial and objective Leaf fan on the site. Thanks RC! It's pretty hard to argue with many points.
The most specific point that I would agree with in the coaching department. It's hard to not see the changes the team has and the fact that, at least on paper, the Leafs today should be a more talented group of players. Yet, the performance is nearly identical to last year and the year before.
All fingers point to coaching.
So we could all talk until we are blue(no pun intended) in the face about what players should and could be doing, but I think we all can agree that a big part of the Leafs plan needs to include a new direction in the coaching.
This system does not work, regardless of the players involved. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 18:42:58
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And, as RC implied, keep your fingers crossed, 'cause Burke is basically rolling the dice.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 20:26:52
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Just finished watching the Leafs vs Ca. game, my optimism for this year has diminished . They gave it their best try ( with the exception of kessel ) and it just wasn`t good enough.
Fact of the matter is Toronto has a team comprised of a great 2nd line with a 3rd and 4th to follow. Toronto doesn`t have any 1st line players, NONE. They just don`t have the front line guys to carry the load, and on top of this their coaching staff are not coaching the mould as they should with no 1st line.
Giguere is too old and slow for todays game, his reflexes are gone and his groin problems are also an issue. The monster is full of holes whenever he plays and has absolutely no confidence in himself.
People wonder why TO`s defenseman played better else-where...its because they had better support from their forwards. Toronto`s defense are constantly ringing the puck around the boards with no wall support what-so-ever, other teams are simply stopping the puck and firing it back in putting more pressue on the D-core leading to goals, thus making them look bad, its not all their fault.
Toronto hasn`t got 1 single center to win a face-off regularly. Their puck control off the draw is non-existent, they spend 70 % of the game trying to chase the puck down after losing the draw, using up much needed energy.
Wonder why their power-play is so lousy ?? They lose every initial face - off and spend too much time recouping the puck, once in the opposing end finally, no-one fires from the point. no-one goes to the net and some-one makes a high risk pass and gets picked off....every time.
The turning point for this up and down maple leaf team came when James Reimer played 2 outstanding games in LA and SJ. He won a few games and bred new life in every leaf player who dawns the Jersey. They played their best hockey of the season and scored regularly with their new found hero between the pipes. When leafs management then sent him back down to the AHL it was as if they kicked every leaf player in the guts....and it certainly showed the next game against the Flames.
It doesn`t matter if Reimer was for real or not, he gave them a much needed lift in a season with such turmoil, and it left just as fast as it came. This huge mistake by the leafs management, ( yes another one ) ended all hope right there and then, all because of politics and contracts.
Why not keep this kid going ? He was the best single thing to happen to the leafs all season. Who sez he can`t keep it up ? Cam Ward did it at the age of 21 and hasn`t looked back since. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2011 : 20:50:01
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Topic is...whats the plan for Toronto ?? , next season...
They need...a 1st line LW...1st line RW...1st line Center ( two of these 3 with size )
Trade Giguere or let him walk ( free up 6.5 mil cap space ).
Give the Monster 1 full year with the Marlies...and just see...
Pick up a solid experienced goalie, ( Bryz. maybe ) and have Reimer as his backup.
Try to rid themselves of Komisarek`s contract and maybe trade Beauch. for a top prospect.
Trade Kaberle for a pick and a prospect.
Through UFA get the best available D-man who is younger and more physical than kaberle with some offensive up-side.
Bring up Aulie and maybe ( Holzer or similar D-man )
Of course the first need is almost impossible to fill and i realize this, but i`m just listing what they need, ( in my opinion ) After the 1st line requirements not being filled of course, all other moves can be realistic....its a start !
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LEAFS. Whats the plan in toronto.. 
