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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2011 : 15:24:23
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One would have to think that he could have done so.
He was directly responsible for some pretty good draft picks:
- Sedins
- Umberger (never played for the Canucks but has turned out well in CBJ)
- Bieksa, in the 5th round
- Kesler
He would have also been directly involved in the 2004 draft (he was let go in May or June of that year), which produced Shneider, Edler, and Hansen. His replacement was Nonis - his right hand man then and today in Toronto - who had a very Burke-ish mindset and drafted Bourdon (now dead) and Raymond the following year - I like to think that Burke would have made the same drafts in that year.
The one thing that you can never predict is trades and UFA signings - so much of that is based on individual GM views. Would Burke have signed Burrows in 2005 as an undrafted prospect? Made the landmark trade for Luongo? Erhoff, Ballard, Samuelsson?
Vancouver today has been built over the last 10 years from mostly drafts, but some significant trades as well. As the trades are impossible to predict, I can't say whether or not we'd have the same team today under Burke.
One thing is for sure though - he gets lauded as a highly successful GM, but the one real success he has had, that he has made himself, is today's Canucks. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 16:42:12
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So you have named exactly 6 players that Burke has his hand in. How many players are there today and were there during Burke's time??
If you say less than 1/2 the team, I can't see how Burke get's credit for that team. It's like Burke getting credit for Anaheim. Burke brought in something like 7 of the players on that team. Every other player was there already. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 16:59:47
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Sure, but Burke was last our GM 7 years ago. How many NHL teams today have more than 6 players that were also on their teams in 2003/4? The only one that I can find is DET.
BTW, I count Burke in on 8 - I am considering the 2004 draft year as Burke's year, he was fired less than a month before the draft. And of those 8 players, 7 are current members of the Canucks core team (Sedin's, Kesler, Edler, Bieksa, Schneider, Hansen), the other one (Umberger) being traded because he felt he was worth more money. The only ones he didn't draft that I consider invaluable members of our current team are Luongo, Hamhuis and Erhoff. Looking back, that is a pretty outstanding track record of drafting over a 6 year period. Its even more outstanding that the Canucks organization have managed to hang on to them all and use them to build the team that we have now.
I agree though that ANA is different - Burke gets a lot of credit for winning that cup, but all he did was tinker with bit parts - the core of that team had been drafted before his time. That is not the case with Vancouver.
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Edited by - nuxfan on 01/21/2011 17:02:42 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 17:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So here is an interesting question. Using what you know today in Burke's activities since his departure from Vancouver, is the team better today or worse than if Burke was still the GM??? Do you think Burke would have brought this team to where it is today???
There's really no telling. It's a great question, but who really knows? I won't even offer an opinion as it'd be biased from my hatred towards Burke. I give him credit for one thing, or do you call it two? The twins! He made a bold move to get them both at the draft and look how they've panned out. Gotta admit, for a number of years, they looked like 2nd liners at best.
Who knows what kind of moves Burke would have made if he stuck around? Maybe we'd be even better off than we are? But i love what Gillis has done. Luongo, Burrows and the Sedins are locked in at great cap hits. Kesler, well, without going into that whole debate about whether or not he's overpaid, let's just call his "manageable" and most of the other aquisitions he's made have panned out pretty good. For a "new" GM, i think he's done really well.
There may not be a cup here just yet, but hey, the parade route's planned!  |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 17:36:36
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Burke may very well have drafted similar to those who've followed. This is because the GM listens to his scouts an awful lot!
As Nuxfan hit on, it's the FA signings and trades that are the tough ones to tell. I'm not about to sit here and say Burke wouldn't have made some of these moves (or similar ones) but he might have done even better (but perhaps worse?)?
However, if he'd traded "our" (sorry Beans) next two first rounders and a 2nd for Kessel, it wouldn't have been so bad! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 22:03:54
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Alex, true enough. Even when the Canucks had top-10 picks in the draft, they have a horrible record of drafting badly in the first round - either unlucky or just don't pan out. Sedin's and Kesler excluded. I'd happily wager our next 2 first rounders on Kessel - he'd look great on a line with Kesler.
Trade for Knuble as well, and you could have a KKK line. All American too...  |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/21/2011 22:04:25 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 22:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Alex, true enough. Even when the Canucks had top-10 picks in the draft, they have a horrible record of drafting badly in the first round - either unlucky or just don't pan out. Sedin's and Kesler excluded. I'd happily wager our next 2 first rounders on Kessel - he'd look great on a line with Kesler.
Trade for Knuble as well, and you could have a KKK line. All American too...
Not sure if i misunderstood you, or vice versa, but i was actually referring to the fact that the picks would be in the late 20's, not 2nd and ??? overall. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 22:51:56
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| Yeah, I got it - was just having some fun. I still maintain that the Canucks have a pretty poor record for drafting and developing first round draft picks - the Sedin's, Kesler, and Schneider are the only standouts in the last 15 years, and Schneider will likely be gone soon as well. I have diminishing hopes for Hodgson, and not much hope for Schroeder. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 00:04:36
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It's crazy, Hodgson was, imo, the best player in the Juniors (WJC) that year that Tavares won the MVP. Still think Hodgson deserved it. I really hope he amounts to something.
Schneider is a tough one. It's been pretty much known around here that he'll be gone sooner or later but i sure hope we (oops, there's that "we" again) get something good in return!
Schroeder is looking less and less like a good pick, i agree. It'll be interesting to see what comes of him?
Oops, sorry, is this a Leafs thread?  |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 06:22:31
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I can't help but weigh in on the Leafs/Oiler debate
Really can the comparison be made on anything but the product that is on the ice today.
You can argue GMs but they are not even close yet. Burke is a proven hockey guy like him or not he has huge say in the GM circles of the NHL. Tambellini is impressive but has not yet developed the resume yet of Burke or Murray or McPhee or Yzerman for that manner.
You can argue coach's but that is ridiculous, Wilson is a 600 game winner and in the hockey world that means you are a good coach in the NHL. Renney, well he has pretty much been average every where he has gone. Good coach back when he was with Hockey Canada though, was part of that run of gold medal losses to the Russians wasn't he?
You can argue prospects, but that is the biggest unknown of any team. That is why they are called prospects. There will be failures and surprises from each teams prospects so it is not even worth the the mention.
The only real comparison is what is on the ice today and from what I see from the NHL standings, the Leafs are 8 points better then the Oilers. The Leafs have 5 players with more points then the Oilers leading point getter. The Leafs have 4 players with more goals then the Oilers leading goal scorer. In goal the Leafs have an edge in GAA but lose a edge to Oil tenders in SV% and DUIs. Neither team have a legitimate Rookie of the year candidate, Hart Trophy candidate, Norris Candidate or candidate for any hardware for that manner.
The Oil without a doubt will finish last in the West, no contest. The Leafs, thanks to the Devils, will finish somewhere above last in the East.
At somepoint any star that does develop in Oil country will want out just like every other star that has played there since 1990. Meanwhile TO has become a desired destination for players who (with few exceptions) don't want to leave. Just ask the Muskoka 5.
And to top it off, TO will always recieve more television rights and air time then the Oil could ever imagine. Thats just the way it is when TO has the largest fanbase in the NHL. I am sure it would be different if the Oil had more fans.
The argument between two teams is always settled by pointing to the scoreboard to make their point, and then usually the losing team shuts up and goes pouting into the dressing room. Look at the scoreboard. Leafs are clearly the better team today then the Oilers and IMO that is the only comparison that can be made right now. Next year we will do it again and then maybe Oil fans will be the ones pointing towards the scoreboard. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 01/22/2011 06:25:10 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 07:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
Cheerleaders?
Are you sure you don't mean Strawleaders???
I guess we both wear blue-tinted goggles, just slightly different shades.
You see a well pedigree'd GM, which I won't argue, and I simply implied that he made hollow promises, I never questioned his resume, just his statements. Tambellini may not have the profile of Burke, but at least he know when not to say the 'P' word. 
Free agents and drafting are tenuous at best, but Edmonton clearly has an advantage in their draftees, Hall and Eberle alone are more than just 'somewhat promising', geez, man!, they're playing and contributing, not developing with the moniker of 'could be amazing', as yet unproven.
As far as the last 10 games win/loss record? Until one makes the playoffs and the other doesn't, their tee-off times are similar enough that it doesn't matter.
Anyways. I was the one who gave up my Oilers as the blow out leaders, It's a Leaf fan taking it and making..... hay ......with it. 
I guess we both wear tinted glasses? Not really . . . if you got the reason for my post in the first place, it was to point out to all that one could get the exact opposite conclusion you came to by filling in a lot of blanks you purposefully left out. Left out, of course, to make the Oil look better, and the Leafs look brutal.
In a few years when you guys think you may have a contender, have fun losing 6-5 instead of 4-0 . . . at least it'll be exciting.
If Edmonton is the "right way" of building a team, who are your potential goalies of the future? You have any solid D-man prospects? Aren't championships built from the net out? Because I think trying to reach back in time for another Oilers dynasty built on pure offence is seriously lacking in all perspective . . .
. . . but again, I'd rather talk more at length about that in an Oiler thread. 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4050
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Posted - 01/22/2011 : 07:34:40
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Chop biased Leaf fan much?? What do the leafs have to offer that makes them desireable to any player? If Toronto is such a desireable destination for players why hasn't their been a high quality forward since Sundin left.... Crickets Chirping through the silence. O sorry mind was wandering on how the leafs never got the likes of Kovalchuk, Hossa, Richards, Savard, Gaborik should i continue or has the desire for players to join Toronto not sunken in yet.
When Pittsburgh and Chicago sucked the hine tit then 3 yrs later won the cup that wasn't a result of draft picks right? it was more of a representation of their original talent on the ice right? Come on man draft picks dont always pan out but almost every team in every sport builds their team around draft picks so to say their is no relevance in discussing draft picks is simply absurd. When you are a leaf fan though i guess you sooner take that out of the picture so your future does not look so bleak.
Wash, Phil, Pitt, Atl, TB, Mtl, NYR all teams a head of you in the east are compiled mostly with their past draft picks that took them from relative insignificance to quality teams now so their is no importance their right? Maybe 5 - 7yrs ago when you could buy a championship like the Wings did with a huge payroll but in this new salary cap era it is proven that developing draft picks is critical and for you to argue otherwise either shows ignorance to reality or a real hope that the leafs have a genie in a lamp to create some miracles for them.
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 07:35:24
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Last post was mine.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 09:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4050
Chop biased Leaf fan much?? What do the leafs have to offer that makes them desireable to any player? If Toronto is such a desireable destination for players why hasn't their been a high quality forward since Sundin left.... Crickets Chirping through the silence. O sorry mind was wandering on how the leafs never got the likes of Kovalchuk, Hossa, Richards, Savard, Gaborik should i continue or has the desire for players to join Toronto not sunken in yet.
[i]Yes I am a bias Leaf fan, but my post was only comparing Leafs/Oilers like previous posts in this thread. You must have proof that the Leafs pursued these players or more so that these players did not want to join the Leafs, Are U an NHL GM or maybe U R Nick Kypreos with all the inside information. I also only said that TO has become a desired destination whos players do not want to leave. Please continue with your incredible inside knowledge of where and with whom U know players want to play
When Pittsburgh and Chicago sucked the hine tit then 3 yrs later won the cup that wasn't a result of draft picks right? it was more of a representation of their original talent on the ice right? Come on man draft picks dont always pan out but almost every team in every sport builds their team around draft picks so to say their is no relevance in discussing draft picks is simply absurd. When you are a leaf fan though i guess you sooner take that out of the picture so your future does not look so bleak
Really, every sport? Even the English Premier league Soccer Teams? The Elite India Cricket League? How about the League of Underwater Basket Weavers? Every NFL team builds solely around draft picks? Each and every NBA team, lets say like the Orlando Magic, LA Lakers, Boston Celtics (all teams at the top of the league) look it up and see how many of their own draft picks they have playing. Just remember you said EVERY sport. Big statement with no proof. You name 2 two NHL teams out 30 built around draft picks that have had success. Percentage wise that is not very good.
Wash, Phil, Pitt, Atl, TB, Mtl, NYR all teams a head of you in the east are compiled mostly with their past draft picks that took them from relative insignificance to quality teams now so their is no importance their right? Maybe 5 - 7yrs ago when you could buy a championship like the Wings did with a huge payroll but in this new salary cap era it is proven that developing draft picks is critical and for you to argue otherwise either shows ignorance to reality or a real hope that the leafs have a genie in a lamp to create some miracles for them.
Funny I thought I weighed in on an Oiler/Leaf debate and I talked about prospects not draft picks. Prospects can be found in a variety of ways, not necessarily throught the draft. Just like Marty St. Louis, he was never drafted. What U R saying is U can't build a team with a Marty St. Louis because he was not a draft pick of Tampa, I am sure Tampa and Yzerman would disagree with that. A prospect may not necessarily have been drafted by the team that they are on. And my statement was simple enough that prospects can be failures and successes. In the NHL there is alot more prospects that never play in the NHL then there is is that do. Need we talk about Alexandre Daigle, Marc Denis, Patrik Stefan, and countless other sure hit prospects that failed miserably. That is the point. So for u to ramble on about buying cups and having to build through the draft yada yada yada blah blah blah shows ignorance to reality of how the NHL is as a business. [/i]
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Edited by - Porkchop73 on 01/22/2011 09:53:47 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:14:38
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Slozo, the Oilers currently have Dubnyk, Pitton, and Roy as their potential goalies. None are stand out elite players(today) but none are hacks either. One defense. they have Whitney who is just 26, Smid under 26, Jeff Petry, Theo Peckham, Taylor Chorney, Alexe Plante, Johan Motin, Richard Piotet, and Shawn Belle.
Granted, I don't expect your admitted lack of having any idea what happens in Edmonton to know those players, but that's the typical ignorance in this argument. Much like the ignorance displayed by Chop in his 'no Calder potentail" players with the Oilers. Even though the Oilers currently have 3 rookies in the top 15 in points, including Hall who is 4th and just 4 points out of 2nd in rookie scoring.
It must by Saturday. Nothing but typical Leaf crap everywhere you look. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:16:19
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quote:
The only real comparison is what is on the ice today and from what I see from the NHL standings, the Leafs are 8 points better then the Oilers. The Leafs have 5 players with more points then the Oilers leading point getter. The Leafs have 4 players with more goals then the Oilers leading goal scorer. In goal the Leafs have an edge in GAA but lose a edge to Oil tenders in SV% and DUIs. Neither team have a legitimate Rookie of the year candidate, Hart Trophy candidate, Norris Candidate or candidate for any hardware for that manner.
The Oil without a doubt will finish last in the West, no contest. The Leafs, thanks to the Devils, will finish somewhere above last in the East.
If this is the thinking in TO, then I can see the Leafs are going to continue to fail for years to come. Look through all those trees guys, there is a forest there as well! Teams like TOR (and EDM) should be thinking about the future, not the present - in the present they both lose. EDM is addressing their future now, what is TOR doing?
quote:
You can argue prospects, but that is the biggest unknown of any team. That is why they are called prospects. There will be failures and surprises from each teams prospects so it is not even worth the the mention.
I'm not really sure why I'm defending the Oilers here... but I find it interesting that EDM constantly gets put down for their roster of rookies from TOR fans. Can't help but think that if Hall, Eberle, and MPS were all playing for TOR right now, we'd never hear the end of the "next one is ours", "TOR is set for the future", "in 3 years we'll dominate" mantra. Hall would be a guaranteed rookie of the year, Eberle would be the next Gilmour. The cup would be 2 or 3 years away. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:50:15
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*Sorry to everyone else who is interested in Hockey but Chop felt the need to make a pointless and overall sport comment. So you can bypass if you are only interested in hockey or scroll directly to the bottom of the post for strictly hockey response*
I thought we where mature enough to keep it to North American sports not to mention football, soccer, basketball & baseball either have no salary caps or their payrolls are 8 times the size of nhls. If you would like to include Soccer please use Barcelona as your example who are by far the best team in the world and are notorious for bringing players up through their system ever hear of guys like Xavi, Iniesta, and this guy named Messi all a result of their development system. Draft picks still insignifcant? Well let me help your arguements some more
These basketball teams you speak of besides the fact your ignorance allowed you to dismiss the fact that basketball is a sport that you can buy championships thus why 3 teams own more then 50% of the titles ever won. You clearly forgot that these best in the leagues teams you speak of are built around their draft picks / prospects. LA Lakers, Best Player Kobe Bryant (Draft pick, honourable mention to Bynum) sure other great players brought on board but their just another team without Kobe. Boston Celtics two best players Paul Pierce & Rajon Rando (Draft picks) and boston is just an overage decent team without them & the Orlando Magic two best players Dwight Howard, Jameer Nelson (Draft Picks) Had you wanted to prove a part of your point the Miami Heat would of been your best example of Wholesale buying but that type of thing cannot be accomplished in the NHL as the salary cap prevents such a thing. Your insignificance & lack ot overall sports knowledge carries on
By no means am i Kypreos nor do i wish to be as Kypreos has a 3rd of the hockey knowledge Pierre Macguire does. Leave it up to a leaf fan to use a homer analogy in an attempt to be smug you may have bumped your head like Kyp did though. Nor am I a GM but if s**t is brown i will tell you its brown and if a proven formula of drafting players with a salary cap is the way to win a cup then i will stick with the proven formula.
All your ignorance did was cause you to focus on other sports that are not comparible to the nhl because their markets are 8 - 10X the size and therefore money is not an issue. Thus i show you Detroit prior to salary cap with the ability to buy talented players and win cups. Teams now built through draft picks and prospects i apoligize that i failed to include the few non drafted players that come around as frequently as leafs 100 point seasons. (Cups would be rude to other leaf fans who didn't feel the need to bring up other leagues that the nhl cannot compete with economically as example.)
If you can show me 3 teams in the Nhl ranked in the top 15; do yourself one better and find 5 teams out of 29 (exclude the leafs as they remove all their draft picks ) that dont have atleast 7 - 10 draft picks playing a key roll in their teams success or failure i will gladly bow down to you and acknowledge that your overall sports knowledge is superior to everyone else especially my own aka Kypreos. Until then you just furthered my point that even in Sports with loads of money draft picks are still essential but thanks for the attempted diversifed sports lesson. Do yourself & your boy Kyp a favour and stick to hockey which this thread should be about.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 10:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
[quote]
I'm not really sure why I'm defending the Oilers here... but I find it interesting that EDM constantly gets put down for their roster of rookies from TOR fans. Can't help but think that if Hall, Eberle, and MPS were all playing for TOR right now, we'd never hear the end of the "next one is ours", "TOR is set for the future", "in 3 years we'll dominate" mantra. Hall would be a guaranteed rookie of the year, Eberle would be the next Gilmour. The cup would be 2 or 3 years away.
Here here!! Exactly.
Not only the comments that would be a heard out of the Leaf nation if they had some young, aspiring talent. But imagine if the Oilers made the trades that the Leafs did last year?? Phaneuf would be a complete bum and a waste of money with his pace of 1 goal and 18 points. He would not be 'given more time.' Giguere?? Well, there is a perfect example. No one can tell me there is a landslide improvement between Giguere or Khabibulin. Both have one Cup in their career and Giguere is nearly a decade from his Conn Smythe. However, Khabibulin is old and showing his age and Giguere is a solid contributing vet who should stay to help bring the young guys along.
It's the blue tinted glasses, the most biased fans(generally speaking) in the NHL and many of them post daily on PUH. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 11:46:47
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Would like to comment on some points being made....
As for Burke saying, playoffs is our goal....and Tambellini not....what would you like your GM to say, oh were crap and i know we are not going anywhere ??...Tambellini had good reason not to mention the playoffs because he knew it would be a pipe-dream.....( at least the leafs had some expectations coming into the season ) but did T.Renney not say several weeks ago that he would be surprised if these Oilers didn`t make the playoffs this year ???...or something along these lines.
When it comes to these teams prospects, other than Hall and maybe Eberle, none of these players may not become great NHL regulars, who knows. They are what they are Beans, prospects. How do you know any of these players you listed will be better than TO`s prospects. Hall and Eberle yes, as for the rest who knows ?? Blacker, Ross, Aulie, Diamgo, Irwin, Kadri and Mckegg i think are supposed to be blue - chip leaf prospects, maybe one of them will be great.
As for the average drafted prospect, they mean diddely - squat, if the leafs ( or any other team ) sign a free agent player with $$$, ( eg ) Colby Armstrong, F.Beauch....and a team like the Oliers for example ( who are building through the draft ) use 2 prospects to fill their team needs...WHATS THE DIFFERENCE ?? Unless the drafted pick is an Hall or Seguin, the team signing the hand - picked UFA will probably be ahead....WHO CARES ABOUT MEDIUM TALENT DRAFTEES ??...they are a complete wash !!!
Guest 4050 ( Mario ?? )
As for your comments about Kova., Hossa, Savard, Gaborik not coming to the leafs...i think its the opposite. Did you ever think that maybe the leafs didn`t want to tie up a s*** load of cap space in these over-paid ( massive long term contract )...non - aggressive playoff performers, with the exception of Savard maybe.
Kovy is a floater, look how great NJ has become with him. Hossa isn`t very aggressive, with no team committment and loyality where-ever he goes. Gaborik is injury prone and has been known to disappear when it gets rough. Savard has a very, very long contract and multiple concussions. I`m glad TO hasn`t signed any of these guys you mentioned, hand - cuffing them for years.
What Richards are you talking about not coming to TO ?? I can`t remember TO having a shot at either, when did this happen ?
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 11:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
The only real comparison is what is on the ice today and from what I see from the NHL standings, the Leafs are 8 points better then the Oilers. The Leafs have 5 players with more points then the Oilers leading point getter. The Leafs have 4 players with more goals then the Oilers leading goal scorer. In goal the Leafs have an edge in GAA but lose a edge to Oil tenders in SV% and DUIs. Neither team have a legitimate Rookie of the year candidate, Hart Trophy candidate, Norris Candidate or candidate for any hardware for that manner.
The Oil without a doubt will finish last in the West, no contest. The Leafs, thanks to the Devils, will finish somewhere above last in the East.
If this is the thinking in TO, then I can see the Leafs are going to continue to fail for years to come. Look through all those trees guys, there is a forest there as well! Teams like TOR (and EDM) should be thinking about the future, not the present - in the present they both lose. EDM is addressing their future now, what is TOR doing?
quote:
You can argue prospects, but that is the biggest unknown of any team. That is why they are called prospects. There will be failures and surprises from each teams prospects so it is not even worth the the mention.
I'm not really sure why I'm defending the Oilers here... but I find it interesting that EDM constantly gets put down for their roster of rookies from TOR fans. Can't help but think that if Hall, Eberle, and MPS were all playing for TOR right now, we'd never hear the end of the "next one is ours", "TOR is set for the future", "in 3 years we'll dominate" mantra. Hall would be a guaranteed rookie of the year, Eberle would be the next Gilmour. The cup would be 2 or 3 years away.
A comparsion of todays on ice product is a direct comparison of the improvement each club has made to date. Some one else posted they started their rebuild at around the same point so I felt compelled to do a comparison today. But somehow you turned that into the Leafs will fail for years to come. Brilliant logic. And I can't see the forest for the trees.......ummm what? How does that even make sense in the middle of your post. Unless you are refering to you not being able to see the point I was making.
Where did I put down the Oil rookies, they are an impressive bunch for sure. But these are players on the Oil roster today which adds to the excitement Oil fans should have, they are no longer prospects but an important piece of the Oil puzzle. Hence the comparisons of the on ice product.
I have hard time finding anywhere where I said how the Oil are rebuilding is wrong and or how the way the Leafs are doing is right. Never said that anywhere. In fact never said the Oil were right and Leafs are wrong.. In my other reply to SuperMario there (aka the hockey insider) I make my point of the draft is not the only way to build prospects.
Unlike how non leaf fans who hack at everything Leaf, I never even took a shot a Oil fans in my comparison. Nor did I say the Oil are the worst at anything. It was a simple comparison of on ice product (with a little jab at the end admittingly).
Beans - really, ignorance displayed by me - Hall is a fine player but he is certainly running third in the Calder campaign to Jeff Skinner and Logan Coutoure. Hall really needs a strong finish to get into the top two. That does not mean that Hall is not going to do exactly that or be a superstar, maybe even next year, ie Stamkos. Eberle and MPS are not even in the equation but excellent rookies all the same. Stop reading between the lines and then try to claim ignorance on my part. Or did you not get my point.
I love how my comparison was taken as a total diss of the Oil, when in fact all I did was compare what happens to be MY two favourite hockey teams in NHL as they are on the ice today. But because you all know I am a Leaf fan well I am just plain ignorant.
So, other then the jab at the end about stars wanting to leave Edmonton, someone point out where I said the Oil rookies are crap or the Oil have no future or the Oil organization is heaps of ruins or the Oil are wrong in their rebuilding process and the Leafs are the kings of the entire universe.
All my comparison did was, If we are saying the Oil and Leafs started their rebuilding at the same time, then the Leafs are doing better today. Do I say that again or are we not seeing the forest for the trees! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 11:53:31
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By the way Beans...as for your Burke Bashing....THE MAIN CORE of Vancouver`s success was put their directly by B. Burke. ( H.Sedin, D.Sedin, R.Kesler ) Everything else was built around them, if not for this CORE, this team would still be like every other team.
Where were the Ducks before Burkes arrival ?? Did he not bring in many peices to win the Stanley Cup ?? Maybe if another GM would have taken them over and moved in another direction they would still not have a Stanley Cup !!! Very unfair Bashing by you i think, i maybe don`t like the man but he is a proven WINNER !!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 12:12:11
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Well, the Oilers rebuild started after the Leafs but who gonna bring up one little year. Secondly, Calder CANDIDATE. Does that not mean a player who is in the running and potentially getting nominated?? Nope, the Oilers have none of those. Not Hall and not Eberle who was right in the running until an injury. Even Pajaarvi has 18 points. That's 12 more than all of the Leafs rookies combined.
And to compare teams is not a measure against their improvement. A measure against that team and what they have done since the 'rebuild' is reasonable.
Duke, I am not sugar coating anything anymore. If you can't see that Burke already had Getzlaf, Penner, Perry, Selanne, and Gigiuere there already and had a gift wrapped Neidermayer and Pronger deals than I can't help you. Bobby Ryan was a draft pick of Burke's and really the only decent move that he made in Anaheim. He was also the one who allowed all but 4 of the Anaheim players become UFA's in the same season. Brilliant hockey management, right??
So he made a trade to draft the 2nd Sedin and drafted Kesler. I never questioned his abilities to see good draft picks in high positions but name me a GM that can't draft a top 5 pick?? In some cases the draft pick is given to the GM, not the other way around. It's like saying Ray Shero is a genius for picking Sidney Crosby. Tell me some players outside of a top 5 draft pick that Burke has drafted?? Secondly, who brought in Malhotra, Torres, Erhoff, Edler, Luongo, et al into Vancouver??? It wasn't Burke. The team taht Burke built couldn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs and still hasn't. If they do this year, it is based on the changes made since Burke left as his team wasn't successful.
Regardless, over time I will continue to poke at the Leafs as they continue to get older and crappier while the Oilers continue to draw off the never ending fountain of talented youth. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 12:26:56
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Mario it is you who said EVERY OTHER SPORT DEVELOPS THROUGH THEIR DRAFT. From your reply I can tell you need to spend more time on your research before posting.
3 teams in the top 15 or
5 teams out of 29 without 7 to 10 players of their current roster, drafted by them, making a significant contribution......hmmm I'll bite
Philly, Phoenix, Boston - 3 teams in the top 15 in the NHL that DON'T have 7 to 10 of their own drafted players on the current roster making a significant contribution to the teams succes. Really a shame isn't it, every player as a role on a team whether you think it a key role or not. Again you prove your ignorance.
Do me a favour and remain standing, no need to bow, i hate grovelling.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 12:39:56
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| Beans, I digress. I did say candidate in my post and Hall would fit the definition of legitimate candidate. When making the post I was thinking of players who would be definite winners and IMO Hall is in third in the Calder race. To appease all the bashers, the Leafs have absolutely no one within distance of being a Calder candidate. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:01:24
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Porkchop, i'm horrified at your "on ice today" comparison. So much so, that i will keep this short for now to save a moderators time in lecturing me if i really said what i feel about your post. Serioulsy, just go re-read that nonsense and maybe, just maybe you'll understand where i'm coming from. Just answer me this, cuz this is more where the conversation was until you came along and threw a curveball into the mix.
If i offered you a million dollars to predict which team would be higher in the standings in 2-3 years from now between Toronto and Edmonton, who'd you pick?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
LA Lakers, Best Player Kobe Bryant (Draft pick, honourable mention to Bynum) sure other great players brought on board but their just another team without Kobe.
Mario......i get where you were going with your "draftee" post and i agree. One thing i did notice, was you said Kobe was drafted by LA. Well, i recalled him being drafted by Charlotte actually and then dealt to LA. Before i called you on it, i decided to research it and found this from wikipedia:
1996 NBA DraftThe first guard to ever be taken out of high school, Bryant was chosen as the 13th overall draft pick by the Charlotte Hornets in 1996.[27] However, according to Arn Tellem, Bryant's agent at the time, Bryant playing for the Charlotte Hornets was "an impossibility".[28] However, Bill Branch, the Hornets' head scout at the time, said that the Hornets agreed to trade their draft selection to the Lakers the day before the draft. The Lakers didn't tell the Hornets who to select until five minutes before the pick was made.[29] Prior to the draft, Bryant had worked out in Los Angeles, in which he scrimmaged against former Lakers players Larry Drew and Michael Cooper, and according to then-Laker manager Jerry West "marched over these people".[30] On July 1, 1996, West traded his starting center, Vlade Divac, to the Hornets in exchange for Bryant's draft rights.[31] Since he was still 17 at the time of the draft, his parents had to cosign his contract with the Lakers until he was able to sign his own when he turned 18 before the season began.[32]
So, in reality, while he wasn't drafted "BY" them, he certainly was "picked" by them. Kinda makes you wrong and right at the same time! lol |
Edited by - Alex116 on 01/22/2011 13:04:08 |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 13:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Porkchop, i'm horrified at your "on ice today" comparison. So much so, that i will keep this short for now to save a moderators time in lecturing me if i really said what i feel about your post. Serioulsy, just go re-read that nonsense and maybe, just maybe you'll understand where i'm coming from. Just answer me this, cuz this is more where the conversation was until you came along and threw a curveball into the mix.
If i offered you a million dollars to predict which team would be higher in the standings in 2-3 years from now between Toronto and Edmonton, who'd you pick?
Nonesense? Horrified? Why is wrong to compare the Leafs and Oil as they are today? What makes it nonesense? Truth is, in the NHL standings, the Leafs are ahead of the Oilers.
Answer to your question - Oilers
Alex, with all due respect, I have never once said the Oil were not better placed for the future then the Leafs.
Answer me this Alex - If I had made on "on ice today" comparison of the Oil and Isles would you be horrified? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 14:00:14
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Although I would not say 'nonsense' as a description of that post, I would perfer to use a phrase such as, "I am intersted in learning more about this unique and challenging opinion."
In other words, what???
Leaf fans, what can you do. There is a significant shortage of either optometrists or Lenscrafters in Toronto as they seem to see the world far differently than those outside of TO.
I would like to see a list of Oiler players who have left since 2000. Let's talk about the relevant past, not 20 years ago. And what on God's green earth does TV rights have to do with the team???
Need I continue?? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 01/22/2011 16:11:38 |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 14:06:55
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Chop both the bruins & Coyotes have 6players, unfortunately the Flyers have 7. 8 if you include that Bobrovski was brought over from Russia like Gustavsoon for the leafs. I will tilt a bit but i bow cannot be completed until the task is accomplished
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 14:56:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Chop both the bruins & Coyotes have 6players, unfortunately the Flyers have 7. 8 if you include that Bobrovski was brought over from Russia like Gustavsoon for the leafs. I will tilt a bit but i bow cannot be completed until the task is accomplished
Lemieux owns Gretzky
I don't think undrafted players should count as that does not support your arguement of draft players, also then the Leafs would have 9 players with 12 having played at least one game. IMO it goes against your arguement.
Ok so we have the Bruins and Yotes take the Flyers off and add NYR, they have 6
The Wild have six on the current roster but have had 8 of their draft picks play at least 1 game (not sure if that counts, its your game)
The Flames they have 5 but have had 6 draft picks play at least one game.
Tampa has 6 and 7 have played at least one game.
Anaheim currently has 5
There is 7 out of 29 with Boston, Phoenix, Tampa and Anaheim in the top 15
I must admit a difficult task and I had to go and look at some these closely. Well challenged and I give u a nod. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 15:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Although I would not say 'nonsense' as a description of that post, I would perfer to use a phrase such as, "I am intersted in learning more about this unique and challenging opinion."
In other words, what???
Leaf fans, what can you do. There is a significant shortage of either optometrists of Lenscrafts in Toronto as they seem to see the world far differently than those outside of TO.
I would like to see a list of Oiler players who have left since 2000. Let's talk about the relevant past, not 20 years ago. And what on God's green earth does TV rights have to do with the team???
Need I continue??
OK so I was bored out of my mind today, i had to watch the kids and there is absolutely nothing to do and I haven't posted in a while. I thought I would stir the pot a little. And U all were ganging up on poor Slozo and he had no help at all.
Beans your are right, the TV rights was just an off the cuff thing with no relevance at all, but worth the shot.
The stars leaving Oil country was a reference to Pronger not wanting to play there and Heatley outright refusing to go there. Again not relevant to my comparison of Leafs/Oil but I had to take some shots.
Truth is I am almost as much an Oil fan as I am a Leaf fan. I said almost. There are some people on here who refuse to see some others point of view and I was just trying to make a point of that.
Leafs statistically are still better then the Oil though.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 16:14:00
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You are exactly right, statistically today the Leafs are better than the Oilers. However, this thread is a discussion of the Leafs plan, not a comparison of the two teams. If you would like to compare the Oilers it would be to contrast the plans. One is very draft driven and the other is not. Which is better?? Only time will tell.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 01/23/2011 12:16:20 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 17:41:02
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quote:
Nonesense? Horrified? Why is wrong to compare the Leafs and Oil as they are today? What makes it nonesense? Truth is, in the NHL standings, the Leafs are ahead of the Oilers.
porkchop, this is precisely the forest that you are missing. Yay, TOR has more points than EDM, has players scoring more than EDM players. You are comparing stats for 2 teams that are both lousy - who cares? Are you drawing the conclusion that because TOR is doing better today that their rebuilding process is going better, or is more successful?
quote:
A comparsion of todays on ice product is a direct comparison of the improvement each club has made to date
When you are rebuilding your team from the bottom, it takes a long time to see success. Improvements made in year 1 mean very little. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Nonesense? Horrified? Why is wrong to compare the Leafs and Oil as they are today? What makes it nonesense? Truth is, in the NHL standings, the Leafs are ahead of the Oilers.
porkchop, this is precisely the forest that you are missing. Yay, TOR has more points than EDM, has players scoring more than EDM players. You are comparing stats for 2 teams that are both lousy - who cares? Are you drawing the conclusion that because TOR is doing better today that their rebuilding process is going better, or is more successful?
quote:
A comparsion of todays on ice product is a direct comparison of the improvement each club has made to date
When you are rebuilding your team from the bottom, it takes a long time to see success. Improvements made in year 1 mean very little.
Seriously Nuxfan, I already admitted a couple of post back that I was just trying to stir the pot and get something going because I was bored today.
Do you all remember how Hanley6 would post some wacko stuff and start everyone in an uproar. Thats all i was going for.
I think most people on here would remember me as being a relatively sane leafs fan that looked quite objectively at my favourite team.
By the way Leafs tried plan H tonight, failed. Quite disappointing and fustrating after executing well against a solid Ducks squad |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:25:46
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alright porkchop, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you were just stirring the pot. I've only been posting here a year or so, so I don't really know your history.
and consider your attempt successful |
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bananas
Top Prospect
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 08:02:31
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I think you have to give Burke a little more credit for anaheim than he seems to be getting here. He did trade Federov to the blue jackets to give himself a bunch of cap space, and I believe he got Beauchemin in that deal, who used to be good when he wasn't making boat loads of money. While the Niedermeyer and Pronger moves were somewhat handed to him, he still got them done.
You do not have to give him any credit for what he's done with the leafs. He seemed to believe his own hype and thought any move he made would work out well for. Unfortuneatley, every move he has made has been crap. He should have known he had a bad team when he took over and should have kept his draft picks. Everyone without a 416 area code knew they were bad.
Tthe thing that really annoys me about leaf fans is how you just accept that these are great moves. Your enablers of Burkes rampage. Your always defending the crap moves that the leafs make and over estimating the talent of your current team and prospects. I saw a post before that listed Blacker, McKegg, Kadri, Aulie and a few other future 3rd liners and 4th defenceman as blue chip prospects. Why are you calling them blue chips? Only Kadri was a high pick. Are you kidding me? A team that is about to finish in the bottom 5 of the league, has no first round pick and those are your blue chip prospects. Kadri maybe but he seems to have caught the blue and whie disease early. This is annoying and this is why we haters revel in the leafs current and sure to continue failure. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 10:04:37
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I noticed in an earlier post (i forget from which poster) that said Teemu Selanne was already in Anaheim when Burke arrived.
Is this right? I thought Burke was the Ducks GM when Selanne was brought back...maybe i'm wrong though. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 12:19:23
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Yes, Selanne was in Anaheim when Burke got there.
The Fedorov deal was a great move, no doubt. Burke brought some pieces of the puzzle that helped them win (Moen, Pahlsson, etc) but I still contend that the bulk of the team was built by Murray.
Much like the old A+B=C, if Burke is responsible for the Canucks core and the GM's since just added a little bit to push them over the top, isn't the same true about Anaheim being built by Murray?? You can not say one thing regarding one team and the exact opposite regarding another team in the same situation. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 12:56:05
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bananas, i may have listed some of these players as blue - chip prospects earlier.
Jessie Blacker and Brad Ross were invited to team Canada`s WJ tryout camp. Both were late cuts but were good enough to be invited. Some hockey insiders were very surprised that Greg Mckegg ( 45 games this season, OHL..31 goals - 61 pts ) wasn`t invited.
Blacker is a point per game defenseman with good size......Ross is ( a point per game player ) described as a Steve Downie clone with scoring touch, some insiders say he is one of the hardest players in the CHL to play againist......whats not blue chip about these guys.
You haven`t got to be drafted in the 1st round to be blue - chip my friend....look up P.Datsyuk and H.Zetterburg
Sure if you are drafted in the 1st round the odds are with you but....As for SO -CALLED first round BLUE CHIP prospects, lets look at some of these 1st round can`t miss kids.
I picked at random the 2000 nhl entry draft...let us examine how many 1st round blue - chip prospects came along and developed.
4th...colu...Rostislov Klesla
7th...bos...Lars Jonsson
8th...tb...Nikita Alexeev
9th...cal...Brent Krahn
10th..chi...Mikhail Yakvbov
11th..chi... Pavel Vorobiev
12th,,ana...Alexei Smirnov
13th..mtl...Ron Hainsey
14th..col..Vaclav Nedorast
15th..buf..Artem Kryukov
16th..Marcel Hossa
17th..Alexei Mikhnov
19th..Krys Kolanos.....thats enough i`m sick of typing
5 out of the top 19 made NHL careers, the rest were a total waste of drafting, BUT WAIT...they were all ranked by NHL central scouting...what happened ?? this is the 1st round ?? the draft ( other than a Crosby, Ovie, Taveres, Hall ) is a crap shoot !!!
Neither you or anyone else has the ability to tell another person what thier perspective of who a blue - chip prospect is....NHL central scouting certainly can`t..
This list kinda puts a diffrent spin on the kessel trade doesn`t it...If TO didn`t finish in the bottom 5 in the league this trade would have never been talked about. TO would have won this trade hands down, BUT they finished 29th... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2011 : 13:05:32
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quote:
Much like the old A+B=C, if Burke is responsible for the Canucks core and the GM's since just added a little bit to push them over the top, isn't the same true about Anaheim being built by Murray?? You can not say one thing regarding one team and the exact opposite regarding another team in the same situation.
At the time ANA won their cup, I believe that there was widespread acknowledgment that Murray was responsible for that cup - Burke was just along for the ride. He made a few good periphery deals, but if anyone thinks that ANA won that cup without Getzlaf/Perry/Selanne/Giggy (and Pronger and Niedermayer) they are out to lunch. Burke inherited a very solid core that had been drafted before him.
The same way that if the Canucks win the cup in the next couple of years, it will be significantly on the backs of the Sedin's, Kesler, Edler, Bieksa, all Burke picks. Gillis will be the GM that lifts the cup and gets the credit as a cup winning GM, but we all know who made those crucial draft picks 10 years before. |
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LEAFS. Whats the plan in toronto.. 
