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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2007 : 11:54:40
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You hear a lot of people use the word "dominant" to describe a player. It seems though that they can be describing totally different types of players. How do you define dominance and who would you use for the best example of your definition?
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 12:16:07
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I use that word when i mean the players are playing hard on each end of the ice and playing fair and well and good attitude in every game he plays and plays fair
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~ |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 14:13:55
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A Dominating Player to me is someone who can change the face of a game by "turning it up a notch." That could be defensively, offensively, or goaltending.
For example, Patrick Roy was a dominating player. He could be in a tough game and turn up his play. There were times where there was no way a puck was getting past him. That's dominating.
Or guys like Scott Stevens. If the Devils were up a goal and the other team was coming on strong, Stevens would turn it up and the other team couldn't do a thing. He would take the opposing team’s best player out of the game, or shut down a line by himself.
Or guys like Lemiuex (I could have said Gretzky but I don't want too many people to cry). Down 2 goals with 5 minutes left, he would go into a different place and carry his team on his back. They would win that game only because of Lemiuex.
And to be a dominant player, that guy has to be able to do that often enough for people to see. There is a huge difference between a "Dominating Performance" and a "Dominating Player". That later are few and far between.
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 14:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
A Dominating Player to me is someone who can change the face of a game by "turning it up a notch." That could be defensively, offensively, or goaltending.
For example, Patrick Roy was a dominating player. He could be in a tough game and turn up his play. There were times where there was no way a puck was getting past him. That's dominating.
Gotta disagree here. Roy was a very very good goalie, but he was always overrated. The only time in his career that he played for a weak team, he got frustrated and demanded a trade. Good goalie, but not dominant.
Or guys like Scott Stevens. If the Devils were up a goal and the other team was coming on strong, Stevens would turn it up and the other team couldn't do a thing. He would take the opposing team’s best player out of the game, or shut down a line by himself.
Completely agree. :) Stevens could intimidate others with his shot, his thunderous bodychecks, his rocket launching hip checks, or just stare you down. Great overall player, especially in his prime. He was a solid player for a long time, but I was suprised how short his peak was.
Or guys like Lemiuex (I could have said Gretzky but I don't want too many people to cry). Down 2 goals with 5 minutes left, he would go into a different place and carry his team on his back. They would win that game only because of Lemiuex.
Of course you can mentiion Gretz.. :) Gretzky and Lemieux and ?Orr were the 3 most dominant players ever. And yes, there were others close too...
And to be a dominant player, that guy has to be able to do that often enough for people to see. There is a huge difference between a "Dominating Performance" and a "Dominating Player". That later are few and far between.
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 15:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
A Dominating Player to me is someone who can change the face of a game by "turning it up a notch." That could be defensively, offensively, or goaltending.
For example, Patrick Roy was a dominating player. He could be in a tough game and turn up his play. There were times where there was no way a puck was getting past him. That's dominating.
[b]Gotta disagree here. Roy was a very very good goalie, but he was always overrated. The only time in his career that he played for a weak team, he got frustrated and demanded a trade. Good goalie, but not dominant.Or guys like Scott Stevens. If the Devils were up a goal and the other team was coming on strong, Stevens would turn it up and the other team couldn't do a thing. He would take the opposing team’s best player out of the game, or shut down a line by himself.
Completely agree. :) Stevens could intimidate others with his shot, his thunderous bodychecks, his rocket launching hip checks, or just stare you down. Great overall player, especially in his prime. He was a solid player for a long time, but I was suprised how short his peak was.
Or guys like Lemiuex (I could have said Gretzky but I don't want too many people to cry). Down 2 goals with 5 minutes left, he would go into a different place and carry his team on his back. They would win that game only because of Lemiuex.
Of course you can mentiion Gretz.. :) Gretzky and Lemieux and ?Orr were the 3 most dominant players ever. And yes, there were others close too...
And to be a dominant player, that guy has to be able to do that often enough for people to see. There is a huge difference between a "Dominating Performance" and a "Dominating Player". That later are few and far between.
Now I gotta disagree with you there lol :P. Roy was one of the best, if not the[/b] best goalie in NHL history. he wasn't overrated, he was hyped because of how good he was.
Awards
NHL All-Rookie Team - 1986
Played in 11 NHL All-Star Games - 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003
NHL Second All-Star 1985,1988, 1991
NHL First All-Star Team - 1989, 1990, 1992, 2002
Conn Smythe Trophy - 1986, 1993, 2001
William M. Jennings Trophy - 1987*, 1988*, 1989*, 1992, 2002
Vezina Trophy - 1989, 1990, 1992
In 1998, he was ranked number 35 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players.
The Colorado Sports Hall Of Fame 2004
Hockey Hall of Fame inductee 2006
Records
Most NHL games played by a goaltender (1029)
Most NHL wins (551)
Most NHL playoff games played by a goaltender (247)
Most NHL playoff wins by a goaltender (151)
Most Conn Smythe Trophy wins (3)
And he has also won the Stanley Cup 4 times. In my mind this is dominance. He is the most dominant goalie in history in my mind.
I agree about Stevens though, he was amazing.
Long Live Leafs Nation!! |
Edited by - leafsfan_101 on 02/23/2007 17:14:15 |
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hockey coach
Top Prospect
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 16:05:56
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no doubt on this scott stevens when he played
bobby orr dominated in his hay day
today i would have to say martin brodeur is dominating in goaltending
and when healthy forsberg can dominate on both sides of rink. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 16:14:48
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My point was who was better and who was not. It was simply that those types of players I would consider dominant. There are many other forums that discuss who was better than who.
(Bab's, does it look like I am a modorator in training???) |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 16:54:18
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"Dominant" can be related to any facet of the game.
Dominant goal scorer
Dominant playmaker
Dominant hitter
Dominant skater
Dominant defense
Dominant shot blocker...
...you get the idea. Point is, good players dominate in one or more area of the game. The more areas they dominate, generally the higher up they place as dominant all-around hockey players. You don't have to be a goal scorer like Mario, Wayne, or Teemu to be dominant, you just have to be one of the best at something. But people should specify what they mean when they say "dominant".
I love Gretz, but I wouldn't put him down as an all-around dominant player. I'd put guys like Sundin, Iginla, Forsberg and Orr down for that. |
Edited by - leigh on 02/23/2007 16:57:05 |
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Guest7888
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Posted - 02/23/2007 : 19:15:14
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Its chooc. Gretzky neevr dominated even watch is 50 in 39 game scoring 5 goals he was a non factor most of the night. In fact I'd say he was the main reason it was a close game!
The most dominating players coudl control teh game the ENTIRE game. Not hang at centre wait fro a pass like Grezt.
For me Mario, Orr and Lafleur in that order.
Others Larry, Hasek, Hull, and now Crosby. Its hard to define domination - you just gotta see it and you know the guy is dominating the entire game. |
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Guest7888
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Posted - 02/23/2007 : 19:22:28
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Its chooch again. I see on the same toic on HF boards, tehat clown ogopogo says Bossy dominated. NEVER! Bossy was a pure scorer,. But coudlnt stickhandle or control a game. He dominated nothing!
He needed Trotts. A dominating player does it on his own. MArio, Lafleur Orr Jagr etc. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 20:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
Now I gotta disagree with you there lol :P. Roy was one of the best, if not the best goalie in NHL history. he wasn't overrated, he was hyped because of how good he was.
Awards
NHL All-Rookie Team - 1986
Played in 11 NHL All-Star Games - 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003
NHL Second All-Star 1985,1988, 1991
NHL First All-Star Team - 1989, 1990, 1992, 2002
Conn Smythe Trophy - 1986, 1993, 2001
William M. Jennings Trophy - 1987*, 1988*, 1989*, 1992, 2002
Vezina Trophy - 1989, 1990, 1992
In 1998, he was ranked number 35 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players.
The Colorado Sports Hall Of Fame 2004
Hockey Hall of Fame inductee 2006
Records
Most NHL games played by a goaltender (1029)
Most NHL wins (551)
Most NHL playoff games played by a goaltender (247)
Most NHL playoff wins by a goaltender (151)
Most Conn Smythe Trophy wins (3)
And he has also won the Stanley Cup 4 times. In my mind this is dominance. He is the most dominant goalie in history in my mind.
I agree about Stevens though, he was amazing.
Long Live Leafs Nation!!
Roy was a very good goalie. But how good would his stats be if he didnt play most of his career on very strong teams?
food for thought....
We can agree to disagree :) (i have this same debate with lots of hockey fans... seems to be about a 50-50 split at this point) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2007 : 20:47:35
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Some good points have been made. Beans i agree with what you say about not just having one game a player dominated but many games.
Leigh your point is great too. A player can be dominant in one area or a few. Then there is the rarest of all players who can do it all.
I have always felt that dominating meant controlling the pace of the game. There have been very, very few players who have been able to do this. It's difficult to explain what that means, but if you've seen it happen you know. I can name three players who have done this better than anyone i have seen. Doug Harvey, Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr. I'm sure you all knew that was coming, but it really is true. Gretzky and Lemieux dominated in an offensive capacity. And they were unbelievable at it. But the other three guys could do whatever the situation called for. It was as if they were the conductor of the symphony. They controlled the pace and outcome of the majority of the games they played in. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 09:37:14
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Willus, I can't disagree with you on the three players that could do anything at any time.
And Chooch, I respect your right to dislike Gretzky, but I don't respect your ignorance to the game. To say that Grezky was not a dominating offensive player is totally absurd. That is like saying Coffey was a slow skater and Bobby Orr was "ok."
It's just ingnorat to the game. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/26/2007 07:05:40 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 09:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
Now I gotta disagree with you there lol :P. Roy was one of the best, if not the best goalie in NHL history. he wasn't overrated, he was hyped because of how good he was.
Awards
NHL All-Rookie Team - 1986
Played in 11 NHL All-Star Games - 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003
NHL Second All-Star 1985,1988, 1991
NHL First All-Star Team - 1989, 1990, 1992, 2002
Conn Smythe Trophy - 1986, 1993, 2001
William M. Jennings Trophy - 1987*, 1988*, 1989*, 1992, 2002
Vezina Trophy - 1989, 1990, 1992
In 1998, he was ranked number 35 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players.
The Colorado Sports Hall Of Fame 2004
Hockey Hall of Fame inductee 2006
Records
Most NHL games played by a goaltender (1029)
Most NHL wins (551)
Most NHL playoff games played by a goaltender (247)
Most NHL playoff wins by a goaltender (151)
Most Conn Smythe Trophy wins (3)
And he has also won the Stanley Cup 4 times. In my mind this is dominance. He is the most dominant goalie in history in my mind.
I agree about Stevens though, he was amazing.
Long Live Leafs Nation!!
Roy was a very good goalie. But how good would his stats be if he didnt play most of his career on very strong teams?
food for thought....
We can agree to disagree :) (i have this same debate with lots of hockey fans... seems to be about a 50-50 split at this point)
Ok, ill agree to disagree with you. But mabye consider that Roy made those teams great. I doubt that the 93 Canadians could have won without Roy's supurb goaltending.
Long Live Leafs Nation!! |
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Guest7888
( )
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Posted - 02/24/2007 : 12:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, I can't disagree with you on the three players that could do anything at any time.
And Chooch, I respect your right to dislike Gretzky, but I don't respect your ignorance to the game. To say that Grezky was not a dominating offensive player is totally absurd. That is like saying Coffey was a slow skater and Bobby or was "ok."
It's just ingnorat to the game.
he was a dominatng West offensive centre like Denis Savard. I agree.
But I also agree with Larry who played with 99 and 10 and said "you could contain Gretzky but not Lafleur".
Gretz wouldnt have lasted in teh tough checking East thats all I've been saying. I dont hate him - I have him at #8 overall since I've been watching. |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2007 : 13:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7888
Its chooch again. I see on the same toic on HF boards, tehat clown ogopogo says Bossy dominated. NEVER! Bossy was a pure scorer,. But coudlnt stickhandle or control a game. He dominated nothing!
He needed Trotts. A dominating player does it on his own. MArio, Lafleur Orr Jagr etc.
Hey Chooch why don;t you just log in 
~~~~~GO STARS~~~~~ |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 13:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7888
Gretz wouldnt have lasted in teh tough checking East thats all I've been saying. I dont hate him - I have him at #8 overall since I've been watching.
Well chooch, the 8th-best player overall isn't what I'd call "mediocre"... |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 18:30:28
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There are some very good arguments he was mediocre.
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Dominating Players 
