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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2007 : 08:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Lafleur never won a Cup after 1979. Nor did he break 85 points or 30 goals a year, through arguably the highest scoring period in NHL history. Lafleur won 5 Stanley Cups with Montreal in 7 years with virtually the same team and the best coach in the league at the time. Montreal won the Stanley Cup the year after Lafluer left.
Can you please explain to me how this is different than Gretzky?? He did very close to the same thing. Both played on amazing teams and didn't do much after they left those teams in regards to taking their team to the Cup. Both player’s former teams won the Cup the year after they left.
Can you explain to me, and everyone else, how these arguments prove that Lafleur was a better player than Gretzky??
Those who saw both play know that one dominated games, the other hung out at centre. (Did you see both in their primes ie 1977 and 1985, respectively?) Now, 20 years later on the Net you have those who only look at records like 9 Harts or something and say that is the superior player.
#10 had 7 years as the top player in the world playing in the tough east. Same as Orr,
#99 floated through the weak West with protection and a lousy style of play which had a major weakness in it. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2007 : 09:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chooch
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Lafleur never won a Cup after 1979. Nor did he break 85 points or 30 goals a year, through arguably the highest scoring period in NHL history. Lafleur won 5 Stanley Cups with Montreal in 7 years with virtually the same team and the best coach in the league at the time. Montreal won the Stanley Cup the year after Lafluer left.
Can you please explain to me how this is different than Gretzky?? He did very close to the same thing. Both played on amazing teams and didn't do much after they left those teams in regards to taking their team to the Cup. Both player’s former teams won the Cup the year after they left.
Can you explain to me, and everyone else, how these arguments prove that Lafleur was a better player than Gretzky??
Those who saw both play know that one dominated games, the other hung out at centre. (Did you see both in their primes ie 1977 and 1985, respectively?) Now, 20 years later on the Net you have those who only look at records like 9 Harts or something and say that is the superior player.
#10 had 7 years as the top player in the world playing in the tough east. Same as Orr,
#99 floated through the weak West with protection and a lousy style of play which had a major weakness in it.
That's an interesting opinion Chooch, but one I don't share. I watched both players in their primes, enjoyed both of their significant talents, but completely disagree with your personal conclusion. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2007 : 14:01:21
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I didn't see Lafleur in his prime. I did see Gretkzy.
And of all the games I have watched involving Gretkzy, his play was far from "hanging out at centre."
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2007 : 14:44:26
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| Just looked at this thread quickly now. My immediate thought is that, relatively speaking, Gretzky was not too bad on the "scale of arrogance". Where he lost me as a fan though was with his habit of whining about this and that for what seemed like way too many times for a so-called "classy" guy. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2007 : 14:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Just looked at this thread quickly now. My immediate thought is that, relatively speaking, Gretzky was not too bad on the "scale of arrogance". Where he lost me as a fan though was with his habit of whining about this and that for what seemed like way too many times for a so-called "classy" guy.
Do you have some specific examples...
I would rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy…
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2007 : 15:15:21
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I don't remember the details of any specific incidents if that's what you mean (at the moment anyway), but what I am referring to is the constant yapping that went on between him and the ref (about non-calls I guess). I know that to a certain extent that's part of a captain's job but I remember thinking that he did it excessively in a kind of brattish way.
But, hey, I was and am a Bruins fans, and we are scarred individuals! Anyone who has had a fair amount of success like Gretzky, some at our expense too, is gonna be looked at in a bad way by a Bruins fan. But even with that bias, I don't really think "classy" is as appropriate a word for Gretzky as it is for Laflleur (who I should be really biased against as he scarred Bruin fans BIGTIME!) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2007 : 15:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
Yeah, why is it OK with some people for Crosby to be cocky because he's famous but it's not OK for Gretzky?
I actually find Crosby to be quite humble. He doesn't come across as insincere in the least. And with today's attitudes that's quite something. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2007 : 15:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6101
What if the original question was "Does Larionov remind you, of you?" or "Do you think Larionov sees the ice the same way you do?"
The question, and timing of the answer can't be ignored. Without them, the whole discussion is moot.
Yes. I agreed earlier that things should always be taken in context. However, if the questions were what you had said above, it still doesn't discount that he inferred that no one really sees the ice as well as he does.
There are subtle nuances to anything that someone says. I'm just trying to draw peoples attention to this. If you all take everything at face value you're going to miss a lot in life. Obviously some don't care either way. I'll find some more quotes though. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2007 : 15:24:57
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Just looked at this thread quickly now. My immediate thought is that, relatively speaking, Gretzky was not too bad on the "scale of arrogance". Where he lost me as a fan though was with his habit of whining about this and that for what seemed like way too many times for a so-called "classy" guy.
Yes, I find it amusing that many call Crosby a whiner but these same people worship Gretzky. It's very well known that he was a whining brat the first part of his career. I used to refer to him as Whine Gretzky. He seriously was that bad people. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2007 : 06:52:18
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| Is it arrogant that he forced a trade because the team he was on chose to rebuild and he didn't want to wait and help the team improve but rather wanted to go to an immediate cup contending team? |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2007 : 11:19:12
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I'd say that Sean Avery is the most quiet and JR a close 2nd. I barely even heard about them in the last couple of years.
Actualy Lefleur and Lemuiex were great at what we are talking about. They are both great people off the ice. They take the time to talk or write to you and listen to what you have to say. I think that there needs to be more of this in the NHL.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 18:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Is it arrogant that he forced a trade because the team he was on chose to rebuild and he didn't want to wait and help the team improve but rather wanted to go to an immediate cup contending team?
I'm reposting this one because no one addressed it. Is the above arrogant?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 07:32:05
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It happens all the time today. Was it arrogant for Lindros to refuse to play for Quebec? Is it aggorant for players to demand no trade clauses to they can pick and choose where they go?
It's all relative. I personally think that it is crap that a player can dictate where he plays. In no other place except professional sports can some one dictate where they will and will not go. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 09:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It happens all the time today. Was it arrogant for Lindros to refuse to play for Quebec? Is it aggorant for players to demand no trade clauses to they can pick and choose where they go?
It's all relative. I personally think that it is crap that a player can dictate where he plays. In no other place except professional sports can some one dictate where they will and will not go.
I believe it was completely arrogant of Lindros. I agree that it's wrong that players dictate where they play. Those who do are arrogant enough to think that they have the right to play wherever they see fit. And every time GM's give in to players demands they are just perpetuating the situation. I believe the GM from Quebec should have played hardball with Lindros. You don't want to report to Les Nordiques? No problem, you can sit on your ass and collect dust because you aren't going to playing hockey in the NHL then.
I don't believe Gretzky should have been allowed to demand the trade he did either. He wanted to be traded to a cup contender. Yeah, well you and every other player in the league would like to be on a contender. Why should you get special treatment. Arrogance!! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 09:22:07
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| But where do you draw the line on this question? Was Bourque arrogant for letting Sinden know he wanted to go to a contender after 20 something years in Beantown, and only a couple of years left in his career? The Bruins were able to get a pretty good younger player for him in Rolston, so in a way he did them a favor one could argue. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 11:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
But where do you draw the line on this question? Was Bourque arrogant for letting Sinden know he wanted to go to a contender after 20 something years in Beantown, and only a couple of years left in his career? The Bruins were able to get a pretty good younger player for him in Rolston, so in a way he did them a favor one could argue.
I don't have an inside scoop on this but i had heard Bourque didn't actually request the trade. A team mate of his did because he felt he deserved it. I can't remember who it was now. If Bourque did in fact request the trade then yes i disagree with him doing that. Many many players have come before him who also had great careers and were unable to win a cup because of the poor teams they were unfortunate to be part of. Dems de breaks. |
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Guest2897
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Posted - 03/28/2007 : 13:29:33
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| Hockey is about selling the game to the fans. If players are playing in cities where they will not give 100%, then what use are they to the NHL. The problem lies in the fact that fans want players to continue to enter the league with more and more talent. Good luck doing that if you don't let the players play where they want to play. I think the Salary cap is a great thing in the sense that it doesn't allow this to happen as much. The great players can only be afforded by the teams that they don't want to go to. I agree that I have a strong dislike for many players who want to determine their own hometown, but I do not have any type of an issue with the Ray Bourques in this world. He played 20 years for one organization. Loyalty was his virtue. It is no longer greed at that point. All player's unltimate goal is to win the cup. He wanted to do that with Boston. Unfortunately it was to no avail. So, he packed his bags and walked into Colorado where he got what he so very much deserved...his name on the toughest trophy to win in all of sport. I say good for him. He went out on top! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 15:09:48
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| I don't think it's wrong for a player with the contributions to the game that Gretzky or Bourque had to ASK to go to a contender. DEMANDING to go is a totally different story. Out of repect to the player, the GM has a obligation to do what's right. In the case of Bourque, I think that was a great move for everyone involved. It was classy. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 16:58:35
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| Willus3 - even if you disagree with Bourque requesting the trade (I never heard it was another player's idea by the way), would you not say that the word "arrogance" in Bourque's situation doesn't quite fit? I think you'll agree that it is a very very different situation from Lindros and Gretzky. In my mind, at most, Bourque was guilty of some selfishness, but even that word has to be put into context. He played very hard that final year with the Bs, as always, and my understanding is that until it was clear that they were not going anywhere, his intention was actually to stay in Boston. And again, at that very late stage, by him moving not only was he giving himself a chance to win the Cup, but he was also giving the Bruins a chance to get a quality player or two in exchange for him before he retired. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 19:06:49
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I don't consider Bourque arrogant. I've always thought very highly of how Bourque carried himself.
I have to wonder how satisfying his cup win feels though. |
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Guest4462
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Posted - 03/29/2007 : 01:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I don't consider Bourque arrogant. I've always thought very highly of how Bourque carried himself.
I have to wonder how satisfying his cup win feels though.
I completely agree.
It's like an asterixed pity cup. |
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The Humble One 
