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T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2011 : 03:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
A very good article from Canoe today, illustrating how hard and how long it takes to build a contender - and perhaps giving insight into what the plan *should* be in TOR. Its interesting in that the current 2 heads in TOR (Burke and Nonis) are the ones that we largely consider responsible for building the bulk of the team that we have in VAN today.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2011/01/17/16924986.html
Can TOR wait 10 years to be a serious contender? I don't think they can.
Why not, we've already gone 44 years. really what's another decade.
As for the Leafs Prospects, I have my eye on Keith Aulie. He grew up with and played junior hockey with Luke Shenn. If these two play a similar style and Aulie develops as quick as Schenn, we could have a more stable defence than anyone expects.
Apparently, Burke was going to scrap the deal that sent half of the Leafs to Calgary for Phaneuf and Sjostrum if he didn't get Aulie.
Also, I've mentioned in previous posts that the Leafs have an atrocious record of first round draft picks. Will it actually benefit us if we get one??
Beans, I respect your unbiased look at our trade-able "talent"(for a lack of a better word) |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 04:47:39
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Detroit traded away their first round draft picks in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006. The only important player the Red Wings have right now that was a first round draft pick was Kronwall . . . picked 29th overall.
Article in the Toronto Sun that makes the point that building a winner is not such a simple formula . . .
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/steve_simmons/2011/01/11/16852441.html
One must temper the Detroit Red Wings philosophy though with the knowledge that everyone now understands the importance of scouting European and Russian leagues now, and they don't have the jump on these kids that brought them Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom. I think the amazing talent-mining that allowed them to pick superstars in such late rounds is not going to happen again . . . all other teams are just too aware of it now.
However, one cannot ignore the overall indifference that organisation has had with top first round draft picks . . . and it does show that there is a different way. In some ways, one can argue that bottoming out, then rising to the top, is even more of a crapshoot, unless you get MVP candidates as your #1 draftee . . .
I think that Brian Burke is a very smart hockey individual that has truly studied the Detroit Red Wings way of doing things, and uses them as a template. And like any formula, you can't take the way they did things and do it exactly the same way - it's a different era, euro scouting is better, etc - but you can take the principles of how they operated and why.
I think we have to give this organisation more time, and I can weigh in much more heavily on the job Burke is doing in two years. Bottom line though, I certainly don't think the Leafs have to build through the draft by bottoming out to be successful . . . for every Pittsburgh, there's a Columbus, Islanders and LA Kings.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 04:54:31
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Slozo
During this research did you by chance find out who the 5 first rounders ended up being?
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:24:03
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quote:
Also, I've mentioned in previous posts that the Leafs have an atrocious record of first round draft picks. Will it actually benefit us if we get one??
Actually, so does Vancouver - the Sedin's, Kesler, and Schneider are the only first round draft picks from the last 15 years that are currently in the lineup.
As with most good teams, they drafted well in deeper rounds and developed those assets properly. CHI and PIT are the only teams I can think of with recent success that did it largely on the back of great first round picks.
quote:
I think we have to give this organisation more time, and I can weigh in much more heavily on the job Burke is doing in two years. Bottom line though, I certainly don't think the Leafs have to build through the draft by bottoming out to be successful . . . for every Pittsburgh, there's a Columbus, Islanders and LA Kings.
I don't think you'll see much difference in 2 years time even. I suspect that if/when TOR has success, it will be long after Burke has left the organization for not delivering. Much like Vancouver. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/18/2011 08:26:22 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:34:08
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quote:
However, one cannot ignore the overall indifference that organisation has had with top first round draft picks . . . and it does show that there is a different way. In some ways, one can argue that bottoming out, then rising to the top, is even more of a crapshoot, unless you get MVP candidates as your #1 draftee . . .
I think that the DET model and their indifference towards their own draft picks was more to do with the fantastic team they had already put together, and the lack of a salary cap system at the time.
DET had the best team in hockey at the time (thanks to those 5th-9th round picks from Europe), and spent more money on salaries than any other team in the year before the lockout (77M, 1M more than NYR). Who needs first round draft picks when you are the best team in the NHL and any pieces you need can be obtained by throwing money at any UFA you want?
I don't think that DET from 2000-2005 is the best model for a GM to be following today... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 09:56:24
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It is unreal to think that Detroit has been able to be as good as they have been in the past considering they have had a grand total of 8-1st round draft picks in the past 15 years and their highest pick in that period of time is 19th over all! But TO has not had as many 1st rounders as one might think.
Andlet's not get hung up ont he 2 brilliant picks in Datsuyk and Zetterberg in the 6th and 7th round. Holmstrom was up there at 273rd overall but Lidstrom was a 2nd round pick(53 overall). Virtually every other talent that Detroit has drafted and has been successful in the NHL have been 3rd round or better. Furthermore, they have had 129 draft picks in the past 15 years. Of those, only 16 players have gone on to have play 100 or more career games.
Comparitevly, the Leafs have had 134 picks in the same period of time including 10-1st round picks(only 2 more than Detroit) with 2 of those in the top 10. Their most succesful players(points wise) is an 8th round pick(Kaberle) and they have had 21 players with more than 100 career games(more than Detroit).
It's a difficult comparison to make to say how good a team drafts compared to others but when you look at it, Detroit has 2 amazing picks more than TO does and that is really the difference. The other difference is that off the top 10 most successful players drafted by each team(based on points) Detroit has 6 of those 10 guys on their roster today. Toronto has only Kaberle of their most successful players and there is a good chance he will be gone at the end of next season.
From my perspective, drafting players is important regardless of what round they are taken in. But what is more important is that good draft picks stay with your team. Finally, the draft will not win the Cup tomorrow, but it will ensure you have a chance at winning the Cup for more than a season or two. Great draft picks mean a endless supply of talent coming down the pipe. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:52:30
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I have become, reluctantly, a Leafs' sympathizer since moving out East. One cannot ignore the media barrage out here, and I am usually asleep before Western games are into the first intermission. I usually enjoy the style of play employed by the Buds, quietly hope they may compete one day, and heartily chirp when they lose. That being said, WTF? Watching the Rangers walk all over them tonight. It's boys vs. men. What does this team have to gain by tanking games like this? Seriously. It looks like they have no desire to win.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 18:56:31
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quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO
I have become, reluctantly, a Leafs' sympathizer since moving out East. One cannot ignore the media barrage out here, and I am usually asleep before Western games are into the first intermission. I usually enjoy the style of play employed by the Buds, quietly hope they may compete one day, and heartily chirp when they lose. That being said, WTF? Watching the Rangers walk all over them tonight. It's boys vs. men. What does this team have to gain by tanking games like this? Seriously. It looks like they have no desire to win.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011.
I've read this a couple times already and i'm awaiting the replies from the faithful Leaf fans. I don't see the Leafs all that often even though i'm offered them at least once a week on avg. This is my choice, i choose not to watch them on most nights and that's why i don't know how they've been playing. From highlites i've seen, they are often trailing by a few early goals BUT, seem to fight their way back into it. So, is this just a game they write off and move on, or are they really a team looking to quit? Let's not forget their little streak they went on not too long ago. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 05:21:50
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Oil In Ontario: it's one game, just like the Leafs winning in Atlanta 9-3 was one game, just like Calgary losing last night to Minny 6-0 was one game.
A couple of nights ago Boston beat Carolina 7-0 . . . afterward? Zero comments or posts on this shellacking other than one or two Bruin fans saying their team looks good right now (they do). No comments about Carolina quitting, not having guts, etc.
January 11 . . . Boston beats Ottawa 6-0. No post.
January 7th . . . Anaheim beats Columbus 6-0, no posts - on the same day that Toronto beats Atlanta 9-3. No one posts that Atlanta has given up and is out of the playoff race.
Jan 5th, Pittsburgh beats TB 8-1. No posts on how TB gave up.
Dec 18th, Atlanta beats NJ 7-1. No one hardly flinches to stop and kick sand in the face of the Devils.
All blowouts of 6 goals or more . . . and we are talking now about a Toronto team that some people before the season thought might compete for a playoff spot, but may just well fall short, and it has looked all season like the latter.
Why the heck do people care so much to jump all over a losing team like they love to hate Toronto?
Cripes, it's one game in a season of 82. It'll count as a loss, same as a tough 3-2 loss in regulation where they were robbed on a goal getting called back.
Get over it people.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 06:02:50
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| My curiosity lies with how we are going to get Phaneuf and Komisarek going. These guys count for quite a bit of cap space and they are not performing up to their expected level. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 07:27:54
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T-RAV, well - that's a whole other point, and definitely worth talking about.
Komisarek has been our worst signing ever so far, perhaps even the worst in the last 20 years, considering the money we paid him, and the player we thought we were getting.
When you get a big, hard-hitting young defenceman with little offence but lots of promise in terms of defence, grit and leadership . . . you expect more than this.
Not only did the Leafs overpay . . . Komisarek has become a total bum, in my mind . . . and it boggles my mind why he has continued getting the minutes he gets from Wilson. It's been one of my biggest complaints against Wilson, in fact.
I have no answer for Komi . . . how to get him going. Sign Markov? lol 
As for Phaneuf, he is also a bit of an enigma, but . . . I will give him more time. Can't say he's underperforming per se, as it's right around where he was when he got shipped from Calgary - there's always a reason someone gets moved, obviously. But I hold out a lot more hope for Phaneuf, and at least he isn't making the complete bonehead plays every game that Komisarek does - literally two terrible giveaways a game.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/20/2011 : 08:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by T-RAV
My curiosity lies with how we are going to get Phaneuf and Komisarek going. These guys count for quite a bit of cap space and they are not performing up to their expected level.
These guys are decent players and are not performing to their levels - it's a coaching issue.
In fact - coaching issue is the reason for the entire team not playing well and playing inconsistantly. |
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Guest9836
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Posted - 01/20/2011 : 08:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
T-RAV, well - that's a whole other point, and definitely worth talking about.
Komisarek has been our worst signing ever so far, perhaps even the worst in the last 20 years, considering the money we paid him, and the player we thought we were getting.
When you get a big, hard-hitting young defenceman with little offence but lots of promise in terms of defence, grit and leadership . . . you expect more than this.
Not only did the Leafs overpay . . . Komisarek has become a total bum, in my mind . . . and it boggles my mind why he has continued getting the minutes he gets from Wilson. It's been one of my biggest complaints against Wilson, in fact.
I have no answer for Komi . . . how to get him going. Sign Markov? lol
As for Phaneuf, he is also a bit of an enigma, but . . . I will give him more time. Can't say he's underperforming per se, as it's right around where he was when he got shipped from Calgary - there's always a reason someone gets moved, obviously. But I hold out a lot more hope for Phaneuf, and at least he isn't making the complete bonehead plays every game that Komisarek does - literally two terrible giveaways a game.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Is Komisarek the new McCabe minus the cannon? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 10:06:23
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| I just don't get it. Komisarek was soooo good in Montreal the year before his start in TO. Can coaching be blamed for a fall this far in his performance? I don't think so myself? It's just inexplicable really! |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/20/2011 : 11:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
I just don't get it. Komisarek was soooo good in Montreal the year before his start in TO. Can coaching be blamed for a fall this far in his performance? I don't think so myself? It's just inexplicable really!
montreal was never a tough team - so Komi stood out as the tough guy...
now on leafs team - he's just a "regular" guy when it comes to toughness
Also, Wilson's style of coaching is based on "your performance and contributions are based on your salary" - there's no working with the player, no teaching, no real coaching.
That's why he's where he is today - he can't coach or motivate his team - whether they are youngsters or veterans.... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 13:53:45
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| Say what you will, but Komisarek wasn't just a "tough guy" in Montreal a few years back. He was solid defensively as well. If it was all about toughness, even Burke wouldn't have thrown the dollars at him that he got! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 14:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Say what you will, but Komisarek wasn't just a "tough guy" in Montreal a few years back. He was solid defensively as well. If it was all about toughness, even Burke wouldn't have thrown the dollars at him that he got!
A lot of people say it was Markov makeing him look good i disagree he was one hell of a fierce competitor, maybe Higgens and him took some magic pill that takes all your hockey sense away, i mean they were best friends and well they both have had similar drops in talent!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 14:27:58
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I'm pretty sure every big free agent signing comes as a bit of a let-down to the casual but passionate fan. You've only ever seen the player when he makes the highlight reels or the odd time he faces your team; once on your favorite team you get to see the player every night, be it a good night, a bad one, or simply indifferent.
So it was wrong of us Leaf fans to expect highlight reel quality play every single night out of Phaneuf and Komisarek (despite the fact that their salaries put them in an elite bracket) but what we've seen so has been beyond disapointing.
They both make costly mistakes on a regular basis, turn the puck over as if it carries the plague, and have drawn stupid penalties without doing much to contribute to the overall 'toughness' of the team. Phaneuf has at least taken a lot of shots, but 98% of them have missed, often going way wide or over the net. Komisarek hasn't even done that. Most of his shots seem to hit legs or skates before even getting close to the net. I think they each have a single goal thus far. Not exactly good value for $11 million, is it?
Phaneuf wouldn't have been traded if he were still as good as he was when he earned that contract in Calgary, so his weak play isn't a *huge* shock (though naming him captain was foolish. How many other teams have captains on pace for a 15 point season?) Komisarek, I just don't get. Even accounting for the fact that I only saw him when Toronto played Montreal, when he made the highlight reels, or during the playoffs when I'd watch every game I could regardless of who played, I think I'm allowed to say that Komisarek should be playing WAY better. He's not just failing to produce, he's actually a liability when he's on the ice.
People rant and rave about the Kessel deal, but Komisarek is easily Burke's worst move so far. How one player can play well enough to earn (quite legitimately, from what I saw of the guy in Montreal) such a big contract and then completely screw up afterwards is something I cannot explain. Maybe Montreal still secretly pays him a million a year on the side?
Oh well, at least he's not Kovalchuk.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 14:50:53
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So refreshing in the objective Leaf Fan. Thanks RC!! So much better to see a person able to view reality.
Now, I have not had the chance to take a look yet, but this gibberish from some Leaf fans about get over the 7-0 spanking the Leafs took last night is awesome. I will be looking through this seasons to see what teams have been blown out by the most and how often. When I have a chance to do that, I am all but certain that the mightly Leafs are at or near the top of the list of teams that have been blown out the most this season.
But the Leafs are young and rebuilding and the plan is right on track. Hence the improvements in the standings and the on ice play.  |
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Guest4271
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Posted - 01/20/2011 : 15:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Now, I have not had the chance to take a look yet, but this gibberish from some Leaf fans about get over the 7-0 spanking the Leafs took last night is awesome. I will be looking through this seasons to see what teams have been blown out by the most and how often. When I have a chance to do that, I am all but certain that the mightly Leafs are at or near the top of the list of teams that have been blown out the most this season.
That would be an interesting stat to look at Beans, but I think what might be more telling is the game or games that follow a blowout, as I think it is more improtant how a team responds.
Every team tanks a game every year or so, but the good ones respond and respond quickly. Take the Canucks losing by a touchdown to Chicago earlier in the year. They took off on something like a 17 -3 run shortly after, using that game as a catalyst for improved play and effort.
So I think the real concern for Leaf fans should be how they look in the next few games, and how their leaders respond on and off the ice. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 15:31:29
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Careful Beans my friend!
I took a quick perusal of 2 teams that have lost by 5 or more goals this year to date, and as near as I can tell, Toronto only lost like that twice;
Thu Dec 2, 2010 EDMONTON @ TORONTO 7:00 PM ET 7:00 PM ET FINAL: EDM (5) - TOR (0)
Wed Jan 19, 2011 TORONTO @ NY RANGERS 7:00 PM ET 7:00 PM ET FINAL: TOR (0) - NYR (7)
Unfortunately for our mighty Oilers;
Sat Oct 23, 2010 SAN JOSE @ EDMONTON 10:00 PM ET 8:00 PM MT FINAL: SJS (6) - EDM (1)
Tue Nov 9, 2010 EDMONTON @ CAROLINA 7:00 PM ET 7:00 PM ET FINAL: EDM (1) - CAR (7)
Sun Nov 14, 2010 EDMONTON @ NY RANGERS 12:30 PM ET 12:30 PM ET FINAL: EDM (2) - NYR (8)
Wed Nov 17, 2010 CHICAGO @ EDMONTON 9:30 PM ET 7:30 PM MT FINAL: CHI (5) - EDM (0)
Tue Nov 23, 2010 EDMONTON @ PHOENIX 9:00 PM ET 7:00 PM MST FINAL: EDM (0) - PHX (5)
Fri Jan 7, 2011 EDMONTON @ VANCOUVER 10:00 PM ET 7:00 PM PT FINAL: EDM (1) - VAN (6)
I'll help you get the windex, you put away the rocks...
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 18:56:33
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Your dead wrong Beans...the leafs have actually NOT been blown out hardly at all this season ( maybe 2 - 3 times ). 4 - 0 score maybe when they couldn`t score at all, at one point this season...but if its 4 - 3 ??
Phaneuf gave a bone crushing hit to some-one on the Ducks tonight ( never caught his name ), wish he would do this more often, like he did in Calgary....lead by example like he is getting paid to do.
Leafs played a great game tonight.....can`t figure out these guys, i don`t think anyone can. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 19:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Your dead wrong Beans...the leafs have actually NOT been blown out hardly at all this season ( maybe 2 - 3 times ). 4 - 0 score maybe when they couldn`t score at all, at one point this season...but if its 4 - 3 ??
Really? Just a couple times? You figure that out all by yourself? I sure hope you didn't spend a lot of time looking those numbers up. You know, the one's Fat Elvis posted over 3 hours ago? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 19:27:18
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How does that humble pie taste, Beans? A bit bitter?
Thanks for that quick research, Fat Elvis . . . and you made me laugh my ass off with that last line, priceless. You are and always will be the King! 
Even funnier, Beans, is you taking potshots at me saying that the Leafs can just get over the blowout loss and move on . . . at least I think you were referring to me (chance to back out now) . . . and yet, I said exactly the same thing basically as RC, who gets called realistic.
Anyways, plan stays the same for the Leafs - keep chugging along, evaluate the young guys, and for goodness sakes . . . let's bench Komisarek, and bring up Reimer!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 19:48:45
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Alex i didn`t need another post to know this actually. I subscribe to Bell Center Ice and watch ALL and i do mean all leaf games.
Yes, of course, i agree, i am a sucker for punishment
My wife tells me i am crazy. If you only knew how many nights she jumps up from the chesterfeild heading to bed saying `` how can you watch that `` ??...they are so stupid...
What can i say ?...i am a loyal leaf fan, i bleed blue !! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 19:54:27
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Yes Slozo...lol...lets have a pick on ( Beans - Edmonton night ). 3 wins in their last 17 games...wicked, go for gold.
Just how many games is that under .500 in their last 17 ?? wait till i find the calculator  |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 21:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So refreshing in the objective Leaf Fan. Thanks RC!! So much better to see a person able to view reality.
Now, I have not had the chance to take a look yet, but this gibberish from some Leaf fans about get over the 7-0 spanking the Leafs took last night is awesome. I will be looking through this seasons to see what teams have been blown out by the most and how often. When I have a chance to do that, I am all but certain that the mightly Leafs are at or near the top of the list of teams that have been blown out the most this season.
But the Leafs are young and rebuilding and the plan is right on track. Hence the improvements in the standings and the on ice play.
Glad to be of service. That said, I will contest your last statement. (Everybody else already has you on the blowouts, so I steer clear of that! )
No meaningful improvement in standings? Check. On the ice, however, as a guy who watches at least half and probably closer to two thirds of the games every season, I'd say there is. Yeah, the blowouts stand out like a sore thumb (I'd have guessed there were more this season, to be honest) but there have also been a large number of very close losses.
More importantly, in terms of the future, nights when the team shows up and clicks are some of the best hockey I've seen from the Leafs since the lockout. Don't get me wrong, a lot of nights they don't click, and we saw against NYR that sometimes they don't even seem to be in the building... But all the up and down tells me a couple things: first that they need a new coach, and second that they have at least a bit of potential.
The teams of a few years ago did not have that. They used to blow leads on a regular basis, and very few of their wins were convincing, regardless of the final score. They were slower, they were older, and they looked... I guess the right word would be weary. Those old teams were at their limit and they sucked. The current team still sucks, but at least you can watch them and see some bright spots. The defense, despite being 3rd most expensive in the league, is still a disaster but I don't think its anything a new coach couldn't fix, forwards are starting to come together, and there are some good goaltenders in the pipeline. This isn't a good team yet, but for the first time since the lockout I feel like there is a core that will only get better with time.
Stanley Cup better? Not a chance. Not yet, not without some major additions and coach better suited to developing young players. If the goal were to build a 7th or 8th place team in a year or two, then sure, I'd call this rebuild a success so far. That wasn't the stated goal, so in that sense it's a failure, but for once things are looking up, if not as high as us fans (both rational and deluded) would like. Not having Seguin and another very high pick is going to hurt in the long run, but that doesn't mean the rebuild effort is doomed. They don't have the superstar prospects that allow me to think of the Leafs in terms of Pittsburg or Chicago rising out of the basement to win a cup or two in the next few years, but I am willing to wager that they will be a respectable playoff team faster than you think.
In fact, I'm willing to bet on it. Name your terms.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 07:02:41
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As I said, I have not done the research yet. However, FER does prove a point this far.
Secondly, Slozo, if you choose to re-read my post, my comment was not about the Leafs getting over the loss, it was about your comment about non-Leaf fans getting over the spanking the Leafs took. Maybe it was taken out of contexts and it was, without question, and pot shot at you.
Thirdly, what exact does the Oilers performance over the past 17 games have anything to do with the Leafs plans???
No, I am off to research the season to prove myself right!! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 07:59:20
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| You can`t wiggle you way out of that post Beans, lets face it, you set yourself up for some Olier bashing and didn`t even know, as the stats show. Have fun researching... |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 08:13:52
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By the way Beans ... the leafs have been in rebuild mode under Burke now for about 2 years i guess...YOU say you don`t see any improvement, ( well thats debateable ) in the standings not much i guess....
Let me ask you as an Oilers fan...since their season is a TOTAL disaster....How many years have the Oilers been rebuilding now ??....when did it start ??...when they traded Pronger ?? how long ago was that ??
Since, i guess, the Oilers have been rebuilding now for about 4 - 5 years and looking at both teams seasons, well....i gues Toronto`s rebuild is really light years faster than the Oilers.
I think i brought this up before....don`t forget that if Buffalo didn`t match the Oilers offer sheet for Vanek....the Oilers would not have had those valuable draft picks where they picked up those great young players....
Can you imagine the Oilers, as lousy as they are this season, without those star players and just Vanek to build around ??....scary.....they wouldn`t recover for a decade !! |
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 08:25:25
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| Continue your bashing I am still much happier to be an Oiler fan! You will still be having this same problem for many years. I see a future and can admit our team is not good for now. Check out love to hear the boos on youtube says it all |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 10:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
By the way Beans ... the leafs have been in rebuild mode under Burke now for about 2 years i guess...YOU say you don`t see any improvement, ( well thats debateable ) in the standings not much i guess....
Let me ask you as an Oilers fan...since their season is a TOTAL disaster....How many years have the Oilers been rebuilding now ??....when did it start ??...when they traded Pronger ?? how long ago was that ??
Since, i guess, the Oilers have been rebuilding now for about 4 - 5 years and looking at both teams seasons, well....i gues Toronto`s rebuild is really light years faster than the Oilers.
I think i brought this up before....don`t forget that if Buffalo didn`t match the Oilers offer sheet for Vanek....the Oilers would not have had those valuable draft picks where they picked up those great young players....
Can you imagine the Oilers, as lousy as they are this season, without those star players and just Vanek to build around ??....scary.....they wouldn`t recover for a decade !!
Actually Duke, if I may wade in here since I left my Oiler compadre hanging there a bit....
I would think the Oilers have been in rebuild mode for approximately the same amount of time as the Leafs. In the 07-08 season the Oilers were in the playoff run until the final games, finishing 9th in the West., and only a mediocre season in between, separating that and their STANLEY CUP FINAL appearance. Lets' use 08-09 as the season end they really began to look at rebuilding.
You, with complete honesty and a straight face are actually saying that in the same approximate time frame, that the Leafs rebuild is on par. or even ahead, of the Oiler's?, looking at their recent seasons?
Here are the differences I see, as no more than an ardent fan of the game keep in mind.
The Oilers management team, stated, they are going to rebuild, period. No time frame, no empty promises, no having their captain espouse their great competitiveness, just that they were rebuilding, and if the fans would be patient, it is a process. This is huge in taking the pressure of the players and allowing development to happen rather unreal expectation.(I looked in the dictionary), the synonym for 'unreal expectation' actually is 'a Leaf fan', what a coincedence!)
Nod to the Oilers.
They have drafted very well, which is almost impossible to argue, as their young talent starts to show their value. So far, the Leafs have shown Kadri....in the AHL.
Nod to the Oilers.
Any free agents they have been able to acquire(Whitney, Foster, Khabibulin have been definite improvements.
No descriptor, just names....Komisarek, MIke Brown....
Nod to the Oilers.
The Oilers had a horrible record last year, finishing dead last, the Leafs blew them away, by finishing way ahead, no wait, to use your phrase, 'light years' ahead......second last.
They have a less than stellar record this year, not showing much promise of playoffs, the Leafs, on the other hand in this much improved season.......also not showing much promise of making the playoffs.
The best argument you support is that IF they had signed Vanek and IF they had not had all these young draftees would they still be the same team. Really?
IF your Aunt Martha urinated standing up, she would be Uncle Marty now wouldn't she?....moot point those IF's.
Still think there's some Oiler bashing that matters?
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 11:14:46
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Well Fat Elvis,
You have seriously cherry-picked to back up your argument here. Let me do the same to you in kind, shall we?
Management
The Leafs got the very best manager available, a guy who has been a winner, and a well respected hockey man in Burke. He came in with a plan, stated it openly, and has tried to be very direct with the fans on how he will build a winner.
The Oil got an up and coming guy who used to be an assistant to the GM of Vancouver to serve for the first time as GM in Edmonton. He gave no plan, only promising an undefined and vague statement of a long re-building process. Yawn! Oh, and he brought in cheerleaders because the product was going to be so bad on the ice, the fans needed something else to look at.
Nod to the Leafs.
Edmonton hasn't had to draft well, only smart, as they have had a few high picks. We'll see how Hall, Eberle and Paajarvi pan out, but looks somewhat promising.
The Leafs have Schenn, Sjostrom, Aulie who could be amazing, Kadri coming back up soon, and Reimer now as well bucking for a starting goalie job. Schenn has already shown himself to be quite solid, and Reimer is suddenly very much on the radar as a potential goalie of the future. Aulie could be the next Pronger, except nicer.
saw-off
Most free agents the Oilers have acquired have been unmitigated disasters . . . the biggest was their expensive old goalie, Khabibulin, who was injured most of the first year, and now sports an incredible .892 save % and looks way over the hill. Whitney, acquired at the trade deadline last year, starts to have a fantastic season, but gets injured and is out for the season. Foster has been disappointing, and Jim Vandermeer was another fine pick-up - NOT! - he's also injured now.
Leafers picked up Kessel for unproven draft picks (money in the bak 30 goals every year with loads of upside), Mac Arthur for very cheap and he's having a career season and leads the team in points, picked up Versteeg from the Hawks and he's coming along nicely now after a slow start, and picked up Bozak for nothing. Oh, and we picked up this Phaneuf guy too. AND, the Leafs still have loads of cap room to boot for the near future.
Big nod to the Leafs.
Both teams have been bottom dwellers last year, and for most of the season this year so far, but the Leafs are 6-3-1 in their last ten and on the upswing, the Oil are at the bottom, have gone 2-8 their last ten, and lead the league in blow-outs by a country mile.
Nod to the Leafs.
Still think you want to try your hand bashing the Leafs?!?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 12:37:46
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Talk about cherry-picking arguments.
Brian Burke is a well respect and knowledge hockey guy in Toronto. Many other people see a guy who 1/2 built a team in Van who couldn't make them win so he left for a pre-built team in Anahiem(built by Brian Murray) for his only Cup and to my knowledge on win in hockey period. He is not a well respected and knowledge guy away from the team he is currently GM for. Many see him as an arrogant, ignorant moron.
Secondly, your incredibly shortsighted and ill-informed view of the Oilers draft picks failed to include Linus Omark, Riley Nash, Alex Plante, Anton Lander, Camron Abney, Oliver Roy, Tyler Pitlick, Curtis Hamilton. Let's not forget the Oilers get to keep their 1st round draft pick this year.
The comments about Kessel for 2 unproven draft picks is still awesome every time I hear it. Ultimately, Kessel is Dustin Penner with speed and nothing more. You can talk until you are blue in the face about Kessel and he is nothing more than a potential 30ish goal, 60ish point one dimensional forward. And Khabibulin is as effective any Leaf goalie today. Difference is he is a manageable $4 million cap hit. For someone who admittedly doesn't watch the Oilers and doesn't care, I fail to see how anyone should put any stock into the comments you make about any Oiler player. Showing his age?? What a joke. Khabibulin has faced an average of 31 shots a game and has that .892 save % while Giguere faces 25 shots a game with a marginally better save % at .900 and Gustovsson has virtually the same save % facing 4 fewer shots/game.
Nod to the Leafs in the standings based on the last 10 games. Sure. How about the projection that the Leafs will have the same number of point as they did last year and so will the Oilers??
The biggest difference between the teams (as FER stated) is that the Oilers made no illusion of what they are. They expected to be a more competitive team but not compete for the playoffs this season. TO did. They openly expected to make the playoffs this season. There is a massive difference between the teams in that regard. Edmonton knows exactly what they are and where their expectations are. TO has no clue what they are and have delusional expectations. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 12:58:21
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Cheerleaders?
Are you sure you don't mean Strawleaders???
I guess we both wear blue-tinted goggles, just slightly different shades.
You see a well pedigree'd GM, which I won't argue, and I simply implied that he made hollow promises, I never questioned his resume, just his statements. Tambellini may not have the profile of Burke, but at least he know when not to say the 'P' word.
Free agents and drafting are tenuous at best, but Edmonton clearly has an advantage in their draftees, Hall and Eberle alone are more than just 'somewhat promising', geez, man!, they're playing and contributing, not developing with the moniker of 'could be amazing', as yet unproven.
As far as the last 10 games win/loss record? Until one makes the playoffs and the other doesn't, their tee-off times are similar enough that it doesn't matter.
Anyways. I was the one who gave up my Oilers as the blow out leaders, It's a Leaf fan taking it and making..... hay ......with it. |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 01/21/2011 : 13:37:40
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| Aulie the next pronger? hahahaha toronto didnt even draft him and im pretty sure pronger didnt spend most his time in the Ahl, Lets not forget that toronto moved up to pick schenn at #5 giving up the #7 pick (colin wilson...dont you guys need centres?) a 3rd the same year and 2nd in 09, there were still players like Carlson, Karlsson, Myers available, while schenn had a decent rookie season he certainly hasnt shown as much promise recently, and finally with Kadri its way to early to tell same thing with Reimer (4 or 5 decent games, suprised he isnt labelled as the next Brodeur or Roy), pretty sure id give the Oilers the nod in the prospect department. |
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Mario 66
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
360 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 13:37:50
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Nod to Beans and FER = Advantage Oiler Nation.
I could reitterate many of the points made but leaf fans have their mind set on the matter. Leaf fans claim that the talk is always about the leafs and that they are always over scrutinized or hated on while other failing teams are kind of pushed aside due to their insignificance. Point granted but I can ensure you that none of the failing teams fan base blow the amount of hot air about the state or talent of their team that leafs do either. Living in Toronto i hear fans and an organization indicating that there are some goalies in the minors that can become potential starters, one or two more top 6 forwards and we can or will be real close to competing. The one thing i never hear about the leafs is how great their forward prospects look y? Because they don't have many assets down their to build their team around. Damiggio looks promising, Aulie (D i know) i love his upside & size, Kadri the verdict is out on. The rest of your farm system includes guys like Mike Zigomanis, Rosehill, Hanson, Brunstrom guys who have already had oppurtunities and proven they aren't nhl calibre guys.
The oilers possess more potential talent in the guys who are still in Jr like Lander, Hamilton, Roy (maybe), Pitlick plus a top 3 talent TBD in June then the leafs currently have in their entire farm system. I get, appreciate & respect the passion shown by leaf fans but to compare your teams current situation to the oilers should leave you in a state of depression. Compare all you want on paper but over time on the ice it will end up turning into a Penguins/Chicago vs Florida situation.
Please stop defending the Phil Kessel trade you gave up 2 first round draft picks and a second round pick for a guy that proved throughout jr and early on that he was only a one way player with no desire to change. I mean did leaf fans last yr really see potential in Toskala and a bunch of no name forwards to truthfully believe that they would be better then a bottom 10 team the next 2 yrs with his acquisition? That a guy who played with a healthy Mark Savard and could not get 80 points was worth more then lets be humble the 10th pick in last yrs (since someone will argue that the leafs didn't think they would finish second last) and this yrs draft? Did leaf nation see something that rest of us knew was futile or did they just buy into the drunken state of Brian Burke and believe that what the leafs had to offer would with the inclusion of Kessel would make a substantial difference?
Five yrs from now and argue it if you like leaf fans will curse Burke for giving up the talent that this deal cost them. Sure you can claim that no one knew it would be the 2nd pick last yr and 4th - 10th this yr but did it really take a crystal ball to figure out that those where not likely outcomes?
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:01:15
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quote:
Many other people see a guy who 1/2 built a team in Van who couldn't make them win so he left for a pre-built team in Anahiem
Actually Beans, Burke was fired from the Canucks (contract not renewed), rather unceremoniously as well. At the time, there was a great deal of perception that the firing was personal, and it was hugely unpopular when it happened. He might still be the GM today otherwise.
But enough about the Canucks...
As an impartial fan of the Canucks that dislikes equally the Leafs and Oilers, if I had to pick one of the teams to replace my Canucks, I'd take the Oilers and Oiler farm system, rather than the Leafs and Leaf farm system. For reasons already stated. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 14:48:28
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Many other people see a guy who 1/2 built a team in Van who couldn't make them win so he left for a pre-built team in Anahiem
Actually Beans, Burke was fired from the Canucks (contract not renewed), rather unceremoniously as well. At the time, there was a great deal of perception that the firing was personal, and it was hugely unpopular when it happened. He might still be the GM today otherwise.
But enough about the Canucks...
As an impartial fan of the Canucks that dislikes equally the Leafs and Oilers, if I had to pick one of the teams to replace my Canucks, I'd take the Oilers and Oiler farm system, rather than the Leafs and Leaf farm system. For reasons already stated.
So here is an interesting question. Using what you know today in Burke's activities since his departure from Vancouver, is the team better today or worse than if Burke was still the GM??? Do you think Burke would have brought this team to where it is today??? |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 01/21/2011 : 15:22:50
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| I think the canucks are better off with Gillis, i like having a GM that stays away from all the media attention and focuses on making his club better. Being a Canadian market id rather have the attention focused on the team on the ice not the guys behind the bench and upstairs in the pressbox. |
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LEAFS. Whats the plan in toronto.. 
