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Guest2757
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Posted - 06/26/2011 :  05:51:49  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Now that it is final, What team in your opnion won this trade

Choices:

Boston: Seguin, Knight, and Hamilton
Even
Toronto: Phil Kessel

(Anonymous Vote)

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2011 :  10:11:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So sick of this topic...

What about who won the Kaberle trade ?
Boston.....Thomas Kaberle...

Toronto....J.M. Liles - Joe Colbourne - and a 1st round pick.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2011 :  10:47:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Firstly, Duke if you don`t like the topic than don`t make a post. Secondly, the question was about the Kessel deal, not the Kaberle deal. If you want to discuss than deal than go find a thread disussing it or create a new one. Finally, it`s absurd to rate a trade in the way you are implying. Liles was not part of the Kaberle deal. The deal was Colboure, a 1st round pick, and a 2nd round pick for Kaberle. Rate that trade. Liles for a 2nd round pick is a completely different trade with a different team. Not one and the same.


To the question at hand, it`s still too early to say. Seguin has shown flashes of brilliant and a whole lot of average and inconsistent play. He is still young and developing so who knows. Hamilton has potential up the ying/yang but who knows.


If both players reach their projected potential, I don't see how anyone can say Kessel is worth a franchise Centre AND a franchise 6'5" mobile defensemen. But that is still IF they both reach their potential. If one of them reaches their potential, I say the trade is a draw.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2011 :  13:35:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still too early but it looks like Boston won the trade, simply because a year ago Toronto had their worst seasons in ages and Boston drafted 2nd overall because of that resulting in them getting Seguin.

At the time the trade was fair, seeing the results I say Boston has the edge, now. But Toronto didn't lose big time because 30 goal scorers are hard to find, not every team has one. And I still think that playing with the right center Kessel could get up to 40. Something that Seguin might never reach.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2011 :  17:48:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans relating Seguin with Boston on this tread ( in the kessel deal ) is no diffrent than relating J.M.Liles with Toronto ( in the kaberle deal ) . The leafs used Bostons pick to obtain Liles....Boston used Torontos pick to obtain Seguin.

Toronto did not trade Seguin for Kessel...they traded draft picks for kessel ....If you say its absurd to include Liles in the kaberle deal, then its also absurd to include Seguin in the kessel deal, since neither ( Seguin / Liles ) were directly traded for another player...they were BOTH obtained by another teams draft pick.

Whats the difference really ?

Anyway i`m off to Labrador again in the morning ( work calls ), every1 have a nice summer, enjoy.

p.s...will be coming out west this summer, my son will be competing in the national midget baseball tourney in August...being held in Regina Sask....hope the larger provinces don`t run up the score too much ...later
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2266 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  02:53:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Beans relating Seguin with Boston on this tread ( in the kessel deal ) is no diffrent than relating J.M.Liles with Toronto ( in the kaberle deal ) . The leafs used Bostons pick to obtain Liles....Boston used Torontos pick to obtain Seguin.

Toronto did not trade Seguin for Kessel...they traded draft picks for kessel ....If you say its absurd to include Liles in the kaberle deal, then its also absurd to include Seguin in the kessel deal, since neither ( Seguin / Liles ) were directly traded for another player...they were BOTH obtained by another teams draft pick.

Whats the difference really ?

Anyway i`m off to Labrador again in the morning ( work calls ), every1 have a nice summer, enjoy.

p.s...will be coming out west this summer, my son will be competing in the national midget baseball tourney in August...being held in Regina Sask....hope the larger provinces don`t run up the score too much ...later



Look out for Valleyfield QC,, not because they are any good but because they are dirty and D-bags all the way around ,, there was actually atsn story about them starting a brawl last year at the National Championships,, any good luck to your son watch out for B.C when i played in the tourny i think they beat us 24 to 1, and the fact that we got a run was like winning the ship!

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  05:25:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's still way to early, as we are talking about picks who haven't had a solid chance to develop and play in the NHL yet, and even for Kessel, he still may not have reached his peak value.

Right now, Kessel wins easily. Seguin, as Beans said, has been brilliant for one or two games, very ordinary the rest of the time. Basically, it's a top twenty goal scorer versus a guy who won you one playoff game and was forgettable for the other games he played.

Myself, I am not convinced at all that Seguin will be a top line guy at all, and I remember people making fun of me when I said that he could turn into a "Matt Stajan" player - may top out at 60 points one or two years, second liner at best the rest of the time. I still say that's quite possible.

But like Beans said, that Hamilton kid could be a real gem of a player, we just don't know yet.

Make another poll in three, four years.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  06:18:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Beans relating Seguin with Boston on this tread ( in the kessel deal ) is no diffrent than relating J.M.Liles with Toronto ( in the kaberle deal ) . The leafs used Bostons pick to obtain Liles....Boston used Torontos pick to obtain Seguin.

Toronto did not trade Seguin for Kessel...they traded draft picks for kessel ....If you say its absurd to include Liles in the kaberle deal, then its also absurd to include Seguin in the kessel deal, since neither ( Seguin / Liles ) were directly traded for another player...they were BOTH obtained by another teams draft pick.

Whats the difference really ?

Anyway i`m off to Labrador again in the morning ( work calls ), every1 have a nice summer, enjoy.

p.s...will be coming out west this summer, my son will be competing in the national midget baseball tourney in August...being held in Regina Sask....hope the larger provinces don`t run up the score too much ...later




Duke, you can rate trades how ever you wish. I just don't think you can compare a draft pick from one trade with a player from another trade. The Seguin pick was directly related to the Kessel deal. The Liles trade was not directly related to Kaberle.

Let's look at this as an example.

Chris Pronger from STL to EDM for Eric Brewer, Doug Lynch, and Jeff Woywitka.

Chris Pronger from EDM to ANA for Lupul, Smid, 2-1st rounds(one conditional) and a second round. One of those 1st rounders went to Phoenix in a trade.

Lupul and Smith to Philly for Pitkanen and Sanderson

Pitkanen to Carolina for Cole

Cole to Carolina for a 2nd round pick.

See the logic??? I don't see how you can string players from one deal to the next deal.

Kaberle was not traded for Liles. The 2nd round pick was the player to put into the equation. The Liles deal afterwards is not relative to the Kaberle deal.



No, Slozo I gotta say that I don't see Boston as much as the guys out west but I still think that Seguin will be a legit player in the game. Comparing him to Stajan is still off. 11 goal and 11 assists in 74 games playing 12 mins a game. He was 20th(ish ) in rookie scoing and only Mikael Backlund in Calgary played few minutes per game. He got skills, there is no doubt.

But I agree that Dougie Hamilton might actually be the player to make this deal punish the Leafs in the future. You don't see mobile 6'5" defenders very often and even fewer with both offensive and defensive potential like Hamilton.

Hamilton and Seguin have the potential to be franchise players. Kessel might be a franchise player. Even saying he is, one franchise player traded for 2 franchise players is not even.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  06:45:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I'm gonna go against the grain here, and also perhaps show my homer side.

In my verrrry humble opinion, it is NOT to early to call! At this point Boston is ahead, and moreover, it will take more than a handfull of 30 and even 40 or 50 goal seasons by Kessel to change that.

Why?

It's Game 2 of the Conference Finals. And the Bs are in trouble, having lost the first game badly and, more importantly, being without Bergeron, the player who had been quite possibly their best player in the first two rounds. A 19 year old kid is asked to do his best to help in those circumstances. Let me repeat the first part. A 19 year old kid! And they were dire circumstances as Boston probably ain't coming back from 0-2 deficits before going on the road twice in a row. Not against a solid Tampa Bay team. Perhaps not impossible, but very, very improbable.

And the kid came through big time!

Did he produce hardly anything in terms of points after that? Who cares?

That game and that game alone puts Boston in a significant lead as far as I am concerned with respect to this question. Kessel has his work cut out for him to make this a "win" trade for Toronto, even if Seguin goes on to achieve far less than what is expected of him.
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Guest4312
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Posted - 06/27/2011 :  07:56:32  Reply with Quote
ya even if the trade was hamilton and seguin for kessel it would be lobsided if i was toronto i would have my fingers crossed that knight never plays a game in the nhl just to avoid making burke look like he made one of the worst trades in history
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Guest7752
( )

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  10:03:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

Well, I'm gonna go against the grain here, and also perhaps show my homer side.

In my verrrry humble opinion, it is NOT to early to call! At this point Boston is ahead, and moreover, it will take more than a handfull of 30 and even 40 or 50 goal seasons by Kessel to change that.

Why?

It's Game 2 of the Conference Finals. And the Bs are in trouble, having lost the first game badly and, more importantly, being without Bergeron, the player who had been quite possibly their best player in the first two rounds. A 19 year old kid is asked to do his best to help in those circumstances. Let me repeat the first part. A 19 year old kid! And they were dire circumstances as Boston probably ain't coming back from 0-2 deficits before going on the road twice in a row. Not against a solid Tampa Bay team. Perhaps not impossible, but very, very improbable.

And the kid came through big time!

Did he produce hardly anything in terms of points after that? Who cares?

That game and that game alone puts Boston in a significant lead as far as I am concerned with respect to this question. Kessel has his work cut out for him to make this a "win" trade for Toronto, even if Seguin goes on to achieve far less than what is expected of him.


You are bang on.
As of today, B's have won in this deal big time.
Seguin helped bring the cup to the Bruins - can't say Kessel helped win a cup, or even helped bring TO into the playoffs.
No one can predict the future, so no matter what everyone will say about Kessel and Leafs of "tomorrow"... as of today - B's won this trade by far.
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Guest2714
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Posted - 06/27/2011 :  14:19:05  Reply with Quote
I would trade any player if it meant I was going to win the Stanley Cup. The standard now for Kessel isn't points anymore, its Stanley Cups. He needs to win multiple cups with Toronto for Burke to justify this trade.
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Guest2771
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Posted - 07/20/2011 :  08:55:52  Reply with Quote
I think almost all informed fans would agree that Boston won this trade by a wide margin. There is no way Burke makes this trade as is and Toronto fans will be regretting it for a long time. Kessel does not equall Seguin, Hamilton and Knight. Not now and not in the future.
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Guest4086
( )

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  09:19:02  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2714

I would trade any player if it meant I was going to win the Stanley Cup. The standard now for Kessel isn't points anymore, its Stanley Cups. He needs to win multiple cups with Toronto for Burke to justify this trade.



i don't think this is the standard for Kessel at all. it takes a whole team to win the Cup, not just one individual. every GM brings in players to a team in order to fill a specific role in helping to win the Cup. Burke brought Kessel in to score goals. if Kessel is to win a Cup with Toronto, then that would be his role in doing so. thus, as long as Kessel continues to score goals in Toronto, then he is doing what he's supposed to be doing.
maybe you should have worded it "Burke needs to win multiple Cups with Kessel in Toronto, in order to justify this trade."

my worry as a Leaf fan, is that when Kessel's contract expires in 3 years, and they still haven't won the Cup, he will bolt for another team that is in a better position to win. if that happens, then the trade is a complete loss for Toronto.
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2011 :  23:08:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No one has won ............... yet, although, that there ring is pretty shiny n' stuff
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  05:49:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

Well, I'm gonna go against the grain here, and also perhaps show my homer side.

In my verrrry humble opinion, it is NOT to early to call! At this point Boston is ahead, and moreover, it will take more than a handfull of 30 and even 40 or 50 goal seasons by Kessel to change that.

Why?

It's Game 2 of the Conference Finals. And the Bs are in trouble, having lost the first game badly and, more importantly, being without Bergeron, the player who had been quite possibly their best player in the first two rounds. A 19 year old kid is asked to do his best to help in those circumstances. Let me repeat the first part. A 19 year old kid! And they were dire circumstances as Boston probably ain't coming back from 0-2 deficits before going on the road twice in a row. Not against a solid Tampa Bay team. Perhaps not impossible, but very, very improbable.

And the kid came through big time!

Did he produce hardly anything in terms of points after that? Who cares?

That game and that game alone puts Boston in a significant lead as far as I am concerned with respect to this question. Kessel has his work cut out for him to make this a "win" trade for Toronto, even if Seguin goes on to achieve far less than what is expected of him.



So Andyhack, I have a question for you. Purely speculative, of course, as I don't personally own a hottub time machine . . . but here goes:

Let's imagine that the Kessel trade never happened. Seguin (or Hall) playing for the Leafs now, and Phil is playing for Boston. He plays the whole season for Boston, and has almost the same performance as what he had in Toronto last year - 32 goals, 32 assists (as opposed to Seguin's 74 game, 11 goals, 11 assists performance).

1) Does Boston finish at only #3 in the conference, or do they get a few more wins because of Kessel and move to #2 or #1?

2) Does Kessel play in more games than Seguin did in the playoffs? (Seguin played in 13 games, after sitting out the first two series) If so, wouldn't he have played in all 25 games if healthy?

3) Would Kessel have scored more goals, more assists and more points than Seguin in playing for the B's?

4) Would Kessel have had an impact that would have at least equalled or surpassed that of Seguin's one game performance against Tampa Bay in round three, getting 2 goals and 2 assists? Or, better yet . . . would it have been needed, because Kessel made them that much better than their third round opponent in the first place (ie - they never would have gone 7 games)?

* * * * *

Interesting questions, because IMHO, you need to answer those questions FIRST before declaring that Boston won the trade for a player that had a goal and an assist in his first game of the playoffs, Game #1 of Round 3, and one signature game in the playoffs that evened the series 1-1 in the third round.

Food for thought, at least.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  07:41:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I say Boston wins based on the potential of their three players compared to Kessel. I have no doubt in my mind that Kessel is now and will be the best goal scorer of any of the players in the deal. I also believe the Seguin will be the best all-around player of any of those involved in the deal. I see Seguin being a 25ish goal - 80+ point players. I think Seguin is just as fast, if not faster than Kessel and I think Seguin is already a better playmaker and passer than Kessel. I also think Seguin is more a better defensive player than Kessel as well. I do see the potential of Seguin becoming a very Jonathon Toews like player.

So, with that alone, Boston wins the deal. Add in Hamilton and Knight and it's not even really close. If Hamilton reaches his potential to be a Rob Blake type defensemen, the scale is so tipped by that point the Kessel deal might go down as one of the worst trades of all time.

Boston got what most say to be the best all-around forward available in the 2010 draft and the best defensemen in the the 2011 draft the price of one, top tier level goal scorer they were not planning to re-sign anyway. It's not hard to see who wins this trade.
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  07:49:13  Reply with Quote
If the question was "who won this trade for this season?", Slozo has a point, but I don't think that's the question? I think the question was "Who won the Phil Kessel Trade?" which IMO doesn't translate to the first year performances of the two key players involved. (But don't forget about Dougie Hamilton.) I agree with Beans' overall assessment of this trade, and in particular, that it's too early to tell who won the trade.

To answer the hypothetical questions which Slozo poses is almost silly. (Emphasis on almost.) Of course Toronto should win the trade in the first year. You're comparing a guy in his first year of the NHL to a guy who's been in the NHL four seasons. The difference is age is over four years Kessel was born in 1987, and Seguin was born in 1992!

Boston was not expected to "cash in" on this trade for years to come, but for Seguin to produce the way he did in his first NHL season was a bonus to the Bruins. (Regardless of how we think Kessel would have performed with the Bruins.) If it were the other way around, and Kessel helped the Bruins win the cup (and Seguin played his first NHL season for the Leafs), it would be premature to judge this non-trade/non-deal in the Bruins favour at least until Seguin had 3 or 4 seasons under his belt.
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Guest4086
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Posted - 07/21/2011 :  09:44:42  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I say Boston wins based on the potential of their three players compared to Kessel. I have no doubt in my mind that Kessel is now and will be the best goal scorer of any of the players in the deal. I also believe the Seguin will be the best all-around player of any of those involved in the deal. I see Seguin being a 25ish goal - 80+ point players. I think Seguin is just as fast, if not faster than Kessel and I think Seguin is already a better playmaker and passer than Kessel. I also think Seguin is more a better defensive player than Kessel as well. I do see the potential of Seguin becoming a very Jonathon Toews like player.

So, with that alone, Boston wins the deal. Add in Hamilton and Knight and it's not even really close. If Hamilton reaches his potential to be a Rob Blake type defensemen, the scale is so tipped by that point the Kessel deal might go down as one of the worst trades of all time.

Boston got what most say to be the best all-around forward available in the 2010 draft and the best defensemen in the the 2011 draft the price of one, top tier level goal scorer they were not planning to re-sign anyway. It's not hard to see who wins this trade.



the only arguement i would have is that if.......and quite obviously a big IF.......if Burke wins the Cup as GM of the Leafs, and Kessel is on that winning team, then I would argue in favor of Toronto winning the trade.
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Guest4312
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Posted - 07/21/2011 :  10:00:59  Reply with Quote
the only arguement i would have is that if.......and quite obviously a big IF.......if Burke wins the Cup as GM of the Leafs, and Kessel is on that winning team, then I would argue in favor of Toronto winning the trade.
[/quote]

... wouldn't that make it 1 cup to 1 cup... in which case you could say the trade was even. If toronto wins a single cup and boston wins no more in the time span these players are around i would still say its even at best (for TO). simply because winning a cup in toronto would go a long way and mean a lot for the city that is going on 44 years without one. not that the cup in boston wasn't well recieved
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  10:43:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4312

the only arguement i would have is that if.......and quite obviously a big IF.......if Burke wins the Cup as GM of the Leafs, and Kessel is on that winning team, then I would argue in favor of Toronto winning the trade.



... wouldn't that make it 1 cup to 1 cup... in which case you could say the trade was even. If toronto wins a single cup and boston wins no more in the time span these players are around i would still say its even at best (for TO). simply because winning a cup in toronto would go a long way and mean a lot for the city that is going on 44 years without one. not that the cup in boston wasn't well recieved
[/quote]

That would make it 1 cup to 1 cup IF - and that's a big if - Kessel's contribution to that win were equal to Seguin's was this year.

Without injury, I can nearly guarantee a bigger contribution (in that hypothetical situation).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  11:26:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cup against Cup is a hard measure in this case. If TO goes on to win a Cup in the next few season it will be based on more than the Kessel addition. I would suggest it would also include the impact of players like Phaneuf, Liles, Connally, Riemer, Schenn, etc.

It's a tough swing for Burke as this is more of a situation where if the Leafs do not win a Cup it will be blamed on the Kessel deal and if they win the Cup it will be more than a Kessel deal.

I still don't like the trade but I also think it's a situation where the perception will never allow it to appear to be a good deal.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  11:29:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

Well, I'm gonna go against the grain here, and also perhaps show my homer side.

In my verrrry humble opinion, it is NOT to early to call! At this point Boston is ahead, and moreover, it will take more than a handfull of 30 and even 40 or 50 goal seasons by Kessel to change that.

Why?

It's Game 2 of the Conference Finals. And the Bs are in trouble, having lost the first game badly and, more importantly, being without Bergeron, the player who had been quite possibly their best player in the first two rounds. A 19 year old kid is asked to do his best to help in those circumstances. Let me repeat the first part. A 19 year old kid! And they were dire circumstances as Boston probably ain't coming back from 0-2 deficits before going on the road twice in a row. Not against a solid Tampa Bay team. Perhaps not impossible, but very, very improbable.

And the kid came through big time!

Did he produce hardly anything in terms of points after that? Who cares?

That game and that game alone puts Boston in a significant lead as far as I am concerned with respect to this question. Kessel has his work cut out for him to make this a "win" trade for Toronto, even if Seguin goes on to achieve far less than what is expected of him.



This is why I enjoy your posts. You get it. You get that this is a team sport and that the object is to win. It isn't to have a Richard winner but never win anything as a team. Seguin has already shown he can integrate into a team and help them win at the highest level and at a crucial time. I agree, Boston wins thus far.
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Guest4086
( )

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  11:45:40  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Cup against Cup is a hard measure in this case. If TO goes on to win a Cup in the next few season it will be based on more than the Kessel addition. I would suggest it would also include the impact of players like Phaneuf, Liles, Connally, Riemer, Schenn, etc.

It's a tough swing for Burke as this is more of a situation where if the Leafs do not win a Cup it will be blamed on the Kessel deal and if they win the Cup it will be more than a Kessel deal.

I still don't like the trade but I also think it's a situation where the perception will never allow it to appear to be a good deal.



i can see your point. but the flip side to that would be to say that if Toronto were to win the Cup within the next few seasons, the path Burke laid out that lead to that Cup win all started when he made the trade for Kessel. that was the first of his many transactions.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5793 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  12:18:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4178

Boston was not expected to "cash in" on this trade for years to come, but for Seguin to produce the way he did in his first NHL season was a bonus to the Bruins.


True, but by already winning a cup, they've not just solidified their future, but they've snuck a cup in there after dealing one of their top snipers for future assets! Pretty impressive.

This subject really needs to be put to rest. The Bruins won this trade and it's not really even a fair argument! I will concede, Burke didn't expect his team to be as bad as it was and therefore have to give up the picks they did. But, unfortunately for him and Leaf Nation, that's what happened, making this lopsided in the B's favour.

I ask any of you, looking now at the assets the Bruins have aquired (and ignore their cup win for a second), who won? Would you rather have Kessel, or the guys the Bruins ended up with? I think it's a no brainer, but that might just be me?
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  12:40:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, am I the only one that sees a cart about 2 miles ahead of a horse here?

If Toronto wins a cup with Kessel? I think even the most ardent TO fans realize it'll take more than Kessel, Unfair to use that as a measuring stick. They are still a ways away from that, and it won't be Kessel that shifts the balance in that direction.

So who won the trade?

As mentioned, a trade is made to improve a team. a trade is made to move a player that may want more money than the current team is willing to pay. A trade is made for various reasons, but at the core, the trade is made, with the intent of helping the team, as it stands at that time.

Kessel definetely brought spark, excitement, and renewed faith that the Burke and the buds were building something.

The Bruins won the Stanley Cup.

Not sure what else there is to debate, aside from what ifs, and coulda beens.

From the TEAM perspective, the Bruins won this trade hands down. They did what they did from TEAM reasons, and it worked out superbly. There is so much more involved than simply Kessel for what ended being Seguin, there were the cap considerations had they tried to keep Kessel, that may not have allowed them to keep the roster intact that won the Cup. The whole dynamic of the team could have been different had they kept Kessel.

The better question might be which team benefited the most from the trade, and with a Stanley Cup in their hands, and some solid young talent derived from it, it's hard to argue that Boston didn't 'win' the trade based on all that.

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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2011 :  23:12:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4086

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I say Boston wins based on the potential of their three players compared to Kessel. I have no doubt in my mind that Kessel is now and will be the best goal scorer of any of the players in the deal. I also believe the Seguin will be the best all-around player of any of those involved in the deal. I see Seguin being a 25ish goal - 80+ point players. I think Seguin is just as fast, if not faster than Kessel and I think Seguin is already a better playmaker and passer than Kessel. I also think Seguin is more a better defensive player than Kessel as well. I do see the potential of Seguin becoming a very Jonathon Toews like player.

So, with that alone, Boston wins the deal. Add in Hamilton and Knight and it's not even really close. If Hamilton reaches his potential to be a Rob Blake type defensemen, the scale is so tipped by that point the Kessel deal might go down as one of the worst trades of all time.

Boston got what most say to be the best all-around forward available in the 2010 draft and the best defensemen in the the 2011 draft the price of one, top tier level goal scorer they were not planning to re-sign anyway. It's not hard to see who wins this trade.



the only arguement i would have is that if.......and quite obviously a big IF.......if Burke wins the Cup as GM of the Leafs, and Kessel is on that winning team, then I would argue in favor of Toronto winning the trade.


No, that would make it even as Boston has won one already.
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andyhack
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Japan
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Posted - 07/23/2011 :  14:58:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

So Andyhack, I have a question for you. Purely speculative, of course, as I don't personally own a hottub time machine . . . but here goes:

Let's imagine that the Kessel trade never happened. Seguin (or Hall) playing for the Leafs now, and Phil is playing for Boston. He plays the whole season for Boston, and has almost the same performance as what he had in Toronto last year - 32 goals, 32 assists (as opposed to Seguin's 74 game, 11 goals, 11 assists performance).

1) Does Boston finish at only #3 in the conference, or do they get a few more wins because of Kessel and move to #2 or #1?

2) Does Kessel play in more games than Seguin did in the playoffs? (Seguin played in 13 games, after sitting out the first two series) If so, wouldn't he have played in all 25 games if healthy?

3) Would Kessel have scored more goals, more assists and more points than Seguin in playing for the B's?

4) Would Kessel have had an impact that would have at least equalled or surpassed that of Seguin's one game performance against Tampa Bay in round three, getting 2 goals and 2 assists? Or, better yet . . . would it have been needed, because Kessel made them that much better than their third round opponent in the first place (ie - they never would have gone 7 games)?

* * * * *

Interesting questions, because IMHO, you need to answer those questions FIRST before declaring that Boston won the trade for a player that had a goal and an assist in his first game of the playoffs, Game #1 of Round 3, and one signature game in the playoffs that evened the series 1-1 in the third round.

Food for thought, at least.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



My answers to 1 to 3 are "probably" and my answer to 4 (the key question here) is "maybe, but the actual standard set by Seguin is a very very very high one"

I acknowledge that Kessel is a potentially very dangerous player who has the ability to make great contributions (he did for the Bs at times in 2009). And I do not dismiss the value of considering hypotheticals in an analysis such as this (I raised them too a few years ago in other threads and took some heat for it actually).

BUT, as good as Kessel might have been for the Bs in the speculative hottub time machine scenario, we can never forget that we are weighing such a hypothetical scenario against an actual performance that was a very very very good one at a very very very key time. In other words, for the potential hypothetical scenario to match Seguin's actual performance, even in your hottub time machine, Phil has to almost single-handedly win a very crucial game for the Bs. Moreover (and this is the kicker), even if we speculate that Phil could have done just that for the Bs, he has not actually done it.

Simply put, we cannot say at this point

"Phil Kessel came through bigtime in a very crucial game that helped lead his team to the Stanley Cup"

We can say that about a guy named Tyler Seguin.
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Porkchop73
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Posted - 07/24/2011 :  03:01:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
the actual standard set by Seguin is a very very very high one"


I lost interest in this debate a long time ago but this is intriguing.

So the very very very high std for a NHL player to have an impact for his team is to be in the press box 85% of the of the time. Get in to the game because of injuries. Have one 4 pt game and an avg of 8 min per game ice time in the cup final.
Seguin is a fine young player but you have got to be kidding me.
I will give you an example of an NHL player setting a very very very high std for impact by a player in the playoffs, and I will use a rookie at that.
A very very very high std for rookie NHL player having an impact in the playoffs for his team would be Patrick Roy in 86.
I could think of countless more impact performances by an NHL player in the playoffs then Seguin had for the Bruins this year.

I am not discounting the ability that Seguin has but your point of a very very very high std is ridiculous.


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andyhack
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Posted - 07/24/2011 :  05:09:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

quote:
the actual standard set by Seguin is a very very very high one"


I lost interest in this debate a long time ago but this is intriguing.

So the very very very high std for a NHL player to have an impact for his team is to be in the press box 85% of the of the time. Get in to the game because of injuries. Have one 4 pt game and an avg of 8 min per game ice time in the cup final.
Seguin is a fine young player but you have got to be kidding me.
I will give you an example of an NHL player setting a very very very high std for impact by a player in the playoffs, and I will use a rookie at that.
A very very very high std for rookie NHL player having an impact in the playoffs for his team would be Patrick Roy in 86.
I could think of countless more impact performances by an NHL player in the playoffs then Seguin had for the Bruins this year.

I am not discounting the ability that Seguin has but your point of a very very very high std is ridiculous.




Forgive me for answering Slozo's questions with such a ridiculous point. I am very very very sorry.

The use of the "verys" was just for emphasis.

I simply wanted to get across that a 4 point game at a crucial time is significant (and in my opinion puts Boston well ahead at this point in the question of who won this trade). Even if we imagine that Phil could have done that (which is not so easy to do as it is not just a minor, average, or even merely a good accomplishment), Phil hasn't actually done it. And that accomplishment helped, a lot, in the Bs Cup story.

The point is not to knock Phil, but to emphasize that what Seguin did in, yes, that ONE and only game should be highly valued in analyzing the answer to the question of this thread.

My ridiculous response is over.
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Alex116
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  09:14:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with PC that i think you're putting FAR too much emphasis on that one game. Yeah, heckuva game, but as far as using that to say who's winning or who won the trade it ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, imo, the B's won this trade, no questions asked. But i'd be saying that even if Seguin sat in the press box the entire playoffs and didin't get a sniff of ice time!
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The Duke
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  10:27:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It will be clearer in a few seasons as to who really won this trade. The B`s seem to have gotten a great young player and the leafs received a prolific goal scorer with 40 - 45 goal scoring possibilities.

Both teams did good here, really. As to the other 2 B`s youngsters, who knows how they will turn out.

If Boston won the kessel deal..ok..they are up 1...They got BURRRRRRRNNNNED big time, RIPPED ..on the Kaberle deal.

Everythings even.
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Beans15
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  11:52:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, how can you say that Boston got burned big time on the Kaberle deal but say we have to wait and see if the Kessel deal is good or not?? One thing is for certain, Boston won the Cup with Kaberle. One thing is not for certain and that's what will happen with Colburne and Tyler Biggs(pick traded from Anaheim). The 2nd round picks are a wash as TO gave up a 2nd round pick this season in the deal to move to #22 overall and they get a 2nd round pick from Boston next season.

With Kessel, where does the 40-45 goals come from?? When does potential end and reality begin? I get that he's still 23 yrs old, however he has 5 full NHL seasons under his belt and only came close to 40 goals once and it was far close to 35 than 40. How does seasons of 36, 30, and 32 become 40-45??? I would think that TO fans can count on a number of 30-35 goal seasons, but 40 would be a career year and a peak for Kessel in my opinion. He has not shown any indication of being anything more than that. I think one could look at almost any player in league history and see that rarely to they improve significantly off their 4th to 6th season. It is what it is. Sure, there might be an exception here or there, but in MOST cases, that time period will tell you what a player will give for through this prime. I firmly believe that Kessel's plateau is 35 goal + or - 3 goals. One thing that can not be understated with that is that Kessel is one of those guys you can count on for that every single year.

I still hold firm that Kessel compared to Seguin and Hamilton has the potential to go down as one of the worst trades in the history of the NHL. Those two guys are cornerstone/franchise player potential guys. Kessel is an top tier talent but not a player to build a team around. A key piece to the puzzle, but not the cornerstone.

2 cornerstone players vs one key piece to the puzzle. How is that 'even'?
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Guest4178
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  14:19:51  Reply with Quote
For those who believe that winning a cup proves who wins a trade, how about the Rob Ramage - Brett Hull trade in 1988?

Calgary got Rob Ramage, and went on to win the cup a season later, but how much of a factor was Rob Ramage with Calgary's cup win in 1989?

St. Louis got one of the most prolific scorers in NHL history (741 goals), and one might add that Brett Hull may have helped keep the team alive in St. Louis. It was only four years prior to this trade when the Blues owners (Ralston Purina) wanted to "fly the noon balloon" to Saskatoon, by selling the team to a group of Saskatchewan businessmen headed up by Wild Bill Hunter.

So while Calgary won the cup with Rob Ramage in their lineup, I think St. Louis got the better of the deal. (Calgary may have won their one cup without Ramage in their lineup.) The Blues got a Hall-of-Famer, and I would venture to say they put a lot of bums in their seats with the most exciting goal scorer in NHL history. (And for some teams, this is almost as important as winning the cup, and that's called survival.)

In ten seasons with the Blues, Hull tallied 521 goals (an average of 52 goals a season), including seasons of 70, 72 and 86 goals. With Brett Hull as the lure, the Blues landed Gretzky for part of the 1995-1996 season, which was a nice bonus to the Blues fans.

And for those who say that the Flames traded a pudgy unproven talent, I disagree. Hull proved himself with 50 goals in the AHL the previous season, and in his first 52 games in the NHL (with the Flames), he scored 26 goals. (And one can't ignore his pedigree either.)

What does this have to do with the Kessel trade? Just the winning the cup part. I think Seguin was a small factor with the Bruins cup win, but regardless of how one feels about his impact in the playoffs, this trade is more about Seguin's future value (and Hamilton's too) than how he helped the Bruins in the post-season in his first NHL season.

The cup win was a bonus (and that Seguin provided some value in the playoffs) the Bruins were trading for the future, and while I think Kessel is a good player, I think the Bruins will prove to be the winner of this trade in years to come. And I would make the same point even if the Bruins didn't win the cup this year.


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Alex116
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  14:36:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4178.....Very well said. All of it!

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Guest4312
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  15:03:28  Reply with Quote
k but what about this: many think that seguin will be better than kessel, the bruins won the cup, boston has the ability to win many more cups with the youth the acquired in the deal, and as a bonus got two additional players (1 of which is likely a top 4 defenseman)... of the three players only 1 had an impact (minor at that) in the past stanley cup win for boston. that doesn't say what they will do in the future for boston... in the 2 years kessel has played for the leafs they haven't even made the playoffs. lets evaluate the deal when seguin, hamilton, and knight are 23 going on 24 and see where they are at in their respective careers.

and for goodness sake please put this thread to rest its gotta be painful for leaf fans hearing it over and over and equally as painful for people like myself having to convince others that hamilton and seguin are marquee players even though they are 18 and 19 years old. i'll remind you all that kessels numbers as a rookie weren't all that flattering (11 goals; 29 pts)
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Guest2744
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  17:19:56  Reply with Quote
Lets look at Kessel's mighty playoff stats, oh wait Boston owns them too.
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The Duke
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Canada
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  19:47:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans i firmly do believe that kessel has a realistic shot to crack the 40 goal mark, why not ?? He scored 36 goals 3 seasons ago with a true 1st line center...how old was he then ?? 20 maybe..a snot nose boy who came close to pushing the 40 goal mark.

Any winger who cracks the 30 goal mark with Toronto`s ( last seasons ) center ice-man must be blessed for gods sake. Really...Tyler Bozak, and still scores 30.

Its hard to judge kessel`s abilities with his current linemates. Even Tim Conn. ain`t no bonafied 1st line center and do you think that Lupul is a bonafied 1st line winger ?? It will take 2 - 3 more season to really comment on kessel`s true goal scoring abilities...maybe by then he will have real 1st line team - mates.

Hopefully Kadri or Colbourne will blossom.....as of right now, Phil kessel is the ONLY true 1st line player the leafs have.

Why is it when people comment on this trade its always Boston`s future when speaking of Seguin and the others....What about Toronto`s future with kessel ?? It`s as though the leafs gave up the future for some old fart who only has 3 - 4 years left to play. How old is kessel ?? 23 maybe...For god sake this guy isn`t much older than Seguin...it isn`t all doom and gloom in leaf land with kessel you know.

One of the worst trades in history Beans ?? come on now...how can picking up a ( possibly ) career 30 plus goal scorer per season be a nightmare trade for a team ?? what are you talking about ??

Do you realize that Phil kessel has the ability to score 30 plus goals every season for maybe 12 - 15 years ?? and this will go down as one of the worst trade in NHL history...thats a joke Beans.

The Oilers trading Wayne Gretzky....now thats one of the worst trades in NHL history.
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Alex116
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Posted - 07/25/2011 :  22:27:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke.......I'm gonna ask you something i've asked a few times already (not lately mind you, but in the past when this debate has arisen).

Would you rather have Kessel or the guys the Bruins have now aquired due to the trade (Hamilton, Seguin, Knight)? I really don't think too many people, without bias either way, would pick Kessel in that deal. Ignore the Bruins cup win, ignore who plays centre for the Leafs, ignore everything and just answer me that question.

Your answer doesn't necessarily imply that that side won the trade either, so keep your mind open when answering. Seguin could be the next Daigle, Hamilton could be a bust too, we don't know. But at this point, it's really not fair to say who won this trade, therefore this post and all others like it, should be changed to "Who would you rather have moving forward, Kessel, or the others.....blah blah blah". Who won a trade when it involves young guys with bright futures (Kessel included) is just a guessing game really.
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Pasty7
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Canada
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Posted - 07/26/2011 :  04:54:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

.

Do you realize that Phil kessel has the ability to score 30 plus goals every season for maybe 12 - 15 years ?? and this will go down as one of the worst trade in NHL history...thats a joke Beans.




he could also fold and score 26 this seaosn 21 the next 15 then 12 then get sent to the AHL, then have to fight his way back to the NHL by signing 2way deals with teams on low budgets,, i'm not saying this will happen infact its very doubtfull but it has happend more than once to players with promise and even one whos scored 20 more goals than kessel has in each of their best years,

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Porkchop73
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Posted - 07/26/2011 :  06:20:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, I will try to help you out here because I just like the way you repeatedly try to make you point and you do not give up.

IMO there are two ways to look at this trade.
One from the the team perspective where one team was trying to fill a need. In this scenerio the Leafs desperately wanted a young player who without a doubt amongst the hockey world could put the puck in the net. And they wanted it immediately, they did not want to take a chance at the draft. Kessel was the only player available at the time that fit the bill and he had pretty much made it clear he was no longer happy in Boston. The Leafs gave up their next 2 first round picks and a second to fill that immediate void thinking that they would likely have given up close to the same if Kessel was UFA given the price of UFAs. The Leafs also knew that this was not going to fix the whole thing. They did not however think that one pick would be a second overall. Anyways given that scenerio, The Leafs got what they wanted, a goal scorer.
The second way to look at it is strictly from a player v player swap. In this scenerio the Leafs aquired a gifted, yet inconsistent goal scorer for 1 highly touted centremen (Seguin), a defensemen who is about 3 years from the NHL according to NHL scouting reports(Hamilton) and a player who has possible NHL talent but will need some time to develop it (Knight). From a player to player perspective the B's have done better then the Leafs for what they have gotten out of the trade. But I must admit everyone must wait to see the development of all three picks to truly see the total impact before declaring the trade a total landslide victory by the B's.

The ironic thing for the Leafs brass has to be that Seguin may be exactly the type of player they covet right now. A talented centremen to feed their scorer the puck.

So it depends on how you look at it. Do you look at from a team filling its need of a scorer, which Toronto successfully did. Or do you look at it from the just a player v player angle in which Boston was more successful.
You cannot however use cup wins as determining factor in this trade alone. Boston did an amazing job of growing some its talent and aquiring other immediate talent when the time was right. And they did it without tanking and collecting 1st overall picks and other top ten draft picks for consectuive years. To me that is todays model of building a cup team.



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