| Author |
 Topic  |
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:04:51
|
Leigh had suggested i start a thread awhile back about this. I was hesitant, but here goes anyway.
The single biggest issue I have with Gretzky is actually not entirely his fault. It is in large part due to the media creation that is Gretzky. They love to cram down peoples throats that he is so humble and is such a great ambassador to the sport. And people swallow it hook, line and sinker. Make up your own minds people. Listen to what is actually said and come to your own conclusions.
I believe the opposite to be true of Gretzky. I think he is actually quite arrogant. The humbleness he tries to project is nothing put a transparent facade which becomes apparent when you truly listen to what he is saying. I will cite some quotes as this progresses. Starting with this one. "Definitely, he saw the ice the same as me, passing the puck, hockey sense, probably as similar to me as any player who has played the game." - Wayne Gretzky speaking about Igor Larionov
Now upon first read it seems as though he is just complimenting Larionov. But think about what he just said about himself. He just insinuated that no one else but Larionov was as good as he was at those things. Whether it is true or not doesn't matter, because a truly humble person would never tout himself as great. Now before you say I'm reading too much in to it, I'm not. Things are seldom as they appear folks. A closer examination is always wise. These are just my thoughts and I'm only hoping to generate some discussion.
|
|
|
tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:14:45
|
This is very subjective, but I'm in the middle on this one. I certainly wouldnt consider him arrogant, but he's not the shy overly humble person the media has projected either. I believe he may have been that person earlier in his carreer, but that changed over time.
In any case, I still think he's a great ambassador to the game. |
 |
|
|
ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:20:02
|
| I've said this before and I'll say it again about this argument because I have heard it before. I am guessing that you are not the biggest Gretzky fan, right? You probably think that someone is better, right? That is usually the case with people that think this sort of thing. Don't take this as attacks or something cause that's not what I am doing. I just think that the reason why people think these things is because they don't like someone...as many fans as Gretzky has there are just as many people that don't like him. I would definetly not consider Gretzky to be arrogant. |
|
|
|
PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:21:09
|
"Definitely, he saw the ice the same as me, passing the puck, hockey sense, probably as similar to me as any player who has played the game." - Wayne Gretzky speaking about Igor Larionov
Who was doing the interview and what was the question he was answering?
All I see is him saying Larionov was as good as he was...
"probably as similar to me as any player who has played the game." He seems to be metioning all other players here...
By the way they are all arrogant to a point, you don't get to that level thinking you are no good...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 03/08/2007 12:22:19 |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 12:39:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by ED11
I've said this before and I'll say it again about this argument because I have heard it before. I am guessing that you are not the biggest Gretzky fan, right? You probably think that someone is better, right? That is usually the case with people that think this sort of thing. Don't take this as attacks or something cause that's not what I am doing. I just think that the reason why people think these things is because they don't like someone...as many fans as Gretzky has there are just as many people that don't like him. I would definetly not consider Gretzky to be arrogant.
Whether i think someone else is better has zero to do with this. Yes there are people who are unable to be objective. And that goes for both sides. The people who like a player are most often not willing to even consider the possibility that he may have some flaws. That being said, I think you fall into that category. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:14:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
"Definitely, he saw the ice the same as me, passing the puck, hockey sense, probably as similar to me as any player who has played the game." - Wayne Gretzky speaking about Igor Larionov
Who was doing the interview and what was the question he was answering?
All I see is him saying Larionov was as good as he was...
"probably as similar to me as any player who has played the game." He seems to be metioning all other players here...
By the way they are all arrogant to a point, you don't get to that level thinking you are no good...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...
He's saying, of all the players to play, Larionov has come the closest to playing like he did. That insinuates he(Gretzky) is the best.
"By the way they are all arrogant to a point, you don't get to that level thinking you are no good..."
Ahhh the Glen Sather philosophy. I don't actually agree that all players are arrogant. Being humble doesn't mean you don't believe in your abilities.
Guy Lafleur for instance seems very sincere in his humility. |
|
|
|
ultimatetitman
Rookie
Canada
244 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:20:46
|
I think you are diving far too deeply into a puddle here. Gretzky never said that he was the greatest and only Larionov came close. He simply said he saw the ice differently than most players, and Larionov saw it the same way. Different does not always equal better.
And can anyone really argue that Greztky saw the ice differently than most players? Even Gretzky haters should admire some of the blind passes he made. He seemed to know where the puck was going well before it went there, and he knew where the goalie was going to be most of the time. How many players could do that?
Arrogance would prevent him from praising Larionov, but he didn't. He always put his team first, and never tried to stand apart from anyone.
Athletes like Terrell Owens, Deieon Sanders, Barry Bonds, Kobe and Shaq, Sean Avery, etc. are "quite arrogant". Do not lump Gretzky in with the likes of them. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:25:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by ultimatetitman
I think you are diving far too deeply into a puddle here. Gretzky never said that he was the greatest and only Larionov came close. He simply said he saw the ice differently than most players, and Larionov saw it the same way. Different does not always equal better.
And can anyone really argue that Greztky saw the ice differently than most players? Even Gretzky haters should admire some of the blind passes he made. He seemed to know where the puck was going well before it went there, and he knew where the goalie was going to be most of the time. How many players could do that?
Arrogance would prevent him from praising Larionov, but he didn't. He always put his team first, and never tried to stand apart from anyone.
Athletes like Terrell Owens, Deieon Sanders, Barry Bonds, Kobe and Shaq, Sean Avery, etc. are "quite arrogant". Do not lump Gretzky in with the likes of them.
I think you need to read my original post again. |
|
|
|
PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:37:17
|
"He's saying, of all the players to play, Larionov has come the closest to playing like he did. That insinuates he(Gretzky) is the best."
That is not what he said...
Earlier I asked who was doing the interview, and what was the question, that makes a big difference on what someone has to say...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 03/08/2007 13:38:19 |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 13:57:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
"He's saying, of all the players to play, Larionov has come the closest to playing like he did. That insinuates he(Gretzky) is the best."
That is not what he said...
Earlier I asked who was doing the interview, and what was the question, that makes a big difference on what someone has to say...
Light travels faster than sound, this is why some people appear bright, until they speak...
You're right, he doesn't come right out and say it, but that was part of my point in my original post. You have to read between the lines to really understand what people are saying. The actual words that are said are a small part of interpreting what someone is communicating.
And you have a very valid point about who asked and what was the question. Things have to be taken in context. I don't have either in this case.
You may dismiss this quote if you wish. But if you think about the possible questions that could have been asked, in this case it's not likely to change anything. |
|
|
|
tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:04:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
You're right, he doesn't come right out and say it, but that was part of my point in my original post. You have to read between the lines to really understand what people are saying. The actual words that are said are a small part of interpreting what someone is communicating.
And you have a very valid point about who asked and what was the question. Things have to be taken in context. I don't have either in this case.
You may dismiss this quote if you wish. But if you think about the possible questions that could have been asked, in this case it's not likely to change anything.
You have read between the lines the way you wanted - other people have their own interpretations and conclusions. |
|
|
|
ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:05:05
|
| This is for Willus...to say that he is arrogant is what I have a problem with...I mean come on the only person that thinks that his records will be touched and even beatn is HIM!!! Arrogant? I don't think so. And yes I do have a bias cause I like Gretzky, everyone does...so then why dive into this? People are gonna answer this based on ONE thing...if they like him they won't agree with you...if they don't like him they will. Simple as that. |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:10:02
|
| This thread is kind of pathetic...aren't there better things to debate than Gretzky's conscience? He knows whether or not he was trying to put himself above others in that comment, you don't. Discussing it on an online forum isn't going to solve anything or somehow yield the answer. Believe what you want about it, but this is yet another thread where no one's opinion will be changed... |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 03/08/2007 14:13:44 |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:15:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by ED11
This is for Willus...to say that he is arrogant is what I have a problem with...I mean come on the only person that thinks that his records will be touched and even beatn is HIM!!! Arrogant? I don't think so. And yes I do have a bias cause I like Gretzky, everyone does...so then why dive into this? People are gonna answer this based on ONE thing...if they like him they won't agree with you...if they don't like him they will. Simple as that.
Why can you not be objective? I neither like nor dislike Gretzky. I respect his talents but I'm not a Gretzky fan. But I don't hate him either.
Tctitans appears to be a Gretzky fan but he didn't completely close himself off from the thought. People can be objective ED11. |
|
|
|
bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:15:29
|
| I don't understand what would be wrong with Gretzky being truly proud of his accomplishments. If someone asks him who he thinks is the best player that ever played (I'm sure it's been asked) he'd say something like "Oh I don't know you know, it's hard to compare the skills of players in different eras..." blah blah blah. If he just looked at the person and said "Me", is that really arrogant? I don't think so, the guy deserves to consider himself the greatest and given the fact that he doesn't blatantly gloat about his records, I'd say he's pretty humble. Whatever his opinion about himself is, other people will also share it, so if he thinks he's the best that ever played, what difference does it make if it comes out of his mouth or mine? |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:20:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
This thread is kind of pathetic...aren't there better things to debate than Gretzky's conscience? He knows whether or not he was trying to put himself above others in that comment, you don't. Discussing it on an online forum isn't going to solve anything or somehow yield the answer. Believe what you want about it, but this is yet another thread where no one's opinion will be changed...
Perhaps Admin should shut down the entire site then? I thought a forum was there so people could express opinions and discuss with others. |
|
|
|
tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:25:24
|
| I don't believe that believing he is arrogant or not has anything (much?) to do with how much you like him. Personally, I highly respect him, his talents, and his accomplishments.. but he's no where near the top of my list (not even close) when it comes to favorite players, but I am still stating that i don't think he is overly arrogant. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:30:12
|
You have read between the lines the way you wanted - other people have their own interpretations and conclusions.
[/quote]
That's right. Most people take everything they see and hear at face value.
I prefer to find the meaning or truth in things. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:31:00
|
Willus, I respect your opinion on this. As easily the biggest Gretzky fan on this site, he was very arrogant. Still is. So is Orr, Howe, Lemiuex, and every other super-superstar that ever staked. One can not get to the status that Gretzky did without having a super-ego and thinking they were the best player on the ice.
Do you not think that Howe and Orr were not asked 100's of times how they characterized Gretzky's play?? I guarentee you they did, and both of them said how they were better than Wayne is some facits while Wayne was better than they were in others.
It's the nature of the beast. Think of other sports as well. Jordan, Johnson, Bird, Malone, Barkley in basketball. HUGE egos. Look at Tiger Woods and think no more.
All Super-superstars have (or had) huge egos and they all thought they were better than anyone else. They all also tried to portray being humble and didn't do a very good job of it.
Gretzky is just part of this class. |
|
|
|
ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:33:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
This thread is kind of pathetic...aren't there better things to debate than Gretzky's conscience? He knows whether or not he was trying to put himself above others in that comment, you don't. Discussing it on an online forum isn't going to solve anything or somehow yield the answer. Believe what you want about it, but this is yet another thread where no one's opinion will be changed...
Perhaps Admin should shut down the entire site then? I thought a forum was there so people could express opinions and discuss with others.
And that is exactly what we are doing Willus. Look when I say that if you like Gretzky you will agree with your thought and if you don't like him you probably won't is just my opinion. I don't mean to offend anyone on this site...this is all just good fun. Look Willus, lets be "objective" about this. To think that someone is arrogant is to not like them. Come on, respect for a player cause of what he has done for the game of hockey is one thing. Frankly how can anyone in that case not have respect for Gretzky??? But, to say that he is arrogant is to have something against him. |
Edited by - ED11 on 03/08/2007 14:36:09 |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:38:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
I don't understand what would be wrong with Gretzky being truly proud of his accomplishments. If someone asks him who he thinks is the best player that ever played (I'm sure it's been asked) he'd say something like "Oh I don't know you know, it's hard to compare the skills of players in different eras..." blah blah blah. If he just looked at the person and said "Me", is that really arrogant? I don't think so, the guy deserves to consider himself the greatest and given the fact that he doesn't blatantly gloat about his records, I'd say he's pretty humble. Whatever his opinion about himself is, other people will also share it, so if he thinks he's the best that ever played, what difference does it make if it comes out of his mouth or mine?
Well yes actually, if he said "Me" that would be arrogant. No one has the right to be arrogant. It's an ugly trait. If you've ever been around someone who was you can't tell me you enjoyed their company. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:43:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by ED11
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
This thread is kind of pathetic...aren't there better things to debate than Gretzky's conscience? He knows whether or not he was trying to put himself above others in that comment, you don't. Discussing it on an online forum isn't going to solve anything or somehow yield the answer. Believe what you want about it, but this is yet another thread where no one's opinion will be changed...
Perhaps Admin should shut down the entire site then? I thought a forum was there so people could express opinions and discuss with others.
And that is exactly what we are doing Willus. Look when I say that if you like Gretzky you will agree with your thought and if you don't like him you probably won't is just my opinion. I don't mean to offend anyone on this site...this is all just good fun. Look Willus, lets be "objective" about this. To think that someone is arrogant is to not like them. Come on, respect for a player cause of what he has done for the game of hockey is one thing. Frankly how can anyone in that case not have respect for Gretzky??? But, to say that he is arrogant is to have something against him.
Saying he is arrogant is a simple observation. I honestly do not have anything against him. Sorry. |
|
|
|
ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 14:56:32
|
| I actually think that this was a good thing to look into...thanks Will! |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:00:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Perhaps Admin should shut down the entire site then? I thought a forum was there so people could express opinions and discuss with others.
My point was that this was kind of a bad topic to debate. Of course forums are for sharing your opinions with people, but this isn't a typical thread where you can back yourself up with statistics or examples, or just a fun thread to hang out and discuss which jersey is the coolest, for example. You're trying to determine whether someone is an arrogant player or a modest one. To me it just seems kind of futile since you can't really prove anything here. Gretz knows what he meant when he made that comment, and it just seems kind of dumb to sit around and try and pick out what he meant and debate whether he was being an arrogant blowhard or just commenting Larionov. What are we? Psychologists? I don't think so. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 03/08/2007 15:01:16 |
|
|
|
tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:02:33
|
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
You have read between the lines the way you wanted - other people have their own interpretations and conclusions.
That's right. Most people take everything they see and hear at face value.
I prefer to find the meaning or truth in things.
Yes.. but since it is highly subjective.. it is still your meaning, and your truth... not The truth. |
Edited by - tctitans on 03/08/2007 15:04:40 |
|
|
|
pucker
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
398 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:05:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
This thread is kind of pathetic...aren't there better things to debate than Gretzky's conscience? He knows whether or not he was trying to put himself above others in that comment, you don't. Discussing it on an online forum isn't going to solve anything or somehow yield the answer. Believe what you want about it, but this is yet another thread where no one's opinion will be changed...
Better things to debate? Like what? Hey lets rearrange names of teams to make funny words. Willus3 is a breath of fresh air and his posts are very well thoguth out. Agree with him or not, he is a solid contributor. |
|
|
|
Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:17:41
|
| I'm not saying Willus isn't a good contributor, I think he's a great contributor who knows a lot about hockey. But hey we all make frivolous posts (mine was posting in the funny team names forum, you're right, that was kinda dumb). But come on, don't you have anything better to do than delve into Gretzky's head and argue about how arrogant he may have been? |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:21:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Perhaps Admin should shut down the entire site then? I thought a forum was there so people could express opinions and discuss with others.
My point was that this was kind of a bad topic to debate. Of course forums are for sharing your opinions with people, but this isn't a typical thread where you can back yourself up with statistics or examples, or just a fun thread to hang out and discuss which jersey is the coolest, for example. You're trying to determine whether someone is an arrogant player or a modest one. To me it just seems kind of futile since you can't really prove anything here. Gretz knows what he meant when he made that comment, and it just seems kind of dumb to sit around and try and pick out what he meant and debate whether he was being an arrogant blowhard or just commenting Larionov. What are we? Psychologists? I don't think so.
Actually I did say I would post more quotes.
Personally I couldn't be bothered to look at a mindless thread such as who has the coolest jersey. No offense to whoever started that thread, it's just a little juvenile. At least this thread requires a modicum of thought.
It has certainly generated a substantial volume of responses.
Do you know what my profession is?
|
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 15:23:19
|
| Thanks Pucker, Beans and Ed11. |
|
|
|
bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 16:04:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
I don't understand what would be wrong with Gretzky being truly proud of his accomplishments. If someone asks him who he thinks is the best player that ever played (I'm sure it's been asked) he'd say something like "Oh I don't know you know, it's hard to compare the skills of players in different eras..." blah blah blah. If he just looked at the person and said "Me", is that really arrogant? I don't think so, the guy deserves to consider himself the greatest and given the fact that he doesn't blatantly gloat about his records, I'd say he's pretty humble. Whatever his opinion about himself is, other people will also share it, so if he thinks he's the best that ever played, what difference does it make if it comes out of his mouth or mine?
Well yes actually, if he said "Me" that would be arrogant. No one has the right to be arrogant. It's an ugly trait. If you've ever been around someone who was you can't tell me you enjoyed their company.
What I would find more arrogant is someone who WASN'T the best who claimed to be. I also find someone who is overly humble to be arrogant in another sense. If Gretzky truly believes he is the best that ever played (something he has the right to think) then he surely has enough to base it upon. That's not arrogant, that's giving his opinion which means as much as yours and mine.
Now I loved Steve Yzerman and how he played. He is one of the most classy and skillful players to ever play. BUT, when he did his speech during his jersey retirement ceremony, I wasn't proud of what he said:
quote:
"I feel like my image as a great leader is greatly overblown..." said Yzerman, a comment that was met by groans in the sold-out crowd. "...Any personal success I had was because of the great players I played with."
I'm glad people "groaned". I didn't find that humble, I found that overly humble, almost to the point of arrogance. I know people might flip over me saying this but I think there's a time to be humble and there's a time to accept that you the pride and joy of a whole city for 20+ years. I don't mean he should have gone to the mic and proclaimed himself as a hero but sometimes you just have to accept some congratulations. They are meant for you, not to deflect to others. Saying that he was only successful because he played with other great players was ignorant. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 16:13:28
|
Did Stevie Y do it all by himself???
Messier did the same thing at his retirement. But I guess, the difference is he was saying thanks to some of the greatest who ever played the game. Still, it is a team sport. It would be arrogant to think one did it all by them selves. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 16:17:45
|
| That's right Beans. Giving credit to his teammates is showing respect to them. I'm not really sure how to respond to Babs comment. I'm floored actually. Too humble? Stevie Y just got even more respect from me for that play. |
|
|
|
tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 16:25:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
That's right Beans. Giving credit to his teammates is showing respect to them. I'm not really sure how to respond to Babs comment. I'm floored actually. Too humble? Stevie Y just got even more respect from me for that play.
He certainly didnt gain, or lose, any respect from me for that.
Yes, it's appropriate to thank everyone who helped you along the way, teammates, coaches, mentors, family, friends, and basically say that you didnt do it alone and that you are appreciative. That is the correct response to regurgitate.
I understand where babs is coming from a little bit. I agree that Stevie was saying the right things, i just think he didnt quite choose the proper words and did go a little bit 'too far'. That doesnt make me think any less of him, he is unquestionably a super class act. |
Edited by - tctitans on 03/08/2007 21:58:16 |
|
|
|
bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 16:29:13
|
I'm glad someone gets where I'm coming from, even just a little.
Oh give me a break (to Willus).
There's thanking teammates and there's saying that the only reason you did well was because you played with good teammates. I would expect this if suddenly the Sharks decided to retire Nils Ekman's number 28 and he said that the only reason he did so well was because he played with Thornton last year. That's believable. When one of the greatest players EVER says that, I find it ignorant. Ok maybe arrogant was the wrong word but ignorant works. It bothers me when people are awarded with something or are recognized/honoured for their success and then say "Oh I didn't deserve this"... Would Yzerman refuse the Stanley Cup because he thought he didn't deserve it? Then why all of a sudden does he "not deserve" to have his number retired? That's completely ignorant.
I do believe you can be too humble. When you say "Congrats" to someone, do you honestly appreciate it when they come back with "Well it wasn't because of me..." or "Well I don't deserve to be congratulated..."? If I say congrats, I expect a "Thanks" or even a "Well thanks but (they) deserve it too" is fine. Spreading acknowledgement is fine, but I don't like when people deflect it entirely. Agree with me or not, it's how I feel. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 03/08/2007 16:30:30 |
|
|
|
leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 16:38:24
|
Hi Willus, love the thread and I agree that we need a few more "debateable" conversations around here. It's obviously a good topic considering the response. Keep it up.
Like pucknuts was saying, I think you need to see the whole statement in context. If this was one snippet of a long interview it's not that conceited. He was probably lead down the path and his words came out. Eventually everyone submits when you get grilled by the same stuff over and over. Over 20 years you're bound to come off soounding bad occasionally.
And if the only times you sound conceited are when you are complimenting others, you can't be all bad.
As for Yzerman, I have to admit I cringed a bit when i heard that but i can dismiss it quite easily because of who he is and what he acocmplished. He was good for the game more than he was bad for it (20 fold!!) So was WG. |
|
|
|
chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 17:58:22
|
Here are the best NHL players I've seen in 35 years with an arrogance rating attached:
1.Mario - Arrogance rating 6/10
2.Hasek - 11/10
3.Orr - 1/10 (yes, one)
4.Lafleur - 0/10
5.Jagr - 7/10
6.Bourque - 0/10
7.Trottier - 9/10
8.Gretzky - 9/10
9.Esposito - 10/10 (make that 11/10 but in an endearing way)
10.Stastny - 0/10
While others were as arrogant if not more than 99, his Barnet/IMG image was created to be like Orr. He is not Orr. He was a wussy on the ice and cared only for his stats more than winning and he was not Humble in reality which was willus' point.
I mean: do you know Janet Jones Orr? Walter Orr? Paulina Orr?
No?
Orr is humble and keeps his family out of the spotlight. How many here know the names of the 2 sons of Bobby Orr?
Guy Lafleur was humble to the point of keeping the score down in the third period rather than get a hattrick and embarras someone.
Bobby Hull i hear was a top notch arrogant guy too.
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 18:07:19
|
That's a little unfair Chooch. Janet Jones was popular before she even met Gretzky. His Dad, ya, that's super cheese. And his daughter. Well, she's hot and likes to sing. What's wrong with that?? Maybe Orr's children are ugly and talentless?? That might be why they are not around.
And putting your family into it. Does that mean Gordie Howe is arrogant like Wayne Gretzky?? His whole family was around the spotlight.
PS-I can actually say I agree with your assesment of those players. Except Mario. He was an 8 or 9! |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 19:45:40
|
Great post Chooch. I like that you gave a list with your ratings attached for each. I agree almost completely with your ratings. It's good that you pointed out the humble players. Babs from the sounds of things you would really not like Lafleur and Orr. Two of the humblest guys who've played. If you want to see how a player should react after scoring a goal watch an Orr highlight clip. Unless it was a huge game winning goal there was very little in the way of a celebration. He'd skate away with his head down and wait for the inevitable hair tussle by his team mates. It was almost as if he felt bad about making the opposing team look bad. The older guys had a different incentive for playing. Guys like Orr and Lafleur weren't consciously trying to break or set records. They played first and foremost to win. To this day when asked about his stats, Orr will often say he doesn't really know, "he's not a stats guy". What he remembers is the guys he played with and how it felt to win and lose with them. Gretzky wanted to set records. It's what drove him. He wanted people to say he was the best. Lemieux was much the same.
Any way here's another Gretz quote. Very well known. It's had a few incarnations but here is the gist of it. "A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be." and "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been."
Is there any arrogance in these statements? |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 19:47:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
I'm glad someone gets where I'm coming from, even just a little.
Oh give me a break (to Willus).
There's thanking teammates and there's saying that the only reason you did well was because you played with good teammates. I would expect this if suddenly the Sharks decided to retire Nils Ekman's number 28 and he said that the only reason he did so well was because he played with Thornton last year. That's believable. When one of the greatest players EVER says that, I find it ignorant. Ok maybe arrogant was the wrong word but ignorant works. It bothers me when people are awarded with something or are recognized/honoured for their success and then say "Oh I didn't deserve this"... Would Yzerman refuse the Stanley Cup because he thought he didn't deserve it? Then why all of a sudden does he "not deserve" to have his number retired? That's completely ignorant.
I do believe you can be too humble. When you say "Congrats" to someone, do you honestly appreciate it when they come back with "Well it wasn't because of me..." or "Well I don't deserve to be congratulated..."? If I say congrats, I expect a "Thanks" or even a "Well thanks but (they) deserve it too" is fine. Spreading acknowledgement is fine, but I don't like when people deflect it entirely. Agree with me or not, it's how I feel.
Well I didn't actually see his retirement ceremony. Maybe he did overdo it.
But really, you should never knock humility. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 19:53:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Hi Willus, love the thread and I agree that we need a few more "debateable" conversations around here. It's obviously a good topic considering the response. Keep it up.
Like pucknuts was saying, I think you need to see the whole statement in context. If this was one snippet of a long interview it's not that conceited. He was probably lead down the path and his words came out. Eventually everyone submits when you get grilled by the same stuff over and over. Over 20 years you're bound to come off soounding bad occasionally.
And if the only times you sound conceited are when you are complimenting others, you can't be all bad.
As for Yzerman, I have to admit I cringed a bit when i heard that but i can dismiss it quite easily because of who he is and what he acocmplished. He was good for the game more than he was bad for it (20 fold!!) So was WG.
Appreciate it Leigh. I'll find some more quotes to bolster my viewpoint. |
|
|
|
willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 20:12:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
You have read between the lines the way you wanted - other people have their own interpretations and conclusions.
That's right. Most people take everything they see and hear at face value.
I prefer to find the meaning or truth in things.
Yes.. but since it is highly subjective.. it is still your meaning, and your truth... not The truth.
Indeed. There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
The Humble One 
